Atheism
Of course. Magic does not equal divine influence. For humans, they see it through a lens of divine influence because their gods historically used the bloodstones to gate access to magic. To the Charr and Asura magic would be more like gravity or physics – inherent properties of the world to be studied and manipulated. The Norn have shamanistic outlook, so they would generally not be atheist. That leaves the Sylvari, whom don’t really have a well defined culture of their own yet.
I would say that of the races, Human and Norn would be the least likely to have many atheist members, Sylvari falling somewhere in the middle, and the Charr and Asura having the most atheist believers.
Atheism by definition means belief that there is no god. By that definition, all races that do not believe in a god or gods are atheists. Norn would be included since they don’t believe in gods but spirits.
Atheism is very easy in Tyria as the al omnipotent god doesn’t exist.
Humans and their gods came from another plane.
Charr believe gods are mortal and should be killed to prove they’re stronger.
Asura believe in a mechanical, or non-sentient god, that is “fate” or a prewritten story for the world.
Norn believe in spirits
And sylvari believe in the sun and the mold growing on their feet.
Even the human gods aren’t all that mighty, they’re propably the first humans to exist or something silly like that, for the most part, they just have enough magic to warp reality to make it look like they’re gods.
There are demons, however, as old as reality, such as Rodgort, but even they don’t do much. I don’t think Rodgort ever did more than teaching mortals how to breath fire..
Atheism is very easy in Tyria as the al omnipotent god doesn’t exist.
Actually, that’s, technically, not what athiesm means.
Atheism by definition means belief that there is no god. By that definition, all races that do not believe in a god or gods are atheists.
This is the accurate definition of what athiesm means.
Humans and their gods came from another plane.
-snip-
Even the human gods aren’t all that mighty, they’re propably the first humans to exist or something silly like that, for the most part, they just have enough magic to warp reality to make it look like they’re gods.
While semi-accurate, the human gods do line up with real world religions. The ancient greeks and ancient egyptians both had pantheons (expansive, truly expansive pantheons) and that was their religion, that was their belief system. It was a real religion. Whether it’s true is another matter entirety (and not the topic of this discussion), but objectively speaking, it is a religion and, by the method of looking at old real world religions, the human gods match up.
Also, atleast two positions in the pantheon are known to have been replaced, one of them in Guild Wars.
Grenth overthrew Dhuum before him. Kormir overthrew Abaddon in Guild Wars Nightfall, and Abaddon overthrew someone before him.
So they could not simply be ‘the first humans’. Also, Grenth is half-god and half-human and is Dwayna’s son.
ALSO, the Gods apparently have different ages. Melandru is said to be the oldest of the pantheon, while Dwayna was the first to step into Tyria.
There’s something going on beyond ‘extremely powerful’, as in Nightfall, when Kormir absorbed the essence of Abaddon upon his death, she was given some sort of blessing by the other five gods. It seems to be beyond “go forth and do our bidding”, as Kormir, a mere human, was able to obtain the essence of a god, something way beyond what humans, or indeed many other races, are capable of (simply, look at all the victims of the bloodstone explosion). As of yet, we don’t know whether Lazarus is the real Lazarus or not, so we can’t confirm whether mursaat fall outside of this category or not (also it’s been noted that Lazarus was one of the more powerful mursaat) so he/she/it is simply an outlier at the moment.
Charr believe gods are mortal and should be killed to prove they’re stronger.
This is true, though specifically they were talking about the human gods. They’ve also had bad experiences with thiesm in their past so it makes sense.
Asura believe in a mechanical, or non-sentient god, that is “fate” or a prewritten story for the world.
The Eternal Alchemy is often considered a religion, though it is more of a scientific or philosophical view of life, and shares few of the common attributes of most religions. That’s what the Eternal Alchemy is, nothing to do with a non-sentient god. There’s more details in the link so I won’t go into it.
Norn believe in spirits
Half truth at best. The norn belive in the Spirits of the Wild, not just ‘spirits’. The Spirits of the Wild are guides, essentially, for the way of how to act. They aren’t worshiped but are revered for their teachings.
And sylvari believe in the sun and the mold growing on their feet.
Actually, they believe in the teachings of Ventari. They hold Ventari’s Tablet as something sacred. It’s not a religion though.
There are demons, however, as old as reality, such as Rodgort, but even they don’t do much. I don’t think Rodgort ever did more than teaching mortals how to breath fire..
Not sure what this has to do with the topic of athiesm.
EDIT: dived in a bit more about the human gods.
(edited by castlemanic.3198)
“Atheism by definition means belief that there is no god. "
Not true. Can be easy to confuse because of specific wording, but the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”
It’s not a belief in no god(s). It is a complete lack of belief entirely. Meaning their views are based solely on evidence and not faith. It seems like a small nitpick in wording, but the actual difference is huge.
Understanding this, you can easily say that the Asura are atheists. They acknowledge the human gods and make absolutely no claims that they do not exist, but only acknowledge them as powerful beings based on the fact that there is evidence for them. Not because of some ancient traditions or scriptures CLAIMING they exist with no concrete evidence to back it up, but because they find actual evidence.
Real world atheists themselves even seem to think that atheism is a strict adherence to the idea that there absolutely is no God and that is it, so it’s easy to get confused. But that’s not actually the case. That’s Anti-theism. Atheism just makes the claim that until proof of God(s) is found, there’s no point in going on pretending one exists.
Leader and sole member of the “Bring Penguins to Tyria” movement.
“Atheism by definition means belief that there is no god. "
Not true. Can be easy to confuse because of specific wording, but the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”It’s not a belief in no god(s). It is a complete lack of belief entirely. Meaning their views are based solely on evidence and not faith. It seems like a small nitpick in wording, but the actual difference is huge.
Understanding this, you can easily say that the Asura are atheists. They acknowledge the human gods and make absolutely no claims that they do not exist, but only acknowledge them as powerful beings based on the fact that there is evidence for them. Not because of some ancient traditions or scriptures CLAIMING they exist with no concrete evidence to back it up, but because they find actual evidence.Real world atheists themselves even seem to think that atheism is a strict adherence to the idea that there absolutely is no God and that is it, so it’s easy to get confused. But that’s not actually the case. That’s Anti-theism. Atheism just makes the claim that until proof of God(s) is found, there’s no point in going on pretending one exists.
Anti-theism is the belief that there shouldn’t be a god, that it is great He does not exist.
“Atheism by definition means belief that there is no god. "
Not true. Can be easy to confuse because of specific wording, but the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”It’s not a belief in no god(s). It is a complete lack of belief entirely. Meaning their views are based solely on evidence and not faith. It seems like a small nitpick in wording, but the actual difference is huge.
Understanding this, you can easily say that the Asura are atheists. They acknowledge the human gods and make absolutely no claims that they do not exist, but only acknowledge them as powerful beings based on the fact that there is evidence for them. Not because of some ancient traditions or scriptures CLAIMING they exist with no concrete evidence to back it up, but because they find actual evidence.Real world atheists themselves even seem to think that atheism is a strict adherence to the idea that there absolutely is no God and that is it, so it’s easy to get confused. But that’s not actually the case. That’s Anti-theism. Atheism just makes the claim that until proof of God(s) is found, there’s no point in going on pretending one exists.
Anti-theism is the belief that there shouldn’t be a god, that it is great He does not exist.
Well, whatever the specifics of anti-theism are, it’s probably not too popular in Tyria. The human gods in Tyria made themselves very well known until very recently in Tyrian history. Whether you see them as gods or not is irrelevant, but every race seems to have documented evidence of them existing. (I.E every race knows that Balthazaar opened a portal to the mists in LA after Zhaitan flooded the original one)
If I recall correctly, the Sylvari didn’t start waking up until a good bit after any of the gods revealed themselves, so they might be the most skeptical.
Your definition of anti-theism might make the Charr candidates since they seem to have a bit of a grudge against (at least human) gods. But they do think the gods exist. They just don’t like them.
Leader and sole member of the “Bring Penguins to Tyria” movement.
“Atheism by definition means belief that there is no god. "
Not true. Can be easy to confuse because of specific wording, but the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”
Well, whatever the specifics of anti-theism are
The irony.
Also
Real world atheists themselves even seem to think that atheism is a strict adherence to the idea that there absolutely is no God and that is it, so it’s easy to get confused. But that’s not actually the case. That’s Anti-theism. Atheism just makes the claim that until proof of God(s) is found, there’s no point in going on pretending one exists.
contradicts
the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”
“Atheism by definition means belief that there is no god. "
Not true. Can be easy to confuse because of specific wording, but the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”Well, whatever the specifics of anti-theism are
The irony.
Also
Real world atheists themselves even seem to think that atheism is a strict adherence to the idea that there absolutely is no God and that is it, so it’s easy to get confused. But that’s not actually the case. That’s Anti-theism. Atheism just makes the claim that until proof of God(s) is found, there’s no point in going on pretending one exists.
contradicts
the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”
Yeah, I don’t know if it’s irony, but there is definitely some hypocrisy in me dismissing the specifics of anti-theism while nitpicking the whole atheism thing xD
But I dont see how the second part is a contradiction. I’m just saying that people who claim to be atheists tend to actually be anti-theists.
Leader and sole member of the “Bring Penguins to Tyria” movement.
(edited by Squee.7829)
Personally, I find arguing about the definition of a religious group (and, by extension, identities who define themselves by their non-membership in such groups) to be a bit of a lost cause, since there’s no universally accepted authority who gets to decide who is or isn’t an atheist.
However, since Dictionary.com has the most easily accessible definition, might I suggest using it for the purposes of this discussion? Once we’re comfortable we know what the other party means when they use the terms, we can get back to the main point of what form they might take in Tyria.
Atheist: “a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.”
Antitheist: “one opposed to belief in the existence of a god”
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
@Squee
Real world atheists themselves even seem to think that atheism is a strict adherence to the idea that there absolutely is no God and that is it, so it’s easy to get confused.
matches
the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”
The above two are the same.
therefore
But that’s not actually the case. That’s Anti-theism.
Is wrong. Maybe not the idea of some athiests being anti-thiesm, but the specific circumstances you’ve put forth don’t match.
Then you go on to say
Atheism just makes the claim that until proof of God(s) is found, there’s no point in going on pretending one exists.
which contradicts
the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”
So yeah, it was a contradiction.
@Aaron
Yes let’s get back to the thread at hand.
Pretty much, it’s extremely easy to be athiest in a world that has magic, because magic is not something divine. As a matter of fact, magic does NOT come from the human gods (or any other deity for that matter), magic may come from ley-lines (we know the elder dragons consume and exude magic in their active and dormant states respectively, but I’m pretty positive magic did not start with them). Therefore, magic does not prove the existence of beings of higher power.
Now at least human gods exist. Humans (mostly) aren’t athiest due to their connection to the gods and their ability for prayers to have a direct effect (human racial skills). Other races acknowledge the human gods as existing, but deny the human gods the title of ‘deity’, seeing them as simply ‘extremely powerful beings’ a-la the elder dragons.
Atheism by definition means belief that there is no god. By that definition, all races that do not believe in a god or gods are atheists. Norn would be included since they don’t believe in gods but spirits.
Atheism is, more accurately, the belief of no divine being – we tend to relate the term “divine being” with “god” because that’s what almost every modern popular religion follows when they speak of divine beings (at least, God/gods are always “at the top”) – or rather, the lack of a religious system entirely. While the norn do not call the Spirits of the Wild “gods”, they do believe them to be divine beings, so they are not atheists.
The only confirmed atheists in Tyria are jotun and ogres – the former “revere the self” rather than anything “divine”, while the latter simply don’t give af about religion.
Even the charr are not atheists, because they believe that the gods exist, and believe them to be gods, but they see them as beings that can be killed (they’re not wrong) and, ultimately, rivals of their species that should be killed. I guess one can dub them “anti-deist” – believes in but openly opposes god(s) (as opposed to the aforementioned in this thread antitheism).
Since the asura have a religious system, though they treat it more scientifically than other cultures treat their religions, they also are not atheists. They also fully accept the existence of gods and other divine beings like the Six Gods and Spirits of the Wild, they merely revere something they believe is above them.
Similarly, while not a “formal religion”, the sylvari do revere the Pale Tree as both parent and guardian, and see the Dream with reverence. While it is a more “down to earth”, their reverence of the Pale Tree and Dream can be considered a religion, thus making them non-atheist too. Though how this has changed (if at all) since the situation of Heart of Thorns is unclear. Similar to asura, the sylvari do not truly question the existence of divine beings, though they do not consider the notion of revering such because they have not met such – they treat the notion of gods and divine beings with a “I believe you believe, but I’ll hold my doubts” kind of notion.
TL;DR
Yes, it is possible to be an atheist and even antitheist in Tyria, and we even know a handful of minor races that are such. However, due to the fact that divine beings (be they called gods or otherwise) do definitively exist, such a thing is rare and often limited to secluded, uncaring, or highly egotistical groups.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Asura believe in a mechanical, or non-sentient god, that is “fate” or a prewritten story for the world.
The Eternal Alchemy is often considered a religion, though it is more of a scientific or philosophical view of life, and shares few of the common attributes of most religions. That’s what the Eternal Alchemy is, nothing to do with a non-sentient god. There’s more details in the link so I won’t go into it.
Maybe I should’ve been clearer, what i meant was that by any definition of a god, to them, it’s just a machine, or a mechanism. Like, en encompassing entity of which “tyria” is a but a single cog. So, yes, god isn’t a very good word, but in trying to relate to it.
Amaimon.7823:
“Atheism is very easy in Tyria as the al omnipotent god doesn’t exist.”
Actually, that’s, technically, not what athiesm means.
> Yes, but I didn’t mean that. What I meant was, because the all omnipotent god(s) doesn’t exist, it’s very easy to have atheistic beliefs. I didn’t say atheism is “the god doesn’t exist”. minor detail.
As for the human gods, since we know that humans can become gods, or mate with gods to become half gods, how do we know the current gods aren’t just humans with excessive power? maybe the first few humans were all “gods”, and they slowly receded to a mortal weak state that is the modern man.
(edited by Amaimon.7823)
If you’re interested in this, you might like the Pyre Fierceshot storyline in Eye of the North in GW1. It concludes with a whole company of Charr chanting, “There are no gods! There are no gods!” I was pleased to see this theme carried forward into GW2, where staunch atheism is a cornerstone of current Charr culture.
If you’re interested in this, you might like the Pyre Fierceshot storyline in Eye of the North in GW1. It concludes with a whole company of Charr chanting, “There are no gods! There are no gods!” I was pleased to see this theme carried forward into GW2, where staunch atheism is a cornerstone of current Charr culture.
yea, but don’t forget that was a time when the charr were having a split because of the so called fiery gods. so whatever one charr said isn’t a universal truth. I think he was more focussed on the titans at that time
If you’re interested in this, you might like the Pyre Fierceshot storyline in Eye of the North in GW1. It concludes with a whole company of Charr chanting, “There are no gods! There are no gods!” I was pleased to see this theme carried forward into GW2, where staunch atheism is a cornerstone of current Charr culture.
yea, but don’t forget that was a time when the charr were having a split because of the so called fiery gods. so whatever one charr said isn’t a universal truth. I think he was more focussed on the titans at that time
Maybe not universal, but this fella in GW2 at least shows us that the Legions have an official stance on it- that gods don’t exist.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
“Atheism by definition means belief that there is no god. "
Not true. Can be easy to confuse because of specific wording, but the exact definition is:
“Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”It’s not a belief in no god(s). It is a complete lack of belief entirely. Meaning their views are based solely on evidence and not faith. It seems like a small nitpick in wording, but the actual difference is huge.
Understanding this, you can easily say that the Asura are atheists. They acknowledge the human gods and make absolutely no claims that they do not exist, but only acknowledge them as powerful beings based on the fact that there is evidence for them. Not because of some ancient traditions or scriptures CLAIMING they exist with no concrete evidence to back it up, but because they find actual evidence.Real world atheists themselves even seem to think that atheism is a strict adherence to the idea that there absolutely is no God and that is it, so it’s easy to get confused. But that’s not actually the case. That’s Anti-theism. Atheism just makes the claim that until proof of God(s) is found, there’s no point in going on pretending one exists.
Some real world atheists.
Atheists are a broad group (just like Christians, Muslims, Jews etc.) and just like any other large group of people they’re not all the same and won’t all agree. Just like some people will cherry pick aspects of their religion or stretch and twist it’s tenants to suit whatever they have already decided they want to believe and how they want to act some people will apply very different views and opinions to the label Atheist so they can apply it to themselves.
(The big difference is that with a few notable exceptions they don’t tend to expect anyone else to agree with them, there isn’t the same sense of a need for all Atheists to agree with each other, because they’re not supposed to be a cohesive group so much as people who are outside of the cohesive groups of the various religions.)
Atheism in fantasy generally takes two forms: Those who, like in real life, do not agree that there is any evidence any type of sentient higher power exists and those who acknowledge the existence of more powerful beings but do not worship them or consider them worthy of worship by others.
Atheism in Guild Wars is generally the second type. For example the asura acknowledge that the human gods and norn spirts exist, although there’s some debate over whether they’re living beings that live in the Mists rather than on Tyria or simply superstitious names given to natural forces by ignorant bookhahs (although when they’ve tried to test it the evidence seems to point to the former). But they see them as a part of the Eternal Alchemy in the same way everything else is – they’re not above or outside of it, they didn’t create it and don’t control it, they’re no more deserving of worship for their place in it than a storm or a drake or a rock.
And they don’t worship the Eternal Alchemy itself because they don’t attribute any kind of intelligence or awareness to it, or even consider it a single thing, it’s a series of processes that happen as a result of each other.
The charr go to what could almost be called the other extreme – they ceased to worship their former gods (the Titans) not because they don’t believe they exist but because they know for a fact they do (or did, it’s unclear whether any survived) and because they proved to be physical, possibly immortal but not invincible beings. And the found this out in a rather unfortunate way – when a bunch of punny humans inadvertently released them into Tyria and then slaughtered them all.
On an individual level I suspect it varies as much as in real life. I’m sure there are some humans who don’t believe their gods ever existed, who think they’re just stories made up to explain how the world works and tell people how to behave and others who accept that they once existed and may still be out in the Mists somewhere but who don’t worship them because they seem to have distanced themselves from humanity and don’t have anything to do with their lives any more.
Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
If you’re interested in this, you might like the Pyre Fierceshot storyline in Eye of the North in GW1. It concludes with a whole company of Charr chanting, “There are no gods! There are no gods!” I was pleased to see this theme carried forward into GW2, where staunch atheism is a cornerstone of current Charr culture.
yea, but don’t forget that was a time when the charr were having a split because of the so called fiery gods. so whatever one charr said isn’t a universal truth. I think he was more focussed on the titans at that time
Maybe not universal, but this fella in GW2 at least shows us that the Legions have an official stance on it- that gods don’t exist.
The charr stance, isn’t that “gods don’t exist” but that gods are not worth worshiping, and that to the Legions, a charr worshiping something makes them no different than the Flame Legion which enslaved the other Legions through religion and that, in regards to standard charr mentality, that the views of worshiping a god “is poisonous”.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
From the context, I think it’s pretty clear that “he does insist that gods exist” is part of the evidence being held against the prisoner.
But, again, I think we’re getting hung up on definition here. They acknowledge that Melandru, Dwayna, etc. exist, but hold that there’s nothing special about them that makes them worthy of worshiping. Whether that means they believe in gods or not depends on which definition of the word you use.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
That could also just be Marus’ own wording on the matter, and not the actual verbatim argument, since nothing else in the dialogue is about whether or not gods exist, but the act of worshiping a god.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
If a being is not worthy of worship, is it still a god?
If a being is not worthy of worship, is it still a god?
I may be misunderstanding this fact, but if the human gods accidentally created the crystal desert when Abaddon was defeated then seemingly, yes, it would still be a god. Especially with the ties between uncorruptable divine magic and the human gods.
What Saxifrage is saying is that ‘worthy of worship’ is at least implicit in some of the possible definitions of ‘god’. Like ‘atheist’ and ‘antitheist’, it’s one of those problematic terms that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, with no unbiased authority that’s empowered to impose a single meaning.
So, to answer her question… it depends on who you ask.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
If a being is not worthy of worship, is it still a god?
Not all “gods” are deemed worthy of worship even by those who practice the religion that holds the god(s) in their pantheon.
Some gods, rather than worshiped and revered, are feared or hated. These are often “evil gods”. In fiction, there will almost always be a cult worshiping the god, but the standard individual would never consider such – the closest they’d do is try to appease the god so as to not be smited.
The Lovecraftian mythos is a pretty good description of gods that are “not worthy of worship” because except by tribal individuals and crazed cultists, etc. they’re not worshiped even by those who know and fear them and their power – and even then, those who do worship the Elder Gods tend to do so out of fear more than reverence.
In most fictional settings, just like with our own historical western polytheistic religions, what applies a being as a “god” is not whether or not they’re deemd “worthy of worship” by certain individuals, but instead by the power they wield.
In the case of GW, there is a very real power that the gods hold – something that causes blindness in mortals looking upon them, which cannot be destroyed and if left uncontained (by killing the god and not having a replacement) that power threatens to destroy worlds.
But that isn’t to say that there are individuals who would argue Grenth, Kormir, etc. simply ‘do not exist’ in Tyria despite the very real historical texts. After all, we have people on Earth who still claim the world is flat, and go to extraneous lengths to “disprove” the notion that it is round.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
there are 3 types of god:
Malicious: They either will harm you without good reason, or they will harm you when not worshipped.
Obnoxious: Exist, but don’t care much for the world. They just do their own thing. Sometimes humans will get caught up in the consequences.
Justful: They will neither punish or bless anyone without proper interaction. They will simply ignore the humans that don’t worship them, or will evil.