Guild Wars 2

So I recently completed the storyline quest where you recover a water orb that the Krait found and were using to keep the risen undead at bay from their strongholds. Upon giving it to Trahearne and some priory scholars one of them mentions they don’t really know how it works, but it does have a large magical energy to it. So my question is:

Is this water orb that the krait originally owned a piece of the underwater dragon’s power / corruption? Like perhaps after x-distance away from the dragon it has enough of the water dragon’s power to repel the other elder dragon’s minions? That would be interesting if the orb could have a similar effect on Kralkatorrik’s, Jormag’s, or Primodus’ minions if so, and it begs the question of what to expect from that dragon should it arise far enough from the depths of the ocean to become another dragon to the checklist of things to murder the kitten out of.

I sort of doubt it simply because the orb is now in Fort Trinity. I don’t think they would shove something belonging to the DSD in the middle of a Pact fort (although that’s just my opinion).
I would think that the DSD is probably the last we’re likely to fight (if we ever do) since it’s as yet unnamed and we have other dragons posing a more immediate threat. I don’t think it needs to rise out of the ocean to become a threat though. If it came near Tyria it’s minions would pose a similar threat to coastal areas as the Orrian Undead did.

Side note first: @FlamingFoxx: if they don’t know what it is, then they cannot “not put something belonging to the DSD in the middle of a Pact fort” – because as far as they know or suspect, it’s not. Hell, we can’t even be sure they know of the DSD (they know of five Elder Dragons, not six; but we don’t know if the fifth they know of is the DSD or the Jungle Dragon).

It’s my theory that it is indeed tied to the DSD. You have to pay a lot of attention to the storyline involved with it, because there’s quite a bit in minor side-lines or even the dialogue boxes (not voice acted) with Sayeh, but Sayeh gives a lot of information about it. From what she tells us:

• It’s a thing of legend from the depths, something that wouldn’t be known to surface dwellers.
• Its origins have been forgotten, even to the “deep dwellers” (as Sayeh calls the underwater races), but it is known to be extremely powerful
• It holds its own dangers (what said dangers are, are unknown).

From what we know of the orb otherwise:

• It holds residual effect.
• It counters Zhaitan’s corruption.
• It is revered close to the krait’s Prophets (which themselves hold a lot of possible ties to the DSD/the DSD’s champions).

The biggest counter point is that Elder Dragons influence can corrupt the same being, but we don’t know if Elder Dragons’ can prevent other dragons from corrupting so it’s not a solid counterpoint. Then there is the fact that this orb has “dangers” which doesn’t seem to be in the realm of corrupting living beings (we don’t have much on DSD corruption, but what we do have is that it twists only water into minions); and it is both ancient, highly powerful magic, and of forgotten origins.

To me, it screams “Deep Sea Dragon ties.”

The “they” i was referring to was Arenanet not The Pact, as I said though it’s my own personal opinion that Anet wouldn’t choose to do that.

I don’t see why not (though that use of the pronoun was heavily misleading). I mean, if you found a device of unknown origins that kept you safe from your biggest threat, wouldn’t you want to use it? Chances are, even if you say no, most people would. And there’s little reason why not to use it.

The DSD is one possibility given the water associations – while we’ve seen that draconic corruption from one source does not prevent corruption from another, it’s possible that the DSD had some reason to create some enchantment to specifically block the creation of minions by other dragons.

Another possibility that we’re missing is that it might be somehow tied to the Forgotten. From what we currently know, the Forgotten are/were the experts at denying things to the dragons – why they would work with water specifically is unknown (but we also don’t know enough about them to say that they wouldn’t) but an artifact that prevents draconic corruption in an area around it probably would be right up their alley.

Incidentally, I’m pretty sure we’ve been told that the Priory and the Order know about the DSD, which means the Pact knows.

The Forgotten came to mind, but I don’t see a Forgotten artifact made to prevent dragon corruption having “its own dangers.”

And unless I’ve been missing something for the whole time, all we know the Priory and Order knows is that there are six dragons (Priory’s knowledge) and five dragon targets (Whispers’ “knowledge”). We don’t know, as I said, whether that fifth target is Mordremoth or the DSD. Though there’s a lot more information about the DSD available in the open world (quaggans’ reports of why they fled their home) than the Jungle Dragon.

Couldn’t the dangers that Sayeh mentions be it’s extreme importance to the Krait? I mean once the Risen are pushed out, I could see the Krait attempting to reclaim their artifact, thus meaning that it may hold no direct tie to the DSD (should your theory on the Krait tie to the DSD be incorrect).

Also, perhaps it was a Forgotten creation, but it did not work out entirely as expected and it had a “danger” of some sort which would be why they threw it into the depths of the ocean to be rid of it (being as there were no known underwater races in the previous rise). Entirely speculation, but they are just as likely as anything else.

Indeed. It could be that the krait will attempt to reclaim it. It could have been a Forgotten experiment that went partially wrong, or the Forgotten may have trapped the orb in some manner that the krait have been able to bypass. It could be that while it stops undead from rising nearby, when above water it does so by generating enough magical radiation to potentially attract dragons and their minions in the first place (which might be why it was a failed experiment). It could be that the danger it presents is primarily to aquatic life, and it actually presents no threat at all to the Forgotten or the races of the Pact.

There are a whole lot of possible reasons why a Forgotten artifact, or an artifact from some other race for that matter, might be dangerous – and many, to be honest, I find more likely than the DSD producing an artifact specifically to prevent Zhaitan from raising minions in its vicinity.

Given the context, I think it’s more that it holds its own dangers even to the krait.

Sayeh al’ Rajihd: Impressive. I will present this trophy to the great Houses in your names. You have earned the right of introduction: I am Sayeh alRajihd.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: Now, as we agreed: the orb you seek is a thing of legend, known only to deep dwellers. Its origins are lost, but it is extremely powerful.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: It may pose its own dangers, but it does counter the undead dragon’s influence. Wherever the orb is, those who die near it do not rise again.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: The krait are keeping it in constant transit between their largest strongholds to maximize its effect.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: I suggest a plan: I was brought close to the slavemaster when I allowed myself to be captured. If you do the same, you may reach the orb.
Crusader Apatia: I’d rather snatch it in transit, while it’s vulnerable. The Pact desperately needs to rein in Zhaitan’s power.
<Character Name>: We have a difficult decision here, but at least now it can be an informed decision. Thank you for your help, Sayeh al’ Rajihd.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: May your steps be relentless.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wet_Work

Narcemus.1348:

Also, perhaps it was a Forgotten creation, but it did not work out entirely as expected and it had a “danger” of some sort which would be why they threw it into the depths of the ocean to be rid of it (being as there were no known underwater races in the previous rise). Entirely speculation, but they are just as likely as anything else.

Karka were around in the previous rise, you know.

@Drax: My guess is that it lies to being dangerous when underwater rather than when above water. And you’re right, there’s a lot of possibilities for why it “has its own dangers” to it, but the fact that we never see or hear of these dangers is quite questioning, and you have to wonder why. We can pretty much cross off all of your postulations, however, as each scenario is entered and non-existent in-game. It’s both seen above and below water yet holds no obvious effect, it doesn’t attract minions and the context shows against “the krait will be after it” (though I’m sure that’s a pretty obvious thing! But it’s not a danger the orb itself holds), and there’s no trap to it affecting non-krait so unless the krait removed the dangers, it still exists… but is not seen.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Given the context, I think it’s more that it holds its own dangers even to the krait.

Sayeh al’ Rajihd: Impressive. I will present this trophy to the great Houses in your names. You have earned the right of introduction: I am Sayeh alRajihd.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: Now, as we agreed: the orb you seek is a thing of legend, known only to deep dwellers. Its origins are lost, but it is extremely powerful.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: It may pose its own dangers, but it does counter the undead dragon’s influence. Wherever the orb is, those who die near it do not rise again.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: The krait are keeping it in constant transit between their largest strongholds to maximize its effect.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: I suggest a plan: I was brought close to the slavemaster when I allowed myself to be captured. If you do the same, you may reach the orb.
Crusader Apatia: I’d rather snatch it in transit, while it’s vulnerable. The Pact desperately needs to rein in Zhaitan’s power.
<Character Name>: We have a difficult decision here, but at least now it can be an informed decision. Thank you for your help, Sayeh al’ Rajihd.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: May your steps be relentless.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wet_Work

Narcemus.1348:

Also, perhaps it was a Forgotten creation, but it did not work out entirely as expected and it had a “danger” of some sort which would be why they threw it into the depths of the ocean to be rid of it (being as there were no known underwater races in the previous rise). Entirely speculation, but they are just as likely as anything else.

Karka were around in the previous rise, you know.

@Drax: My guess is that it lies to being dangerous when underwater rather than when above water. And you’re right, there’s a lot of possibilities for why it “has its own dangers” to it, but the fact that we never see or hear of these dangers is quite questioning, and you have to wonder why. We can pretty much cross off all of your postulations, however, as each scenario is entered and non-existent in-game. It’s both seen above and below water yet holds no obvious effect, it doesn’t attract minions and the context shows against “the krait will be after it” (though I’m sure that’s a pretty obvious thing! But it’s not a danger the orb itself holds), and there’s no trap to it affecting non-krait so unless the krait removed the dangers, it still exists… but is not seen.

It sounds very similar to the bloodstone effect of if you died on it your soul would be sucked up(though instead of standing on it, it’s energies act as a large energy trap). The batteries the mursaat used had to used a device to prevent the soul from just leaving the world(in this mention the bloodstone). My guess is this stone either sucks up souls without any visible hint or it’s energy causes the body to no longer accept magic into it(we don’t know if this second part could potentially be true at least from my perspective.)

Well that’s more or less correct about the Bloodstones, but that’s not really what the blue orb does or even looks like (the Blodstones are a dark red/purplish color, not blue).

Could it possibly be an artifact of Abbadon’s? His portfolio included water too, and it may hold lingering traces of his madness and corruption which might explain the “dangers” Sayeh talked about. Come to think of it, if the krait have had this orb for a while and are shuttling it between their largest communities, it may go a long way to explaining why modern krait are so much more intelligent, and also so bloodthirsty, compared to their EotN incarnations.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Drax: My guess is that it lies to being dangerous when underwater rather than when above water. And you’re right, there’s a lot of possibilities for why it “has its own dangers” to it, but the fact that we never see or hear of these dangers is quite questioning, and you have to wonder why. We can pretty much cross off all of your postulations, however, as each scenario is entered and non-existent in-game. It’s both seen above and below water yet holds no obvious effect, it doesn’t attract minions and the context shows against “the krait will be after it” (though I’m sure that’s a pretty obvious thing! But it’s not a danger the orb itself holds), and there’s no trap to it affecting non-krait so unless the krait removed the dangers, it still exists… but is not seen.

Can’t cross off any, since I can rebutt each of your claims:

1) I’m presuming you mean the option where you allow yourself to be captured? It presents no immediate danger through the course of the story step. We don’t know what effect it might have if submerged for a long period.

2) Every known location of the water orb has Risen nearby – the krait strongholds and Fort Trinity. There’s a question of causality there, of course – the Risen would probably be in those locations regardless. The other dragons, on the other hand, are too far away to conveniently send minions in order to attempt to claim the orb. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t sense it and go for it, though.

3) The krait probably know better than to make a full-on assault on Fort Trinity through waves of Risen – especially since, story-wise, most krait in the area are Risen by that point anyway (those in the Mire Sea certainly – so the closest living krait are probably those in southern Sparkfly).

4) If the Forgotten placed some sort of defence on the orb, how would we know just what’s going to trigger it? It could be that it doesn’t trigger on the krait because it thinks they’re Forgotten, and it doesn’t trigger on the Pact because one or more of the Pact races were put on the Forgotten’s “authorised” list. It could be that, like the One Ring, it’s an intelligent item with its own agenda, and it manipulates its possessor to follow its agenda – at the moment its agenda is shared with the Pact, but there may be stories of others that have been somehow betrayed because the orb felt it didn’t share its agenda. In this circumstance, the orb may have allowed itself to be used by the krait because it sensed that had the best likelihood of it being ‘acquired’ by someone looking to fight the dragons.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Well that’s more or less correct about the Bloodstones, but that’s not really what the blue orb does or even looks like (the Blodstones are a dark red/purplish color, not blue).

I KNOW what a bloodstone looks like(played gw1 for over 5 years dont need to explain colors to me or anything gw1 in general) i said it acted similar as in it could be a stone that generates a magical field or acts as a suppressent by absorbing magic from the air(souls are magic in nature). That could be what the possible dangers are. While yes it prevents the dead from rising it also forfeits a possible afterlife by using their souls to hamper elder dragon magic(in regards to raising bodies, it could also just be necro like magic in general.)

Again these are all theories but if you look at what it does do and compare notes to other similar type scenarios even ignoring the bloodstones you could see how the magic in general could work. Remember the bloodstones were seer magic so the artifact could be seer in origin that got lost in the water.

Interesting possibility.

One wrinkle is that it’s not clear how much of the soul-sucking property of the bloodstones was from their innate nature, and how much of it came from the mursaat using them for soul harvesting to power the Door of Komalie – without the soul battery array, the bloodstones may not have any influence on souls. Certainly, the Curse of the Bloodstone effect is missing from the Shiverpeaks bloodstone when we get to it in EOTN.

draxynnic.3719:

Interesting possibility.

One wrinkle is that it’s not clear how much of the soul-sucking property of the bloodstones was from their innate nature, and how much of it came from the mursaat using them for soul harvesting to power the Door of Komalie – without the soul battery array, the bloodstones may not have any influence on souls. Certainly, the Curse of the Bloodstone effect is missing from the Shiverpeaks bloodstone when we get to it in EOTN.

It’s quite possible the mursaat batteries acting as a channel for the desired affect they wanted. Also there was an effect from the bloodstone http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aura_of_the_Bloodstone so there’s a chance that the bloodstones themselves could be altered do any kind of thing. My viewpoint is it’s either seer or mursaat magic that created the orb since both races were the most magical inclined in the previous awakening if the orb is really that old. i know we have little info regarding it.(i’d say mursaat more then likely just because during the previous dragon awakening the mursaat had the most effective magic against the dragons at least what we’re told and they were very effective at avoiding the dragons.)

I of course think there’s no relation between the orb and the bloodstone but both have show to produce a field that reacts upon a person’s death within the radius of the orb and bloodstone so it just feels like they have similar magic involved because of how they act despite no stated relation.

draxynnic.3719:

The DSD is one possibility given the water associations – while we’ve seen that draconic corruption from one source does not prevent corruption from another, it’s possible that the DSD had some reason to create some enchantment to specifically block the creation of minions by other dragons.

Another possibility that we’re missing is that it might be somehow tied to the Forgotten. From what we currently know, the Forgotten are/were the experts at denying things to the dragons – why they would work with water specifically is unknown (but we also don’t know enough about them to say that they wouldn’t) but an artifact that prevents draconic corruption in an area around it probably would be right up their alley.

Incidentally, I’m pretty sure we’ve been told that the Priory and the Order know about the DSD, which means the Pact knows.

And the forgotten look suspiciously similar to the krait. May they have a common ancestor?

@Drax:
1) Yes, I meant that step; yes, what you say is technically correct but it just leads into the realm of arguing against unknowns – as I can irrefutably rebuttal that we don’t know how long it would require to be submerged nor how long it has been submerged so it could not need long/have been a while.

2) Not just “could be in those locations regardless” but are, given how they’re much further out. Moreso with the latter situation. It doesn’t seem to draw the risen – when they were taking the blue orb, they were intent on removing a defense from the Pact, by all intents, rather than after that blue orb for what it is (just after it because the Pact had it).

3) What you said doesn’t nullify or even damage the opinion that Sayeh’s description and wording seems to be that the orb itself holds dangers, rather than the krait’s ties to the orb makes going after/having the orb dangerous.

4) I doubt the krait would pass for the Forgotten since – to all our knowledge – the Forgotten are not of Tyrian origin, and thus wouldn’t be related to the krait and that, despite the common placement of both being serpentine, the races are rather different in physical (let alone cultural) appearances. On other races having “approval” or what-have-you… only the humans would likely pass as such, which would mean the orb would have had its defenses placed after the humans arrived, which I find unlikely unless the Forgotten were certain the ED would rise again and made the orb as a weapon for humanity to use… but if that were the case, why not just spread knowledge of the ED? So that seems highly unlikely too.

@Pavees: I meant no offense, nor do I mean none now,but your post – to me at least – when removing the fluff and explanation of what the bloodstones are (something I too know very well, but did not know if you knew what they looked like, so apologies if I seemed rude – I hold no means of knowing how long individuals have played or how much attention they’ve paid), all I could see was basically “the blue orb seems similar to the bloodstone” – so I had no clue what it is you were meaning.

Knowing what you were meaning now, however, I would say that it’s possible and an interesting connotation, but I don’t really think it goes about absorbing magic – even just Zhaitan’s magic. As I said, it merely makes existing risen docile (mostly), rather than removing any magic… as far as we can observe and see, at least.

So it’s possible – and if so, then it’s probably of Seer origins – but I doubt it personally.

@Drax and Pavees’s latest posts: I’d say the bloodstone’s soul sucking attributes are tied to the inscriptions on them – which are seen on doors in Bloodstone Caves, which require “inscriptions” taken from the corpses of ettins nearby to open – as the inscriptions glow upon someone dying on the bloodstone.

I would disagree with the mursaat as the originator of the blue orb, as the mursaat’s magic seems to focus in two realms: souls and dimensional phasing (the former being things like the soul batteries and spectral agony, the latter, which seems soul-related too, being tied to their whole invisibility and invulnerability bit). That dimensional phasing seems to be what made the mursaat so effective, as we can use it ourselves to a limited degree during Arah explorable and it prevents risen from being able to harm us.

I doubt that the mursaat held a means to counter Elder Dragon minion-making, or to push them away, personally.

Of course, we must keep in mind that the jotun don’t know of all races that were around and survived the last ED rise. There were no mention of the karka or djinn, who were both that old and are still around. So there could easily be others that survived thanks to their premature starvation.

@Ludovicus: The Forgotten – or so we were originally told – come from the Mists. They, like humans, are not of Tyrian origins. And there’s really not that much similarity between krait and Forgotten – though there’s an increased similarity between krait and naga since GW2.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Drax:
1) Yes, I meant that step; yes, what you say is technically correct but it just leads into the realm of arguing against unknowns – as I can irrefutably rebuttal that we don’t know how long it would require to be submerged nor how long it has been submerged so it could not need long/have been a while.

The same point can be made regarding your theories that it comes from the DSD. Both are, according to the information we currently have, valid.

When it comes to ‘permitted’ races – if the Forgotten and the gods do go way back, it could be that it’s the connection to the gods that the orb is looking for. There’s also a theory floating around that the sylvari immunity to corruption may be a sign of Forgotten involvement in their history. Or, like I said, it’s just that the orb itself is intelligent and approves of people following the same goal, and punishes people who don’t (possibly in subtle ways such as, oh, influencing krait to provoke the Pact into attacking them).

@Pavees: The impression I get is that all of the elder races, with the (possible) exception of the dwarves, were all powerful magically – they just had different specialisations. Mursaat were good at spectral magic, including taking themselves out of phase and Spectral Agony. Seers were good at controlling magic directly. Forgotten were the experts at reversing and protecting from draconic corruption. The jotun we don’t know so much about – it’s likely that the contributed muscle more than magic, even if they were also powerful in magic – but were the astrologers of the group at least.

I’m more onboard with the idea of it being a relic of Abbadon, Dhuum or a combination of the 2.
Dhuum, mostly because of his stance on undead and resurrection.
Abbadon, due to the fact it was found in the sea and forgotten. Could be it was something he had originally created for his followers that was then lost. Both are known troublemakers, so I don’t think its any less plausible than other ideas brought up here.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Given the context, I think it’s more that it holds its own dangers even to the krait.

Sayeh al’ Rajihd: Impressive. I will present this trophy to the great Houses in your names. You have earned the right of introduction: I am Sayeh alRajihd.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: Now, as we agreed: the orb you seek is a thing of legend, known only to deep dwellers. Its origins are lost, but it is extremely powerful.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: It may pose its own dangers, but it does counter the undead dragon’s influence. Wherever the orb is, those who die near it do not rise again.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: The krait are keeping it in constant transit between their largest strongholds to maximize its effect.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: I suggest a plan: I was brought close to the slavemaster when I allowed myself to be captured. If you do the same, you may reach the orb.
Crusader Apatia: I’d rather snatch it in transit, while it’s vulnerable. The Pact desperately needs to rein in Zhaitan’s power.
<Character Name>: We have a difficult decision here, but at least now it can be an informed decision. Thank you for your help, Sayeh al’ Rajihd.
Sayeh al’ Rajihd: May your steps be relentless.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wet_Work
.

try read the 3th. line agien and please readt the seconed word in the 3th line right.

it MAY hold its own dangers, so basicly she is saying she dont know what it does and there for dont know if it has some dangerous side effect.

so basicly all Anet has done is open a door with a possibly nothing else.

it would be the same as saying that the next part of evolution may be bad for us.(we basicly dont know)

Actually, Korsbaek, context is everything.

You cannot take out that one word to mean its typical meaning. Depending on its usage, the word “may” means something other than “could” or “might.” The full sentence is this:

“It may pose its own dangers, but it does counter the undead dragon’s influence.”

In this usage, it’s not “it might pose it’s own dangers, but what is known is that it counters the undead dragon’s influence.” Rather, it’s no different than wording it as: “It counters the undead dragon’s influence, but it poses its own dangers too.” Or alternatively wording it as “Although it has its dangers, it does counter the undead dragon’s influence.”

It’s not just your word choice that matters, but how you use it. Every word holds multiple meanings, even the word “may” (even excluding the month, May).

Edusd.7893:

I’m more onboard with the idea of it being a relic of Abbadon, Dhuum or a combination of the 2.
Dhuum, mostly because of his stance on undead and resurrection.
Abbadon, due to the fact it was found in the sea and forgotten. Could be it was something he had originally created for his followers that was then lost. Both are known troublemakers, so I don’t think its any less plausible than other ideas brought up here.

Abaddon is certainly a valid possibility, yes. Water was his domain, and his role as the God of Knowledge and Secrets means that he likely knew things the others didn’t – so even if the others didn’t know Zhaitan was beneath them, he might have.

It’s possible, in fact, that Abaddon created the orb to defend Orr from draconic corruption, whether in general or as a specific “kitten you!” to Zhaitan. It would then be quite plausible that, somewhere between the war of the gods and Zhaitan’s rise, the krait (or some other underwater race that then lost it to the krait) looted the orb from the ruins of Abaddon’s cathedral.

Actually, my thought was dealing less with dragons and more about dealing with Dhuum way back when. Like, perhaps, the orb was created as a possible way of shutting down some of Dhuum’s power so Grenth could have a prayer of defeating him. Then, after said confrontation, or maybe when Orr sank the orb was found by the dwellers in the deep. The benefit of repelling Zhaitan’s minions could have been coincidental. The gods seem to have used a similar ploy when sending the PC off to kill Abbadon.
All this said, its all still just wild speculation on my part. I just think its an interesting idea, and its nice to NOT think of every single thing in game as needing to be related to an elder dragon.

It doesn’t make much sense to me that this orb could have been created to hurt Dhuum. Dhuum was against the resurrection of the dead and the creation of undead. Because of this it doesn’t make much sense that an orb that prevents this would have been made to hurt him, but perhaps it was created by him or for him to help promote his policy on the subject. Then, because of Grenth’s more lenient policy, it was removed and thus Grenth allowed the creation of undead and resurrection (which seems to have disappeared/never really happened/resurrection is just a confusing subject).

Well, I offered that up as a thought in my first post. But before I become confusing, let me just say that my main thought is that, it is possibly a creation of one of the gods for a purpose not necessarily related to dragons.
I pitched out Dhuum as an idea pretty much for the reasons stated above by Narcemus.

The idea of it being used against him in my 2nd post , was because whether or nor he liked resurrection, he still held sway over the dead. I’m under the impression that Grenth battled him in the UW, and such an artifact would have to have some type of an effect on Dhuum’s power. Going with this thought, it sounds like a thing Lyssa may have also had a hand in, as it sounds a lot like a type of denial magic involved. It also seems that she held at least some interest in water magic, since she eventually claimed dominion over it.

I just find it an interesting subject for discussion. Maybe we’ll get to learn the truth someday.

I apologize for my scattered thoughts.

No, I think it’s good for someone to have an idea that’s not always dragon related every once and a while, and I have a feeling that it may, perhaps have some validity behind it (as speculative as it may be). I could see the orb perhaps even having a stronger presence within the Underworld, because this is where the souls are sent to (at least those souls under Dhuum’s control). So perhaps in the UW it had the ability to prevent any spirits from ever leaving. Once Grenth came in he removed it and took it to Tyria, dropping it into the ocean where it’s effects would be muted. As always speculative, but I like where your train of thought is leading. I’m personally seeing it having a location somewhere in the Tower that was cast down to make the Chaos Planes.

Narcemus.1348:

(which seems to have disappeared/never really happened/resurrection is just a confusing subject).

I think the lore is that resurrection used to be possible, but has stopped for some unknown reason. Nothing has been retconned – a certain individual may claim otherwise, but an in-universe religious document turning out not to be the complete literal truth does not count as such to me, and everything that we saw with out own eyes in Guild Wars 1 is still valid.

Trahearne’s comment in the ossuary story step could simply be a reflection that Trahearne himself didn’t believe resurrection was possible – we’ve been told that the sylvari are sceptical about the human gods and other stories about things that happened before the sylvari awakened and no longer happen now. Thus, he could simply have assumed that all the requests for resurrection were rejected, when in fact that wasn’t the case. Or it could be that by the time a body reached the ossuary, if resurrection was going to be granted it already would have been.

I don’t know, in my opinion there is only 1 resurrection of the characters that is valid, and that is their resurrection after being slain by Shiro. Other than that I prefer to believe that resurrection was more of a thing of mechanics rather than lore. I understand that GW1 tried to tie it into their Grenth lore, but in the end it was really a flimsy way of crediting it to something. In the end resurrection didn’t make any sense to me in a world where, when people died it was permanent. And in Tyria the only people that ever seem to come back from death are the PC’s.

There is mention of it in the lore. The story of Devona’s father’s death, for instance, has him being resurrected the first time he died – then the enemy got to the monks and killed them and that was no longer available. Glint also references resurrection at the end of Dragon’s Lair.

Most of the cases of important characters being permadead in the lore there’s something that could plausibly have rendered them unable to be resurrected. Althea was burned to ashes. Rurik raised as undead and reduced to a skeleton, Saidra left behind to the Mursaat, Togo used as a ritual to return Shiro to the living. I think the PCs did have a purely mechanical effect in that they were protected against effects that logically should prevent resurrection (dying on a bloodstone with soul batteries, body used to create a minion). However, this is probably no different to GW2 PCs never dying regardless of what happens to them.

Either way, resurrection was definitely a thing that was referenced in the lore – although there may well have been some control over who could be resurrected (it might only have been available to particularly heroic or strong-willed individuals, for instance, and like many settings it probably isn’t available to someone who died of ‘natural causes’.)

I’ve always suspected that it was a “state of the body” thing – so when a body had to be temporarily abandoned, such as with Rurik and Saidra, the body would pass its “expatriation date” so to speak, and thus be unable to be resurrected.

Then when you slap on the need of magic to resurrect, you’re reduced further as magic wasn’t something to be used triffly outside of Orr – it required years of practice to master except for the talented ones like Cynn, the PCs, and (supposedly) Gwen.

(P.S., there’s another mention of resurrection outside of the lore-questionable PvP and dealings with Dhuumy-boy)

I still have the right to believe as I so, especially when it makes no sense. In GW1 there was soooooo much death that could have been prevented through resurrection (not just talking major characters), not to mention the fact that in GW2 resurrection is only mentioned once that I’m aware of, Gaheron. And Gaheron’s resurrection obviously take much longer and is a much more difficult and complex situation than we had in GW1. With the way that every other form of magic has advanced over the years it seems remarkably dumb to think that people have forgotten how to bring people back to life when it used to be so easy… Not to mention the fact that even if resurrection was available in GW1 but it no longer available in GW2, there is absolutely no mention of the fact that this ability was lost to people. I mean, if I lived in a world where people were resurrected all the time, I think I would note the fact that it STOPPED and people who died were just dead. I think that would merit conversation more than where the stupid gargoyles disappeared to…

Omg, I lol’d so hard at that last line.

If there were enough monks who were capable of resurrections, sure, perhaps.

But ask yourself this: were there?

And keep in mind that the biggest death numbers, caused by the Affliction in Cantha, had the killed bodies’ mutated into Afflicted. So there was no body to use for resurrecting.

It seems to me that resurrection is a rather rare and very difficult magic that just simply wasn’t available everywhere. Let alone for everyone. You say it was “so easy” – but what if it wasn’t? I mean, sure, every player can use Resurrection Signet, but in lore Signets are symbols/rings imbued with magic – so such things aren’t available for everyone.Then aside form that, you have one Ritualist skill, one Paragon skill, and a handful of Monk skills. And don’t expect for every Ritualist to know Flesh of my Flesh (which sounds self-sacrificing overall) and for every Paragon to have a Signet of Return.

“I mean, if I lived in a world where people were resurrected all the time,”

Another fallicious assumption on your part – you say it was “so easy” and that folks were resurrected “all the time” but… we never actually see such implied in lore itself. You’re taking mechanics – the fact that players can resurrect at any time from the usage of about 10 skills, and that any player can get at least one of said skills – as lore. And this is skewing your view on said lore of resurrection.

So you say it existed then, then why hasn’t it’s use grown? People FEAR death, and they would do anything in their power to put it off or remove it, so why then did no one ever attempt to take a magic that DID exist and try to expand it. Read here that only ONCE does anyone ever try to resurrect the dead in GW2 (that I can think of), yet in GW1 there were priests all over luxon and kurzick territories, and monks in ascalon that manned the shrines and caused resurrection. So you expect me to believe that none of these people passed on their knowledge of resurrection? No resurrection signets got passed on? No monk PC, hero, or henchman ever passed on their resurrection skills? It is ridiculous to believe that all these people had this power (even if it was only used sparingly) and no one was able to bring it into the time-period of GW2. Necromancers can now make their minions last indefinitely and they still hold to their master’s will when he “dies”. Micah Ferguson himself states, “Any skills I once taught pale in comparison to the power you wield, hero.” Yet no one in this vastly magically advanced world can resurrect?

Even if people didn’t resurrect all the time, they still resurrected. It was stated to be real in the world (which I choose to ignore and treat the same as how we “revive” players in GW2) and then this disappears. People are no longer ever able to come back from the dead, and no one thinks any different of it? I think not.

That’s the million dollar question, Narcemus. Other than the developer’s standpoint of wanting to remove death and resurrection since that reduced the quality of story-forced deaths (which itself lost its quality by the sheer amount Anet made), there’s no explanation for this.

But that doesn’t make it a retcon. It’s just one of the unexplained mysteries of what happened between GW1 and GW2. The thing is, we have a viable possible explanation to it. Two in fact. (Elaboration: Possibility 1, Dhuum returned and prevents resurrection; possibility 2, Grenth distancing himself with the other gods has caused resurrection to be unavailable – both assume that the gods’ active interaction for resurrection is required)

And though my memory may be off, I’m pretty sure there’s a historian which mentions resurrection in the open world as a lost art.

i don have an answer to your question but i did that part of my personal story a while back and great question man i never thought of that

If you can find that historian it would be great, but until then the whole thing still stinks to me. Even with the Dhuum or Grenth explanations.

My gut feeling is akin to Konig’s second explanation – whatever caused the gods to remove themselves has also made the spirits of the dead less accessible to be resurrected. It’s still possible, but quite a bit harder. One possible reason could be that every time a spirit is pulled back through the veil, it weakens the veil just a little bit… and with the veil being outright torn asunder in places like Godslost Swamp, Grenth may have felt the need to reinforce it, preventing the relatively easy access to resurrection seen in GW1, in order to work on repairing the damage.

This would also provide a simple explanation for the disappearance of ritualists, if ArenaNet does decide not to bring them back at all.

Another explanation not so directly related to the gods is that changes in what we can do with magic is not just due to having developed greater knowledge, but because magic itself has changed. There are things we can do now with magic that used to be impossible, and things that used to be possible that no longer are – resurrection might just be one example.

By the way, Luxons used to resurrect a bunch of people on a yearly basis (the Convocation) by harnessing the awesome power of a defeated (and very possibly Jade Wind corrupted) kraken spirit.

I don’t remember the game ever stating that they were resurrected, or that we killed them (which we did do in mechanics terms). Remember the storyline in Winds of Change where we are supposed to go through and just knock out guards so we can get Miku’s brother out. We kill all those people when it comes to mechanics, but according to lore we merely knocked them out.

You don’t “remember”? You should probably refresh your memory before making such claims then, Narcemus. Looking up wiki articles isn’t so hard, especially when you’re given a specific situation.

Alright, here, I’ll show you all off-my-head resurrection mentions in lore in the game, excluding the debatable PvP related ones or the Tutorial related ones (which were only in Factions and Nightfall).

“Zhu Hanuku’s death will release a large burst of energy, which we will harness and use to raise our fallen Champions. The sea that was, lends us its power to help facilitate this rebirth.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Elder_Cleo

“Three of us will die today. I do not fear it. The spirit of the crab is strong in me, and besides, I have died and been reborn many times in this life.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Daeman

“[…] In ancient times, these duels resulted in the final death of the loser. Of course, the Redemptors long ago determined that this uncivilized behavior was more fitting of those heathen Luxons, and the Council of Nobles agreed. Thus, it is now law to resurrect those who fall in duels.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Duel_Master_Vaughn

“Many people believe that maintaining a resurrection shrine and seeing to it that people get a second chance at life is supposed to be an inspirational and ennobling experience. I’m not one of those people.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lina_the_Healer

Their souls will be reaped upon one of the five Bloodstones, just as the Chosen you witnessed being slaughtered in the Maguuma Jungle. If this happens, no magic on this world or any other will bring them back."
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Dragon%27s_Lair_%28cinematics%29

“Should he seize control of the Underworld, Dhuum’s reign will be brutal and uncompromising, for he is the Final Death, and he does not tolerate resurrections or the undead.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Nightman_Cometh

_ “Remember all those times we were dying and I was the only one left standing but I used my signet on Alesia instead of you only to have her die while attempting to restore Lina’s life? Yeah, good times. Good times.” _
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reyna – a lampshade on the henchmen AI, but the signet refers to Resurrection Signet.

“Unless we all die trying… But that’s never stopped us before.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Epilogue – another lampshade on henchmen AI and gameplay, but still lore

There’s about a dozen more on top of the amount of the above related solely to PvP, explained in open dialogue which would at least imply being of lore, but as said is debatable due to the lack-of-lore in PvP.

I’ll admit being wrong about Zhu Hanuku, sorry. But I have not claimed that GW1 didn’t state resurrection was a reality. Merely that I choose not to believe it because of the TERRIBLE way that it has been explained and then just suddenly dropped with the inclusion of GW2.

All I am saying is…

There was resurrection and now there isn’t, and no one even gives a hoot. This does not make any sense.

The use of magic has progressed greatly in the last few centuries, no one has even TRIED to improve resurrection magic. In fact, people seem to have let it die off, which makes no sense. People fear death, this is a reality, and yet no one at all ever possibly thought to progress resurrection because of this?

The whole Grenth thing has always been a cheap band-aid placed over how resurrection even works. I personally wish they had just let it be so we could just pretend that it was always a mechanics thing and we didn’t have to try to make backwards and round-about ways for it to fit into a world where death is still final.

That’s no different than Obsidian’s stance on GW1 lore being a separate canon than GW2 lore.

And it wasn’t terribly explained, it was just not a topic of explanation.

I really think you’re over exaggerating about GW2’s stance of resurrection. And of how “common” it was in GW1. I mean, in almost every case of GW1 where resurrection was mentioned, it required lot of energy (for example, the energy which Zhu Hanuku gives off upon defeat).

Just because it’s not mentioned doesn’t mean “no one gives a hoot” or that “no one has even TRIED to improve resurrection magic” – kitten, I mean, we can’t even say anyone but the best of the best even had the ability of using resurrection magic. The Convocation required using energies from defeating a powerful sea spirit turned flesh; the kurzick duels were overseered by the Redemptors who are top of the cultural food chain; resurrection shrines required constant maintainence (lore-wise, seems to have been dropped for/added on after post-Prophecies (iirc, development wise, pre-Searing was made after post-Searing); etc. etc.

Your commoners don’t ever mention resurrection, and in GW1 they died and stayed dead.

Maybe no one mentions it in GW2 because in GW1 it was such a rare thing that most people thought it unlikely to exist? Maybe no one mentions it in GW2 because it’s just not bloody relevant to them. GW2 is in an age where almost everyone has their backs against the proverbial wall – charr are sieged on all sides, norn were forced from their homes, humans are being pushed back, and syvlari wouldn’t know such existed through personal experience. Maybe no one mentions it because they’re more concerned about other things than trying to figure out why a field of magic had went out of practice or stopped working.

People fear death? Yeah, humans do. But charr and norn sure don’t (or at least not nearly as much), and the other races have better things to do than wonder about lost arts. Only the Durmand Proiry and asura would really care much, and the asura less so given their burial rituals of cremation and the belief that the soul joins the Eternal Alchemy (would be more of a punishment to bring an asura back to life if that’s truly so).

TL;DR You’re over reacting. Keep it up and I’m gonna call you Obsidian 2.0

I am overreacting? You don’t think that if there was even a handful of recorded instances of resurrection in our human history dating to less than 3 centuries ago that people wouldn’t look back and try to figure out how it happened and how they could replicate it? I mean you stated yourself these were upper crust and it wasn’t in some back room, it was very public. You don’t think the charr would see it as a military advantage to bring their soldiers back to life instead of having to constantly bring in replacements? I mean yeah, you are right about the sylvari, they wouldn’t know or have a clue what it means. Heck they still don’t even seem to really understand what death means, let alone resurrection. Still it is relevant. I understand why you think that a bunch of people with their backs against the wall constantly watching the deaths of their loved ones would think the possibility of resurrection is not relevant to them.

Go ahead and call me Obsidian 2.0 (I couldn’t care less on your opinion of myself) but at least I give a crap enough about BOTH lores (not just GW1 lore) to point out the need for some explanation on a subject that has just literally been left dangling.

And you presume that you’ve been in situations where such discussions are relevant? Just because you don’t see it happen doesn’t mean it doesn’t – especially with how ArenaNet handles their lore inside the game, where 90% of it is buried, and half the lore isn’t even in the game itself.

As for your charr mention: they dislike magic, so it makes sense that they’d not consider it openly.

And you’re not simply pointing “out the need for some explanation on a subject that has just literally been left dangling” – I agree with that much. But instead what you’re doing, to use your own wording, is “choose not to believe it” – so with how you yourself said your view on the matter is, you are in fact not giving enough crap about both games’ lore, since you’re just avoiding an aspect of said lore.

There’s a big difference between acknowledging there’s a plothole, and claiming that the only way to resolve the plothole is a mass retconning of the old lore.

Resurrection used to exist in GW1. It doesn’t in GW2. There are lots of possible explanations as to why it doesn’t.

Yeah, it doesn’t get brought up a lot now – but it seems as if resurrection magic disappeared a long time ago. Whether the reason is known to characters in game or whether it’s a mystery to them as well, it happened long enough ago that in practical terms it’s only of interest to the odd scholar with an obsession. It probably is still discussed in some circles, but we don’t come across it, and there are a lot of things that would be more common knowledge (like, say, just where the official borders of Kryta are) that we’re similarly left in the dark over.

Real-life comparisons, unfortunately, don’t work because the laws of physics don’t change… while the laws of magic in Tyria might well have. Imagine, for instance, that there was a time in which cold fusion worked, but then there was some shift in the laws of physics that meant it no longer worked. You’d have people trying to figure out ways to get it back for a few decades, but eventually it’s going to just be a historical curiousity, especially if the scientific establishment had an explanation (accurate or not) of why it’s no longer possible.

Fine I’m wrong. I don’t know anything about lore, obviously, so please fill my useless void of a head and fix the major voids/gaps in lore that make it so terribly hard to wrap my brain around this problem

Grenth takes out Dhuum and makes it possible to resurrect and create undead. Except he makes controlling undead relatively simple to a specific group of magic users (necromancers) and resurrection kitten near impossible. Resurrection is possible, if you hike to the highest reaches of the Shiverpeaks to find the 1 guru in the entirety of Tyria that knows how to do it (exaggeration, but your point seems to state that there are maybe a couple dozen people in the universe overall that we know of that can cause resurrection, at most, less than 100).

And yet, resurrection is something that random simians in the middle of the Tarnished Coast can perform? I mean I understand that monster skills aren’t necessarily that monster performing that skill, but the end result is the same. One Simian brings another Simian back to life. It’s a little different from the Mantids coming back to life over time in the Charr Homelands to make them seem like those bugs that you stomp on and are still alive.

draxynnic.3719:

. You’d have people trying to figure out ways to get it back for a few decades, but eventually it’s going to just be a historical curiousity, especially if the scientific establishment had an explanation (accurate or not) of why it’s no longer possible.

Except it isn’t a historical curiosity. It is just a completely blacked out void. No one mentions it’s absence, no one mentions it’s previous existence. The only explanation that makes any sense to me is Lyssa came back and blanked it from their memories of it, because seriously it never existed in GW2, whereas it did in GW1.

Heck, there’s still 1 dwarf alive who came from those times. And I’m sure his build depended from person to person, but he rezzed my butt more times than I can care to imagine (god bless Unyielding Aura). But that doesn’t matter, he’s now a brainwashed dwarven drone, he wouldn’t care about resurrection.

Another item that does not fit with the current non-existence is the whole Baelfire resurrection. I will admit to having not ran the dungeon, so feel free to tell me if I’m wrong, but the player has to stop the ritual to prevent his resurrection. If you guys are at all correct on the Dhuum situation, this should not be necessary. Just grab some popcorn and sit in the corner and be prepared to laugh as their ritual blows up in their faces.

I think you’re way over reacting. Keep in mind one very very important thing:

You – nor we – don’t see everything that’s happening. So no one we see mentions it, doesn’t mean no one mentions it.