Guild Wars 2

After going through all of the new update and hearing all the voice files and reading a few things online, I think I’ve figured out Caithe’s “secret”.

I believed she is the main reason Snaff died, infact.. I believe she flat out killed Snaff as a long-term means to an end.

I was curious as to what others might think about this theory? (And partly because this is the only secret that even has a chance of compelling me to care about this story at this point >_<)

It’s definitely an interesting theory, but I don’t know that it would make the most sense alongside the Edge of Destiny book. The events of the book follow the group up until their attempt to destroy Kralkatorrik, during which Snaff was killed after Logan ran off.

That said, your theory is still very interesting.

What exactly would be her reasoning for killing Snaff? For a Sylvari, and one with a Wyld Hunt, I’d think if she had the opportunity to kill a dragon she would, rather than make some roundabout method that involves not killing Kralk and killing Snaff, thus breaking apart DE

Snaff mind controlled Kralkatorrik but he was poorly defended because Logan ran back to Jennah.

I don’t see any motives. Why would Caithe kill Snaff?

Irikol.3495:

I was curious as to what others might think about this theory? (And partly because this is the only secret that even has a chance of compelling me to care about this story at this point >_<)

I think you have provided absolutely no supporting evidence to back up your claim and without it, you look like a raving lunatic. That’s what I think. As they say, SS or it didn’t happen.

I think that if they went that direction, not only would they be retconing Edge of Destiny in large scale that cannot be argued as anything but a retcon, as the novel shows Caithe trying to stop Branded from killing Snaff (some slip past her and she cannot catch up before they reach Snaff), but it’d also be retconing the in-game dialogue by both Caithe on multiple accounts (most easily seen being SE story mode’s concept art cinematic) and Eir – both of which state Snaff was killed by Kralkatorrik’s minions (aka Branded).

And if they made a retcon that big, then ArenaNet would have lost all saving grace.

It could be what “really” happened, but to me it seems the secret is from before Destiny’s Edge was formed. Besides that’s the point of a secret, no one knows. Hopefully it’s a good secret.

It’s probably related to this:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Caithe

(She is unusual in that while most sylvari are creatures of light, she has never feared “gazing into the darkness” to seek “truths that others fear.”)

The only reason Caithe would kill Snaff would be if he secreted wanted Kral ’s power for himself.

I think i want my 2 minutes back after reading this.

Kyrel.8942:

It could be what “really” happened

No, not really. Not without retconing the Edge of Destiny novel’s climax.

Most of the “this is wrong” statements about previously established lore use the foundation of subjective truths – it only works when we’re told something, not shown it. Edge of Destiny shows how Snaff dies, so we know the objective truth of it – there could be subjective views of it, but it doesn’t change the fact that Snaff was killed by Branded during the battle with Kralkatorrik.

Snaff died because the party healer DC’d just before the raid boss.

Icarus Pherae.4680:

Snaff died because the party healer DC’d just before the raid boss.

That, and Snaff didn’t Waypoint when he died, like, you’re fighting an ELDER DRAGON, you don’t wait for people to res you! And before everyone says you can’t wp while your party is in combat, this was pre-nerf.

The only thing I know of that would even hint at this is a snippet of a fanfic I encountered, where it was stated that Caithe foresaw Snaff’s death in her Dream and had to make sure it happened as fate planned it. Which is a creative idea, but that’s not how the Dream works. It can show potential futures, but never has it shown a future so set in stone that it has to happen so that the time stream won’t dissipate or whatever. Otherwise, every time a sylvari died before fulfilling their Wyld Hunt, the universe would collapse. Plus, if Caithe were that amoral, we would probably know by now.

So I could be completely off base here, but if this is where you got the idea, then…not everything in fanfic can be supported by canon. It might be an interesting what-if, but it’s not a viable theory.

Scarlet said also something about that Faolain doesn’t know it and she will gonna tell to her. So i believe it has to do something about Caithe herself or her relation to Faolain. If she really had killed Snaff then i guess Scarlet would run to Zojja instead to spread chaos between them. We do know that Scarlet knows something that would change the whole world, so maybe it has to do something with the Pale Tree or the Jungle Dragon. When i think about Snaff, i believe she is innocent.

Chris.4670:

Scarlet said also something about that Faolain doesn’t know it and she will gonna tell to her. So i believe it has to do something about Caithe herself or her relation to Faolain. If she really had killed Snaff then i guess Scarlet would run to Zojja instead to spread chaos between them. We do know that Scarlet knows something that would change the whole world, so maybe it has to do something with the Pale Tree or the Jungle Dragon. When i think about Snaff, i believe she is innocent.

I’m actually really curious about that. Don’t forget, they released Caithe and Scarlet as Minis during this patch too, which whilst isn’t incredibly important, generally minis are associated with the lore of the patch, so there could be some kind of symbolism.

I have to wonder if Scarlet really knows any secret of Caithe’s.

Keep in mind per this interview that Scarlet didn’t see what she thought she saw when she “witnessed the Eternal Alchemy” – specifically, what she thought she saw was the fate and design of the sylvari race, and the parallelness between the Pale Tree and Nightmare Court, and between Caithe and Faolain.

Even if Scarlet doesn’t know anything, at the very least we now know there’s a secret Caithe is hiding as she said as much.

I haven’t done the new dungeon path – and probably wont for another week and a half due to going out of town tomorrow – so excuse me if this is out of the ballpark and debunked… but I doubt it is given this discussion…

/putontinfoilhat

Caithe knows the true status of Mordremoth and its relation to the sylvari (if any – still holding to the suspicion of Nightmare Court = Mordremoth’s influence, thus showing that sylvari are not fully immune to Elder Dragon corruption), and has been keeping this secret from all. Which would explain Caithe’s overzealous “all Nightmare Courtiers must die, show no mercy” which she only shares for dragon minions elsewhere (except possibly the “no mercy” part), and would explain why she’d keep it away from Faolain… if the Nightmare Court actually knew the source of the Nightmare, they would try to herald it further.

/takeofftinfoilhat

Or, more likely, this is her secret. And we know Caithe’s been keeping that from Faolain, erased all knowledge of that from everyone, leaving only 4 individuals to know about it – herself, the sylvari PC, Trahearne, and Amaranda.

If either situation is accurate, then I have just instantly become 100 times more interested in Scarlet’s plot. Now if only ArenaNet wasn’t bent on spending 10 years to tell it.

If she knew for certain that there was no redemption possible for Nightmare Courtiers due to the influence of a dragon I’m not sure she would behave the way in TA story.

The Mallyck idea, however, is very interesting, it’s not so much of a personal secret, but at least [t_it censored…] it ties all three characters together (Scarlet has, or should have, after all, her own way of struggling with the question of Dream and Nightmare, meaning Mallyck is as important to her as to any other sylvari). There are only two ‘problems’. The first is considering Scarlet’s nearly unlimited capabilities and ressources, you’d think she would have found Malyck and his tree by now. The second is that considering how Malyck completely disappeared from even the late personnal story (where you could legitimately have expected him to make a return), I don’t think Anet is anywhere near ready to explore such an important part of the lore.
Any way, that would definitely get me interested, especially if it can make Scarlet a more plausible character by exploring her relationship to her own race and to the Dream.

Hmm. If the Nightmare Court is from Mordremoth’s influence, I wonder if the Forgotten’s cleansing spell/ritual from Arah would work on them. Random thought of the day I guess.

Mallyck is a good candidate from the secret. Scarlet would have an easy time finding his tree, since she has a fleet of airships. Though, im not sure why Scarlet would tell Faolain about it. If anything, I would have think she would want to study them herself, away from any outside influences. They aren’t under the sway of either the Dream or Nightmare(that we know of). They would make an excellent Sylvari “control group” for any experiments Scarlet might want to do.

If I had to guess though, on what the secret is going to be, I would guess that Anet might pull the whole “Scarlet believed what she saw was real” path. Scarlet tells Faolain that something or someone is manipulating: her, Caithe, their relationship, the Nightmare Court, and the Sylvari as a whole, and its not Ventari’s tablet. Needless to say, if Scarlet can produce proof of such manipulation, Faolain would be upset.

Now if they can tie that into Mordremoth’s influence, kudos to Anet.

Or maybe it’s something a bit more Jerry Springer-esc.

Scarlet: Hey Faolain! Did you here the news on Caithe?
Faolain: What?
Scarlet: She’s secretly seeing someone new. I hear it’s pretty serious, and it’s a man!
Faolain: RAWR

Well, you never know with Scarlet. The biggest reason that everyone kept the Malyck secret was because if the Nightmare Court knew they could likely just kill the Pale Tree and start over with a new “influenceless” one. At least, that is what I remember from playing that storyline around a year ago.

So… Scarlet telling Faolain could just be a way to instigate some major fighting between the Nightmare Court and the Pale Tree while she goes off on her own to study the new tree.

Tauril.8504:

If she knew for certain that there was no redemption possible for Nightmare Courtiers due to the influence of a dragon I’m not sure she would behave the way in TA story.

You haven’t played a sylvari have you… in just about every personal story dealing with Caithe, she goes on about how there is no redemption for the Nightmare Coutiers. This is shown the most during the Shield of the Moon storyline.

Tauril.8504:

The first is considering Scarlet’s nearly unlimited capabilities and resources, you’d think she would have found Malyck and his tree by now. The second is that considering how Malyck completely disappeared from even the late personal story (where you could legitimately have expected him to make a return), I don’t think Anet is anywhere near ready to explore such an important part of the lore.

I don’t see the first as an issue. What if she has found his tree? Maybe that’s how she knows.

The second is also not an issue either. Honestly, I’m unsurprised we don’t hear from Malyck in the later personal story (and glad, given how if we did, he would have been killed off most likely). We don’t know how many sylvari there are from his tree, nor how long it would take to convince them of a problem known as “Elder Dragons” – heck, maybe they have problems of their own (Mordremoth). He promised to return with an army… but if he cannot get that army? Then he’s just risk making his presence known to the Nightmare Court, and that would be counterproductive to the reason why his identity was kept secret in the first place.

Erukk.1408:

Or maybe it’s something a bit more Jerry Springer-esc.

Scarlet: Hey Faolain! Did you here the news on Caithe?
Faolain: What?
Scarlet: She’s secretly seeing someone new. I hear it’s pretty serious, and it’s a man!
Faolain: RAWR

Scarlet: And it’s not just a man… it’s Rytlock!
Faolain: -Attack all the charr.-

Narcemus.1348:

Well, you never know with Scarlet. The biggest reason that everyone kept the Malyck secret was because if the Nightmare Court knew they could likely just kill the Pale Tree and start over with a new “influenceless” one. At least, that is what I remember from playing that storyline around a year ago.

So… Scarlet telling Faolain could just be a way to instigate some major fighting between the Nightmare Court and the Pale Tree while she goes off on her own to study the new tree.

The instigation was my line of thought too. Though it’d risk the NC going to corrupt the new tree, that “new tree” is exactly what Scarlet’s wanting – so far as we know at least. So she’d be wanting to wipe out the controlling forces of her tree’s sylvari, and the best way to do that is to instigate a full out confrontation rather than guerrilla attacks on each other.

That could be a reason that she got all buddy-buddy with the NC in the first place and started building inside of their largest holdings. That way if things didn’t go according to plan her pirates there could keep them occupied so that she can get there first.

I’m not getting hyped. Since the fiasco that it was the suppossed great announcement of Queen Jennah. Which later we got in a short out-of-game note and didn’t have anything that mattered at all.

Better be something good, and something soon, too. This story has been stretched already too thin.

Nevertheless, the Malyck theory does sound intresting. But that would possibly imply new maps, and we’re not getting them at least until next year.

Could Scarlet/Ceara be one of the 3 remaining Firstborn that are still unnamed?

Does she know why Caithe chose to split with Faolain perhaps – it must have been something quite dramatic given how deeply involved those two were at the time when Faolain fell to the Nightmare Court. I’ve not paid close enough attention to Caithe’s dialogue with Scarlet in the new TA path; but does she speak of her as knowing her from way back?

Dondarrion.2748:

Could Scarlet/Ceara be one of the 3 remaining Firstborn that are still unnamed?

When Scarlet/Ceara was born, there were already Sylvari in the world, so no, she is not a firstborn.

From ‘What Scarlet Saw’:
Ceara emerged from the Dream and stepped forward, savoring the wet grass of the Grove beneath her feet. With her eyes still closed, she inhaled, taking in the fresh scent of living things all around her.

“Welcome, sapling.” The voice was kind, the tone gentle. “My name is Mender Serimon. You are safe here.”

Ceara is of at least third generation sylvari. No older.

Caithe split up with Faolain because thwarted turned willingly to the Nightmare.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Or, more likely, this is her secret. And we know Caithe’s been keeping that from Faolain, erased all knowledge of that from everyone, leaving only 4 individuals to know about it – herself, the sylvari PC, Trahearne, and Amaranda.

There is the possibility that Caithe and Scarlet were affected by the other tree in some way. That would explain their common unique Sylvari personalities or mindsets that are in some ways similar to Malyck’s.

We do know that both Caithe and Scarlet come from the Pale Tree (given that Caithe is a firstborn and PT was able to interact with Scarlet during her encounter with the Eternal Alchemy). Maybe the other tree freed them from the whole Dream/Nightmare situation.

The dungeon tells us that whatever her secret is. It’s “nasty” or something to the effect of what Caithe did was “nasty”

Malyck doesn’t seem to fit with “nasty” at least not to me.

So what could have Caithe done that even Scarlet would consider nasty? Whatever it is I am sure it’s probably not as exciting as we are all hoping.

This all might have far less breadth than we imagine. It could all be very close to the “what Scarlet saw” short story. After her supervillain inducing experiment, Scarlet immediately mentioned that she understood Caithe and Faolin, of all people, so they might be key to something. I’m guessing that something is nightmare, and Caithe has done things involving nightmare than even Faolin doesn’t know.

The story I’d like is for Caithe to know her wyld hunt is not finished even after the death of Zaitan. He was not the dragon she was looking for but she pretended that it was. I doubt that will happen though.

zamalek.2154:

We do know that both Caithe and Scarlet come from the Pale Tree (given that Caithe is a firstborn and PT was able to interact with Scarlet during her encounter with the Eternal Alchemy). Maybe the other tree freed them from the whole Dream/Nightmare situation.

Fact correction: Per a TowerTalk interview, Scarlet “did not see what she thought she saw” with the Eternal Alchemy. That machine that Omadd put her in was a sensory deprivation device.

This means that Scarlet merely lost all sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. This would – theoretically, as I do not think people actually did experiments to prove this – lead people to effective feel nothing. They would have only their thoughts. They wouldn’t even be sure if they were still alive since they wouldn’t even be able to feel their own heartbeat or know if they’re breathing. This may be why Omadd’s previous test subjects all died – they may have simply forgot to keep breathing.

This also means that what Scarlet saw was effectively a hallucination. Meaning what she saw… wasn’t real. Meaning if you go ask the Pale Tree about that conversation, she’d go “what conversation with Ceara?”

This said, though, Scarlet Briar aka Ceara is indeed from the Pale Tree.

KOPPER.1458:

The dungeon tells us that whatever her secret is. It’s “nasty” or something to the effect of what Caithe did was “nasty”

Malyck doesn’t seem to fit with “nasty” at least not to me.

So what could have Caithe done that even Scarlet would consider nasty? Whatever it is I am sure it’s probably not as exciting as we are all hoping.

I haven’t done the dungeon yet. Can’t for a while still. But if it’s Scarlet calling it nasty, then that’s not saying much.

Scarlet has a superiority complex (per Scott McGough during said mentioned TowerTalk interview). And her believing she saw Eternal Alchemy only made it worse. Anything and anyone who tried wronging her is instantly wrong and the universe needs to be fixed to punish that person – hence why she says what she did at the end of Scarlet’s Playhouse.

If this secret simply hindered Scarlet in any way at all, then of course she’d call it nasty. Because it hindered or harmed Scarlet. And that just should never have happened, because she’s so great. In her mind, the only thing that can and may be allowed to be harmful or a hindrance to her… is the Elder Dragons. Maybe the Six Gods. Maybe.

Stooperdale.3560:

Caithe has done things involving nightmare than even Faolin doesn’t know.

Hmmm? What has Caithe done involving the Nightmare? That Faolain doesn’t know about?

Stooperdale.3560:

The story I’d like is for Caithe to know her wyld hunt is not finished even after the death of Zaitan. He was not the dragon she was looking for but she pretended that it was. I doubt that will happen though.

Elaborate please.

And do take note: A sylvari can receive a new Wyld Hunt after completing their previous. They aren’t limited to a single Wyld Hunt in their entire life.

I’m looking over most of this and, being interested in a game’s lore, I have been thinking about that conversation with Caithe and Scarlet ever since the dungeon.

Something I do want to know about, what exactly are Scarlet’s motives? My only guess is that she plans to take over the world. I mean let’s connect the dots..

Possible Spoilers Below

— The Molten Alliance: First of the enemies that she controls right? However this was focused on the Norn and Charr, driving refugees into Hoelbrak and the Black Citadel and not to mention taking prisoners as slaves to work in the weapon facilities.
— The Aetherblades: Sky Pirates that actually had help from the Inquest, why do I say Inquest? I remember during the story mission that Inquest Golems were also foes you fought when the Aetherblades invaded Lion’s Arch. However, leading these Pirates was someone I think we should think about a lot more…

Captain Mai Trin who was not only leading the attack, but was trying to remain disguised as a healer to Win a spot on the Captain’s Council and when she had failed this mission, she finally mentioned the name of this new villain… Scarlet. What happened to Mai? She’s locked up in Lion’s Arch, she is still alive.. I see her being key character in this whole story.

So in general, what did Scarlet actually do..

— Drove Norn and Charr refugee’s from their home, making them seek shelter and work which brought the sudden problems going on with the Consortium at Southsun Cove.
—Tried getting this Captain Mai Trin on the Lion’s Arch Captain’s Council, what for? Why do this if Scarlet is some insane woman seeking for the world’s destruction?
—Caused chaos during the Queen’s Gauntlet. She was after Queen Jennah… why? I can understand that she finally wanted to make her introduction into a Grand Event. Why would she have hatred for Queen Jennah? Or was she just having a psycho-fun and Queen Jennah happened to be a random target?

Now we have this new Twilight Assault.. and another piece of the puzzle fell in our lap. Caithe. Scarlet knows something about Caithe, and I think Caithe is not only annoyed by it, but the fact she pushes herself in hunting down Scarlet tells us something. Caithe believes Scarlet knows something, and Caithe is trying to hide it by killing Scarlet. What could Caithe of done that even Faolin doesn’t know? This comes up with just a few theories…

—Nightmare: Is Caithe dwelling further into the Nightmare, so far that Faolin didn’t even realize what was going on?
—Murder: When it comes to mysterious secrets, murder can fall into that category. Did Caithe murder someone, someone special and/or innocent for her own means? Caithe herself is a mysterious character, it is even said that people do not know if she is truely good or evil. Do I see her putting the Sylvari above all the other races? Do we see her putting survival above allies?

Saying all this, it is just theory. But connecting the pieces, it’s good to see what we may of missed or forgotten. We can’t forget about Captain Mai Trin, a possible purposeful hatred for Queen Jennah, and this ‘nasty secret’ involving Caithe.

The secret of Caithe…. she is a vegetarian.

I see Mai Trin as just a pawn for Scarlet, seeing as the Aetherblades are basically hostage to her. The main goal was to get someone on the Council, so Mai was a better option than Scarlet (because even after the name change, some people would know who she was).
As for the ‘nasty secret’, given the info that Konig just reiterated, I think Scarlet’s just a nutcase now, claiming to have a secret to lure Caithe and kill her. Caithe is just annoyed at whatever Scarlet’s planning, seeing as her character has no problem with murdering people (replay a sylvari character, the first 30 levels she’s a bloodthirsty thief).

But Caithe does have a secret. Scarlet could be bluffing for all we know, but in the end Caithe happens to have a secret.

She gave candy to diabetics childrens

No, OP’s right, he just approached it from the wrong direction.

Logan went to kite branded so his leet mesmer girlfriend could finish the ritual (probably it was an event similar to the security lvl breaching in CoE). Snaff got downed then defeated, closest WP was in Ebonhawke. All would’ve been well if not for Caithe’s actions a couple of months ago…

Y’know, Zojja and Snaff hacked the PvP arena in Lion’s Arch when they fought with Edge of Steel – changing the map composition pre-match is a nasty cheat. Caithe being the silent, repressed hater immediately reported Snaff, though pre-launch report system was kinda primitive with little to no options – especially for hacking. It got lost in the countless beta tester reports and bug notes. In the meantime they became friends, Caithe forgave the offense, but also forgot the report.

And so it came that Mod Dhuum broke free of the Hall of Judgement detention around the same time the Kralkatorrik raid began. Mod Grenth was busy cleaning up Zhaitan’s DDOS attacks, viruses, Trojans, and zombie keyloggers as well as Jormag’s Icebrood.exe in the Mists archive blue screen freezing the kitten out of both his Underworld Explorer and Mozilla Coldfire Night (all the while his mom was sending him links to cute animal pics that Melandru shared with her, Balthazar mailing him 9gag posts, Manowar youtube videos, and Spartacus memes, Ilya chatting with him on FB behind her sister’s back – which led to a HUGE catfight – AND having to listen to Kormir’s psychological babbling about Abaddon’s lingering effects on her mind)… so yeah, Grenth was too busy to notice the “Ban Troll” going through ALL the reports and starting to ban EVERYONE – including those who posted harmless armor glitch issues. And so it came that Dhuum reached Caithe’s report about Snaff… grabbing his banscythe, Dhuum terminated Snaff’s account – he couldn’t find Caithe as she was stealthing around. But due to a weird glitch (probably having to do something with Kralkatorrik’s enormous polygon count kittening up all textures) his character’s corpse was permanently stuck in-game.

Scarlet of course, being the terrible Villain Sue she is, found this out, flooded Grenth’s rig with NewSoul.exes and while he and his Reapers were lost in the organizational nightmare, she beat the unliving skeleton out of Dhuum to tell her about Caithe. Dhuum confessed everything, and Scarlet being Scarlet, could accomplish what even a demi-god couldn’t: she threw Dhuum’s profile into the Voidbin. Now Dhuum is not only without GW2… he’s also jobless.

… Anyway, I should go looking for the pics Ilya and Lyss sent to Grenth. cough