Guild Wars 2

Asuras are presented in this game to be the most intelligent race and the more skilled in magic use, even being able to create technologies based on magic. Yet, it was the humas who got magic as a gift from the gods in the first place. Shouldn’t be the humans the best mages, considering they have a deeper magic tradition and also magic was meant for them in the first place?

The Asura are an older race, and apparently have had access to magic longer. I think the whole sealing and unsealing of magic in the bloodstones only applied to the surface races. The gods may not of even known about Asura until they set foot on the surface.

How could the gods not know of the Asura? Isn’t that sort of the requirement to qualify as a god? Y’know, omnipotence?

The Human Gods are not omnipotent.

I’ve yet to meet an Asura at Queen Jennah’s level of power.

All races were given magic at the same time.

@Khyron: No, it counted to underground races too. However, Tyria seems to naturally create magic on its own – not as a finite resource, but a replenishing one. This indication is given to how magic was usable before the Six Gods tampered with the bloodstone, despite the bloodstone having contained all magic. Furthermore, the asura were once specifically mentioned in an interview as having had magic and they knew that it became more powerful and then weaker but didn’t know why (this being, seemingly, in reference to Abaddon gifting magic).

@Oglaf: Omni-anything is only a requirement for monotheistic gods. Polytheistic gods only need eternal youth, lots of power, and the ability to create life or kill with the blink of an eye (except when magical artifacts or other gods are involved). At least in standard mythology.

Hell, most mythologies represent gods more as just higher beings than something that deserves worship because it’s all great stuff. And the Six Gods follow this.

If you’ve ever seen Starget SG1, you can think of polytheistic gods as the ascended Ancients.

Not to derail the thread too much, but I was under the influence that the Ancients were indeed omnipotent? They just choose not to involve themselves in the affairs of the “mortals”…? When they broke the rules they did seem to have omnipotence.

Or maybe just mind-reading powers, I guess…

Lucky Shot.7650:

Asuras are presented in this game to be the most intelligent race.

As far as I know only asura’s present themself that way. It’s like Coca Cola saying that Coca Cola is the best coke.

Asura’s think smart bout themself and have some genious moments through trial and error. But they also make a lot of goof-ups in the progress and many asura’s younger and older have been killed from being too arrogant and thinking too highly of their intelect. I’m not saying they are dumb, but they are a lil but full of baloney

Oglaf.1074:

Not to derail the thread too much, but I was under the influence that the Ancients were indeed omnipotent? They just choose not to involve themselves in the affairs of the “mortals”…? When they broke the rules they did seem to have omnipotence.

I didn’t know that mere humans could outpower an omnipotent being with technology. /endsemisarcasm

They’ve become spectral beings (thus “immortal” though more like ghosts) and are very powerful and knowledgable, but they’re neither all powerful nor all knowing.

Though the Six Gods are said to be omnipotent in their domain (so I guess that means Balthazar could never be beaten in a physical battle? Probably why he got so angry when he lost in a game of Nui).

Knox.8462:

I’ve yet to meet an Asura at Queen Jennah’s level of power.

That pretty much summarises what I was about to say. :P

The asura are certainly the most technically competant when it comes to magic… but most of the truly impressive feats the asura have pulled off, they’ve done so with the aid of magical devices. No asura that I can think of has become famous through some awesome display of personal power, it comes through the inventions they have made… which might actually have little to do with how much power the asura in question can directly wield. After all, there’s nothing stopping someone making an asura warrior and giving them the biography choices that lead to them developing things like weather machines and portals to parallel universes… they just need to come up with how to do it, and most of the actual magical power comes from other sources.

Meanwhile, Guild Wars stories are littered with examples of some human mage single-handedly winning a battle through some awesome display of magical power. Some of these have costed the life of the mage in question, some have not, but it’s not something that we’ve seen from the asura. Admittedly, this might be because our perspective is biased by knowing more of human history and legends, but it does seem as if humans have the ability to wield more magical power personally than asura, while asura need to lean on devices to achieve greatness.

Of course, if this is true, the asura would never admit it… and as has been said, it’s mostly the asura saying that the asura are the best at magic. And, well, everything.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though the Six Gods are said to be omnipotent in their domain (so I guess that means Balthazar could never be beaten in a physical battle? Probably why he got so angry when he lost in a game of Nui).

That can’t be quite true either, as in Nightfall Abaddon was defeated right in his realm (granted, he was chained and weakened, but if had been omnipotent in his realm, how could that have happened?) and Grenth and the seven reapers imprisoned Grenth within the Underworld. Both were part of the six gods at the time of their defeats.

I definitely agree with draxynnic on this – humans seem to have a stronger natural aptitude for magic based on powerful individuals and magical feats in the lore, while Asura are more adept at harnessing magical energy into technology.

In general, I feel like the two races approach magic in very different ways. Human mages I see more like artists – they use magic on a combination of training, creativity, and intuition. They have a higher raw potential than Asura, and can perform some pretty impressive magical feats without the use of technology. However, they don’t have much skill in using it in conjunction with technology, and Asura magitech can often outdo human magic.

The Asura, on the other hand, see magic more as a force to be harnessed and used to power technology – they are scientists and engineers, and magic is a subject of study, and a source of ‘fuel’. As already noted, all of the Asura’s most impressive magical accomplishments are through the use of devices and technology. They are unrivaled in their ability to understand magic and use it as a way to fuel amazing devices, but they don’t seem to have the same raw potential to use magic unaided by technology that humans have.

It can be argued that this is purely mechanical and thus has no bearing on lore, but I would look at the racial skills. Asura racial skills are all based on technology, none on ‘natural’ use of magic. Human racial skills, on the other hand, invoke magic in the form of prayers without any technological aid, and even non-magical classes can use them. This suggests that all humans have at least the potential to wield magic.

I’m not sure one is necessarily better than the other, they just utilize magic in different ways, and each is stronger in their particular approach that the other.

Tuomir.1830:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though the Six Gods are said to be omnipotent in their domain (so I guess that means Balthazar could never be beaten in a physical battle? Probably why he got so angry when he lost in a game of Nui).

That can’t be quite true either, as in Nightfall Abaddon was defeated right in his realm (granted, he was chained and weakened, but if had been omnipotent in his realm, how could that have happened?) and Grenth and the seven reapers imprisoned Grenth within the Underworld. Both were part of the six gods at the time of their defeats.

I do not believe Konig meant domain as in their realm. I think he means more or less than not one should not be better at a trait belonging to a god. Granted we killed Abbadon, but there isn’t a secret that we know that he didn’t. And he knew about every magical skill/spell. Dhuum cannot be killed because he is the god of death. You should not have a more impressive fire display than Balthazar. And you should not be able to heal better than Dwayna.

Tuomir.1830:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though the Six Gods are said to be omnipotent in their domain (so I guess that means Balthazar could never be beaten in a physical battle? Probably why he got so angry when he lost in a game of Nui).

That can’t be quite true either, as in Nightfall Abaddon was defeated right in his realm (granted, he was chained and weakened, but if had been omnipotent in his realm, how could that have happened?) and Grenth and the seven reapers imprisoned Grenth within the Underworld. Both were part of the six gods at the time of their defeats.

Though by what I said that would mean that nothing’s smarter than Abaddon, Dhuum cannot be killed, Lyssa’s the most beautiful thing ever, etc. etc. By domain I didn’t mean realm but what they govern (Knowledge, Death, Life, War, Beauty, and Nature seem to be the prime aspects that they govern – though Lyssa’s less clear and may be Illusion instead, but every god seems to have a “primary” domain which isn’t elemental but metaphysical/action-based with addendum domains that change when gods are supplanted (Grenth governing ice, for example, or Lyssa taking water from Abaddon)).

So Abaddon being killed and Dhuum being defeated but unable to be killed by Grenth does not debunk what I said.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tuomir.1830:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though the Six Gods are said to be omnipotent in their domain (so I guess that means Balthazar could never be beaten in a physical battle? Probably why he got so angry when he lost in a game of Nui).

That can’t be quite true either, as in Nightfall Abaddon was defeated right in his realm (granted, he was chained and weakened, but if had been omnipotent in his realm, how could that have happened?) and Grenth and the seven reapers imprisoned Grenth within the Underworld. Both were part of the six gods at the time of their defeats.

Though by what I said that would mean that nothing’s smarter than Abaddon, Dhuum cannot be killed, Lyssa’s the most beautiful thing ever, etc. etc. By domain I didn’t mean realm but what they govern (Knowledge, Death, Life, War, Beauty, and Nature seem to be the prime aspects that they govern – though Lyssa’s less clear and may be Illusion instead, but every god seems to have a “primary” domain which isn’t elemental but metaphysical/action-based with addendum domains that change when gods are supplanted (Grenth governing ice, for example, or Lyssa taking water from Abaddon)).

So Abaddon being killed and Dhuum being defeated but unable to be killed by Grenth does not debunk what I said.

Ah, yes, I see what you meant now. However, that’s not the same thing as omnipotent, which by definition means capable of anything. Unrivaled would be a more fitting word, though it doesn’t carry quite the same impact.

@Caledore: Now that you mention it, actually, I think the thing about humans coming at magic from a different – and less scientific – is something that we’ve been told directly, although this didn’t extend to ‘asura are better at magitech, but humans can outstrip asura in unaided magical potential’. Bottomlining it, though, humans seem to be more of the classical fantasy archetype – they have powerful magical artifacts, but those artifacts are more ‘enchanted item’ than ‘magical technology’ in nature, and humans also have the sense that the most powerful items come from the past while the asura are building towards the future.

@Konig: I think you’re right in that Lyssa’s primary focus is beauty rather than illusion – one of Abaddon’s devoted is Illusions, implying that he and Lyssa may have competed for it before the events leading up to the Exodus. In fact, I was analysing the magical areas focused on by the gods recently, and there’s a lot of overlap between Lyssa and Abaddon – I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out she pillaged his domains right after his banishment as well as after Kormir’s ascension.

Tuomir.1830:

Ah, yes, I see what you meant now. However, that’s not the same thing as omnipotent, which by definition means capable of anything. Unrivaled would be a more fitting word, though it doesn’t carry quite the same impact.

Hence “omnipotent in their domain” – or in other words “all powerful in their domain.”

To quote Kerrsh: “How can beings be all-powerful and yet have more power than other all-powerful beings in one particular “facet” of their manifestations?"

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Cipher_of_Melandru

That’s where my basis comes from – they’re not omnipotent per say, but there’s no greater force when it comes to their domain.

@Drax: I’ve noticed the overlapping between Abaddon and Lyssa a long while back. Always found it interesting, and makes me think there was something more between them – be it competitive or cooperative. The former would explain why Varesh went and desecrated a major temple of Lyssa for Nightfall, and why it was Lyssa’s Muse who did the talking in Gate of Madness when the avatars were summoned.

Then there’s also how the depiction of Lyssa’s face on the three seals is akin to Abaddon’s mask in general shape (just keep 2 eyes in mind instead of 6).

Yeah, the overlapping has been noted before, but it became quite stark when I made a set of categories of magic (chaos, fire, illusion – that sort of level) and the types Abaddon was associated with overlaid those Lyssa is associated with now pretty much exactly.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tuomir.1830:

Ah, yes, I see what you meant now. However, that’s not the same thing as omnipotent, which by definition means capable of anything. Unrivaled would be a more fitting word, though it doesn’t carry quite the same impact.

Hence “omnipotent in their domain” – or in other words “all powerful in their domain.”

To quote Kerrsh: “How can beings be all-powerful and yet have more power than other all-powerful beings in one particular “facet” of their manifestations?"

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Cipher_of_Melandru

That’s where my basis comes from – they’re not omnipotent per say, but there’s no greater force when it comes to their domain.

“Your stories speak of extremely powerful, almost omnipotent beings who each specialize in one area of superiority.”

The previous line in the same dialogue. I’m not saying they’re not all-powerful in their own domain, I’m saying they are not omnipotent, as it’s not the same thing. Being omnipotent is measured in only 2 numbers, 0 and 1. If you’re almost omnipotent, you are not omnipotent. And the human gods (or any known being in Tyria for that matter) most certainly are not omnipotent. There’s no such a thing as being omnipotent at something but not in something else.

Knox.8462:

I’ve yet to meet an Asura at Queen Jennah’s level of power.

You’ve not yet met very many Asura.

nakoda.4213:

Knox.8462:

I’ve yet to meet an Asura at Queen Jennah’s level of power.

You’ve not yet met very many Asura.

I assume he means her level of power unaided by technology. Jennah at Ebonhawke, during the Ogre Revolt, created a massive illusion of Kralkatorrik. That’s a display of magical power that I haven’t seen any Asura reach without the aid of technology.

When you consider magitech, though, they have many devices that can reach such high levels of power (or, arguably, surpass them). So the Asura can achieve similar power, but, from what we’ve seen so far, they require technology to do so.

Jennah isn’t the only human in lore to show such massive personal power, either. It’s by no means the norm for human mages but it at least shows how high their potential can go.

Tuomir.1830:

I’m not saying they’re not all-powerful in their own domain, I’m saying they are not omnipotent, as it’s not the same thing. […] There’s no such a thing as being omnipotent at something but not in something else.

Omnipotent. Translation: Omni=all; potent=power – together, all powerful.

So saying that one is omnipotent in one domain is the same as saying they’re all powerful in one domain. So yes, you can be omnipotent at something but not in something else. However, you’re also right in saying they’re not omnipotent – since saying that has the implied “at everything” tagged in.

In other words:

“Omnipotent” != “Omnipotent at something”

But both can exist.