Guild Wars 2

Obsidian.1328:

All that stuff up there just means that whosoever controls the narrative rights, regardless of anything else, determines what is and isn’t lore. By that rationale, anyone, and I mean anyone, who is given the keys to the Star Wars ‘verse could write a book about Leia and Chewie’s secret affair, and love child-Wookie, behind Hans back, who becomes a Sith Lord called Harry, that has a fetish for Nerf burgers and hair perms. And has pink fur.

And no one could raise a finger in protest.

That’s got to be the silliest excuse for literary authority I’ve ever heard.

That is exactly how it works, actually. George Lucas recently sold the rights of Star Wars to Disney. Know what the first thing they did was? Change the canon. They threw out all the extra source material that wasn’t the six movies and declared it a separate canon from their own so they had more room for creative freedom.

Now Disney is coming out with a comic series, a new cartoon series, and a new movie to begin their own canon for the Star Wars Universe. The true canon is the Disney canon. The old EU material is considered a separate thing not relevant to the official Star Wars Universe.

Ehecatl.9172:

Obsidian.1328:

All that stuff up there just means that whosoever controls the narrative rights, regardless of anything else, determines what is and isn’t lore. By that rationale, anyone, and I mean anyone, who is given the keys to the Star Wars ‘verse could write a book about Leia and Chewie’s secret affair, and love child-Wookie, behind Hans back, who becomes a Sith Lord called Harry, that has a fetish for Nerf burgers and hair perms. And has pink fur.

And no one could raise a finger in protest.

That’s got to be the silliest excuse for literary authority I’ve ever heard.

That is exactly how it works, actually. George Lucas recently sold the rights of Star Wars to Disney. Know what the first thing they did was? Change the canon. They threw out all the extra source material that wasn’t the six movies and declared it a separate canon from their own so they had more room for creative freedom.

Now Disney is coming out with a comic series, a new cartoon series, and a new movie to begin their own canon for the Star Wars Universe. The true canon is the Disney canon. The old EU material is considered a separate thing not relevant to the official Star Wars Universe.

Exactly. Here you would refer to it as pre and post Disney Star Wars. This is the canon for the official universe at least. But Jess Lebow didn’t even own the rights to Gw1 nor was he the sole writer, he was just the world designer.

This is how you maintain a storyline in the face of adaptations and fan fiction.

Obsidian.1328:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Obsidian.1328:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Obsidian.1328:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Is the Hobbit pro halfling centered…….. No kitten sherlock. Bilbo Baggins wrote the narrative and anything in it is from his perspective. You being an actual librarian seems a dubious claim now. This is not a mistake many librarians would make.

You can make your claims if and only if the voice in prophecies was omniscient. When I spoke to Gwen in the campaign did I also get to hear what was she was thinking?

Tolkien told the story mostly through the eyes of Bilbo, but there were also parts told through plain Jane narration. And no, Bilbo did not write The Hobbit the novel. He wrote many of the excerpts from the The Red Book…which he then used, along with personal experience, to write There and Back Again. It was an amusing literary device Tolkien used to add a level of authenticity to the story that is rare these days. And it was very good fun I must say.

I didn’t say I was a librarian, I said I worked in a library.

True about Gwen. But what’s that omniscient female voice-over I hear at the beginning of Prophecies? My mother??

The voice of GW was not entirely omniscient, nor was it entirely 1st person. It alternated depending on the situation.

Hobbits wrote the Red Book of Westmarch. Tolkien used the writings as a primary and only source. Any narrative written “objectively” based on Bilbo’s narrative would be as if Bilbo himself wrote it. Tolkien is more editor than he is writer, which he himself maintains. At worst he is the works translator. To consider him writing his own subjective opinion into the story dilutes the authenticity of the writing he claims.

As for Gwen, whether the narrator’s voice is your mother or not, the fact remains the entire narrative is not written in the third person omniscient point of view. Therefore any part of the story that is written in first person that concerns lore can be subjectively evaluated.

Right…

So Tolkien objectively wrote Bilbo’s narrative…which came from Tolkien’s own imagination. Then additionally objectively edited Bilbo’s(his) narrative to give us the novel. Are you for real??

Your second point…even if that’s true, does that mean any part that is not purely 1st-person can be objectively evaluated?

Do you really want to rob him of how his works should be interpreted, especially considering your admiring of Jess Lebow. A person who translates Beowulf did not write Beowulf. Tolkien portrays it as if he did not write the works, just translated and edited them together. That is him declaring that any subjectivity would be from either errors in translation or his source material. In a second edition he publishes he even declares that errors in the first edition was from Bilbo being under the influence of the one ring, and that he found “correct” versions published by Frodo. It is in its entirety prejudicial to hobbits and the opinions of a 20th century British male. Now one could say that Bilbo tried to be objective, but without access to Bilbo’s source material we don’t know. Which is why it was so easy for Tolkien to retcon events in his later works.

I didn’t say I admired Jess, I just defend his writing.

It’s great that ole J.R.R. wants his book portrayed as if Bilbo wrote it, he’s just trying to give the reader a good sense of immersion. But actually saying, in RL, that Bilbo wrote the story is…is…

…well let’s just say that I want to get myself some of that Longbottom Leaf he’s smokin’.

No one is saying that Bilbo is an actual person. We are saying however that the writer himself declared Bilbo to be an unreliable narrator. This fact also is hinted to in the writing. It is also assumed that the writing is therefore prejudicial. Which is again confirmed by Tolkien. Making this still a terrible example for you to be using.

’In kitten in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole and that means comfort.
I defy you to take all the races of Middle Earth as we know of them from lore, and place them in a hobbit hole. How comfortable is an elf in a structure with low ceilings.

Similarly Gw1 had bits of human perspective to it.

Canon is a dumb concept made up by corporations.

Stories are stories.

About the ‘clean german army’ stuff. I’m hardly saying or meaning to imply they DIDN’T do bad things or weren’t involved in any way shape or form. But there is always an element of the general getting the blame and the soldiers were following orders.

Anyway.

Charr in GW2:
Don’t capture enemies and force them into slavery.
Don’t eat captured or slain sentient foes.
Maintain the land and lakes, instead of burning it all down.
Actively include females into military, command, and support roles.
Allow non-humans into the Black Citadel, they are treated like everybody else and protected by the laws of the city. (Npc dialogue can be overheard where humans are surprised a Charr would step in to protect them.)
Are actively involved in forging peace with humans. In the past were on the road to getting peace with Ebonhawke before certain events happened.

Charr in GW1:
Actively captured enemies and used for slave labor.
Are known to have eaten prisoners and enemies.
Burnt and ruined the lands of Ascalon, showed no care about this matter. Enemy charr in EOTN caused a huge forest fire in the one corner of a map, and IIRC, the one battlefield was heavily damaged landscape wise.
Ban females from any role other then “Cook, farmer, wife.”, Don’t care at all about them really.
Look upon other races as lesser, as shown when Pyre gets his warband back together each one actively goes along the lines of “What, these humans are actually helping you and aren’t prisoners/slaves?”
Also had no development or improvement, hell, the STONE SUMMIT had more development then the Charr. Unsurprising given how the Charr were literally enemies for a tiny section of the story, once the heroes left Rin, Ascalon wasn’t a focus in any way until post final mission. Even that was one mission :P.

Now, what was the difference? Oh, Who was in charge in the two eras. Once the Flame Legion was removed from control, the Charr improved as a race drastically.

Lurinna.4306:

Canon is a dumb concept made up by corporations.

Stories are stories.

…………I really hope you are trolling.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Lurinna.4306:

Canon is a dumb concept made up by corporations.

Stories are stories.

…………I really hope you are trolling.

I’m not.

The concept of “Canon” didn’t really exist until the 1600s at the earliest, with the advent of the earliest forms of copyright, and even then didn’t become widespread until the 1800s in regard to fiction specifically.

Before then, it was basically completely normal for people to take stories created by other people and retcon them or make up a continuation as they pleased. This is basically how most “public domain” properties in the modern sense came to exist; Fairy tales, Arthurian legend, etc, were all made up by individuals and then iterated upon a million times in different directions by others.

However, unlike today, none of those extensions were considered any more valid then the others. For example, there were probably close to hundreds of different interpretations of the Lancelot+Arthur+Guinevere love triangle penned by different authors, but were any of them considered “Canon”, even the original? Well, no, they weren’t. They were all equally valid, because people recognized they were just stories. Made up stuff.

The modern trend of establishing a one-true-narrative for a fictional universe is an aberration of storytelling that came about as a result of modern capitalism, and the desire for individuals and corporations to keep the exclusive right to monetize their intellectual properties. It is unnatural and awkward and forced and leads to bizzare conversations like this where people are debating how one piece of made-up fluff is somehow more valid then some other piece of made-up fluff.

I don’t believe any iterations of Guild Wars are any more valid then any other. The original stand-alone story of prophecies is still valid, as is the extension brought about by Factions, and Nightfall after that, and, yes, Guild Wars 2. All of them are seperate works created by varyingly different people, and are equal.

Lurinna.4306:

I’m not.

The concept of “Canon” didn’t really exist until the 1600s at the earliest, with the advent of the earliest forms of copyright, and even then didn’t become widespread until the 1800s in regard to fiction specifically.

Before then, it was basically completely normal for people to take stories created by other people and retcon them or make up a continuation as they pleased. This is basically how most “public domain” properties in the modern sense came to exist; Fairy tales, Arthurian legend, etc, were all made up by individuals and then iterated upon a million times in different directions by others.

However, unlike today, none of those extensions were considered any more valid then the others. For example, there were probably close to hundreds of different interpretations of the Lancelot+Arthur+Guinevere love triangle penned by different authors, but were any of them considered “Canon”, even the original? Well, no, they weren’t. They were all equally valid, because people recognized they were just stories. Made up stuff.

The modern trend of establishing a one-true-narrative for a fictional universe is an aberration of storytelling that came about as a result of modern capitalism, and the desire for individuals and corporations to keep the exclusive right to monetize their intellectual properties. It is unnatural and awkward and forced and leads to bizzare conversations like this where people are debating how one piece of made-up fluff is somehow more valid then some other piece of made-up fluff.

I don’t believe any iterations of Guild Wars are any more valid then any other. The original stand-alone story of prophecies is still valid, as is the extension brought about by Factions, and Nightfall after that, and, yes, Guild Wars 2. All of them are seperate works created by varyingly different people, and are equal.

But you are wrong. You are not participating in some writing contest, you playing game owned by Anet, on Anet servers. “My game – my rules”.

Rednik.3809:

But you are wrong. You are not participating in some writing contest, you playing game owned by Anet, on Anet servers. “My game – my rules”.

That’s crazy. An author loses the authority to dictate how their writing is percieved from the moment it goes into the readers brain.

Ehecatl.9172:

Obsidian.1328:

All that stuff up there just means that whosoever controls the narrative rights, regardless of anything else, determines what is and isn’t lore. By that rationale, anyone, and I mean anyone, who is given the keys to the Star Wars ‘verse could write a book about Leia and Chewie’s secret affair, and love child-Wookie, behind Hans back, who becomes a Sith Lord called Harry, that has a fetish for Nerf burgers and hair perms. And has pink fur.

And no one could raise a finger in protest.

That’s got to be the silliest excuse for literary authority I’ve ever heard.

That is exactly how it works, actually. George Lucas recently sold the rights of Star Wars to Disney. Know what the first thing they did was? Change the canon. They threw out all the extra source material that wasn’t the six movies and declared it a separate canon from their own so they had more room for creative freedom.

Now Disney is coming out with a comic series, a new cartoon series, and a new movie to begin their own canon for the Star Wars Universe. The true canon is the Disney canon. The old EU material is considered a separate thing not relevant to the official Star Wars Universe.

…and that is why it is wrong.

Really buying in to what you are saying is akin to intellectual theft and censorship. It doesn’t matter who owns what rights or who calls the shots now, it’s simple honesty.

Either you personally don’t care about right and wrong, or the word “canon” is just another way to say “legal ownership” and shouldn’t be used in regards to any form of authenticity.

Daniel Handler.4816:

No one is saying that Bilbo is an actual person.

You did.

Well time to voice my opinion again…

About forgiveness: There is a fundamental difference between humanity and Charr.
Forgiving the Charr while they pride themselves in their atrocities is impossible in my opinion. As all of them pride themselves in their accomplishments of genocide and barbarism it is justified to see them all as the same. They themselves held all of humanity including civilians responsible for perceived insults from a thousand years ago. They themselves set the tone. They did not simply want to retake their “homeland” but exterminate humanity.

Why should the humans of Ascalon at the time of the Searing (or later) apologize for what their ancestors did a thousand years earlier to some bunch of monsters? Meaning driving them from land that was not theirs. Ascalon was not their homeland, it never was and had become human land after a thousand years. The Charr of today on the other hand willingly take responsibility for their ancestor’s actions.

That means the Charr of today are not innocent, they waged war against humanity till recently and even take pride in their ancestor’s actions. They have not earned forgiveness. I do not expect them to apologize. I do expect them to stop to gloat about genocide and all their barbaric acts. I do expect them to leave humanity in peace. I am sure they will fail at that in the long run because it is in their nature. Should the Elder Dragons all get defeated the Charr will fall back into their old habits and either wage war among the three Legions or look for an external foe. And who will that be?

About the Foefire: it was the last defiant act against the Charr who would have murdered every remaining human in Ascalon City including civilians. It spoiled their victory and simply put that is what they can’t stand. They react with demonizing Adelbern.
In no way was the Foefire an atrocity against the Charr who once more were the aggressor. The Foefire was excessive, yes, and i pity the ghosts, but no pity for the Charr from my part. You try to storm a city to murder everyone inside? There is the chance that you will die instead.

The ghosts deserve to find peace, but the Charr do not deserve to be freed from what they themselves caused. Their actions caused the Foefire. And if people want to blame humanity instead for having driven them out from land that was not theirs, well that wasn’t the start of it all. That was the Charr invading Grawl land. Which again leaves the Charr as the original cause of events. The Charr bear responsibility for the Searing, the Cataclysm, the invasion of Kryta, the Foefire and waging war against humanity till recently.

About the Charr sending a ship full of Ascalonian relics: one attempt at ending hostilities in 1250 years. The ship never made it due to some pirates capturing it, therefore of course the war between Charr and humanity went on (and that was only after the Charr had sent a ship to scout an invasion route to Lion’s Arch, which had failed to return due to Zhaitan’s rise. They could no longer invade Kryta over the sea.). Had the Charr been serious they could have tried again. Instead people blame humanity for going on with a war the Charr had kept going for over a thousand years, that’s something.

And please people do me a favour and leave comparisons to Germany out of this. I’m german and the idea of being compared to the Charr in any way is simply repulsive.

Kalavier.1097:

Now, what was the difference? Oh, Who was in charge in the two eras. Once the Flame Legion was removed from control, the Charr improved as a race drastically.

This is fallacious. You could say the same thing about modern Germany, it does not acquit Germany of the things that happened and country does not deny that it empowered the party to act. You can easily draw parallels as well to the former kitten officers that were acquitted of war crimes that went on to serve in major public offices in the cold war, yet it wouldn’t change what many did despite skipping any kind of punishment due to working with the Allies post-war. I mean, even the great “Anti-Flame Legion” Charr revolutionary Pyre Fierceshot had this to say about the war in Ascalon, “My father was a great soldier. Without him, Ascalon would not be the smoldering ruin it is today. I will honor his memory.” So seriously, this “but but MUH FLAME LEGION!” schtick is just a fallacious misdirection. All the Charr were giddy about the successes the Flame Legion brought them even if they didn’t like how they got the power to do so. Again, the whole point is how similar the handling of the Charr is to the “Clean Wehrmacht Myth” and how off putting that inherently is.

Frosch.7809:

About forgiveness: There is a fundamental difference between humanity and Charr.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Anya_Fairmind

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightbringer_Tybalt_Leftpaw

Char born outside the Legion

No. No, there isn’t. A difference, yes but not fundamental.
I think it’s just the question if you can let go of the past. The Ghosts of Ascalon certainly can’t.

Lurinna.4306:

That’s crazy. An author loses the authority to dictate how their writing is percieved from the moment it goes into the readers brain.

You not playing inside your brain, you playing on Anet servers. You free to have any headcanon, but game world is not your head.

Obsidian.1328:

Daniel Handler.4816:

No one is saying that Bilbo is an actual person.

You did.

Prove it.

Frosch.7809:

And please people do me a favour and leave comparisons to Germany out of this. I’m german and the idea of being compared to the Charr in any way is simply repulsive.

You must be new to the internet, there is much worse you can be compared to as german. :P (in context it’s also usually more an insult to the group we are compared to)

Besides I think the Charr are a pretty cool fantasy counterpart, even though they have more stereotypcal Prussian traits, then any other cultural group in Germany.

Lurinna.4306:

Rednik.3809:

But you are wrong. You are not participating in some writing contest, you playing game owned by Anet, on Anet servers. “My game – my rules”.

That’s crazy. An author loses the authority to dictate how their writing is percieved from the moment it goes into the readers brain.

This has nothing to do with canon though. Canon is the continuation of a story. It has always required the official stamp to the texts. For instance I can’t write another book of the Bible and have people believe me without appealing to the author. It’s why people find the Book of Mormon non-canon because they feel it lacks authenticity.

Canon is about the public, it is not about you. It is based solely on majority rules.

You want to separate the universes of all the games. Then go through each game and show me how the lore does not mesh and the source of the games is not authentic.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Obsidian.1328:

Daniel Handler.4816:

No one is saying that Bilbo is an actual person.

You did.

Prove it.

DH: “Hobbits wrote the Red Book of Westmarch. Tolkien used the writings as a primary and only source. Any narrative written “objectively” based on Bilbo’s narrative would be as if Bilbo himself wrote it.”

Last I checked, fictional characters can’t write real words… .

If you must, I suppose you could clarify your statements with something like, “Tolkien wrote that Bilbo wrote” or something similar. “Would be as if” is not the same as “did”.

Obsidian.1328:

…and that is why it is wrong.

Really buying in to what you are saying is akin to intellectual theft and censorship. It doesn’t matter who owns what rights or who calls the shots now, it’s simple honesty.

Either you personally don’t care about right and wrong, or the word “canon” is just another way to say “legal ownership” and shouldn’t be used in regards to any form of authenticity.

Right and wrong? Theft? No. George Lucas willingly sold the rights to his property to someone else for money. He willingly gave up creative control. There was no theft involved. When you as the writer choose to give up the legal rights to your intellectual property that is your choice and you know the consequences.

Now there are situations where a creator is forced to give up their creation to a larger company through legal loopholes and a more impressive army of lawyers, and those cases are tragic. However this is not one of those cases. There was no dirty dealings. It was a simple trade.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Lurinna.4306:

Rednik.3809:

But you are wrong. You are not participating in some writing contest, you playing game owned by Anet, on Anet servers. “My game – my rules”.

That’s crazy. An author loses the authority to dictate how their writing is percieved from the moment it goes into the readers brain.

This has nothing to do with canon though. Canon is the continuation of a story. It has always required the official stamp to the texts. For instance I can’t write another book of the Bible and have people believe me without appealing to the author. It’s why people find the Book of Mormon non-canon because they feel it lacks authenticity.

Canon is about the public, it is not about you. It is based solely on majority rules.

You want to separate the universes of all the games. Then go through each game and show me how the lore does not mesh and the source of the games is not authentic.

You’re not quite getting my meaning.

What I’m saying is that it’s silly to say that the newest aspects of Guild Wars, despite being created under fundamentally different conditions, by different people, and at different times, should be considered more valid simply by the fact that they’re newer.

Let me put it this way: I’m not debating that, for example, the Charr being multi-faceted is not true, or “canon”, in GW2. I’m rejecting the idea that them being that way in GW2 retroactively makes them that way in GW: Prophecies when it’s considered as a stand-alone entity, when it obviously wasn’t written with that in mind.

But that doesn’t mean I’m saying it isn’t the new creators right to change things for their story, either. Both the original narrative and updated one can exist both independently and seperately without either ceasing to be legitimate or cancelling the other out. All that means is that one can judge them seperately.

I find the idea of “canon” – That one has to be absolutely true, and the other lies, as if the Guild Wars universe is something that needs to objectively exist as one continuous thing and not just a made up story – To be sort of trite.

Rednik.3809:

You not playing inside your brain, you playing on Anet servers. You free to have any headcanon, but game world is not your head.

Except GW1 still exists…? You can still go and play it and have the universe not be updated.

Lurinna.4306:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Lurinna.4306:

Rednik.3809:

But you are wrong. You are not participating in some writing contest, you playing game owned by Anet, on Anet servers. “My game – my rules”.

That’s crazy. An author loses the authority to dictate how their writing is percieved from the moment it goes into the readers brain.

This has nothing to do with canon though. Canon is the continuation of a story. It has always required the official stamp to the texts. For instance I can’t write another book of the Bible and have people believe me without appealing to the author. It’s why people find the Book of Mormon non-canon because they feel it lacks authenticity.

Canon is about the public, it is not about you. It is based solely on majority rules.

You want to separate the universes of all the games. Then go through each game and show me how the lore does not mesh and the source of the games is not authentic.

You’re not quite getting my meaning.

What I’m saying is that it’s silly to say that the newest aspects of Guild Wars, despite being created under fundamentally different conditions, by different people, and at different times, should be considered more valid simply by the fact that they’re newer.

Let me put it this way: I’m not debating that, for example, the Charr being multi-faceted is not true, or “canon”, in GW2. I’m rejecting the idea that them being that way in GW2 retroactively makes them that way in GW: Prophecies when it’s considered as a stand-alone entity, when it obviously wasn’t written with that in mind.

But that doesn’t mean I’m saying it isn’t the new creators right to change things for their story, either. Both the original narrative and updated one can exist both independently and seperately without either ceasing to be legitimate or cancelling the other out. All that means is that one can judge them seperately.

I find the idea of “canon” – That one has to be absolutely true, and the other lies, as if the Guild Wars universe is something that needs to objectively exist as one continuous thing and not just a made up story – To be sort of trite.

Rednik.3809:

You not playing inside your brain, you playing on Anet servers. You free to have any headcanon, but game world is not your head.

Except GW1 still exists…? You can still go and play it and have the universe not be updated.

You are asking for the creation of separate universes for works that are supposed to be a continuous storyline. Please explain to me how the process of sequels works.

Absolutely no one had said that Gw1 is illegitimate or canceled out. What has been said is that in the guild wars universe, aspects of prophecies have been retconned out.

All guild wars games are part of that universe, the canon is creating a storyline that links them.

If you can create a storyline that fits all of the games into one story by all means do so. Explain to me how the Charr in Gw1 got to be the Charr in Gw2.

If your explanation breaks the fourth wall in any way it will not be considered a canon explanation.

Storytelling absolutely requires canon to function. I am welcome to you giving me an example to the contrary.

Edit: no one is saying that we are retconning gw1 because Gw2 is newer. We are saying that for aspects of gw1 and gw2 to exist in the same universe parts of gw1 have to go. The reverse can happen where parts of gw2 have to go because gw1 had something different. Are you saying that gw1 is right because it’s first? I would hope not.

I’m not saying either is right. I’m explicitly saying neither has to be right.

The world where GW1 happened and ended and that was the end and the world where things continued/were retconned onto GW2 can both exist and be equally valid.

It’s simple. The charr came back over a thousand years later (ask yourself how you would feel if some group of people knocked on your door saying it was their land a thousand years ago and you should get out).
They could not even do it by themselves, they had help from a human god.
They turned it into a barren, brown wasteland while their “charr homelands” were full of birds and bees and flowers and trees.

Yeah. No. Everytime i am doing something in ascalon i wish i could side with the separatists, ghosts or whoever to teach those overgrown furballs a lesson.

Lurinna.4306:

I’m not saying either is right. I’m explicitly saying neither has to be right.

The world where GW1 happened and ended and that was the end and the world where things continued/were retconned onto GW2 can both exist and be equally valid.

Please explain how this works with the concept of sequels. The reality of creating a storyline from many different bodies of work.

Frosch.7809:

That means the Charr of today are not innocent, they waged war against humanity till recently and even take pride in their ancestor’s actions. They have not earned forgiveness. I do not expect them to apologize. I do expect them to stop to gloat about genocide and all their barbaric acts. I do expect them to leave humanity in peace. I am sure they will fail at that in the long run because it is in their nature. Should the Elder Dragons all get defeated the Charr will fall back into their old habits and either wage war among the three Legions or look for an external foe. And who will that be?

I’m tired of that argument. “Oh, if no Elder Dragons the charr will INSTANTLY WAGE WAR ON EVERYBODY ELSE LIKE SOME GENERIC MONSTER RACE!”

About the Foefire: it was the last defiant act against the Charr who would have murdered every remaining human in Ascalon City including civilians. It spoiled their victory and simply put that is what they can’t stand. They react with demonizing Adelbern.
In no way was the Foefire an atrocity against the Charr who once more were the aggressor. The Foefire was excessive, yes, and i pity the ghosts, but no pity for the Charr from my part. You try to storm a city to murder everyone inside? There is the chance that you will die instead.

The ghosts deserve to find peace, but the Charr do not deserve to be freed from what they themselves caused. Their actions caused the Foefire. And if people want to blame humanity instead for having driven them out from land that was not theirs, well that wasn’t the start of it all. That was the Charr invading Grawl land. Which again leaves the Charr as the original cause of events. The Charr bear responsibility for the Searing, the Cataclysm, the invasion of Kryta, the Foefire and waging war against humanity till recently.

Have you seen Adelbern? He’s not a nice guy. In ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. He tried to murder a White Mantle ambassador. For what reason? BEING KRYTAN. He banished his own son for daring to suggest Ascalon was lost and they should actually go to lands capable of growing crops and supporting the population.

Also, the Foefire was an atrocity. Have you seen some of the random dialogue of the ghosts? Some of them were trying to flee the city, actually made it outside and away from the Charr forces, only to die horribly and turn into ghosts. It denies everybody the land.

A friend put the foefire like this. “It’s a magical tac-nuke.”

About the Charr sending a ship full of Ascalonian relics: one attempt at ending hostilities in 1250 years. The ship never made it due to some pirates capturing it, therefore of course the war between Charr and humanity went on (and that was only after the Charr had sent a ship to scout an invasion route to Lion’s Arch, which had failed to return due to Zhaitan’s rise. They could no longer invade Kryta over the sea.). Had the Charr been serious they could have tried again. Instead people blame humanity for going on with a war the Charr had kept going for over a thousand years, that’s something.

I said that pirates sunk the ship.

Also, you mention “If they were serious about it, THEY’D SEND ANOTHER!”. Send another ship full of priceless artifacts and relics (Who says they actually have tons more of those), on a route which explicitly got raided by pirates?

Also, It’s actually stated on Prince Edairs page that things went south when HE went to Ebonhawke.

Lostwingman.5034:

This is fallacious. You could say the same thing about modern Germany, it does not acquit Germany of the things that happened and country does not deny that it empowered the party to act. You can easily draw parallels as well to the former kitten officers that were acquitted of war crimes that went on to serve in major public offices in the cold war, yet it wouldn’t change what many did despite skipping any kind of punishment due to working with the Allies post-war. I mean, even the great “Anti-Flame Legion” Charr revolutionary Pyre Fierceshot had this to say about the war in Ascalon, “My father was a great soldier. Without him, Ascalon would not be the smoldering ruin it is today. I will honor his memory.” So seriously, this “but but MUH FLAME LEGION!” schtick is just a fallacious misdirection. All the Charr were giddy about the successes the Flame Legion brought them even if they didn’t like how they got the power to do so. Again, the whole point is how similar the handling of the Charr is to the “Clean Wehrmacht Myth” and how off putting that inherently is.

Pyre also purposeful kept himself away from the rebellion he started.

FACT: Charr leadership has changed.
FACT: Charr as of GW2, as a society, actually operate different in several ways, making them a better group then they were.

You cannot factually treat the charr as if they have never changed, and STILL behave like the charr from the prophecies era. Because it’s simply not true. Clinging to hate and rage and the past means nothing will improve ever.

To use ingame npc dialogue. “The searing is ANCIENT history. Move on.” How can there be hope of peace if there is nothing but clinging to ancient hatreds? Hell, look at what happened to Ascalon. IF Adelbern hadn’t clung to his hate so fiercely, THINGS probably would’ve been different!

I’d accept it if people went “Yeah, the Charr in the past did some very nasty things. Fortunately, modern Charr are better and have done less (if any) of that kitten.”

But what I see tends to strike me more as “NEVER FORGIVE, NEVER FORGET, ALL CHARR WILL AND ALWAYS BEEN EVIL BEASTS!”

Kalavier.1097:

To use ingame npc dialogue. “The searing is ANCIENT history. Move on.” How can there be hope of peace if there is nothing but clinging to ancient hatreds? Hell, look at what happened to Ascalon. IF Adelbern hadn’t clung to his hate so fiercely, THINGS probably would’ve been different!

Wow…the irony is strong in this one. It’s interesting that the Searing, which was 250 years ago and let the Charr nearly wipe humanity off the Tyrian continent, should be forgived and forgotten. Yet the Charr were perfectly in the right to wage war on humanity a thousand years after being driven out of a small section of their territory. Peaches.

Also, Adelbern never tried to kill the Krytan ambassador. Even though he was a White Mantle…and probably deserved it. Cite a source anywhere.

Obsidian.1328:

It’s interesting that the Searing, which was 250 years ago and let the Charr nearly wipe humanity off the Tyrian continent, should be forgived and forgotten.

And since when Ascalon = humanity? Also, serves them right.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s interesting that the Searing, which was 250 years ago and let the Charr nearly wipe humanity off the Tyrian continent, should be forgived and forgotten.

And since when Ascalon = humanity? Also, serves them right.

Humanity on the Tyrian continent. I’m not including Cantha and Elona here. The Searing opened the door for Orr’s annihilation and Kyrta barely escaped by letting the Mursaat enslave them. The Charr certainly tried, read your history.

Kalavier.1097:

But what I see tends to strike me more as “NEVER FORGIVE, NEVER FORGET, ALL CHARR WILL AND ALWAYS BEEN EVIL BEASTS!”

So much this. Its not really a problem in the lore, but when it carries over to their actions and how people treat others(in a video game)? then its a problem, for me at least.

And again everyone misses that fact that its been 250 years, thats a long time for a race to change, and the Charr have changed. Majorly too.

Obsidian.1328:

The Searing opened the door for Orr’s annihilation and Kyrta barely escaped by letting the Mursaat enslave them. The Charr certainly tried, read your history.

Last time when I read it, Orr was annihilated by humans, remains of Ascalon was wiped out by their own king and Kryta was barely touched by invasion. Oh, I forgot, Kryta suffered very heavy losses in that war, entire Lions Arch was sunk… by Orr humans.
So much for evil Charr.

Rednik.3809:

Last time when I read it, Orr was annihilated by humans, remains of Ascalon was wiped out by their own king and Kryta was barely touched by invasion. Oh, I forgot, Kryta suffered very heavy losses in that war, entire Lions Arch was sunk… by Orr humans.
So much for evil Charr.

To be fair to obsidian, Orr was sunk by humans(by the Vizier, being controlled by Abaddon, the same god who helped the charr) When the Charr showed up on their doorstep and laid siege to their city. That is when Orr was sunk. The rest though is so true. But those Orrian Humans where dead and being controlled by Zhaitan when LA was sunk. Which brings me back to one of my points: We have bigger things to worry about than a race that has changed. We have dragons to stop, dragons that dont care who they attack.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

To use ingame npc dialogue. “The searing is ANCIENT history. Move on.” How can there be hope of peace if there is nothing but clinging to ancient hatreds? Hell, look at what happened to Ascalon. IF Adelbern hadn’t clung to his hate so fiercely, THINGS probably would’ve been different!

Wow…the irony is strong in this one. It’s interesting that the Searing, which was 250 years ago and let the Charr nearly wipe humanity off the Tyrian continent, should be forgived and forgotten. Yet the Charr were perfectly in the right to wage war on humanity a thousand years after being driven out of a small section of their territory. Peaches.

Also, Adelbern never tried to kill the Krytan ambassador. Even though he was a White Mantle…and probably deserved it. Cite a source anywhere.

The way Rurik reacted, and what Adelbern said…

King Adelbern: “Stand aside, Rurik.”
Prince Rurik: “Before you do this, Father, think about your motives.”
King Adelbern: “That Krytan is kitten on the underbelly of Ascalon. I need no further motive than that to cut him away before he does more harm.”
Prince Rurik: “Ambassador Zain is here to offer us aid. He extends his hand in friendship.”
King Adelbern: “No Krytan will ever be a friend of Ascalon.”
Prince Rurik: “Do not be foolish, old man! If you have not noticed, Ascalon is in no position to turn away help, even from those who were once our enemies.”
King Adelbern: “I grow tired of this, Rurik. Step aside this instant! We are here to arrest Ambassador Zain and try him as a traitor of this nation.”
Prince Rurik: “I will not allow you to jeopardize the fate of Ascalon because of your petty jealousy! If you intend to arrest the ambassador, then you will first have to go through me.”
Prince Rurik: “Go home father. Let me deal with this.”
King Adelbern: “This is a mistake, Rurik. Mark my words. This Krytan will be the death of us all.”
King Adelbern: “Guards. With me.”

You know in a setting like gw1, being tried as a traitor typically means death? Adelbern was going to try somebody as being a traitor to Ascalon, WHO WASN’T EVEN ONE OF HIS SUBJECTS.

I also said nothing about the searing being forgiven or Forgotten. Simply to not make that the focus.

Dante.1763:

Kalavier.1097:

But what I see tends to strike me more as “NEVER FORGIVE, NEVER FORGET, ALL CHARR WILL AND ALWAYS BEEN EVIL BEASTS!”

So much this. Its not really a problem in the lore, but when it carries over to their actions and how people treat others(in a video game)? then its a problem, for me at least.

And again everyone misses that fact that its been 250 years, thats a long time for a race to change, and the Charr have changed. Majorly too.

I’m actually going to put this question out, hopefully you can support it Dante.

“What have the current charr government/leadership (and/or RECENT leadership, as in the people directly before Smodur and his fellows), done that warrents such intense, fierce hate? What has the current charr nation (Iron, Blood, Ash) done that is SO HORRIBLE?”

Obsidian.1328:

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s interesting that the Searing, which was 250 years ago and let the Charr nearly wipe humanity off the Tyrian continent, should be forgived and forgotten.

And since when Ascalon = humanity? Also, serves them right.

Humanity on the Tyrian continent. I’m not including Cantha and Elona here. The Searing opened the door for Orr’s annihilation and Kyrta barely escaped by letting the Mursaat enslave them. The Charr certainly tried, read your history.

Orr destroyed themselves, and Kryta, arguably, could’ve defended itself if the King hadn’t kittening RAN AWAY with all his money, leaving the nation utterly leaderless and confused in a dire time.

The Charr 250+ years ago tried. Are the legions the EXACT SAME now? See above question.

edit: Now, true, with GW2 it was shown the Charr attack force had taken searing cauldrens with them and were intended to Sear Orr, but that’s still an attack 250 years ago, and all the charr involved died.

Kalavier.1097:

I’m actually going to put this question out, hopefully you can support it Dante.

“What have the current charr government/leadership (and/or RECENT leadership, as in the people directly before Smodur and his fellows), done that warrents such intense, fierce hate? What has the current charr nation (Iron, Blood, Ash) done that is SO HORRIBLE?”

Well I had a huge responses typed out for this, but when i clicked submit, it decided i needed to log in again and didnt save what id typed. Long and short answer time.

Iron and Ash are working together to get a peace treaty signed with Kryta and Ebonhawk. Both of their Imperators realize that its more important for them to work with the humans than it is to continue a pointless siege on Ebonhawk. Blood is going along with it because they cant face Iron and Ash, so they are kept in check regardless of what they want. Flame legion is basically nothing. Hell after the Charr took Ascalon back they stopped advancing, settled down, and turned around to deal with their internal issues, see flame legion. The Charr of today are much worldly than the Charr of 250 years ago, IMO. They Recognize that their race has done horrible things in the past, but they also recognize that they need to move on from those things.

The Vizier wouldn’t have read the scroll that caused the Cataclysm…had the Charr not been on their doorstep about to wipe them all out. Saying the Charr didn’t cause Orr’s demise is like saying the Allies didn’t cause Germany losing the war because Hitler killed himself in Berlin before the Allies could get there. If Bob points a gun at me and I shoot myself first, is Bob innocent?

Ascalon survived the Searing, and didn’t “lose” until GW2 was in development. So you can’t really argue that Ascalon lost in GW1 when they didn’t until GW2 development. In other words, had GW2 never been made, human Ascalon would still be there.

Rednik LA was sunk by Zhaitan’s rising, not by Orr’s sinking.

Kryta would have lost to the Charr with or without its king. The whole point of the Mursaat being there was that they saved Kryta, at the cost of complete servitude and sacrificing the Krytan “Chosen” populace on the Bloodstones. If you can argue that they “could” have still won if the king had stayed, then I can argue that Orr “could” have won had Khilbron not blown them up. The narrative certainly doesn’t support either of those notions, but what the hey.

Kalavier Ah, so you’re assuming that after Rurik left with the PC, he went ahead and tried and executed Zain anyway? Can you find anything to that effect? It’s also interesting that Zain offers Mantle help, but only if you “place your faith in the Unseen Ones.” I guess Rurik wasn’t all that devoted to the Five. Adelbern dodged a real bullet there huh. He also was right to stay and fight, since we all know Ascalon was written to have won the war before GW2 was in development. Perhaps this Adelbern fellow didn’t get a very fair shake with the new writers…

No, I said he tried. I never said he succeeded.

I’m calling his attempt to match out and try his as a traitor (that Rurik stopped) as an ATTEMPT.

Hell, He’s heavily implied to have imprisoned or Killed the Shining Blade/Kryta ambassador sent to get Ebon Vanguard/Ascalon help against the White Mantle (with promise of Krytan aid to Ascalon as soon as that was over).

Obsidian.1328:

The Vizier wouldn’t have read the scroll that caused the Cataclysm…had the Charr not been on their doorstep about to wipe them all out. Saying the Charr didn’t cause Orr’s demise is like saying the Allies didn’t cause Germany losing the war because Hitler killed himself in Berlin before the Allies could get there. If Bob points a gun at me and I shoot myself first, is Bob innocent?

Bob will be accused for threatening you. Turning conventional war into the total genocide of everything around is entirely Orr humans deed.

Obsidian.1328:

Ascalon survived the Searing, and didn’t “lose” until GW2 was in development. So you can’t really argue that Ascalon lost in GW1 when they didn’t until GW2 development. In other words, had GW2 never been made, human Ascalon would still be there.

Ascalon wasn’t completely destroyed by Searing, but I can’t remember them successfully pushing invasion back to north. They just won some time, thanks to heroes.

Obsidian.1328:

LA was sunk by Zhaitan’s rising, not by Orr’s sinking.

That was consequences of previous events. You build your greatest magic city on top of sleeping Elder Dragon and then blow it up by some ultimate spell. Gee, I wonder why he awakened.

Obsidian.1328:

Kryta would have lost to the Charr with or without its king.

Because Mursaat and their marionettes said so? Ascalon was able to fight back while being ravaged by Searing, but Kryta, oh, Kryta was clearly unable to defend themselves without their new glorious overlords.

Obsidian.1328:

The Vizier wouldn’t have read the scroll that caused the Cataclysm…had the Charr not been on their doorstep about to wipe them all out. Saying the Charr didn’t cause Orr’s demise is like saying the Allies didn’t cause Germany losing the war because Hitler killed himself in Berlin before the Allies could get there. If Bob points a gun at me and I shoot myself first, is Bob innocent?

Ascalon survived the Searing, and didn’t “lose” until GW2 was in development. So you can’t really argue that Ascalon lost in GW1 when they didn’t until GW2 development. In other words, had GW2 never been made, human Ascalon would still be there.

Rednik LA was sunk by Zhaitan’s rising, not by Orr’s sinking.

Kryta would have lost to the Charr with or without its king. The whole point of the Mursaat being there was that they saved Kryta, at the cost of complete servitude and sacrificing the Krytan “Chosen” populace on the Bloodstones. If you can argue that they “could” have still won if the king had stayed, then I can argue that Orr “could” have won had Khilbron not blown them up. The narrative certainly doesn’t support either of those notions, but what the hey.

Kalavier Ah, so you’re assuming that after Rurik left with the PC, he went ahead and tried and executed Zain anyway? Can you find anything to that effect? It’s also interesting that Zain offers Mantle help, but only if you “place your faith in the Unseen Ones.” I guess Rurik wasn’t all that devoted to the Five. Adelbern dodged a real bullet there huh. He also was right to stay and fight, since we all know Ascalon was written to have won the war before GW2 was in development. Perhaps this Adelbern fellow didn’t get a very fair shake with the new writers…

You put too much faith in causality. People chose their actions. The Japanese people are not responsible for the use of an atomic weapon. A human caused the cataclysm. Just like America dropped the bomb on Japan. The causes are only slightly relevant to what comes after.

Obsidian.1328:

The Vizier wouldn’t have read the scroll that caused the Cataclysm…had the Charr not been on their doorstep about to wipe them all out. Saying the Charr didn’t cause Orr’s demise is like saying the Allies didn’t cause Germany losing the war because Hitler killed himself in Berlin before the Allies could get there. If Bob points a gun at me and I shoot myself first, is Bob innocent?

Ascalon survived the Searing, and didn’t “lose” until GW2 was in development. So you can’t really argue that Ascalon lost in GW1 when they didn’t until GW2 development. In other words, had GW2 never been made, human Ascalon would still be there.

Rednik LA was sunk by Zhaitan’s rising, not by Orr’s sinking.

Kryta would have lost to the Charr with or without its king. The whole point of the Mursaat being there was that they saved Kryta, at the cost of complete servitude and sacrificing the Krytan “Chosen” populace on the Bloodstones. If you can argue that they “could” have still won if the king had stayed, then I can argue that Orr “could” have won had Khilbron not blown them up. The narrative certainly doesn’t support either of those notions, but what the hey.

Kalavier Ah, so you’re assuming that after Rurik left with the PC, he went ahead and tried and executed Zain anyway? Can you find anything to that effect? It’s also interesting that Zain offers Mantle help, but only if you “place your faith in the Unseen Ones.” I guess Rurik wasn’t all that devoted to the Five. Adelbern dodged a real bullet there huh. He also was right to stay and fight, since we all know Ascalon was written to have won the war before GW2 was in development. Perhaps this Adelbern fellow didn’t get a very fair shake with the new writers…

You put too much faith in causality. People chose their actions. The Japanese people are not responsible for the use of an atomic weapon. A human caused the cataclysm. Just like America dropped the bomb on Japan. The causes are only slightly relevant to what comes after.

Kalavier.1097:

No, I said he tried. I never said he succeeded.

I’m calling his attempt to match out and try his as a traitor (that Rurik stopped) as an ATTEMPT.

Hell, He’s heavily implied to have imprisoned or Killed the Shining Blade/Kryta ambassador sent to get Ebon Vanguard/Ascalon help against the White Mantle (with promise of Krytan aid to Ascalon as soon as that was over).

Adelbern killed Evennia?? News to me.

Rednik

Entirely Khilbron’s deed. It’s extremely obvious ANet2 used the Cataclysm scenario as a blueprint for the Foefire. The parallels are astounding. I wouldn’t be surprised if they somehow make Abaddon responsible too…even though he’s supposed to be gone.

It was 150 years between the Cataclysm and the rising of Orr, that dragon sleeps heavier than the town drunk! I’m sure there’s some technobabble reason the Asura will discover relating to some Draconian Nocturne experiment.

Oh I see, so the Krytans could have withstood a “Searing-level” attack, but the Ascalons couldn’t? Like you said, it was just a matter of time in Ascalon right? Why would Kryta be different?

Daniel Handler.4816:

The causes are only slightly relevant to what comes after.

Said no historian ever. The why is always important.

Obsidian.1328:

Ascalon survived the Searing, and didn’t “lose” until GW2 was in development. So you can’t really argue that Ascalon lost in GW1 when they didn’t until GW2 development. In other words, had GW2 never been made, human Ascalon would still be there.

Ascalon was a wasteland. The fact it healed as much as it has in GW2 is amazing. Tell me, where would they grow crops? Get water? The land, as it was then, wasn’t able to support a population effectively.

That was kinda one of the KEY PARTS OF RURIK’S FOLLOWERS LEAVING. Rurik felt that Ascalon was ruined, and there was no hope there for survival, long term or short. And for the most part, his feelings were good before that. Instead of rivers and lakes, they had pools of Tar. Instead of fertile grasslands and forests, they had burnt and ruined land.

If Adelbern hadn’t wiped out the rest of Ascalon bar Ebonhawke, and the Charr hadn’t continue their assaults, starvation would’ve likely claimed much of the population. I can’t see how anybody could look at post searing Ascalon and go “Yeah, I’d see a nation surviving there.”

Obsidian.1328:

Adelbern killed Evennia?? News to me.

“The clouds of war gather on the horizon. The hour of the storm is upon us, yet Adelbern still refuses to give me audience. Old fool would rather kill us all than accept help.”

Her dialogue in Old Ascalon.

She went missing from Old Ascalon after spending a while there trying to get help (and give help). Given how Adelbern acted toward the LAST Ambassador to come around, and his feelings toward Krytans in general… You REALLY think Adelbern wasn’t behind her suddenly disappearing in some manner?

It literally fits his mental state and personality to be responsible for murdering (or imprisoning and leaving to rot in a cell) Evennia.

Obsidian.1328:

Entirely Khilbron’s deed. It’s extremely obvious ANet2 used the Cataclysm scenario as a blueprint for the Foefire. The parallels are astounding. I wouldn’t be surprised if they somehow make Abaddon responsible too…even though he’s supposed to be gone.

And Khilbron was an evil charr or rightful Vizier of Orr?

Obsidian.1328:

It was 150 years between the Cataclysm and the rising of Orr, that dragon sleeps heavier than the town drunk!

After thousands years of sleep this is kinda expected.

Obsidian.1328:

Oh I see, so the Krytans could have withstood a “Searing-level” attack, but the Ascalons couldn’t? Like you said, it was just a matter of time in Ascalon right? Why would Kryta be different?

Kryta was struck by second Searing? I’m missed something?

Obsidian.1328:

Kryta would have lost to the Charr with or without its king. The whole point of the Mursaat being there was that they saved Kryta, at the cost of complete servitude and sacrificing the Krytan “Chosen” populace on the Bloodstones. If you can argue that they “could” have still won if the king had stayed, then I can argue that Orr “could” have won had Khilbron not blown them up. The narrative certainly doesn’t support either of those notions, but what the hey.

Considering how it is, IIRC, implied that Kryta had a full army that was at least on par with Ascalon’s and Orr’s, Yes, I think they would’ve actually been able to survive if the King hadn’t ran away and left them leaderless and scared.

He also was right to stay and fight, since we all know Ascalon was written to have won the war before GW2 was in development. Perhaps this Adelbern fellow didn’t get a very fair shake with the new writers…

Actually, coming back to this, care to provide this quote that Ascalon ‘won’ and was free of attacking Charr and other threats? Because last I checked, THEY NEVER, EVER say a thing about that. At best, I think Adelbern mentions being left with a ruined kingdom.

But considering how throughout Prophecies after you leave Ascalon, it has no meaning to the plot (until a titan lord appears there and you go to stop it), I fail to see how we stopped the Charr army that was threatening it even after the battle of Rin. We do nothing to clear out the rest of the Charr or any other leadership elements.

Prince Rurik: “Trumpets! The king must be near. The fall of Rin will have darkened his heart. Hail King Adelbern!”
King Adelbern: “Rise, my son. you have done well. The discovery of Stormcaller is surely a sign of victory.”
Prince Rurik: “It is a powerful weapon, but I fear not powerful enough. The Charr have amassed an army of many thousands.”
King Adelbern: “You overestimate these beasts, Rurik. Do not be afraid.”
Prince Rurik: “I am not afraid, father. I have seen them in battle. Rin has been destroyed! It would be wise to escape while we can. We should make for Kryta and rebuild our strength. Not wait here for death.”
King Adelbern: “I will never allow Ascalons to live in the shadow of the Krytans! It is Rin that will be rebuilt. And you will learn your place.”
Prince Rurik: “You have grown proud, Adelbern of Ascalon…proud and foolish!”
King Adelbern: “You would dare call your king a fool? I will hear no more. I banish you from Ascalon! You are no longer my prince, and you are no longer my son!”
Prince Rurik: “People of Rin! Your king will lead you to death. If you wish to see better days, if you wish to live, then leave the beasts behind and follow me over the Shiverpeaks. We make for Kryta and a new life, free of the Charr.”

So tell me, what happens to the “Charr army of many thousands”? Because we sure as hell didn’t do a THING about them.

Kalavier.1097:

Ascalon was a wasteland. The fact it healed as much as it has in GW2 is amazing. Tell me, where would they grow crops? Get water? The land, as it was then, wasn’t able to support a population effectively.

That was kinda one of the KEY PARTS OF RURIK’S FOLLOWERS LEAVING. Rurik felt that Ascalon was ruined, and there was no hope there for survival, long term or short. And for the most part, his feelings were good before that. Instead of rivers and lakes, they had pools of Tar. Instead of fertile grasslands and forests, they had burnt and ruined land.

If Adelbern hadn’t wiped out the rest of Ascalon bar Ebonhawke, and the Charr hadn’t continue their assaults, starvation would’ve likely claimed much of the population. I can’t see how anybody could look at post searing Ascalon and go “Yeah, I’d see a nation surviving there.”

Every “nation” had territory not included on the explorable map. The Ascalon basin is a big place, there’s a lot of it we don’t get to see. Not to mention trade and diplomacy resumed after the Charr confict…as per Empire Divided says. Where did the Charr grow crops and get water? Food/water logistics and support was not exactly high on the list for ANet’s simulation of Tyria, it would be silly to assume that. I mean, where did Cantha get all that food to feed KC? I remember only seeing a few farm fields in the whole of Cantha…I guess that means they are starved. Really dude?

“The clouds of war gather on the horizon. The hour of the storm is upon us, yet Adelbern still refuses to give me audience. Old fool would rather kill us all than accept help.”

Her dialogue in Old Ascalon.

She went missing from Old Ascalon after spending a while there trying to get help (and give help). Given how Adelbern acted toward the LAST Ambassador to come around, and his feelings toward Krytans in general… You REALLY think Adelbern wasn’t behind her suddenly disappearing in some manner?

It literally fits his mental state and personality to be responsible for murdering (or imprisoning and leaving to rot in a cell) Evennia.

It fits his mental state for GW2 yes. That dialogue was written post EotN, which is a prelude for GW2, ANet has even said so. Do you really think they weren’t already trying to set up the Foefire scenario by further modifying Adelbern’s state of mind?

Rednik.3809:

And Khilbron was an evil charr or rightful Vizier of Orr?

Doesn’t matter, you said all. One human brought down Orr, no more.

After thousands years of sleep this is kinda expected.

No it’s not. Scarlet woke a dragon immediately with one spike of magic, a whole continent falling on a dragon wouldn’t do it??

Kryta was struck by a second Searing? I’m missed something?

Searing-level =/= Searing itself. So the Searing and invasion couldn’t quite defeat Ascalon, but the regular Charr army defeated the full might of Orr(which was at the very least the equal of Kryta or Ascalon) in twelve hours flat. You think it’s logical to assume Kryta wouldn’t have at least suffered the same fate as Ascalon? Remember, one of the only reasons Ascalon survived was that the bulk of the Charr army moved on to Orr or Kryta because they thought Ascalon was defeated.

Kalavier.1097:

But considering how throughout Prophecies after you leave Ascalon, it has no meaning to the plot (until a titan lord appears there and you go to stop it), I fail to see how we stopped the Charr army that was threatening it even after the battle of Rin. We do nothing to clear out the rest of the Charr or any other leadership elements.

The Titan’s were there for years before that “in the lore,” there are wicker effigies of them north of the wall even in pre-searing. There are also two Glint quests where you help Ascalon both kill the remaining Charr leadership, and kill their Titan lords.

And if you think that Ascalon was reduced to only the number of people you could physically see in the game, you’re doing it wrong. By that rationale, there were less than a hundred Charr left in all of Ascalon. Don’t confuse “in-game lore” with the limits of the game mechanics.

Obsidian.1328:

Every “nation” had territory not included on the explorable map. The Ascalon basin is a big place, there’s a lot of it we don’t get to see. Not to mention trade and diplomacy resumed after the Charr confict…as per Empire Divided says. Where did the Charr grow crops and get water? Food/water logistics and support was not exactly high on the list for ANet’s simulation of Tyria, it would be silly to assume that. I mean, where did Cantha get all that food to feed KC? I remember only seeing a few farm fields in the whole of Cantha…I guess that means they are starved. Really dude?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Pre-Searing_map_clean.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Ascalon_clean.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Tyria_clean_map_2.jpg

You are saying that is not a wasteland?

Also, Cantha obviously had many fertile areas, as well as trade. It also hadn’t been NUKED which turned most water sources into tar and simply destroyed the farms and forests.
Again, Rurik obviously felt staying in Ascalon was a death wish. The area was RUINED.

“The clouds of war gather on the horizon. The hour of the storm is upon us, yet Adelbern still refuses to give me audience. Old fool would rather kill us all than accept help.”

Her dialogue in Old Ascalon.

She went missing from Old Ascalon after spending a while there trying to get help (and give help). Given how Adelbern acted toward the LAST Ambassador to come around, and his feelings toward Krytans in general… You REALLY think Adelbern wasn’t behind her suddenly disappearing in some manner?

It literally fits his mental state and personality to be responsible for murdering (or imprisoning and leaving to rot in a cell) Evennia.

It fits his mental state for GW2 yes. That dialogue was written post EotN, which is a prelude for GW2, ANet has even said so. Do you really think they weren’t already trying to set up the Foefire scenario by further modifying Adelbern’s state of mind?

Again, denying that intro quest to post-searing with the White Mantle ambassador who Adelbern was ready to arrest and put under trial FOR TREASON AGAINST ASCALON. Yeah, how can he be a traitor if he isn’t even one of Adelberns subjects?

Adelbern who banished Rurik for daring to suggest going to the Krytans.

You really think he’s not going to do something stupid concerning the KRYTAN AMBASSADOR sitting outside of Ascalon city asking for Help, with the offer of help afterwards? When said Ambassador stated he’d rather them all to die then to accept any help?

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

But considering how throughout Prophecies after you leave Ascalon, it has no meaning to the plot (until a titan lord appears there and you go to stop it), I fail to see how we stopped the Charr army that was threatening it even after the battle of Rin. We do nothing to clear out the rest of the Charr or any other leadership elements.

The Titan’s were there for years before that “in the lore,” there are wicker effigies of them north of the wall even in pre-searing. There are also two Glint quests where you help Ascalon both kill the remaining Charr leadership, and kill their Titan lords.

And if you think that Ascalon was reduced to only the number of people you could physically see in the game, you’re doing it wrong. By that rationale, there were less than a hundred Charr left in all of Ascalon. Don’t confuse “in-game lore” with the limits of the game mechanics.

We kill the Titan Lords the Lich sent. We don’t kill any named charr leadership in that titan quest.

The end has Glint state “ADELBERN is safe.” Not Ascalon. She states Adelbern’s will is one of the ONLY things keeping Ascalon alive. That Ascalon’s walls and armies have withered since Rurik left.

Again, Rurik states the charr have armies of thousands (not seen ingame), yet we do nothing about this invasion force. Glint states the armies and walls have withered since we left Ascalon, implying said force has been wearing them down.

I’m not some idiot who takes game mechanics as canon, but tell me, EXPLICITLY, where it states that Ascalon ‘won the war’ at the end of Prophecies. Because all I see is “Ascalon is continuing to barely hang on, a massive shadow of it’s former strength and glory.”