Guild Wars 2

It might not be the right section to post this, so sorry if thats the case

So, Caithe and Faolain where lovers. I think this is great! So many MMO’s try to implement Homosexuality in their lore and fail because of the intolerance of the community.

Obviously, with the sylvari not having the ability to get children, there is no concern for them to make their partner choices with that fact included. So many of them have a same sex partnership, like Nia and Cymbell in Fields of Ruin and as mentioned, Caithe and Faolain.

But where are the male relationships? And what about the other races? How do they think about this subject? Is this something, that is only a subject to the Sylvari? Appearantly, this is no problem for the Sylvari society, because they all knew about Caithe and Faolain.

I know, that this is a delicate subject to many online gamers, especially younger male persons. Please don’t let this thread be overwhelmed with hate or offensive answers.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure they’re not going to actually have gay Sylvari. Lesbian Sylvari they can get away with because even the Southern Bible-thumping Preacher will admit to it “being pretty hot” in the end.

Such is the moral hypocrisy of our time, I’m afraid. And yes, I am aware that the term gay applies to lesbians as well. But gay men don’t really have a word of their own…

Oglaf.1074:

Yeah, I’m pretty sure they’re not going to actually have gay Sylvari. Lesbian Sylvari they can get away with because even the Southern Bible-thumping Preacher will admit to it “being pretty hot” in the end.

Such is the moral hypocrisy of our time, I’m afraid. And yes, I am aware that the term gay applies to lesbians as well. But gay men don’t really have a word of their own…

I know, thats an interesting fact of the english language.

And I was thinking about the same reason, why there are no male relationships.

Early in the Sylvari storyline, the green knight one I think there was a male couple, but I cannot remeber their names.

Interesting.

Dagdar: Please! Enough. Victory is yours. Just let him live!.
Bercilak: Live! Ha! This sapling accepted my challenge and failed. His life is forfeit.
Eladus: Please, Dagdar. Go, and leave me. He’ll kill you too, if you stay.
Dagdar: You’re a monster, Bercilak. I won’t let you do this! I won’t live without my beloved.
Bercilak: So be it. As Ventari teaches, “Hard ground makes stronger roots.”

There are male couples and it would be silly to suggest that there aren’t considering the whole thing about the Sylvari is that they enter relationships that are based on love rather than on gender. Whether or not you see them does just depend on if you go looking or not and on what character biography choices you make. As some others have mentioned The Green Knight storyline features a gay couple.

Arenanet doesn’t really care how people react to it since it’s already in the game and there actually hasn’t been any in game community backlash over it.
Why? Because it’s great and most people have no problem with it.

With regards to the other races I’m quite certain it isn’t an issue. There isn’t anything in Tyria that says relationships are between a man and a woman.

With the war in Ascalon and the Flame Legions ‘no woman in war’ policy from back in the GW1 days you can bet there are same sex Charr relationships. Charr place importance in their Legions and warbands and are very much about working together so I can’t see them having an issue with it. Charr no longer have seperated gender roles, both men and woman fight and cubs are raised by their warband not necessarily their parents/mother so they are all on equal footing.

Norn place importance on strength. I think for them same sex relationships are fine because a partner should be chosen based on their strength. Norn admire people who are strong. I don’t think they’d care what gender that person is.

In a very similar way the Asura admire and place importance on intellect.

The male couples are, however, somewhat showed to the sidelines. There is that one story mission with the gay Sylvari whereas the lesbian Sylvari have an entire dungeon dedicated to them – Twilight Arbor.

If Caithe and Faolin were male then they wouldn’t have hesitated to do the exact same thing.
I think it’s great anyway and I’m really glad they put it in. It’s a relationship that feels very natural and unforced and it actually adds a whole lot to the storyline. It feels like it has a reason for being included, rather than having been included for the sake of it.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

If Caithe and Faolin were male then they wouldn’t have hesitated to do the exact same thing.

Yes, they would. There is a reason why Caithe was made a “female” and not a “male”. As I mentioned in my previous post, the professional whiners of the religious right-wing are often willing to let lesbians slip by.

Of course we’d love for it not to be, but we all know the truth. Lets not ignore the elephant in the room, shall we?

Neither Christianity or right-wingers are exclusive to America, y’know. And we all know what sort of hypocrites they can be when it comes to killing. As long as you’re killing the other guys and not being romantically involved with them, they are mostly fine with it.

Oglaf.1074:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

If Caithe and Faolin were male then they wouldn’t have hesitated to do the exact same thing.

Yes, they would. There is a reason why Caithe was made a “female” and not a “male”. As I mentioned in my previous post, the professional whiners of the religious right-wing are often willing to let lesbians slip by.

Actually, I think Caithe is female because if you count Snaff into Destiny’s Edge, then you get an even split between males (Logan, Rytlock, Snaff) and females (Eir, Caithe, Zojja). While the ‘gay men is wrong’ angle almost certainly did have an impact, I don’t think you can pin the whole thing on that.

I’m certain I’ve heard NPCs refer to male-male sylvari couples, but I can’t recall an example off the top of my head. My head’s too full of the tragic (male-male) romance backstory one of my roleplaying friends came up with her her character!

You know, I think it’s sad that homosexuality seems to be only present in Sylvari. It looks like Anet made them as they are, so they have a scapegoat, showing us more liberal players that they are cool enough to show homosexuals, but they are still afraid of rightwingers, so they make them on the strange plant race only. That itself makes it look like homosexuality is something wierd that only appears in weird races.

I’ve heard there are homosexuals of other races, but they are rather hidden, usually heart NPCs that fall in “love” with you regardless of race and gender.

There is a Charr… somewhere that mentions that the Flame Legion killed her female mate. This could however just be an oversight on Anets part and this Charr incorrectly having a female model, who knows.

But it could also be proof of steamy, furry Charr lesbian love!

BuddhaKeks.4857:

You know, I think it’s sad that homosexuality seems to be only present in Sylvari. It looks like Anet made them as they are, so they have a scapegoat, showing us more liberal players that they are cool enough to show homosexuals, but they are still afraid of rightwingers, so they make them on the strange plant race only. That itself makes it look like homosexuality is something wierd that only appears in weird races.

I’ve heard there are homosexuals of other races, but they are rather hidden, usually heart NPCs that fall in “love” with you regardless of race and gender.

I think it’s mainly that the Sylvari are more open about their romantic feelings than most other races, because they’re “young” so they tend to act rather adolescent when they’re in love.

You also hear quite a bit of dialog about heterosexual relationships if you hang around the Sylvari areas – and you’d be hard pressed to find that level of open discussion about male/female relationships either when you’re listening to conversations elsewhere.

I think it has a lot to do with the Sylvari wearing their hearts on their sleeves and tending to share information that members of other races would likely keep to themselves.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

You know, I think it’s sad that homosexuality seems to be only present in Sylvari. It looks like Anet made them as they are, so they have a scapegoat, showing us more liberal players that they are cool enough to show homosexuals, but they are still afraid of rightwingers, so they make them on the strange plant race only. That itself makes it look like homosexuality is something wierd that only appears in weird races.

I’ve heard there are homosexuals of other races, but they are rather hidden, usually heart NPCs that fall in “love” with you regardless of race and gender.

As has been mentioned, I think this is just because Sylvari are so openly vocal about pretty much everything. They don’t seem to have many, if any, taboos in their culture other than what the nightmare court vouch for (ignoring the Ventari tablet)…but even then, some Sylvari don’t consider them evil.

They probably find it extremely odd that other races may hide their sexual preferences in case other people judge them negatively for it. As has been mentioned by Ree (I think it was Ree), the Sylvari don’t have kids, so there’s no, “This is what we’re ‘meant’ to do to continue our race!” argument in terms of sexuality (to be clear, I don’t think there is a ‘right’ way in real life, either), so they purely have sex for pleasure and enjoying each other. Their only guides in life are what the Ventari tablet has on it and the Pale Tree, and neither of them comment on sexuality.

Interestingly, though, there are of course no (as far as I’m aware) comments of sexuality in the other races either in terms of who they seek, or do not seek, guidance from. They all value different things in who they are attracted to, but I agree it would be interesting to get more information on what the other races approaches to sexuality are. It is implied, like the Sylvari, that humans have sex for pleasure judging by the conversation the recently married couple have in Beetletun, if indeed you can surmise that they ran into a house giggling to have sex, but I’m not overly sure what the other races approaches to casual sex even are.

Homosexuality is not frowned/discriminated upon in any in-game society. There is no evidence of that. Lets get that straight. The reason why we don’t see it because of our bigoted society, outside of the game world.

There might be two gay Norns living in a Homestead somewhere, Brokeback Mountain-style. We just don’t get any insight into it. That does not mean, however, that gay/lesbian Norns are discriminated against or somesuch.

Which I certainly did not mean. When I say approach to sexuality, I do not mean ‘they think it’s wrong to be homosexual’, I mean compared to the fact that Sylvari are very open with it.

But I found this from Ree, anyway after a google search:

Ree: Other races of the world see the sylvari as odd for many more reasons than simply their sexuality – the issue of same-gender love among the sylvari is no more strange to, say, a norn than the fact that sylvari bleed a type of sap and not blood. Other races have a history of same-sex relationships, but those relationships tend to be downplayed and not lauded within the culture. This is not to say that the races of Tyria are naturally homophobic; they’re absolutely not. It’s simply not particularly common.

Within the sylvari, all forms of benevolent love are encouraged. If love makes you and the recipient stronger, if it encourages you to positive action and heroism, then it should be respected and celebrated. The sylvari see this as only natural. The other races are curious about it, true, because many of them aren’t used to seeing that kind of relationship. Still, the other races don’t, in general, approach it with a sense of abhorrence or disdain.

However, it should be noted that there will always be individuals whose personal beliefs counter their general racial tendency. Among the norn, for example, we have the Sons of Svanir – who are wholly and unashamedly misogynistic. Individuals of the various races might have their own reasons to denigrate a same-sex pairing. Such individuals will tend to be seen as villains within the overall culture of Tyria."

EDIT: Suppose a source would help: http://gaygamer.net/2011/10/interview_guild_war_2s_ree_soe.html

One wonders though if Sylvari have sex like the “fleshy” races or if it is more platonic. After all, their genitals are just plant replicas of the real deal.

Yeah, I’ve wondered about that (though not in too much detail!), but that’s going to be something Ree will have to confirm for us. They have replica muscles that work like our muscles do, I assume…can a Sylvari even work out and become stronger by doing so? Sincerely, does a Sylvari even lift?

JayMack.8295:

Yeah, I’ve wondered about that (though not in too much detail!), but that’s going to be something Ree will have to confirm for us. They have replica muscles that work like our muscles do, I assume…can a Sylvari even work out and become stronger by doing so? Sincerely, does a Sylvari even lift?

Considering the presence of buffer Sylvari body types I would be inclined to think that yes they can work out. It’s also possible that in order to get buffer/stronger they just concentrate really hard on photosynthesizing? xD

FlamingFoxx.1305:

JayMack.8295:

Yeah, I’ve wondered about that (though not in too much detail!), but that’s going to be something Ree will have to confirm for us. They have replica muscles that work like our muscles do, I assume…can a Sylvari even work out and become stronger by doing so? Sincerely, does a Sylvari even lift?

Considering the presence of buffer Sylvari body types I would be inclined to think that yes they can work out. It’s also possible that in order to get buffer/stronger they just concentrate really hard on photosynthesizing? xD

Or were those Sylvari simply “engineered” to be bigger and badder by The Pale Tree?

JayMack.8295:

Which I certainly did not mean. When I say approach to sexuality, I do not mean ‘they think it’s wrong to be homosexual’, I mean compared to the fact that Sylvari are very open with it.

But I found this from Ree, anyway after a google search:

Ree: Other races of the world see the sylvari as odd for many more reasons than simply their sexuality – the issue of same-gender love among the sylvari is no more strange to, say, a norn than the fact that sylvari bleed a type of sap and not blood. Other races have a history of same-sex relationships, but those relationships tend to be downplayed and not lauded within the culture. This is not to say that the races of Tyria are naturally homophobic; they’re absolutely not. It’s simply not particularly common.

Within the sylvari, all forms of benevolent love are encouraged. If love makes you and the recipient stronger, if it encourages you to positive action and heroism, then it should be respected and celebrated. The sylvari see this as only natural. The other races are curious about it, true, because many of them aren’t used to seeing that kind of relationship. Still, the other races don’t, in general, approach it with a sense of abhorrence or disdain.

However, it should be noted that there will always be individuals whose personal beliefs counter their general racial tendency. Among the norn, for example, we have the Sons of Svanir – who are wholly and unashamedly misogynistic. Individuals of the various races might have their own reasons to denigrate a same-sex pairing. Such individuals will tend to be seen as villains within the overall culture of Tyria."

EDIT: Suppose a source would help: http://gaygamer.net/2011/10/interview_guild_war_2s_ree_soe.html

I don’t normally accept gay couples in anime, games ect (they are just unappealing to me, it is not something I choose, it’s the way I am). But the way they’ve put the whole sylvari relationships in a way that I feel anyone could connect to. They are all like brothers, fellows, lovers. They kind of love they have for each other is not bound to the love we know. It’s such a pure love that it doesn’t tick my pucky nerve.

Good work with that A.Net

Actually, in a Vigil quest after your first disastrous trip to Claw Island where you recruit Fibharr Yogsson you meet Wjerd Bladeborn who’s in a fighting tournament with a female partner but expresses more interest in Fibharr.
Aside from this and the couple in the Green Knight questline, however I haven’t seen any other male/male relationships

In Rata Sum, on the level with all the asura gates, there’s a female Asura that’s interactable and talks about her female companion or something. It’s been a while since I’ve been there, but I believe she gives a dialogue box, and hints at being lesbian.

The Sylvari inj the beginning of the Green Knight Pesronal Story are a gay couple, spoilerone of whom was murdered by the Green Knight.

There are gay(I refer to male) couples in this game. Just look at all that sexual tension between Rytlock and Logan. I wouldn’t be surprised if in their next dragon-slaying they paused mid-fight to profess their love for one another, dazing the current dragon they are fighting and applying ten stacks of confusion.

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

There are gay(I refer to male) couples in this game. Just look at all that sexual tension between Rytlock and Logan. I wouldn’t be surprised if in their next dragon-slaying they paused mid-fight to profess their love for one another, dazing the current dragon they are fighting and applying ten stacks of confusion.

Thats what I thought too : P

So that’s why Rytlock is extra mad at Logan for running back to Jennah.

It all makes perfect sense!

Yeah, there are plenty of other, more viable ways to look at Logan and Rytlock’s very special relationship, but the yaoi fan-ship is definitely the most fun version :P

I always wondered why Rytlock is so angry. It all makes sense now! Thats why Eir wanted to get a matching sword for Logan so Rytlock will feel loved again. Alas, homosexuality may be acceptable in Tyria but i am not sure if bestiality is.

Anyway, since Sylvari cannot reproduce, why do they even have male and female?

FateOmega.9601:

Anyway, since Sylvari cannot reproduce, why do they even have male and female?

Because they are modeled after Humans by the Pale Tree.

Which raises all sort okittenward questions, such as if they do have genitalia, how did the Pale Tree come to get such insight into the matter that she could recreate them? Did she have two Humans come forth and do the dirty infront of her so she could learn how it works?

Well, the Pale Tree was there for a long time…

A more socially acceptable answer might be that some of the humans of Ventari’s sanctuary were buried near her after they died, and she absorbed anatomical knowledge from their corpses decomposing into her, in some way.

That seems a lot more disgusting and unnatural than the beautiful act of love-making, doesn’t it?

Did the pale tree perhaps think that ronan and ventari were bros?

I just wanted to thank everyone, for keeping this subject free of hatred posts. Keep on with it

I think the Pale Tree only modeled them after male and female humans so they’d be more accepted. Truly I think they’re asexual, though capable of love and romance. They’re plant people. They don’t reproduce, and I doubt they can have actual sex.

Here’s one funny thing I found, the reward letter for this heart quest : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Bjarni_honor_the_Hare_spirit

Bjarni

Hi

Linnea says I should send you a thank you for your help. Me and the bunnies are both very happy. Thank you!

—Bjarni
P.S. I think Linnea might have a crush on you. Shhhh.

If it hasn’t been changed, you can notice by completing this heart with two different characters that the P.S. doesn’t change depending on your character’s gender (nor your race I believe), effectively implying a lesbian love interest if you play a female. And I would agree that lesbian relationships currently seem more prevalent than gay (male/male) ones. Wether that is because of pure randomness (which can make the world more believable than perfectly evened out quotas) or because lesbian relationships are supposedely more acceptable remains to be determined. In the end, this game isn’t an essay about love and sexuality, it only uses some relationships here and there as narrative elements, but I will admit that I can easily imagine a good bunch of your ‘average straight male gamer’ (if you get what I’m referring to) complaining about being ‘sexually harassed by big, hairy, gay norns’ while most female gamers would probably not really care.

Of course, this P.S. is written like a joke (thus not necesarily confirming that Linnea is lesbian, or bi to be more precise, nor that she is interested in other races either) and more importantly you can interpret it differently depending on your character, since Bjarni sending the exact same mail to anyone who helps him probably isn’t canon lore. But I like to read it as an indication that Norn have no problem with the topic, and more importantly that they may not apply a default heterosexuality to anyone who’s sexual orientation is unknown, like people tend to do IRL.
As for the interracial thingy if you happen to do this heart as a non-Norn, well… it wouldn’t be the first time in Norn culture : http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Prenuptial_Disagreement_%28female%29 (it’s interesting to note that in this case the devs actually felt the need to create two separate quests :p )

according to rumors, the main reason for caithe (and faolain, by proxy) being female, is simply because she is a self-insert of one of the lore designers of Anet.

Halcyon Havoc.7305:

They don’t reproduce, and I doubt they can have actual sex.

They can.

Their “gender” is selected by the Pale Tree prior to emergence and is distinguished by the same features as human genders; while sylvari can and do have sex, it is not for reproduction as sylvari can only be born from the Pale Tree.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sylvari#Physiology