Guild Wars 2

I never really thought about it before because so far the dragons have been so far apart it’s never come up, but then I saw the situation in the screen shot below.

That’s one of Mordremoth’s vines stopping just short of the Dragon Brand. Now it could just be coincidence that it stops there, but to me it looks very much like they cannot cross the Brand. Which made me wonder about the ‘mobile corruption’ in the form of dragon minions and whether they can be cross-corrupted.

I would assume you can’t get undead or icebrood mordrem for the same reason you can’t get undead or icebrood sylvari – you can’t have an undead plant and a frozen one would wither. We don’t know yet how Mordremoth makes it’s minions, whether it corrupts existing beings or grows them from scratch.

But what would happen if, for example, the ice brood made their way south and encountered the risen (before Zhaitan was killed). Could they become risen themselves?

I don’t know if it’s ever been discussed, or if anything official has been said, but I’d be interested to find out.

Actually, we have seen plants corrupted by Zhaitan- all over Orr, and also in Sparkfly Fen.

Nitpicking aside, now, we have seen a creature corrupted by multiple dragons in artificial conditions- the end bosses of CoE, both story and explorable, are such. Whether it could happen in the wild, and what the state of mind of such a creature would be (i.e. which dragon it would serve)… those are much more interesting questions, which we have no answer to. An even more interesting related question (which may risk hijacking your thread; I profusely apologize if that occurs): knowing that corruption is no sure protection against other corruption, does that mean one Elder Dragon could corrupt another?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

knowing that corruption is no sure protection against other corruption, does that mean one Elder Dragon could corrupt another?

Now that is an interesting question. Maybe that’s part of why they’re so far apart?

Although from what we’ve seen the dragons seem to be roughly equally powerful, so maybe they’d be able to resist the corruption?

We don’t see cross-corruption in the open world. However, as Aaron mentioned, we have two cases of cross-corrupted beings (Kudu’s Monster and Subject Alpha) which are corrupted by Primordus, Jormag, Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan – and in Alpha’s case, Mordremoth as well.

Some people use this as claiming there’s no “natural” way to do it and in turn use this for the dreaded and practically debunked “sylvari are dragon minions” ‘theory’ but in all honesty: if it can be done, then it can be done. There’s no asura out there I’ve ever seen capable of messing around with nature to the point where they can create things not possible at all in natural scenarios (given that 99.9999999 with a lot of 9s % of what they do is tech based not bio based).

Also as Aaron said, we do see corrupted plants – corrupted by Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan, if not others too. Bloodtide Coast, Sparkly Fen, and all across Orr we see corrupted plants and corrupted living beings by Zhaitan (well, in the later, scratch out Orr).

Furthermore, despite there being many branded plants, Kralkatorrik’s corruption is the second of the two examples presented for “sylvari cannot be corrupted” scenarios.

And finally: we now know the reason why sylvari cannot be corrupted: the Dream, via the Pale Tree. Without either, sylvari can be corrupted.

The reason sylvari can be corrupted by Mordremoth is questionable. Both cases we know they were disconnected from the Dream – so maybe Soundless are vulnerable but no Soundless have ever been corrupted before. Alternatively, it could be the Nightmare (said to be irreversible and acts rather similar to Aerin and Scarlet – except subtract the schizophrenia, and we have the Nightmare Pods in Silverwastes). I suspect that in E8, we’ll see the introduction of Nightmare into the Dream (it’s said that Caithe and Faolain both encountered it in the past, though iirc it was said to be in Orr maybe this has been retconned as that may have been an interview, and while Caithe pulled back Faolain didn’t – maybe that’s Caithe’s secret – introducing Mordremoth’s corruption into the Dream, making the entire race vulnerable to him).

@Danikat That would have interesting implications of its own- it would mean, for instance, that Primordus, after 207 years of refilling from his natural lowest, is not sufficiently more powerful than Mordremoth, who has had less than a year (although, arguably, he may have not hit his usual lowest due to Scarlet’s interference, although that also… bah. Getting sidetracked.) For two centuries to mean so proportionately little, each dragon must awake while still possessing massive reservoirs of unexuded magic, or else that the dragons consume magic at a very slow rate. It would also mean opportunism could tip the scales at this point- with Zhaitan’s death, whoever gets the bulk of his power (especially if the reservoir hypothesis is true) may well be able to outclass the others enough to dominate them, and that possibility would only grow the more dragons we slay. All, of course, contingent on it coming down to a brute comparison of power levels-perhaps the nature of dragon ‘spheres’ is such that no dragon can control more than one (or two, however you want to interpret the data)? Or perhaps draining such a quantity of magic would take a prolonged period of time, more than they’re likely to have? That could explain how Orr wasn’t tapped out, even after more than a century at the heart of Zhaitan’s territory…

It’s been said that dragon minions would likely fight each, which seems logical, because if Sylvari are truly Mordremoth creations, they resist and desire to kill Zhaitan, it’s unclear where that desire stems from, maybe the Pale Tree seeks killing Zhaitan and other dragons. I doubt that you’d see minions killing each other, and different dragons work differently, the Acura subjects in COE are infused with dragon energy, not actually corrupted. We know a lot about how different dragons corrupt, Primordius does not corrupt, his minions are simply created, to my understanding, Zhaitan raises the dead. Kralkatorrik’s breath brands his minions, and Jormags minions generally seem to accept his influence as he more or less seeks to corrupt the thoughts and minds of his minions, with promises of power. It’s said the DSD generates it’s minions from water, much like Primordius does from lava possibly, and Mordremoth isn’t clear yet. Some of Mordremoths minions do appear to be corrupted Wildlife, but he doesn’t seem to corrupt, what we know of, the more important and intelligent species. Understanding these corruptions seems to suggest that they could overlap, but also that each is uniquely corrupted, theoretically zhaitans minions are dead, and to another dragon they’re a lifeless corpse that they can’t corrupt. It’s a tough call, but if say they cannot corrupt each other or their minions. Ultimately dragons are interested in magic, which every life form carries and they want to consume all uncorrupted magic, so they probably aren’t even interested in other dragons or their minions, but they’d likely be competition.

@mushroomz couple flaw with your analysis. First, we do very much have sylvari battling Mordrem right now, and mordrem attacked, potentially fatally, the Pale Tree. Second, we know, for instance, that Jormag can also corrupt corpses, and from an out-of-game source that Primordus can corrupt the living (it was presented in relation to what we see in the Volcanic Fractal). As for the CoE subjects, we know they were physically altered by the energies to become identical to dragon minions, and we know nothing of their mental state. (As I recall, we never actually saw them getting along with the Inquest as they were supposed to- and even if they did, we saw in Arah mursaat path that Inquest had figured out how to control Zhaitan-created risen, so it wouldn’t be telling if they did). If it looks like a dragon minion, and is omni-directionally hostile like a dragon minion, why would you think it isn’t a dragon minion?

It’s tough to say how dragon influence works, but it doesn’t seem to be that simple, Mawdrey is all elder dragon, and yet doesn’t follow Mordremoth, instead it’s a vine on your back that gives you gifts for magic dust and protects you a bit. You’re also deviating from the main question, can ED minions corrupt each other? So what if Jormag can corrupt the dead and Primordus can corrupt the living? That doesn’t really counter the main argument. Anyways, the answer isn’t clear, but this has been a big question for ages, as dragon energy remains very mysterious. There also just aren’t any instances yet where their territory has any significant overlapping.

Given that your argument on the main question was predicated on the idea that dragons can only corrupt certain things, I feel my response was relevant. We are agreed, though, that more data is needed to provide a definitive answer.

You did raise an interesting point I missed on my first read through, so another question to the list: can elder dragons feed on magic corrupted by other dragons?

Mushroomz.4280:

It’s been said that dragon minions would likely fight each,

But only if they wander into each others’ territory. And this has actually been called into question in an interview with Angel McCoy (yet another retcon of Ree Soesbee interviews it seems…) in which her response was effectively “it’s speculated they fight, but unknown”.

Mushroomz.4280:

if Sylvari are truly Mordremoth creations

I have yet to see any sufficient amount of evidence that points to this hypothesis that cannot be easily debunked.

Mushroomz.4280:

they resist and desire to kill Zhaitan, it’s unclear where that desire stems from, maybe the Pale Tree seeks killing Zhaitan and other dragons.

The Pale Tree is fighting all Elder Dragons – including Mordremoth. Where your very first statement fails – sylvari fight Mordrem, Mordrem assault sylvari in pre-emptive strikes.

Mushroomz.4280:

the Acura subjects in COE are infused with dragon energy, not actually corrupted.

Same thing, really. Just different method. The end result is still corruption. The method of corruption is the only change.

Mushroomz.4280:

We know a lot about how different dragons corrupt, Primordius does not corrupt, his minions are simply created, to my understanding, Zhaitan raises the dead. Kralkatorrik’s breath brands his minions, and Jormags minions generally seem to accept his influence as he more or less seeks to corrupt the thoughts and minds of his minions, with promises of power. It’s said the DSD generates it’s minions from water, much like Primordius does from lava possibly, and Mordremoth isn’t clear yet.

• Primordus does corrupt – though he usually doesn’t corrupt living beings but instead lava and land; it has been stated in an interview by Jeff Grubb, Scott McGough, and Ree Soesbee that Primordus is very much capable of corrupting living beings.
• Zhaitan is also seen corrupting the living (both plant and animal) as well as the land. Corrupting the dead is simply Zhaitan’s preference – like corrupting land and lava is Primordus’.
• It’s more than just Kralkatorrik’s breath – that’s how he made his first batch of modern minions and how he made the Dragonbrand, but in Iron Marches we can see crystals imprisoning Sentinels, and corrupting them.
• While it is Jormag’s preferred method to convince minions to join him willingly before corruption, both icebrood and Sons of Svanri have been seen corrupting in other means (though primarily Sons of Svanir).

Point being: While it is true that each Elder Dragon has an apparent preference for corruption, they are all capable of equal corruption.

Mushroomz.4280:

Some of Mordremoths minions do appear to be corrupted Wildlife, but he doesn’t seem to corrupt, what we know of, the more important and intelligent species.

Sylvari don’t count as important and intelligent species?

Mushroomz.4280:

another dragon they’re a lifeless corpse that they can’t corrupt.

Jormag has been seen corrupting corpses (Edge of Destiny novel) – and in fact, icebrood end up as skeletons encased in ice by the time they’ve reached full-on corruption. I imagine Kralkatorrik, who has twisted the very land itself, is capable of twisting physical corpses too.

So the argument fails there.

If a dragon cannot corrupt another dragon’s magic or minions, then it is because they are corrupted, not because of their state of existence.

Mushroomz.4280:

It’s tough to say how dragon influence works, but it doesn’t seem to be that simple, Mawdrey is all elder dragon, and yet doesn’t follow Mordremoth, instead it’s a vine on your back that gives you gifts for magic dust and protects you a bit.

This isn’t entirely true.

First off, we know a good deal on how dragon influence works. Their minions lack free will. They cannot make choices that deviate from serving their dragon. But there are means of returning free will back – such as with Glint. Whether this has happened to Mawdrey or not is unclear, but the ritual used on Glint has been stated to require specific geological locations and is not well understood – we fed the generations of vines various magical objects attuned by various magical locations – from ley line dust to Foefire magic (Foefire magic known to alter mentalities, btw). Such combinations of things could have given free will to one of the three generations.

Secondly, I’m not exactly sure Mawdrey is “good”. Maybe just too small to cause harm. After all, it’s “tenderly” trying to wrap around you… and Mordrem vines are known to strangulate. Mawdrey (and the lesser versions) could very well be a ticking bomb, so to speak.

Mushroomz.4280:

So what if Jormag can corrupt the dead and Primordus can corrupt the living? That doesn’t really counter the main argument.

But it is important to take note of. Why?

Because it shows that Elder Dragons have preferences.

Maybe instead of “they can’t corrupt other dragons’ minions” it is “they don’t want to corrupt other dragons’ minions.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jormag has been seen corrupting corpses (Edge of Destiny novel) – and in fact, icebrood end up as skeletons encased in ice by the time they’ve reached full-on corruption.

I wonder though… Is that because Jormag actually corrupted existing corpses into Icebrood? Or is it a case of the victim’s flesh actually being turned into ice (which builds up more and more as the corruption proceeds), until all that’s left is just the skeleton surrounded by masses of ice? (Haven’t read the novel, so I wasn’t sure if it actually described Jormag corrupting corpses. That just sounds a bit too much like Zhaitan’s domain.)

In the novel, it’s definitely corrupting corpses- one of the icebrood was described as having had his face smashed in.

Konig, you bring up some good counters, I was not aware of these details from outside sources about what some of the other dragons can corrupt, as they’re never actually shown in game, and I haven’t read the books first hand. I was aware Zhaitan can corrupt the living, but it only seemed to occur in minor ways, most fights detailed in the game usually go along the lines of a bunch of Risen kill a group of people, Zhaitan raises them from the dead, and so on. But you are right to point out that his alternative methods of corruption do exist, they’re just less commonly used.

I think though dragon minions cannot be corrupted by another dragon still though, there is an exception I will get to. If you recall of Zhaitan’s minions, it seemed as if he could see and talk through some, or possibly all of them, it is right to describe it as a Hive Mind, I’d think once you’re assimilated to a hive, you cannot join another. However this leads to an interesting question, when the hive master, such as Zhaitan is no longer present, what happens?

Another thing is, recorruption has yet to be seen, according to Glint’s case, it can’t really be fully reversed with living organisms either. This is further backed up with Zhaitan’s death, so they say, the corruption of Orr is reversing, though it’s not been shown yet. It seems unlike, that these risen humans, for the most part, would ever go back to being ordinary Orrian people, they’d probably just die again. But even then, we haven’t actually SEEN any corruption get fully reversed. Then there’s Tequatl, whom was empowered by Zhaitan’s death. So there’s a lot of various things that really aren’t all that clear. But to sum it up, since it hasn’t been shown, it’s more likely not possible, or perhaps an oversight that hasn’t been important enough to show. Subject Alpha does show one can be corrupted multiple times, but there’s nothing shown in regards to it’s loyalty, like all dragon minions, it seeks to kill uncorrupted life.

Last thing I want to address, is this gets into the nature of magic, which is basically the Eternal Alchemy, and Ogden describes it as the more you try to define it, the less you actually understand. There’s also “The All” which seems to be a slightly different version of the Eternal Alchemy, but both ultimately try to explain the nature of magic and the universe and what not. The important thing to draw from these is they suggest different regions of power, Omadd’s Machine’s vision depicts six regions of power, which may conclude that these are all different types of magic that fight for a central “neutral” magic, ultimately they simply may not be able to convert from type to type, but only for whatever type to or from the neutral type. Of course, this isn’t fully explained yet.

The Eternal Alchemy/The All may also explain that they CAN corrupt each other, something I didn’t initially think about. The theory is that too much of one type can put the world off balance. Of course, this cannot be answer yet. There’s too many questions, like how does an Elder Dragon consume everything? Why didn’t they do it in a previous cycle? Can they consume all magic? And of course, the Eternal Alchemy refers to the whole world, the Elder Dragons don’t seem to have a global influence, which gets confusing, because if they’re so important to the Eternal Alchemy, how do they only effect the continent of Tyria? There’s plenty of magic elsewhere in the world.

But to the original question, I’d say assume no, until it happens.
With the current state of Tyria, the elder dragons don’t need to fight each other for more minions anyways, they do seem to avoid each others presence, otherwise, they could, theoretically, team up and easily kill everyone with ease, which, if they can’t corrupt it’s others minions, it may make sense not to waste minions on each other unless necessary.

Mushroomz.4280:

the Elder Dragons don’t seem to have a global influence, which gets confusing, because if they’re so important to the Eternal Alchemy, how do they only effect the continent of Tyria?

While they were clumped when they awoke, the deep sea dragon seems to be entirely clear of Tyria, and Jormag and Primordus also do not seem to be themselves on what we consider continental Tyria, with only offshoots poking into our territory. If Kralkatorrik left the Crystal Desert (we can’t say either way yet, but the fact that the Priory and Zephyrites were able to mount expeditions into the desert seems to suggest it), that just leaves Zhaitan and the recently awakened Mordremoth in Tyria, with the others spreading out elsewhere into the world.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

In the novel, it’s definitely corrupting corpses- one of the icebrood was described as having had his face smashed in.

Exactly what I was referring to.

So unless a norn can survive his face being smashed in, Jormag corrupted a corpse.

Mushroomz.4280:

I was aware Zhaitan can corrupt the living, but it only seemed to occur in minor ways, most fights detailed in the game usually go along the lines of a bunch of Risen kill a group of people, Zhaitan raises them from the dead, and so on. But you are right to point out that his alternative methods of corruption do exist, they’re just less commonly used.

The most obvious case of living corruption is Kellach and Necromancer Rissa, but there’s also a heart in Bloodtide Coast with sickened quaggan caused by Zhaitan’s spreading corruption, and another heart in Sparkfly Fen where wildlife has consumed risen bodies which in turn corrupts them and the plantlife near the corpses. The corrupt plants hold a similar effect to Kellach’s skin – some sort of underneath-the-skin/bark pulsating growth appearance. Almost like the body’s rotting from the inside out. The hearts themselves seem to be typical illnesses that’s hard to cure – likely the first stages of living-corrupted-by-Zhaitan.

Mushroomz.4280:

I think though dragon minions cannot be corrupted by another dragon still though, there is an exception I will get to. If you recall of Zhaitan’s minions, it seemed as if he could see and talk through some, or possibly all of them, it is right to describe it as a Hive Mind, I’d think once you’re assimilated to a hive, you cannot join another. However this leads to an interesting question, when the hive master, such as Zhaitan is no longer present, what happens?

Dragon minions do have hive minds – this is true for icebrood just as much as Zhaitan. But there’s no evidence of Zhaitan speaking through his minions – and he could only see through the Eyes, no others. More intelligent minions exist – the dragons’ champions – whom are capable of speaking of their own accord. However, since dragon minions lack free will (this is what the Forgotten ritual returns to the corrupted – a free will), all of their words will be of their dragons’ perspective and viewpoint, but from a lower rank in the hierarchy.

We actually see what happens to minions when they lose their “hive master” as you put it – Arah explorable is exactly this. And the change is: none. They still think and act as if Zhaitan is alive (or “undead” if you go with that theory).

Mushroomz.4280:

Another thing is, recorruption has yet to be seen, according to Glint’s case, it can’t really be fully reversed with living organisms either.

You have to keep in mind that the only creature ever uncorrupted is Glint (and a risen chicken); her children do not seem to be corrupted (per Gleam in GW1, though Gleam’s fate is unknown), and Kralkatorrik clearly opted to kill rather than recorrupt. The question is: is this because he couldn’t, or because he wouldn’t?

Keep in mind that the Forgotten ritual doesn’t actually cleanse corruption, but instills free will on the subject. So those who have free will are unaffected by the ritual (including the sylvari who was standing with the risen chicken in hand). So technically, no creature has ever been truly uncorrupted.

Mushroomz.4280:

This is further backed up with Zhaitan’s death, so they say, the corruption of Orr is reversing, though it’s not been shown yet. It seems unlike, that these risen humans, for the most part, would ever go back to being ordinary Orrian people, they’d probably just die again. But even then, we haven’t actually SEEN any corruption get fully reversed.

The risen chicken remained risen in appearance. The reversal of corruption by Trahearne was not so much a “reversal” but more of an “overriding”. He brought life to a land of death – the “land of death” was the corruption. We do see the beginning of this “reversal” at the end of The Source of Orr, where we see trees grow over the corruption.

Mushroomz.4280:

Then there’s Tequatl, whom was empowered by Zhaitan’s death.

We actually do not know why, what, who, or how Tequatl was empowered. “Zhaitan’s death” is just the most common theory, but a theory all the same.

Mushroomz.4280:

But to sum it up, since it hasn’t been shown, it’s more likely not possible, or perhaps an oversight that hasn’t been important enough to show.

This is a very poor argument. Just because we don’t see it in-game doesn’t mean it isn’t possible or doesn’t exist. With your argument, you may as well say Cantha doesn’t exist, for we do not see it in-game.

Mushroomz.4280:

Subject Alpha does show one can be corrupted multiple times, but there’s nothing shown in regards to it’s loyalty, like all dragon minions, it seeks to kill uncorrupted life.

Loyalty isn’t the question – multiple corruptions is. And Alpha is capable of controlling all minions in CoE – even getting them to be nice to each other.

Mushroomz.4280:

Last thing I want to address, is this gets into the nature of magic, which is basically the Eternal Alchemy, and Ogden describes it as the more you try to define it, the less you actually understand. There’s also “The All” which seems to be a slightly different version of the Eternal Alchemy, but both ultimately try to explain the nature of magic and the universe and what not. The important thing to draw from these is they suggest different regions of power, Omadd’s Machine’s vision depicts six regions of power, which may conclude that these are all different types of magic that fight for a central “neutral” magic, ultimately they simply may not be able to convert from type to type, but only for whatever type to or from the neutral type. Of course, this isn’t fully explained yet.

The six orbs are the Elder Dragons (stated in journal for that story step); the central orb is Tyria (proven in Hidden Arcana if you talk to a certain Priory Historian). The orb that crashed into Tyria was Zhaitan (according to the Priory’s labelling). Priory scholars believe that the orbs also represent realms of magic, but that’s in-game speculation still. There’s no actual evidence of more than four types of magic energy (those four being light, dark, chaos, and a fourth unnamed one that deals with elements/nature) beyond dragon corruption/dragon energy (which itself may have six forms – one per dragon).

Mushroomz.4280:

the Elder Dragons don’t seem to have a global influence, which gets confusing, because if they’re so important to the Eternal Alchemy, how do they only effect the continent of Tyria? There’s plenty of magic elsewhere in the world.

There’s several theories and potential answers.

First thing to keep in mind is that we don’t know where the DSD is or awoke. Similarly, Kralkatorrik and Primordus may no longer be near continental Tyria (or rather, sub-continental Tyria). Thirdly, Jormag actually awoke far north of (sub)continental Tyria – he awoke near the arctic seas, where the kodan lived – and while he’s pushing south, he’s not actually in (sub)continental Tyria.

And speaking of the last cycle: except for where Zhaitan fell asleep and his name being in ancient legends/documents, there’s nothing to point to Zhaitan having been around (sub)continental Tyria during hte last dragonrise – in fact, we have evidence to claim he wasn’t there (or at least, wasn’t at Orr): Arah is where Glint was freed of control, so that couldn’t have been Zhaitan’s seat of power then (no way would the Forgotten free Kralkatorrik’s champion underneath Zhaitan’s nose). Similarly, Jormag has little – albeit more – influence from the previous rise than Zhaitan (his being Sanguinary Blade and Drakkar – beyond that, just mention in ancient legends/documents); Mordremoth, like Zhaitan, had zero known influence in Tyria during the last dragonrise.

Primordus and Kralkatorrik, however – especially Kralkatorrik – did have more direct influence in (sub)continental Tyria during the last dragonrise. Dwarves fought many Great Destroyers in the depths, and Kralkatorrik had battled in the Crystal Sea/Crystal Desert, with his champion in Orr, and hibernating in the now-called Blood Legion Homelands.

So why did they all end up falling asleep around (sub)continental Tyria when they were apparently awake elsewhere? The common thought: Bloodstone. It was the one last source of magic in the world, and supposedly hidden in (sub)continental Tyria.

Mushroomz.4280:

But to the original question, I’d say assume no, until it happens.

Thing is, it did happen. Twice.

And I’ve yet to see any evidence to support the notion that the Inquest are capable of doing things not naturally possible (like the common gene-splicing example people throw for “things made in a lab don’t represent things made in nature!”).

Mushroomz.4280:

With the current state of Tyria, the elder dragons don’t need to fight each other for more minions anyways, they do seem to avoid each others presence, otherwise, they could, theoretically, team up and easily kill everyone with ease, which, if they can’t corrupt it’s others minions, it may make sense not to waste minions on each other unless necessary.

This is a good explanation for why it isn’t (commonly) seen in the open world. But it doesn’t really point to “it can’t happen.” Just “it doesn’t (commonly) happen.”

Aside from any lore reasons, hybrid minions, like Mordem destroyers and branded undead would be cringe-inducing bad fiction, and should never be given serious consideration.

Wanderer.3248:

Aside from any lore reasons, hybrid minions, like Mordem destroyers and branded undead would be cringe-inducing bad fiction, and should never be given serious consideration.

Eh. Subject Alpha wasn’t bad. It’s just something that needs to be used sparingly- kinda like how throwing colors together just tends to result in brown, breaking down what makes minions distinct could very easily result in something unappealing.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mushroomz.4280:

Subject Alpha does show one can be corrupted multiple times, but there’s nothing shown in regards to it’s loyalty, like all dragon minions, it seeks to kill uncorrupted life.

Loyalty isn’t the question – multiple corruptions is. And Alpha is capable of controlling all minions in CoE – even getting them to be nice to each other.

Actually, loyalty is a question. Konig, you have mentioned several times that corrupted beings have no free will and must follow the will of their masters. Who is subject alpha’s master?

I think the earlier reference that the subjects were not truly corrupted and only injected with corruption is the best explanation of the test subjects.

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mushroomz.4280:

Subject Alpha does show one can be corrupted multiple times, but there’s nothing shown in regards to it’s loyalty, like all dragon minions, it seeks to kill uncorrupted life.

Loyalty isn’t the question – multiple corruptions is. And Alpha is capable of controlling all minions in CoE – even getting them to be nice to each other.

I think the earlier reference that the subjects were not truly corrupted and only injected with corruption is the best explanation of the test subjects.

Might I ask why? This stance doesn’t seem to follow from your preceding statement on the uncertainty of Subject Alpha’s loyalty.

DarcShriek.5829:

Actually, loyalty is a question. Konig, you have mentioned several times that corrupted beings have no free will and must follow the will of their masters. Who is subject alpha’s master?

I think the earlier reference that the subjects were not truly corrupted and only injected with corruption is the best explanation of the test subjects.

Unless a writer steps in to answer, or they have Zojja release info regarding the CoE projects, I don’t think we’ll ever really be able to answer that now that Kudu’s dead.

While it wasn’t Alpha, Kudu was seemingly able to get his monster under his control. Though, since we have zero information on the possible experiments and magically mental whammies needed to achieve that, it would be hard to really hazard a good guess on what they used on the Monster’s precursor, since it would be mostly shooting in the dark.

My personally guess would be that Alpha was a minion to all its Elder Dragons, but it listened to none. It wasn’t able to follow any specific orders since they probably went against the orders of another, but it could single mindedly follow the LCD of all their orders, “Destroy all that is not us.”

Wanderer.3248:

Aside from any lore reasons, hybrid minions, like Mordem destroyers and branded undead would be cringe-inducing bad fiction, and should never be given serious consideration.

There’s nothing all that cringe-inducing about Kudu’s Monster, Subject Alpha, or the Crucible of Eternity dungeon since that is what the facility is all about – making a multi-corruption dragon champion the Inquest can control (spoiler alert: they couldn’t control it).

And in all honesty, branded corpses probably look no different than branded living beings. The living’s skin becomes gray, their hair falls out, and sans the bone their insides turn to crystal – would this differ so much from the decayed gray-skinned risen?

The same goes for icebrood, who’s hair, skin, and muscle slowly change into ice. And for living being corrupted by Primordus – explained as the creature being encased in stone, and slowly liquified from within.

Post-corruption, all minions that were once living beings are nothing but elemental corpses – be that element be ice, fire, crystal, or decay.

But Subject Alpha isn’t quite this, is it? It’s a body that seems overflowing with energy – the vein-like glow is not too dissimilar to the pulsating vein-like growth on Kellach’s neck and chin, or the still-living plants corrupted by Zhaitan’s magic in Sparkfly and Bloodtide. But rather than grayish purple, it’s a bright light – as if what’s in the veins is lava; we see tree branches jutting out of its shoulders, though no obvious signs of ice or crystal or decay.

Is Subject Alpha truly cringe-inducing to you? Because it exists, and I’ve yet to see any cringing from Alpha beyond the frustration of fighting the beast.

DarcShriek.5829:

Actually, loyalty is a question. Konig, you have mentioned several times that corrupted beings have no free will and must follow the will of their masters. Who is subject alpha’s master?

I think the earlier reference that the subjects were not truly corrupted and only injected with corruption is the best explanation of the test subjects.

The question is whether or not multiple corruption is possible. The OP never asked “which dragon would it follow” and indeed, that is an interesting point to ask, but like I said, it was not asked by the OP.

Regardless of loyalty outcome, this is irrelevant to the ultimate question of “can a being be corrupted by multiple Elder Dragons?”

And I fail to see how your conclusion came out of your initial statement. And it leads me to ask this: “How does one simply become injected with corruption… without encountering corruption?” What you said is a bit of a paradox – to be injected with something, but not have that something. It is illogical to have both statements be true.

As to Alpha’s loyalty, I like to entertain the fact that he follows all dragons – finding loopholes in the orders so that one can be fulfilled, and then made moot via following another dragons’ order if it came to it. Alternatively, it’d be as Erukk said: a minion to all, but listened to none. Perhaps a cacophony of different hive minds would drive it insane – as insane as a dragon minion can be considered such at least – resulting it in blocking all of them out in the form of them being a continuous monotonous and indecipherable buzzing sound.

Super Spoiler! And the answer!

Mushroomz.4280:

Super Spoiler! And the answer!

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

After today’s patch, no dragon minions CANNOT be corrupted by other dragons. Sylvari, and by extension, the Pale Tree, are indeed minions of Mordremoth, the Pale Tree has known the entire time. It’s been CLEARLY stated that Sylvari are immune to corruption, particularly Zhaitan’s corruption. I think this is enough proof for your answer.

Sigh… after this patch, I feel like ANet’s leaving me twisting in the wind, but… I’m going to stick to my guns and hold that sylvari immunity is due to the Dream, and the Dream alone, which I’ve begun to suspect is a product of the forgotten ritual (it would explain why they were dragged in in a big way for no real reason, and also how Glint was able to know so much).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Mushroomz.4280:

Super Spoiler! And the answer!

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

After today’s patch, no dragon minions CANNOT be corrupted by other dragons. Sylvari, and by extension, the Pale Tree, are indeed minions of Mordremoth, the Pale Tree has known the entire time. It’s been CLEARLY stated that Sylvari are immune to corruption, particularly Zhaitan’s corruption. I think this is enough proof for your answer.

Sigh… after this patch, I feel like ANet’s leaving me twisting in the wind, but… I’m going to stick to my guns and hold that sylvari immunity is due to the Dream, and the Dream alone, which I’ve begun to suspect is a product of the forgotten ritual (it would explain why they were dragged in in a big way for no real reason, and also how Glint was able to know so much).

Interesting idea, regardless, it seems pretty clear that either the sylvari have an abnormal immunity, or simply, they are immune because of what they are. Another interesting point is now we have elder dragon minions fighting each… I’m not sure if this counts… yet. Sylvari are now going to be center stage, as it seems like NOBODY wants them around anymore, at least according to the future vision :P So this mystery will hopefully soon be completed! But once again, I don’t know of any forgotten ritual yet involving the sylvari, so there’s a good chance that minions cannot corrupt each other.

The Dragon Minion hybrids created by the Inquest obey the Inquest itself so whatever they’ve done makes them their Dragon Minions.

Any attempts to corrupt Mordremoth’s Minions results in Mordremoth killing them leaving only maggots to climb out of the remains.

Sever the Dragon’s connection to the corruption and the minion dosen’t die from cross corruption.

The expression on each Elder Dragon’s face when Kudu severed the connections of each of them must have been priceless.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

The Dragon Minion hybrids created by the Inquest obey the Inquest itself so whatever they’ve done makes them their Dragon Minions.

Except they didn’t. The minions butchered the Inquest as soon as they weren’t trapped in their cells. Even Kudu’s Monster wasn’t let loose until Kudu was dead, so we have only his corruption-addled word to go on.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Wanderer.3248:

Aside from any lore reasons, hybrid minions, like Mordem destroyers and branded undead would be cringe-inducing bad fiction, and should never be given serious consideration.

Eh. Subject Alpha wasn’t bad. It’s just something that needs to be used sparingly- kinda like how throwing colors together just tends to result in brown, breaking down what makes minions distinct could very easily result in something unappealing.

As a one time “what-if” scenario it works. But you are totally right that if it was used all the time it would just be a horrible mess.

Some of the most awful attempts at fiction have been serious attempts to combine multiple monsters into one.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Sigh… after this patch, I feel like ANet’s leaving me twisting in the wind, but… I’m going to stick to my guns and hold that sylvari immunity is due to the Dream, and the Dream alone, which I’ve begun to suspect is a product of the forgotten ritual (it would explain why they were dragged in in a big way for no real reason, and also how Glint was able to know so much).

Maybe it’s harder for Elder Dragons to control their minions close to another Elder Dragon, and the forgotten ritual doesn’t simply free a mind, but, in the case of a dragon champion, creates a sort of mini-Elder Dragon. Thus, not only would it be hard for Jormag to operate in Orr, but it would be hard to control his minions near Glint, or the Pale Tree. Or Glint’s Egg, which is why Caithe wanted to retrieve it. That would also suggest that the Krait orb is somehow tied to Bubbles and has champ-level power.

That would also explain why Mordremoth sent its champion to attack the Pale Tree. Too dangerous or difficult to directly move its own ponderous mass, and minions alone wouldn’t cut it, so something of equivalent mental/spiritual power had to be physically there to maintain control of the other minions.

Wanderer.3248:

Aside from any lore reasons, hybrid minions, like Mordem destroyers and branded undead would be cringe-inducing bad fiction, and should never be given serious consideration.

I think calling them hybrids is a bit farfetched. When I hear Hybrid I think of 50/50 or 40/60 creatures. But the destroyers are destroyers, even the deathtouched and vinegrown destroyers are still like 85-90% destroyer
and the rotting icebrood was still like 80% ice.
So think of them not as hybrids but magically enhanced creatures

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mushroomz.4280:

It’s been said that dragon minions would likely fight each,

But only if they wander into each others’ territory. And this has actually been called into question in an interview with Angel McCoy (yet another retcon of Ree Soesbee interviews it seems…) in which her response was effectively “it’s speculated they fight, but unknown”.

Mushroomz.4280:

if Sylvari are truly Mordremoth creations

I have yet to see any sufficient amount of evidence that points to this hypothesis that cannot be easily debunked.

Mushroomz.4280:

they resist and desire to kill Zhaitan, it’s unclear where that desire stems from, maybe the Pale Tree seeks killing Zhaitan and other dragons.

The Pale Tree is fighting all Elder Dragons – including Mordremoth. Where your very first statement fails – sylvari fight Mordrem, Mordrem assault sylvari in pre-emptive strikes.

Mushroomz.4280:

the Acura subjects in COE are infused with dragon energy, not actually corrupted.

Same thing, really. Just different method. The end result is still corruption. The method of corruption is the only change.

Mushroomz.4280:

We know a lot about how different dragons corrupt, Primordius does not corrupt, his minions are simply created, to my understanding, Zhaitan raises the dead. Kralkatorrik’s breath brands his minions, and Jormags minions generally seem to accept his influence as he more or less seeks to corrupt the thoughts and minds of his minions, with promises of power. It’s said the DSD generates it’s minions from water, much like Primordius does from lava possibly, and Mordremoth isn’t clear yet.

• Primordus does corrupt – though he usually doesn’t corrupt living beings but instead lava and land; it has been stated in an interview by Jeff Grubb, Scott McGough, and Ree Soesbee that Primordus is very much capable of corrupting living beings.
• Zhaitan is also seen corrupting the living (both plant and animal) as well as the land. Corrupting the dead is simply Zhaitan’s preference – like corrupting land and lava is Primordus’.
• It’s more than just Kralkatorrik’s breath – that’s how he made his first batch of modern minions and how he made the Dragonbrand, but in Iron Marches we can see crystals imprisoning Sentinels, and corrupting them.
• While it is Jormag’s preferred method to convince minions to join him willingly before corruption, both icebrood and Sons of Svanri have been seen corrupting in other means (though primarily Sons of Svanir).

Point being: While it is true that each Elder Dragon has an apparent preference for corruption, they are all capable of equal corruption.

Mushroomz.4280:

Some of Mordremoths minions do appear to be corrupted Wildlife, but he doesn’t seem to corrupt, what we know of, the more important and intelligent species.

Sylvari don’t count as important and intelligent species?

Mushroomz.4280:

another dragon they’re a lifeless corpse that they can’t corrupt.

Jormag has been seen corrupting corpses (Edge of Destiny novel) – and in fact, icebrood end up as skeletons encased in ice by the time they’ve reached full-on corruption. I imagine Kralkatorrik, who has twisted the very land itself, is capable of twisting physical corpses too.

So the argument fails there.

If a dragon cannot corrupt another dragon’s magic or minions, then it is because they are corrupted, not because of their state of existence.

This is only in regards to the Sylvari issue, it has been stated in game and by Anet that Sylvari are Mordremoth’s Minions.

Here is the Official post, the main Excerpts from it are: “Yes, it’s true—sylvari were created to be dragon minions. And now Mordremoth has called them home.”

“When a sylvari becomes a Mordrem Guard, they also transform physically. This was by Mordremoth’s design. "

“In fact, some express disdain for her presence and the fact that she kept them from this fate for so long; they feel that all those Wyld Hunts in their past were just distractions, pulling their focus away from their true purpose.”

And

“The jungle dragon will keep drawing its minions closer and will use any opportunity to grow its army of servants.”

Then there was the vision from The Dream that Wynne had showing as such and the Pale Tree stopping her from speaking of it.

There is hardly any reason to debate the validity of Sylvari being dragon minions, the only question would be how powerful is the Pale Tree and it was able to hold back Mordremoth’s influence for so long on itself and the Sylvari.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Also as Aaron said, we do see corrupted plants – corrupted by Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan, if not others too. Bloodtide Coast, Sparkly Fen, and all across Orr we see corrupted plants and corrupted living beings by Zhaitan (well, in the later, scratch out Orr).

Furthermore, despite there being many branded plants, Kralkatorrik’s corruption is the second of the two examples presented for “sylvari cannot be corrupted” scenarios.

So? There is plenty of ice that is not Jormag’s ice. Plenty of lava that is just lava. And surely lots of crystals that are just crystals.
Not all plants are corrupted by Mordremoth, only the ones in close proximity to him. So how is that an argument for ‘cross-corruption is possible’?

Uhm what Konig said one year ago was a response to " Plants can’t be corrupted" from the OPs Post.

Like the “Mursaat lived in golden Cities” Myth this is something a few people still believe, despite having evidence since 2012 that Plants can be corrupted.

Walhalla.5473:

Uhm what Konig said one year ago was a response to " Plants can’t be corrupted" from the OPs Post.

Like the “Mursaat lived in golden Cities” Myth this is something a few people still believe, despite having evidence since 2012 that Plants can be corrupted.

True that. I was just pointing out that not all plants = Mordremoth. They’re just a part of Tyrian nature.

Amaimon.7823:

Wanderer.3248:

Aside from any lore reasons, hybrid minions, like Mordem destroyers and branded undead would be cringe-inducing bad fiction, and should never be given serious consideration.

I think calling them hybrids is a bit farfetched. When I hear Hybrid I think of 50/50 or 40/60 creatures. But the destroyers are destroyers, even the deathtouched and vinegrown destroyers are still like 85-90% destroyer
and the rotting icebrood was still like 80% ice.
So think of them not as hybrids but magically enhanced creatures

That post was made almost 2 years ago, during Season 2. Long before we saw the deathtouched or vinegrown destroyers or the rotting icebrood. So it was based on speculation on what monsters with multiple corruption might be like, not the ones that are actually in the game.

Walhalla.5473:

Uhm what Konig said one year ago was a response to " Plants can’t be corrupted" from the OPs Post.

Like the “Mursaat lived in golden Cities” Myth this is something a few people still believe, despite having evidence since 2012 that Plants can be corrupted.

I didn’t say plants can’t be corrupted. They obviously can because there’s lots branded plants and of course Mordrem varieties of normal plants (although they weren’t in the game back when I made this post).

What I said is I don’t think you can have a risen plant or an icebrood plant because an undead plant doesn’t make any sense to me and a frozen one would wither. When I made this topic we hadn’t gotten to the end of Season 2, so the sylvari being dragon minions was still just a rumour and the common assumption was that Zhaitan and Jormag couldn’t corrupt them because they would be destroyed in the process.

This whole topic needs to be taken in context – it was created a few days before the final chapter of Season 2 when no one knew any of the info in that chapter, HoT or Season 3. Obviously we have a lot more information now, which means the question has been answered.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

This is only in regards to the Sylvari issue, it has been stated in game and by Anet that Sylvari are Mordremoth’s Minions.

Holy kitten man look at the age of a post before you respond to it. I know full well of every line you quoted. But you quoted a post of mine from before all that promotion.

electricwater.1572:

True that. I was just pointing out that not all plants = Mordremoth. They’re just a part of Tyrian nature.

And nowhere in the post of mine you quoted did I ever even imply that “all plants = Mordremmoth”.

Yeash, what a cluster this thread necro immediately turned into.