Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: DrDivine.5378

DrDivine.5378

Someone once told me that the Norn have unproportionate strength to their size and a single Norn can take out an entire warband. He also mentioned that in a part of the original story where every race was sending about 100 of their men to fight, the Norn only sent 10 due to being overpowered.

I’m kinda uneducated in the lore as I always picture the charr as the largest and strongest of the playable races, but it sounds like they may be second rate. Is this true?

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Charr definitly aren’t second rate but when it comes to raw strength they do come in second place.

Most of the specific examples will be from the books that give examples of notable norn figures performing feats of strength that would be impossible if their strength was only proportional to their size.

Im too tired to recall all details right now but here’s a few examples:

-Eir was a walking balista since her great strength allowed her to use the bow to such effectiveness

-a norn grabbed an adult charr by the scruff of her neck and her threw her across the room one handed.

-Eir carried a 500 lb stone staue on her back as if it was nothing.

-It took many many charr to force Jora from her homwstead

-When they ran into Jora, Ogden Stonehealer was worried about her killing himself, Vekk, the PC, and their 3-7 allies.

-The norn intro shpws a norn lifting a huge boulder over his head.

-When the charr invaded the norn a-net states that entire warbands couldn’t overcome the individual stength of the norn.

I’m sure some of the lore gurus here can give more examples or details.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I don’t think it was ever said that a single norn can take out an entire warband – warbands range from 5 to 20 highly tactical soldiers. Your friend was possibly mis-remembering the line from The Movement of the World which states: “Although it is certain the Charr could have destroyed the Norn resistance if they but turned their entire army—or even one full legion—to the cause, warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn.”

This doesn’t mean a single norn took out warbands and smaller raiding parties of charr, but that warbands and smaller raiding parties of charr could not beat the individualistic and strong norn.

Similarly, your friend is likely misremembering on that “armies of 100 and they sent 10 norn because of imbalance” – this likely comes from Eye of the North where the dwarves and Ebon Vanguard are using a good deal of their forces to combat the Destroyers, and Jora comes in with 4 norn in tow saying “I thought three would be enough but Olrun insisted” or some such. This is again credit not to being overpowered but because the norn are individualistic hunters – they are indeed strong, but before that they do not have armies, and they do not have armies not due to strength but due to culture – they’re too individualistic to form an army. As Jeff Grubb once said back in 2009, a room of norn cannot even agree on what to get for lunch, let alone form an army with discipline.

This isn’t to say the norn aren’t strong – they are, most definitely so. Though they aren’t quite as out of proportion as your friend seems to claim. He/she seems to be mistaking norn individualism for norn compensating for their strength compared to the weaker races.

And corrections on Dustfinger’s part:

Eir was straining at the end of their trip so it wasn’t “as if it was nothing” – though said trip is from her homestead through the asura gate in Hoelbrak to Rata Sum (direct path no LA stop) and from the Rata Sum gate to Snaff’s Lab (though the book describes Rata Sum in its original form before a redesign – same with Hoelbrak – which puts Snaff’s Lab in the bottom of the floating cube which with the redesign is now being mined out by golems still).

And it was a single warband (a larger one at that though) that forced out Jora and her family (and others who remained there) out of her family’s homestead. After the mission of reclaiming it in Eye of the North, you can see about a dozen generic norn in the homestead.

And a scene of norn strength missed: In Sea of Sorrows, two norn brothers together hurl charr one after another – including a really large one – high into the air to land on (and attack) a nearby ship.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

This doesn’t mean a single norn took out warbands and smaller raiding parties of charr, but that warbands and smaller raiding parties of charr could not beat the individualistic and strong norn.

It means one of two things. Either it means the individual strength of norn as individuals has been enough to beat some charr warbands or it means that the norn with their individual ways are better at group warfare than the charr are. I’d give the charr the benefit of the doubt since they train their whole lives for group combat.

But later the MotW does compares a warband to a lone hunter.

“the two races allowed one another passage and trade, while keeping their borders secure. Occasionally, a warband (or a Norn hunter) might cross the line into the other’s land, only to be cut down without prejudice…”

edit: Oo, I understand Gullik Oddsson has done some pretty notable stuff like killing a legion of ghosts amongst other things.

edit 2: On the warband/norn thing: Not to say that your understanding of the text is wrong at all Konig. a-net definitly means what you said. But extrapolating that text, if we consider that the norn are individualistic and that they did drive the norn charr back then I can see no other option besides those two that would fit with what we know of the norn and charr. So the charr being driven back means some of the individual norn would have had to have beaten some warbands or it means the norn were working as cohesive units to rival the cohesive units of the charr warbands.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: CHIPS.6018

CHIPS.6018

Part of the Norn culture is spreading legends and high-tales. I doubt a single Norn can take on a whole warband.

It is the same thing as saying 300 Spartans stopped a million Persians for a few days. They didn’t mention the thousands of Greek allies they got. And the Persians’ million manpower are highly exaggerated and it included many servants, camp followers and logistic personal that cannot actually fight.

Certain strong Norns may have beaten 3 or 4 Charrs in a fight.

Chipsy Chips(Necromancer) & Char Ashnoble(Thief)
The Order of Dii[Dii]-SBI→Kaineng→TC→JQ
Necro Encyclopedia-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAjJ1N6hxs

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

But later the MotW does compares a warband to a lone hunter.

“the two races allowed one another passage and trade, while keeping their borders secure. Occasionally, a warband (or a Norn hunter) might cross the line into the other’s land, only to be cut down without prejudice…”

But that’s not a comparison of strength, rather a comparison of how one side would “trespass” into the others’ territory – you wouldn’t find a lone charr going into the Far Shiverpeaks, but instead it’d be no less than a charr warband. At least in regards to something threatening the peace (as a lone charr wouldn’t really be viewed as a soldier of the charrpire since in most cases it’d be a Gladium or deserter).

On the warband/norn thing: Not to say that your understanding of the text is wrong at all Konig. a-net definitly means what you said. But extrapolating that text, if we consider that the norn are individualistic and that they did drive the norn charr back then I can see no other option besides those two that would fit with what we know of the norn and charr. So the charr being driven back means some of the individual norn would have had to have beaten some warbands or it means the norn were working as cohesive units to rival the cohesive units of the charr warbands.

I can think of one – which is how I interpret the line from the get go:

Individualistic society of norn with hunting parties killing off the charr raiding warbands.

Certain strong Norns may have beaten 3 or 4 Charrs in a fight.

If a pair of norn can hurl burly charr 20-ish feet into the air, and a group of four can handle a threat that takes a few dozen stone dwarves, then I think a single norn can beat more than 3 or 4 charr solo.

A single norn I hold no doubt could defeat a small warband (remember warbands can be as small kitten , though they tend to range more around 15 iirc). A larger warband though would probably take 2 or 3, maybe 4, norn.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Fafnir.5124

Fafnir.5124

I don’t think it was ever said that a single norn can take out an entire warband – warbands range from 5 to 20 highly tactical soldiers. Your friend was possibly mis-remembering the line from The Movement of the World which states: “Although it is certain the Charr could have destroyed the Norn resistance if they but turned their entire army—or even one full legion—to the cause, warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn.”

This doesn’t mean a single norn took out warbands and smaller raiding parties of charr, but that warbands and smaller raiding parties of charr could not beat the individualistic and strong norn.

Similarly, your friend is likely misremembering on that “armies of 100 and they sent 10 norn because of imbalance” – this likely comes from Eye of the North where the dwarves and Ebon Vanguard are using a good deal of their forces to combat the Destroyers, and Jora comes in with 4 norn in tow saying “I thought three would be enough but Olrun insisted” or some such. This is again credit not to being overpowered but because the norn are individualistic hunters – they are indeed strong, but before that they do not have armies, and they do not have armies not due to strength but due to culture – they’re too individualistic to form an army. As Jeff Grubb once said back in 2009, a room of norn cannot even agree on what to get for lunch, let alone form an army with discipline.

This isn’t to say the norn aren’t strong – they are, most definitely so. Though they aren’t quite as out of proportion as your friend seems to claim. He/she seems to be mistaking norn individualism for norn compensating for their strength compared to the weaker races.

And corrections on Dustfinger’s part:

Eir was straining at the end of their trip so it wasn’t “as if it was nothing” – though said trip is from her homestead through the asura gate in Hoelbrak to Rata Sum (direct path no LA stop) and from the Rata Sum gate to Snaff’s Lab (though the book describes Rata Sum in its original form before a redesign – same with Hoelbrak – which puts Snaff’s Lab in the bottom of the floating cube which with the redesign is now being mined out by golems still).

And it was a single warband (a larger one at that though) that forced out Jora and her family (and others who remained there) out of her family’s homestead. After the mission of reclaiming it in Eye of the North, you can see about a dozen generic norn in the homestead.

And a scene of norn strength missed: In Sea of Sorrows, two norn brothers together hurl charr one after another – including a really large one – high into the air to land on (and attack) a nearby ship.

I just want to point out that it depends on who the char decide to attack. The strength of a norn is individually based. Greatest achievement of a norn is to fight Jormag “the elder dragon” 1v1 to a draw. He even punched out his tooth and carried it from far shiver peaks to where it rests now.

So ya one norn can easily take out a warband but really depends who they are.

I want to point out that the norn of today are only a fraction as strong as the norn from GW1

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

According to the norn, that actually wasn’t a 1v1 fight (otherwise why the hell would a small group of norn be unable to kill an Elder Dragon?). Aesgir was aided by the Spirits of the Wild and by an ancient jotun scroll – and the norn skaalds claim that Jormag killed thousands of norn in battle.

Besides, to use Aesgir’s situation would be to compare the feats of Adelbern or Khilbron to that of all humans and say because they did such all humans should be able to – or for Rytlock with charr, or for Snaff with asura (by your argument, then every asura should be capable of resisting mental ED corruption and wrestling an ED’s mind). Aesgir, just like Destiny’s Edge and the PC, are special cases.

And to your last point: not at all. Thanks to mechanics and balance, allied NPCs of any race must be weaker than the PC to make the game actually challenging for the player and not just a case of “afk while letting the NPCs do all the work” and PC norn must be equal in power to a PC human/asura/sylvari/charr without exception for equal balance.

Lore wise, norn are still just as strong – if not stronger – than their ancestors. It varies, of course, based on individual though.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

But that’s not a comparison of strength, rather a comparison of how one side would “trespass” into the others’ territory – you wouldn’t find a lone charr going into the Far Shiverpeaks, but instead it’d be no less than a charr warband. At least in regards to something threatening the peace (as a lone charr wouldn’t really be viewed as a soldier of the charrpire since in most cases it’d be a Gladium or deserter).

We know they allowed the charr to pass through and trade so the number of “more than one” charr wouldn’t have been the main issue. The main issue would have been “maintaning the borders”. Norn aren’t organized enough to have a standing army of posts and watches along their borders. So I imagine that designated trade routes were what made charr travel acceptable while any stray warband of at least 3-4 would have been cut down without prejudice. And that cutting down would have been left up to any lone norn that just happened to come across them. (The very thing Ogden feared whne we first encounter norn). While larger warbands would have drawn the attention of greater numbers of norn who hear about a good challenge and go seeking their glory

I can think of one – which is how I interpret the line from the get go:

Individualistic society of norn with hunting parties killing off the charr raiding warbands.

That doesn’t clarify how the fights would have happened. But we do agree on how many charr a norn can reasonbly defeat on their own.

A single norn I hold no doubt could defeat a small warband (remember warbands can be as small kitten , though they tend to range more around 15 iirc). A larger warband though would probably take 2 or 3, maybe 4, norn.

This is what I see as well.

Part of the Norn culture is spreading legends and high-tales. I doubt a single Norn can take on a whole warband.

It is the same thing as saying 300 Spartans stopped a million Persians for a few days. They didn’t mention the thousands of Greek allies they got. And the Persians’ million manpower are highly exaggerated and it included many servants, camp followers and logistic personal that cannot actually fight.

Certain strong Norns may have beaten 3 or 4 Charrs in a fight.

I’ve seen this counter arguement before. Part of norn culture is spreading legends of their deeds. Which is why they have so many solo norn taking on incredible odds. Is there any evidence in lore that the norn aren’t generally truthful about their deeds?

I want to point out that the norn of today are only a fraction as strong as the norn from GW1

We should point out that the idea that this is in the lore rather than just being a game mechanic to to even out the playable races, is only a theory. edit: Konig addressed it.

edit 2: Another feat of strength i just remembered: The norn fought captured and drug the great wurm from the norn intro all the way to the moot for the Great hunt. The wurm was alive and it came from the cave wher the wurm chain happens near Kale’s lodge.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Fafnir.5124

Fafnir.5124

To be aided by the spirts of the wild is simply to change your form. Quotes from norn changing form. And the scroll is the equivalent of a weapon so how was the fight not 1v1.

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: DrDivine.5378

DrDivine.5378

According to the norn, that actually wasn’t a 1v1 fight (otherwise why the hell would a small group of norn be unable to kill an Elder Dragon?). Aesgir was aided by the Spirits of the Wild and by an ancient jotun scroll – and the norn skaalds claim that Jormag killed thousands of norn in battle.

Besides, to use Aesgir’s situation would be to compare the feats of Adelbern or Khilbron to that of all humans and say because they did such all humans should be able to – or for Rytlock with charr, or for Snaff with asura (by your argument, then every asura should be capable of resisting mental ED corruption and wrestling an ED’s mind). Aesgir, just like Destiny’s Edge and the PC, are special cases.

And to your last point: not at all. Thanks to mechanics and balance, allied NPCs of any race must be weaker than the PC to make the game actually challenging for the player and not just a case of “afk while letting the NPCs do all the work” and PC norn must be equal in power to a PC human/asura/sylvari/charr without exception for equal balance.

Lore wise, norn are still just as strong – if not stronger – than their ancestors. It varies, of course, based on individual though.

Yeah when I talk about Norn strength, I don’t really look at the actual game mechanics as evidence because there has to be an even playing field. I don’t expect Anet to make a playable race that can throw an entire charr in game lol, I’m talking more about the actual lore.

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

To be aided by the spirts of the wild is simply to change your form. Quotes from norn changing form. And the scroll is the equivalent of a weapon so how was the fight not 1v1.

Hardly. Their aid comes in many forms, and though the animal forms are viewed as blessings from the main Spirits of the Wild, it is not the only such blessing.

During the flight south, for example, four of the Spirits of the Wild fought Jormag directly – all four having been lost, one of which known dead the other three with situation unknown (these four being Owl, Ox, Wolverine, and Eagle – though Eagle doesn’t get mentioned in-game). And at the same time, four other Spirits of the Wild directly led Aesgir south to where he founded Hoelbrak (these four being Bear, Raven, Wolf, and Snow Leopard).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Fafnir.5124

Fafnir.5124

To be aided by the spirts of the wild is simply to change your form. Quotes from norn changing form. And the scroll is the equivalent of a weapon so how was the fight not 1v1.

Hardly. Their aid comes in many forms, and though the animal forms are viewed as blessings from the main Spirits of the Wild, it is not the only such blessing.

During the flight south, for example, four of the Spirits of the Wild fought Jormag directly – all four having been lost, one of which known dead the other three with situation unknown (these four being Owl, Ox, Wolverine, and Eagle – though Eagle doesn’t get mentioned in-game). And at the same time, four other Spirits of the Wild directly led Aesgir south to where he founded Hoelbrak (these four being Bear, Raven, Wolf, and Snow Leopard).

Wouldn’t we see the spirits Bear raven wolf and snow leopard physical form in hoelbrak then? Just saying a norn calling on the aid of spirts of the wild is directly tied with their transformations Bear guide my hand and such. The shrines being destroyed might have prevented norn from connecting with them and spirits having no physical embodiment I find it hard to believe that they can be killed. Magic draining dragons though<- and life = magic was mentioned. Norn do brag about accomplishments but norn never lie about them.

My generalization tough is that norn heroes are outliers that are ridiculously powerful and can fight toe to toe with a char legion though and only though there technology do char have a chance. norn would easily go 1v1 against dragon champions though most would fail. Would you deny credit to the 1 that succeeds?

Do you agree Scroll should be considered a weapon? Links success weren’t all put towards the master sword now.

Lore background of Aesgir is pritty weak though only one source to my knowlege the really should have done fractal about im even if it is just to find the scroll. Would have been alot better then thermanova. And more useful, Why look for answers when you can look for solutions?

Anet hasn’t developed lore in any extent mostly use living story to generate recent lore so wouldn’t hold my breath about it.

To note my first character was a norn warrior so I am bias which I’m trying to overcome by using game facts.

Are the Norn unrealistically strong?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Just because the spirits led the norn there doesn’t mean that they remained there. And it’s not like we have never seen Bear in her “physical” form (though this was in GW1). And I’m not saying their animal forms aren’t tied to their calling on the spirits’ aid – I’m just saying that’s not how the aid is limited to. Though the norn and Spirits of the Wild hold a more indirect-aid relationship than compared to, say, the humans and Six Gods; where humanity would ask for the Six to solve their problems, the norn just ask for advice or empowerment to help them solve their own problems.

As to a spirit dying – you really never looked into this topic, have you? The entire story around Owl is that she is DEAD. As gone and dead as one can be. Spirits can be destroyed – killed depends on your definition but that’s just semantics. We as players have done so all the time – moreso in GW1 but nonetheless.

And I don’t think there’d be any norn who’d say “Aesgir fought Jormag in 1v1” – they all say “Aesgir fought Jormag and knocked out its tooth and survived to later lead the norn south as guided by the four main Spirits of the Wild” (obviously not word for word).

And a single norn fighting toe to toe with a charr legion? That’s a full quarter of the charr population there – millions of charr. I doubt it.

And a norn fighting a dragon champion 1v1 is vastly different than a norn fighting an Elder Dragon which can shatter mountains and supposedly kill thousands of norn with a single sweep of its wing (according to one of the skaalds though I feel that’s exaggerated personally), or fighting 1 norn vs 1 charr legion. Though excluding the personal story it is supposedly impossible, given how Eir couldn’t take out the Dragonspawn (a dragon champion) even with Snaff and Zojja (and their two piloted golems and Garm); though add in Rytlock, Logan, and Caithe they were able to do such (barely).

And there’s FAR more sources for Aesgir’s story than just one source – I can think of three norn skaalds, the statue in Eir’s homestead, a Priory Scholar in Hoelbrak, and some ambient dialogue in Hoelbrak off the top of my head – just regarding his fight with Jormag, at that. Mind you most sources were interviews pre-release which is where we get that the Spirits of the Wild had personally backed him far more than they would any other norn.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.