Guild Wars 2

What do you guys think is happening to Cantha? Do you think it is flooded or they maybe have a problem with a elder dragon? Maybe Bubbles is living in the Jade sea since there is no krait or quagen there.

Two possibilities:
- Large parts of urban Cantha will deteriorate, and their population will be largely contained in small isolated patches, hiding from that dragon.

-Cantha grows even more than before, making almost the entire continent an urban environment, save a few places like the jade sea.

Actually, does it bother anyone else that a dragon is a big deal in Canthan lore 250 years prior?

Well from my understanding about the Cantha is that, they became more xenophobic to outsides. am guess they grew in size and are having problems with the elder dragon.

1. the Tengu need help in the DoW with the destroyers, they know about a living/extinct tengu civilication in the south of Cantha with a powerfull artefact. the Emporor doesn’t want Charr/Sylvari/Tengu/Asura/Norn so you will havvev to fight him, at the end fight against the emporor we will find out he is actually corrupted by a ElderDragon, that’s why he started to kill all non-Humans

Feuer Liebt Mich.8524:

Actually, does it bother anyone else that a dragon is a big deal in Canthan lore 250 years prior?

Well not that kind of dragons like the elder dragon. if you play the mission in faction called closer to the star, you will understand what i mean.

A couple Ideas of mine
-The Echovald Forest, and Jade Sea are recovering, not fully, but still in progress.
-Luxons and Kurzicks are gone.
- Not many races live in Cantha other than human. (I did see a in game a Charr saying there are Charr cubs starving in Cantha, so I’m not 100% sure on this .
-Kuunavang may have/had something to do with the Deep Sea Dragon, or maybe the rumored 6th dragon.
-Tengu IMO seems to be 99.999999% chance of being a playable race with their own city that we don’t have access too, and few more things I don’t want to spoil. This may trigger during the Cantha Expansion?

wouw.5837:

1. the Tengu need help in the DoW with the destroyers, they know about a living/extinct tengu civilication in the south of Cantha with a powerfull artefact. the Emporor doesn’t want Charr/Sylvari/Tengu/Asura/Norn so you will havvev to fight him, at the end fight against the emporor we will find out he is actually corrupted by a ElderDragon, that’s why he started to kill all non-Humans

That will be an interesting twist if that happens, but the Emperor and the rest became xenophobia long before the elder dragon awoke. the hated the Tengu for longer.

Hunter.6950:

A couple Ideas of mine
-The Echovald Forest, and Jade Sea are recovering, not fully, but still in progress.
yes they are back to normal
-Luxons and Kurzicks are gone.
Idd a Emporor wiped them out
- Not many races live in Cantha other than human. (I did see a in game a Charr saying there are Charr cubs starving in Cantha, so I’m not 100% sure on this .
Idd the Xenophobic Emporor
-Kuunavang may have/had something to do with the Deep Sea Dragon, or maybe the rumored 6th dragon.
Rumored 6th Dragon? you mean the elderdragon Who the Pale Tree is a Champion off?
-Tengu IMO seems to be 99.999999% chance of being a playable race with their own city that we don’t have access too, and few more things I don’t want to spoil. This may trigger during the Cantha Expansion?
most likely

Acaelus Thorne.3862:

That will be an interesting twist if that happens, but the Emperor and the rest became xenophobia long before the elder dragon awoke. the hated the Tengu for longer.

Did we know the Xenophobic Emporor Died? because if he was a Elder Dragon Champion he could get extremely old
EDIT: wow I am a Lore nerd I am posting to much XD

Hunter.6950:

A couple Ideas of mine
-The Echovald Forest, and Jade Sea are recovering, not fully, but still in progress.
-Luxons and Kurzicks are gone.
- Not many races live in Cantha other than human. (I did see a in game a Charr saying there are Charr cubs starving in Cantha, so I’m not 100% sure on this .
-Kuunavang may have/had something to do with the Deep Sea Dragon, or maybe the rumored 6th dragon.
-Tengu IMO seems to be 99.999999% chance of being a playable race with their own city that we don’t have access too, and few more things I don’t want to spoil. This may trigger during the Cantha Expansion?

actually the Emperor conquered the Luxons and Kurzicks. but the Echovald Forest and Jade sea 250 years is a long time for those places to recover.

wouw.5837:

Acaelus Thorne.3862:

That will be an interesting twist if that happens, but the Emperor and the rest became xenophobia long before the elder dragon awoke. the hated the Tengu for longer.

Did we know the Xenophobic Emporor Died? because if he was a Elder Dragon Champion he could get extremely old
EDIT: wow I am a Lore nerd I am posting to much XD

Well , we don’t know, but i like your idea of him be a champion of Elder Dragon. like i said its will make the an interesting twist if he was really.

Acaelus Thorne.3862:

Well , we don’t know, but i like your idea of him be a champion of Elder Dragon. like i said its will make the an interesting twist if he was really.

I would like we could actually go south of Cantha and see the place were the Humans were brought to Tyria! Now I think of it, it would be logical a powerfull artefact lies there

wouw.5837:

Acaelus Thorne.3862:

Well , we don’t know, but i like your idea of him be a champion of Elder Dragon. like i said its will make the an interesting twist if he was really.

I would like we could actually go south of Cantha and see the place were the Humans were brought to Tyria! Now I think of it, it would be logical a powerfull artefact lies there

Well you have to remember that its was at one point in time the land where the first two Gods stay too.

well yeah, but the Gods brought the Humans to Tyria

wouw.5837:

well yeah, but the Gods brought the Humans to Tyria

that’s old news, we have in game sources that they were not brought to this world by the gods, they originated from south of cantha, and rose to power from being savages.

wut? they where brought to the south of Cantha, not? can you link me that source? I am very interested

wouw.5837:

wut? they where brought to the south of Cantha, not? can you link me that source? I am very interested

Yeah I will get some screenshots from the Jotun that stated this. There is actually alot more too it as well. Am I allowed to post links to screenshots?

I geuss you can, but the Juton might not tell t he truth either, they don’t live in cantha+ there stories could be twisted in the years

My take on it:

-Bubbles would rise between Cantha and Tyria, leaving a huge whirlpool storm where he/she rose. We could visit it as a zone at the beginning. The powers of Bubbles would be centered around water and air.

-He would have tortured Cantha with storms and floods, ruining crops, sinking villages into mud… Cantha would be a huge mess.

-The empire of the dragon would have fallen into his/her hands, manipulated to openly revere him as some kind of “great god” or “savior”, who ironically, would have saved them from the dangers brought by him/her in the first place. Of course, this would make the empire an enemy to beat. Corruption wouldn’t be too extended, only a few champions would actually wield the powers of the dragon.

-The only powerful race would be the naga. Recovered in these 250 years, they would have a capital underwater, and they could be able to detect the machinations of Bubbles, as well as fight the climate. The tengu would be isolated, as well as the rest of the races, but they could be fighting well together with the naga, and some rebel humans. Of course, most humans would be deceived, and would keep supporting the corrupted empire.

-The land would be controlled by the empire. Outposts everywhere, making citizens unable to know what’s going on in the nearest village, that could have been sacrificed entirely to the dragon. The final zone could be an entire part of Kaineng, closed to the population, where the dragon would have built a giant temple, or just some zone hidden and far from Kaineng. A secret and/or closed place. We would witness the power of Bubbles and his minions, yes, but in isolated places, where no survivors can flee to warn anyone else.

-The naga could lead the offensive, being a new playable race (tengu would be playable, too, but before Cantha, probably during the Jormag expansion). Our main goal would be to rebel the citizens and make Bubbles show himself, leading to a final battle where we kill him and free Cantha.

I’d like to point out that it was stated that Cantha is flooded, but it’s not like a Lion’s Arch flood, it’s more of a- the city streets will be a little difficult to walk through- flood.

Lonami.2987:

My take on it:

-Bubbles would rise between Cantha and Tyria, leaving a huge whirlpool storm where he/she rose. We could visit it as a zone at the beginning. The powers of Bubbles would be centered around water and air.

-He would have tortured Cantha with storms and floods, ruining crops, sinking villages into mud… Cantha would be a huge mess.

-The empire of the dragon would have fallen into his/her hands, manipulated to openly revere him as some kind of “great god” or “savior”, who ironically, would have saved them from the dangers brought by him/her in the first place. Of course, this would make the empire an enemy to beat. Corruption wouldn’t be too extended, only a few champions would actually wield the powers of the dragon.

-The only powerful race would be the naga. Recovered in these 250 years, they would have a capital underwater, and they could be able to detect the machinations of Bubbles, as well as fight the climate. The tengu would be isolated, as well as the rest of the races, but they could be fighting well together with the naga, and some rebel humans. Of course, most humans would be deceived, and would keep supporting the corrupted empire.

-The land would be controlled by the empire. Outposts everywhere, making citizens unable to know what’s going on in the nearest village, that could have been sacrificed entirely to the dragon. The final zone could be an entire part of Kaineng, closed to the population, where the dragon would have built a giant temple, or just some zone hidden and far from Kaineng. A secret and/or closed place. We would witness the power of Bubbles and his minions, yes, but in isolated places, where no survivors can flee to warn anyone else.

-The naga could lead the offensive, being a new playable race (tengu would be playable, too, but before Cantha, probably during the Jormag expansion). Our main goal would be to rebel the citizens and make Bubbles show himself, leading to a final battle where we kill him and free Cantha.

Good to see you’re bringing your naga fetish to other games, Lon-Ami.

Hunter.6950:

wouw.5837:

well yeah, but the Gods brought the Humans to Tyria

that’s old news, we have in game sources that they were not brought to this world by the gods, they originated from south of cantha, and rose to power from being savages.

We have one Jotun who is the last of his kind’s storytellers and who is very likely, like most ingame records, baised vs. multiple direct quotes from the story writers. Id say the humans arent native. Plus there isnt really much land south of Cantha for them to come from. Plus we have a quote from an Ogre, one of the oldest races in Tyria, that refers to times when ‘Magic came into the world’ and ‘Before there were humans’.

If the Emperor of Cantha is an enemy have a feeling we may see the major crime gangs, the Ah Fah and the Jade Brotherhood play a role as freedom fighter organisations. That would be an odd turn around from Factions.

I think we would discover a link between the Wardens and the Sylvari.

I wouldnt be suprised to discover the Celestials or the Envoys playing a role in the plot. That could tie into to the strange stuff leaking through from the Underworld in Queensdale.

I’m guessing Mr. Sparkles will go over there to save the day.

Hunter.6950:

wouw.5837:

well yeah, but the Gods brought the Humans to Tyria

that’s old news, we have in game sources that they were not brought to this world by the gods, they originated from south of cantha, and rose to power from being savages.

wouw.5837:

wut? they where brought to the south of Cantha, not? can you link me that source? I am very interested

Yes, it has been known since GW1 that the human race came from an area south of the continent we know as Cantha.

With the Planetary map revealed in-game and in hidden files, our assumptions that the continent of Cantha is just a part of an island was proven. If anything, the human race came from the same island – whatever the name of that island is. Oh, the island’s name can not be Cantha because it was hinted and repeated in GW1 that “there are lands East, South, and South-East of Cantha, Kurzicks, and Luxons” (something like that).

Then humanity thrived in what we know in Factions as the “Continent of Cantha” (ie the Dragon Empire, the Kurzick, and the Luxon territories). From there, humanity explored the seas.

Some ended up in the continent of Elona, some in the continent of Tyria (note: continent, not planet). What I am not sure is if the humans who stayed in the continent of Tyria traveled by way of Elona or by the sea and landed on what we know today as Orr and Arah.

From there, the rest is history.

^^

As to the OP:
It has been officially stated that the Dragon Empire defeated the Kurzicks and Luxons and annexed their lands, people, and culture to the Empire. Thus making the continent of Cantha fully controlled by the Empire.

Then they drove out all non-human races out of the empire’s territories.
And the jade sea recovering… slowly.

Now for my guesses:
I think the Emperors have acquired some ancient tome or artifact or someone warned them about the Elder Dragons. Decided to shove all non-humans out since the last time the ED were wreaking havoc, it was 5 non-human races that failed and instead waged war on each other.

They probably thought that, to better protect themselves and the rest of the human race, it is better to close their borders off, strengthen themselves, keep to themselves. Don’t let anyone fall to the influence of the EDs lest they found out the secrets the empire has learned and is hiding and developing.

They probably are also waging in years-long wars with their neighbors. Especially those non-human races they drove out.

Also of note, the tengu also ended up doing the same thing – coming together and shunning themselves from the world. The tengu probably saw the wisdom in what the Canthans did.

Other than that, I’m not sure, they’re secretive after all.

Maybe they already control the whole island, and probably even discovered more artifacts and the actual birthplace of the human race.

Lutinz.6915:

Hunter.6950:

wouw.5837:

well yeah, but the Gods brought the Humans to Tyria

that’s old news, we have in game sources that they were not brought to this world by the gods, they originated from south of cantha, and rose to power from being savages.

We have one Jotun who is the last of his kind’s storytellers and who is very likely, like most ingame records, baised vs. multiple direct quotes from the story writers. Id say the humans arent native. Plus there isnt really much land south of Cantha for them to come from. Plus we have a quote from an Ogre, one of the oldest races in Tyria, that refers to times when ‘Magic came into the world’ and ‘Before there were humans’.

You should look at the overlays of the “continent of Cantha” to the island where the said continent sits. You know, the global and planetary map in-game and data files. It shows there that there is much land just like how it was told in GW1 that the human race originated beyond what is the continent of Cantha, to the lands east, south, and south-east.

Ive had a look but the issue I have is that Elonian, Canthan and Tyrian cultures are all very different. I dont see all those vary diverse cultures evolving in quite a small area of land particularly if you take into account physiological differences like skin color. There isnt anything Ive seen that suggests that Elona or Orr was a colony of Cantha. There are the Margonites too who quite possibly had a unique culture themselves.

If the humans came through the Rift from another world the place they entered Tyria could have easily have been a location in the south and spread from there particularly if the Gods were overseeing them.

I never did like Cantha because it didn’t feel original by the creative team because they just basically copied Asian themes. It would be cool if they completely revamped and changed Cantha to something more original. Maybe say, one of the elder dragons completely corrupts it by the time we get there to explore.

“Cantha

In the year 1127 AE, Emperor Usoku, successor to Kisu, took a firm hold of his nation. He raised the Canthan military, spending millions in gold to arm his troops, and then swept the countryside. He defeated the Luxons and the Kurzick, incorporating these disparate people back into his nation. Usoku unified Cantha behind a strong national identity and began to drive out all non-humans. His regime was ironclad, tyrannical, and fierce. Those Canthans who did not agree with the emperor’s dictates were given no choice but to leave their homeland, seeking refuge and sanctuary in Elona and Tyria.

As a result, Cantha became extremely isolationist. Once Orr rose from the ocean, those tendencies were reinforced by an inability to safely sail the western seas. Any ships venturing near the Strait of Malchor are sunk by the black ships, then dredged from the ocean floor by the Orrian dragon and commandeered into service. Thus, completely cut off from Kryta, Cantha vanished entirely. Travelers, refugees, and even Xunlai agents residing within Tyrian [sic] heard nothing more from Cantha.

Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles [sic], but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku’s successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever."

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

For all we know, the Emperor may have succeeded in his purge of all things inhuman in Cantha, including the Tengu, and began his push into Elona. Which would put him against Palawa Joko.

Who knows.

Lutinz.6915:

Ive had a look but the issue I have is that Elonian, Canthan and Tyrian cultures are all very different. I dont see all those vary diverse cultures evolving in quite a small area of land particularly if you take into account physiological differences like skin color. There isnt anything Ive seen that suggests that Elona or Orr was a colony of Cantha. There are the Margonites too who quite possibly had a unique culture themselves.

If the humans came through the Rift from another world the place they entered Tyria could have easily have been a location in the south and spread from there particularly if the Gods were overseeing them.

Yes, they are all different, when people migrate and time passes, things change. Elona or Orr are not colonies of Cantha, no one said that. But it doesn’t mean humanity did not come from “south of Cantha”.

In the real-world, scientists claim that we all came from Africa and migrated northwards to the fertile crescent. From there we spread out all over the world. So, Africa is your “south of Cantha”. The fertile crescent is your “continent of Cantha” (Dragon Empire, Kurzick, Luxon after thousands of years). From there, the human race spread all over tyria – to what later will be known as Elona, Orr, Ascalon, Kryta, Vabbi, etc.

And you mentioned the margonites. They’re just another group (I don’t want to use ‘tribe’ since we don’t know their culture or how many they were originally) of humans that worshipped Abaddon exclusively, and has the guts to defile the other 5 gods.

But that also mean that the human race has been worshipping the 6 gods since before the event known as Exodus of the gods. That’s a pretty long history for humanity to spread out, change in skin color, develop their own culture, establish kingdoms and destroy other races.

At the end, the human race still originated “south of Cantha”, granted, maybe the six gods dropped them there, “south of Cantha”, and found move northward to Cantha, the “fertile crescent”.

moonslightv.6704:

I never did like Cantha because it didn’t feel original by the creative team because they just basically copied Asian themes. It would be cool if they completely revamped and changed Cantha to something more original. Maybe say, one of the elder dragons completely corrupts it by the time we get there to explore.

It would be funny if I say, I never did like Tyria because it’s western or Elona because it’s middle-eastern, because it didn’t feel original, that they just copied Western and Middle-Eastern themes.

Point is, to make it appeal to a wide audience, you have to base it on some national or regional culture and history in real-world planet earth. Otherwise you’re going to have a limited audience who is into exotic, out-of-this-world, sci-fi-ish, weird, wild, crazy world and cultures (which usually can only be found in books-series).

But I never said I never liked Tyria and Elona because of being Western and Middle-Eastern, even though I’m Asian and we have a long history of the Western world doing plenty of stuff against us, I never disliked your culture.

And mind you, Elona is Asian too. It is based on Middle-Eastern culture, Middle-East = continent of Asia. So…

John Widdin.9618:

For all we know, the Emperor may have succeeded in his purge of all things inhuman in Cantha, including the Tengu, and began his push into Elona. Which would put him against Palawa Joko.

Who knows.

He did. That’s why the Tengu created the Dominion of the Winds. For all we know, the banishment of the Canthan tengus prompted them to once again unite and stay in one place and call it home. After all, the EDs are awakening (during that time), no better way to defend yourself but by uniting (or making yourself extinct by staying in one place).

There is a book in Divinitys Reach where someone has written that the Canthans did not want to help with the Elder Dragons (maybe not that exactly) and Cantha kept to themselves and the guy wrote “to the mists with them”. Not everyone might want the Canthans to, well, die, but I get the feeling nobody really cares about them and they don’t really care about anyone else (which has been proven), plus with their xenophobic nature I get the feeling if we go there in future content it wont be to make friends.

Shael.4703:

Lutinz.6915:

Ive had a look but the issue I have is that Elonian, Canthan and Tyrian cultures are all very different. I dont see all those vary diverse cultures evolving in quite a small area of land particularly if you take into account physiological differences like skin color. There isnt anything Ive seen that suggests that Elona or Orr was a colony of Cantha. There are the Margonites too who quite possibly had a unique culture themselves.

If the humans came through the Rift from another world the place they entered Tyria could have easily have been a location in the south and spread from there particularly if the Gods were overseeing them.

Yes, they are all different, when people migrate and time passes, things change. Elona or Orr are not colonies of Cantha, no one said that. But it doesn’t mean humanity did not come from “south of Cantha”.

In the real-world, scientists claim that we all came from Africa and migrated northwards to the fertile crescent. From there we spread out all over the world. So, Africa is your “south of Cantha”. The fertile crescent is your “continent of Cantha” (Dragon Empire, Kurzick, Luxon after thousands of years). From there, the human race spread all over tyria – to what later will be known as Elona, Orr, Ascalon, Kryta, Vabbi, etc.

And you mentioned the margonites. They’re just another group (I don’t want to use ‘tribe’ since we don’t know their culture or how many they were originally) of humans that worshipped Abaddon exclusively, and has the guts to defile the other 5 gods.

But that also mean that the human race has been worshipping the 6 gods since before the event known as Exodus of the gods. That’s a pretty long history for humanity to spread out, change in skin color, develop their own culture, establish kingdoms and destroy other races.

At the end, the human race still originated “south of Cantha”, granted, maybe the six gods dropped them there, “south of Cantha”, and found move northward to Cantha, the “fertile crescent”.

Humans on earth spread out from Africa over a period of 100s of thousands of years at least. Humans on tyria had less than 3000 years. Thats a hell of a short period of time to develop vastly different (continual) cultures, let alone develop the physical differences that you see between elonians and Tyrians. Also remember that much of these cultures are quite similar to what they were historicly at the time of the Exodus.

Most of the information we have to work from seems to point at humans being brought to the world by the gods, possibly as refugees. It wouldnt be suprising, particularly as it doesnt seem the gods themselves are native.

If the Devs themselves hadnt said outright that the Gods brought humans to the world Id be incline to agree that they might still be native but a Dev saying it makes it pretty conclusive.

captaincrash.6528:

There is a book in Divinitys Reach where someone has written that the Canthans did not want to help with the Elder Dragons (maybe not that exactly) and Cantha kept to themselves and the guy wrote “to the mists with them”. Not everyone might want the Canthans to, well, die, but I get the feeling nobody really cares about them and they don’t really care about anyone else (which has been proven), plus with their xenophobic nature I get the feeling if we go there in future content it wont be to make friends.

Well, much to my chagrin, I’ve long felt that the ANet developers said “to hell with Cantha” a long time ago. Too bad, since Factions was my favorite of the original GW.

I think it’s noticeable that all the expansions happened in Tyria and that EotN was simply an extension of Prophecies. (I consider Elona part of Tyria, similar to Eurasia.) Also, most of GW2 is Tolkein-esque Western-themed high fantasy (as was Prophecies).

[ASIDE: Can someone explain to me why the Charr are steampunk? I mean, they were portrayed as rather barbaric, non-technoloogical, in the original GW.]

Also, the fact that many world-holidays in GW1 were not available in Cantha (e.g., wintersday and halloween), while Cantha holidays were not available in Tyria (e.g., Dragon Festival), really kept Cantha and the rest of the world separate.

Furthermore, the Ritualist (a Canthan profession) has been eliminated from GW2.

I’m not quite capturing it fully, but I have always felt that ANet intentionally kept Cantha very self-contained and segregated from the rest of the game world and I’ve always had a suspicion that was intentional because ANet just wasn’t that happy with Cantha.

When we look at the progresses made in Tyria when it comes the adventuring beyond Zhaitan’s blockade, a major problem becomes evident. The continent of Tyria has grown, advanced and expanded completely isolated from the rest of the world. This means that all the technologies and magic developments made during the last one hundred years have not spread outside of the continent of Tyria.

This become a major issue when we consider that fundamental gameplay elements such as Asura Gates, Waypoints, and even the skills and weapons for some professions such as the Engineer, depend entirely on the existence of cultures with at least the same technological level as in the continent of Tyria. This makes technological progress outside of the continent imperative and demands the existence of at least one source of advance technology and tools for every single future Guild Wars 2 expansion. Without it, there won’t be new skills for the Engineer, new rifles for the Warrior or new pistols for the Thieves. Scientific and technological progress is mandatory to provide the basic needs for the technological-minded professions.

Both Cantha and Elona, have access to an old Asura Gate and could be reverse-engineered. On the other hand, the Order of Whispers could have spread some technologies, true, but we also need native development. One thing Tyria doesn’t have is expertise in the field of Deep Water navigation. Unlike the nations trapped in Tyria, Cantha and Elona have been free to sail the global seas unopposed by Zhaitan’s forces for a hundred years. This allows wide room for both nation to growth outside their core territories and increases the opportunities for interaction between the two Empires and the world beyond (something I believe it has been lacking in Gw), in form of trade, communication, war etc. It also grants opportunities for both Empires to expand their influence beyond and with it expand the technology all over the world.

With Guild Wars 2 set somewhere between the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution, this would be an unique opportunity to keep expanding the ideas of avoiding Medieval Stagnation and move the world into the Age of Discovery, Exploration and Colonial Imperialism. Both Cantha and Elona could have a multitude of overseas colonies by the time we arrive, Cantha would probably have the upper hand thanks to being a traditional naval power superior to everyone else. Turn the Xunlai into something similar to the East Indias Company or something. Thus, the always present problem of having to provide skills, weapons and tools for the technological-minded professions and at the same time explaining technological development would be solved for every future Expansion/DLC in a single move.

Cantha took on a racist Emperor who after they killed all the other races i.e. (Tengu etc.) and Became Isolationist :P