Guild Wars 2

As the title says, this topic will deal with the various and huge contradictions surrounding the previously (back from Guild Wars 1) well-established lore of the Cataclysm that sunk the peninsula of Orr and the preceding charr invasion that forced Vizier Khilbron’s hand to spell the end of his own kingdom.

I’ve been meaning to post this for some time, but since there are so many inconsistencies in how these two events are portrayed in Guild Wars 2, it’s a tad bit difficult to collect all of them and present them in a concise form. So brace yourselves… walls of text incoming.

If possible, it would be awesome if a developer or writer actually chimed in and shed some light on how the invasion played out exactly. Maybe they could explain away all the points I bring up below.

First of all, let’s see the basic information we learned of the Cataclysm in Guild Wars 1:

Hopes were high that the Charr would be defeated quickly. The Orrian army was the equal of any in Tyria, and the invaders had already fought a long battle against the Ascalons. But those hopes were dashed in less than twelve hours.

The invaders reached the gates of Arah without breaking stride. The Orrians failed to protect their charge. With defeat at the doorstep and the kingdom nearly in ruins, one man turned to a forbidden magic. The king’s own personal advisor in the matters of the arcane took it upon himself to destroy the invaders, no matter the cost. Unrolling one of the Lost Scrolls, kept inside a warded vault deep within the catacombs below Arah, he spoke the words of a litany that spelled the end of the Kingdom of Orr forever.

- http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Orr

To stop the invading army, the King of Orr’s personal advisor and sage turned to the powers of dark magic. Venturing into the vaults far below the marble streets of Arah, he unrolled a forbidden scroll and read the words he found printed there.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

I’ll bring up additional lore from Guild Wars 1 along the way, but these two are the basis for the list of contradictions.

1.) The Invasion

According to the source above, Orrian hopes were dashed in less than 12 hours, with the charr already on the outskirts of Arah by the time the Cataclysm occured. By the outskirts of Arah, I mean Cursed Shore, which is given as a location of heavy fighting by the Captain of the Golden Vanity (Captain’s Log Skill Challenge). This wouldn’t be a contradiction at all, if not for the Guild Wars 1 map of Orr:

http://s1006.beta.photobucket.com/user/ThaladorDoomSpeaker/media/Tyria_unexplored_map_2_CIO_zpse75f4764.jpg.html

Excuse me for the terrible drawing, but I guess it serves its purpose. The red main line is the most logical route for the charr invasion force coming from Ascalon (Ascalon City -> passing the Blazeridge near Ebonhawke -> going along that green coastline -> passing a strait into what is known now as Scavenger’s Causeway -> entering Orr and marching on Arah), while the black, dashed line is the route that the charr actually took to Arah (based on the log), which coincides with the march of the Pact on Arah (crossing the Straits of Devastation, going along the northern shore then onto the western shore -> Gates of Arah). For the player and the Pact it is understandable why we went the way we did: we had to weaken Zhaitan by destroying his champions, resources, armies and food in a mostly unexplored, hostile area. But for the charr? Why didn’t they just stride into Arah from the east, instead of going around and wasting precious time? Even the Guild Wars 2 map of Orr gives (shows) us an additional passage into the City of the Gods:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/1/1e/Ruins_of_Orr_map.png

There’s a river running from Arah to the Sea of Elon that would have been a perfect entry point into the city. And in case someone would bring up the entirely genuine counter-argument that the river might not have been there before Orr sank: it was actually there, as proven in the Arah mursaat path. I’m going to address the existence of this river among other things in detail in point 1./b.) Orrian Incompetence – The Fleets.

1./a.) Flame Legion Incompetence: Beside their questionable strategy (despite being told by the titan overseers to get into Arah ASAP and sear the kitten out of it, they took a tour through the rest of Orr), the Flame Legion lacked the guts and/or the brains to use their proven WMDs against a highly-magical foe the moment they engaged in battle with them. However, we know of at least 3 Searing cauldrons scattered around Orr (2 sunken near Broken Spit in Straits of Devastation – dangerously close to the Vizier’s tower (this is going to be important later on)) and another one that was probably deeper in the kingdom: the one taken to Catedral of Zephyrs by the Risen – and the one we claim for the Pact in the Durmand Priory offensive plot.

Why not use them? Even if they had learned to control it by then, they could’ve destroyed any resistance much sooner than that 12 hours. And if they would’ve still let the Searing energies run amok in their ignorance, all the better for them: Orr – and the main target: Arah – would’ve been seared to dust before the Cataclysm could’ve been initiated.

1./b.) Orrian Incompetence – The Army:

He was a genuine devotee of the Six Gods, with a faith that was true and earnest. he tried to play peacemaker during the Guild Wars, and stop the ravages of war throughout Tyria.

Sadly, his efforts were unsuccessful. Not only did he fail to stop the wars tearing Kryta and Ascalon apart, but the attempt to use Orrian troops to stop fighting elsewhere left his own country open for an invasion of its own—by the charr.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#A_Land_of_Kings : King Reza

True, a large portion of the Orrian army was out of country acting as peacekeeping units in the other kingdoms, however;

Fishmongers display live catch in watery orbs above their tents. Porters enhance their strength with spells, routinely carrying loads that would cripple a pack bull.

The finest silks ripple in the air, showing their quality: songs play themselves on golden lyres; parents project their voices across the square to find the ear of a wayward child.

Orrians were incredibly magical: even the civilians could’ve brought the invasion to a halt, especially when the charr army’s own spellcasters were merely primitive pyromancers only.

Imagine a single, aforementioned porter tearing an entire charr warband to shreds after empowering himself. Or the fishmongers encompassing a charr shaman in an orb of water, suffocating him to death. Or Orrian parents luring enemy into traps by the manipulation of sounds (or ambushing them by making them deaf to their footsteps). Orrian marksmen shooting through a whole column of charr warriors, thanks to their enchanted eyesight and strength, etc., etc.

What we are told in that scroll makes Orr look like a kingdom of superheroes and heroines. How the primitve charr defeat them in less than 12 hours, when they were held up for months by the Ascalonians, is beyond me. (While the Great Northern Wall did help a lot in that, the charr could’ve never won such an easy victory without the Searing. Even before reaching the wall, they had to use a human traitor who gave up Surmia for them. The Searing broke the Ascalonian’s will along with the wall, and then I haven’t even mentioned the casualties they suffered… but it’s off-topic).

It makes no sense the charr won so humiliatingly easily. Especially when we consider that they were probably weakened from those months of fighting, crossing southern Ascalon and the Blazeridge, and traveling to Orr along that coast… that’s hundreds of miles of marching.

From my point of view, the defeat of Orr is nonsensical as it currently stands:

Exhausted, ferocious invaders & primitive pyromancers winning over nation of disciplined and highly magical superheroes in battlefields completely unknown to the invaders…

I think ArenaNet wanted to make Orr so mysterious and magical that they forgot to involve the Guild Wars 1 lore of the invasion, effetively making the whole thing inconsistent and full of discrepancies.

1./b.) Orrian Incompetence – The Fleets: As promised, here’s the proof that the river I mentioned in the very first point existed before the Cataclysm: Orrians had an entire armada stationed in the northern river docks of Arah. This is shown if you take the mursaat path in the Arah explorable mode: in the northern reaches of the city, we go through an area called Rotten Armada and one called the Shipfall, with a Point of Interest being the Orrian Imperial Barge in the latter zone. As expected, it is a graveyard of vessels littered with the broken hulls and masts of dozens of ships, including the big arks such as the Imperial Barge. And indeed, the river is just off the map from the northernmost part of the Shipfall.

Why not use this massive armada against the invaders? The charr probably didn’t have warships, only boats that they used to cross that strait between the Blazeridge and the Causeway. They could’ve kept the marching charr under fire from a safe distance, as well as evacuating wounded, children, and women. And for that matter, where was the grand corsair fleet that were given amnesty after they’d sworn fealty to the Orrian Crown?

Also, I thought that this armada was what kept back the charr from attacking that way: maybe it is the case (though then again I question Flame Legion competence: one Searing ritual and the fleet would’ve been turned into floatsam and jetsam), but answer me this: when the fleet commanders saw that the charr are taking the long way around, why didn’t they sail out and start attacking them from afar?

2.) The Cataclysm:

While the description of the Cataclysm in Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 match up perfectly, the events leading up to it couldn’t differ more in the narrative of the two games.

2./a.) The Vizier:

In panic, Vizier Khilbron searched forbidden texts and discovered a scroll that had been hidden away by the Six Gods. He stole it from Arah, taking it to his tower, and there, unleashed its might upon the land.

Back in Guild Wars 1 it was said he had invoked the scrolls’ power beneath Arah, but now we know he had taken them back to his tower, just off the coast of Orr in the Straits of Devastation (I wonder why can’t we find the torn pieces of the scrolls there, though). However, there is a “bit” of a problem with that: how did he get past the occupation forces of the charr holding everything between the Gates of Arah and the Straits, where the charr had neatly set up two Searing Cauldrons just in the neighborhood of his crib? How did he manage to steal the scrolls from Arah’s vaults, stealth through the invading charr armies, sneak back into his tower while not invoking the wrath of the shamans controlling those two cauldrons, and still figuring out the scrolls in that 12 hours?

Now, it could be said that he took an evasive route: say, the river which leads straight back to his home from Arah. But if he used that passage and got back unscathed, why didn’t the Orrian fleet commanders do the same?

2./b.) Jutu: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jutu

“No wait! We discovered that the Vizier had been corrupted by the God of Secrets! We found the forbidden books in his quarters! It’s coming back to me now.”

“The Vizier was a traitor! Too late, Orr was lost to Abaddon! Pain, suffering… why must the memories sear me like it was only yesterday?”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Faded_Memory#Intermediate_dialogue

It’s possible Vizier Khilbron had secluded himself with the scrolls inside his tower before the invasion started, however, the involvement of this Jutu fellow and his companions questions the credibility of such a theory:

If they had found the scrolls in his quarters, then they must’ve done it while the Vizier wasn’t there. And if the Vizier wasn’t there, then where was he when the scrolls were in his tower? And all this probably minutes before the Cataclysm, as Jutu’s last memory of his life (closely following the reveal about the Vizier’s allegiance) is the pain caused by the calamity.

Also, how did these guys get through the charr-held lands and sneak into the Vizier’s tower? Was the charr this sloppy to let everyone slip past their guard? If so, the Orrians could’ve easily flanked them from behind – say, with their big kitten armada whose captains’ just sat on their kitten back in the docks while Orr bruned around them.

3.) Miscellaneous Contradictions:

3./a.) Guys, it would be about time to decide what Orr is: Is it a peninsula? An island? A continent?

Back in Guild Wars 1 all sources claim it is/was a peninsula, and rightfully so (look at the GW1 map posted above: a peninsula with its center missing, surrounded by broken islands and remnants of its shore).

In GW2, several sources (mostly “knowledgable” Priory folks, but also lead writers like Jeff Grubb called Orr such) say it was a continent. How’s that even possible when it’s nowhere near the size of Tyria, Cantha, or Elona?

Also in GW2, a Lightbringer chick speculates that since Orr is an island, it makes this struggle a naval war. (Despite the fact that Orr is still connected to the mainland through a narrow patch of land (Scavenger’s Causeway) – probably was bigger but got flooded when Orr rose.)

3./b.) Ancient Risen Charr MIA: Imagine the barnacle and coral-covered Orrian risen just in charr. In other words: where are the corrupted, shambling remains of the charr invasion force? And for that matter, aside from the cauldrons, why do we see next to nothing of the war that was fought there in 1071 AE? Orr looks like as if it was only damaged in the Cataclysm, and its now undead citizens were never fighting and dying in a bloody war. (Malchor even believes it’s festival time near Dwayna’s temple when he sees those light orbs hanging and lit.)

3./c.) Corals… Corals Everywhere…: … even where they shouldn’t be at all. For instance, the Cathedral of Silence was on the very edge of Orr, and if we look at the Guild Wars 1 map of the Ruins of Orr, the vast majority of the coastlines – including the temple’s approximate location – were above the waterline, meaning it shouldn’t look like it spent 250 years on the bottom of the sea. Interestingly, they did this right with the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance.

3./d.) The Wreck of the Golden Vanity: … is in a place that looks like to have been above the sea before the Cataclysm. Can’t provide screens, but I recall seeing a set of stairs leading to it in the proximity of the wreckage.

3./e.) The Orrian Survivors: Where are they exactly? We’ve been told that while most of the populace was lost, there were Orrian survivors (we just have to think of the soldiers who Reza commanded to help in putting an end to the Guild Wars and other hostilities in Kryta and Ascalon.) More so, in the Movement of the World there was a slight forshadowing of us encountering people of Orrian heritage, people who hide their ancestry given Orr’s current state. And what happened?

I met one Priory girl who’s exploring one of the bayts in Malchor’s Leap, saying some of her relatives were working there as farmers when the Cataclysm happened.

While I wasn’t hoping for an Orrian Settlement somewhere in Kryta, meeting more people with Orrian blood running in their veins would’ve been appreciated. Thinking of it and knowing just how “much” people love Trahearne, I bet a lot would’ve fancied if the Commander’s partner was such a person – someone with actual ties to the land. The Marshal could have still fulfilled his destiny by cleansing Orr, but I’d have liked to fight shoulder to shoulder with a living, breathing Orrian freedom fighter. JM2C

And that’s the end of my list. While I admit that I’m probably stretching some things, in the grand picture the contradictions I brought up here are still damaging the finely crafted lore of Guild Wars 1. (As well as making little sense in some cases).

Well, based on what you said, yeah, the Orrians should have crushed the Charr. But they didn’t, and that was established in GW1, so I don’t see how that damages GW1’s lore. I’m going to venture a guess that Abaddon (who wanted Orr’s downfall and was in control of the titans), may have had something to do with it.
Khilbron was also able to teleport in GW1, an ability which he may have had before becoming a lich, so transportation of the scrolls wouldn’t be a problem.

I admit, the teleportation bit is something I didn’t consider. Could be the case, but I’d prefer a straight answer from ArenaNet and not leaving us guessing around.

You misunderstood. The invasion simply doesn’t make sense. It didn’t need any explanation at all. The Orrians were these folks who revered the Five Gods very much as they once lived among them, then the charr came and defeated them, but the advisor blew everyone up.

And this got turned into the Orrians being supreme magic-users who should’ve crushed the charr with the flick of their mind after being woken from their sleep, but still got defeated by illogical, weary charr forces who didn’t kill a creepy old guy holed up in his tower which was in the middle of conquered territory. Does it make any sense to you?

I Think you’ve answered all of your own questions. the orrian armada was docked in the river so the char went around to avoid it. It would likely take more than 12 hours to embark the fleet and be ready to bombard the char on the coast so they likely held the fleet in port to keep the crews to defend the city.

as for kilbron jutu being able to menouver through the char lines undetected, this really isn’t an impossible feat for a small band of infultrators in any battlesituation, and it’s certainly easier than moving an entire fleet through a line.

Yes, I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t really think there was any established lore about the Orrian people in GW1, so Arenanet got to fill in the gaps. Admittedly, they did make Orr seem like a city of superhumans , but from a lore standpoint, I’d say the person who wrote the scrolls was probably exaggerating the magic use. Also, I think the developers meant to point out that there was a lot of magic because of Zhaitan.

I’m pretty sure the ridiculous misuse of magic for mundane purposes in Orr only went on until the Bloodstones were created, so the civilians would have been useless.

A lot of the early points you bring up aren’t actually contradictions as such, but rather your belief that a more logical route existed. The route the Charr took may have been the best one for them for numerous reasons we’ll never know. Likewise, they may not have used the Searing cauldrons within 12 hours for other reasons. Perhaps it takes a lot of charging or something— in Pre-Searing, we can see the Shamans buzzing around their cauldron, and it seems very likely to me that a force as powerful as the Searing can’t be fired off easily.

Thalador.4218:

Exhausted, ferocious invaders & primitive pyromancers winning over nation of disciplined and highly magical superheroes in battlefields completely unknown to the invaders…

You’re extrapolating this “disciplined and highly magical superheroes” bit from very little information, here. It’s well-established that while the Orrians made magic commonplace in their everyday lives, the use of magic in warfare was widespread anyway. Charr magic may have been primitive but its effective.

Besides which, civilians with magically-imbued strength do NOT equal an army to me. There’s nothing to suggest ‘discipline’— I would assume the very opposite. I would picture civilians, magically-enhanced or not, facing a vast army of vicious soldiers and pyromancers, and I’d put my money on the Charr.

Besides, the Orrians’ magical proficiency didn’t secure them an easy victory in the actual Guild Wars, did it? I think we can assume that even if magic is commonplace in the everyday lives of Orrians, that doesn’t mean they have a distinct advantage in warfare, especially when the army itself is elsewhere and we’re relying on civilians. Civilians aren’t disciplined. They’re terrified.

@Jibe Tube: Leaving a portion of the armada in the docks is one thing. Leaving the entire fleet is another. Also keep in mind that the Orrians knew all too well that they were the next on the charr’s list, yet they didn’t prepare their ace for the coming battles, despite having time to prepare before the invasion arrived.

“An otherwise unremarkable King, Zoran of Orr was a patron and a seafarer. He guided Orr’s navy into prominence.”

If my army was undermanned, but I had a corsair fleet sworn to fight for me and my royal fleet that was unparalelled in Tyria, I would sure as hell build my entire defense strategy on capitalizing this, especially when I know that my foe has no naval force. Not have them jamming the docks doing nothing.

@Excelliate: I doubt the Orrians’ magical affinity originates from Zhaitan. Sure, after the gods tampered with Zhaitan’s energies to empower the bloodstone, but that’s a secondary source (and then everyone could say that they are using Zhaitan’s energies – stretching, of course). The Artesian Waters – the Source of Orr – which is said to have acted as a beacon that drew the gods to Tyria from the Mists is what I consider being the primary font of Orrian magic. The people drank, cooked, and bathed in that water for hundreds of years, which would neatly explain why magic was so natural to them.

@SpeedFiend: Given that most of Tyria was a magic-ravaged battlefield when Abaddon gave the knowledge of magic to the races and that the King Doric had to beseech the gods or else humanity would’ve been wiped from the world, I doubt Wren was so peaceful and idyllic in 1-0 BE. Also, I believe the writers’ intent was to give us a feeling of the Orrian lifestyle before the Cataclysm, so I’d say the Ascalonian merchant has definitely written it after Exodus.

@Neilos: Not only my belief, but the evidence that indeed there was a more logical route and/or scenario. The problem is that right now it looks as if not much thought was put into fleshing out these events and making them align well with Guild Wars 1 lore. Instead, it feels like they were simply dumped into the game because they sounded cool.

It takes a few minutes for 3 shamans to sear a fishing village. They could’ve unleashed dozens of mini-Searings in that 12 hours (or just a few big ones, or one impossibly brutal: 4-6 or more shamans charging it for 12 hours), yet they didn’t, and it’s illogical in my opinion.

And I’d like to emphasize that the titans wanted Arah’s destruction ASAP. I don’t think it needs mentioning what whould have happened to the charr commander that ordered his forces to the long way around, effectively defying his gods. The titans didn’t care what the charr thought: they would’ve thrown them against the Orrian fleet if it meant a quicker fulfillment of their task.

Correction: Orrians never wanted victory in the Guild War. They wanted to stop hostilities. They rose to defend themselves only when the other two warring kingdoms brought their petty war to them. And because of Orrian involvement, the casualties eclipsed that of the previous two combined. I’d bet my money that if Orr had wanted to assert dominance over the Kryta and Ascalon, it would’ve succeeded.

I disagree with the terrified bit. Sure, children, the elderly and some others should’ve been evacuated (cough Orrian fleet cough), but I seriously doubt that most young adults would’ve huddled up in a corner and started whimpering. Humanity of those ages believed the charr to be nothing but primitive beasts eating and sacrificing their human prisoners (which they did a lot, though), so they should’ve known that apathy and cowardice in the face of the enemy that threatened their lives and their kingdom just lessens the chance of their own survival.

I’d also like to point out that neither Separatists nor the majority of the bandits (the civilians disillusioned with the system) are soldiers, yet they are pretty capable at setting ambushes and fighting – and they don’t even have the magical expertise that Orrians had.

All in all, I do think the Orrian civilians had both the means and the merit to at least slow down if not halt the charr invasion, but it wasn’t thought over by the writers.

Thalador.4218:

@Neilos: Not only my belief, but the evidence that indeed there was a more logical route and/or scenario. The problem is that right now it looks as if not much thought was put into fleshing out these events and making them align well with Guild Wars 1 lore. Instead, it feels like they were simply dumped into the game because they sounded cool.

You provided convincing speculation, it’s true, but it’s all speculation. There could have been a hundred different factors, as there are in any war. My point is, there’s no reason to label it a “contradiction”. Its just seemingly counterintuitive (from a point of view that has scarcely any of the facts)— and even then, that’s only if you assume the time saved by going that route justifies the fact they’d have to face the Orrian navy before reaching the city.

Thalador.4218:

Correction: Orrians never wanted victory in the Guild War. They wanted to stop hostilities. They rose to defend themselves only when the other two warring kingdoms brought their petty war to them. And because of Orrian involvement, the casualties eclipsed that of the previous two combined. I’d bet my money that if Orr had wanted to assert dominance over the Kryta and Ascalon, it would’ve succeeded.

Well, that’s only the story of Orr’s national involvement in the final Guild War. There were at least two Guild Wars before that, almost certainly before King Reza was in power, and the Orrians weren’t stomping the other human nations. I also imagine Orrian Guilds would’ve been battling for non-humanitarian reasons prior to Reza’s involvement in the Third Guild War. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Guilds of that era frequently acted with little regard for law or government, even going to battle.

Thalador.4218:

I disagree with the terrified bit. Sure, children, the elderly and some others should’ve been evacuated (cough Orrian fleet cough), but I seriously doubt that most young adults would’ve huddled up in a corner and started whimpering. Humanity of those ages believed the charr to be nothing but primitive beasts eating and sacrificing their human prisoners (which they did a lot, though), so they should’ve known that apathy and cowardice in the face of the enemy that threatened their lives and their kingdom just lessens the chance of their own survival.

I’d also like to point out that neither Separatists nor the majority of the bandits (the civilians disillusioned with the system) are soldiers, yet they are pretty capable at setting ambushes and fighting – and they don’t even have the magical expertise that Orrians had.

All in all, I do think the Orrian civilians had both the means and the merit to at least slow down if not halt the charr invasion, but it wasn’t thought over by the writers.

I stand by what I said above: I don’t think you can really say civilians, even ones magically strength-enhanced, are more than enough of a match for a vast, trained army.

Particularly since magic was commonplace in warfare already anyway. What was striking about the Orrian use of magic wasn’t its power, it was its commonness.

It’s simple, Abbadon somehow gimped Orrian magic so they were useless when the charr came.

Perhaps the Cataclysm was caste earlier within those 12 hours then we are lead to believe, sucking the magic from the area in process which led to a helpless defeat?

Regardless, a sudden loss of magic would explain how easily the charr were able to defeat them, specifically as a people who likely couldn’t imagine life without it.

I also go with the notion that the searing cauldrons require some charge time and can’t just instantly be spammed, It could be that the charr were in the process of ransacking the city while the cauldrons were being set up to level it, given that the charr seem to be into annihilating entire structures. However the cataclysm occurred before they were fully functional.

From what I’m understanding, you’re simultaneously calling the charr stupid for not using their magic to quickly crush the Orr, and wondering why the Orr didn’t crush the charr with their superior magic, but I’m not understanding why you think neither of these things happened.

It mentions that the Orrians were hopeful of a quick victory against the charr, but that their hopes were dashed. This suggests to me both that the Orr used their magic in the battle, but that the charr – possibly even using some of their cauldrons – countered or defeated them. Crushed them, really, in less than half a day of fighting.

As for the river. (though a narrow bay,would be more likely). I suspect that the reason we enter Orr as we are doing in GW2 has to do with the form and the way the city is defended. From a defendable point of view it would be logic tomake the main gates bout where nowaday the dungeon entrance is, making sure that to reach these gates you have to circle all around the city. leaving you exposed to the defenders inside. As for the sea-arm/river, I suspect that where it enters the city the shores where high cliffs.with wooden scaffolding making it easy for traders and goods to go in and out of the city, but easy to destroy, closing off that entrance.

@Neilos: You keep mentioning “hundreds of different factors” and telling me that my theory has “scarcely any facts,” but don’t go on to explain what those factors are or why my perspective lacks these so-called facts.

And again, the other points I brought up in my response to your previous post are more than enough to question the sense of the charr taking a detour, instead of striding into Arah from the east.

It takes a few minutes for 3 shamans to sear a fishing village. They could’ve unleashed dozens of mini-Searings in that 12 hours (or just a few big ones, or one impossibly brutal: 4-6 or more shamans charging it for 12 hours), yet they didn’t, and it’s illogical in my opinion.

And I’d like to emphasize that the titans wanted Arah’s destruction ASAP. I don’t think it needs mentioning what whould have happened to the charr commander that ordered his forces to the long way around, effectively defying his gods. The titans didn’t care what the charr thought: they would’ve thrown them against the Orrian fleet if it meant a quicker fulfillment of their task.

Scorch Emberspire: “Always toward Arah, where the gods once lived. All that awaited us there was death. What sort of god would lead its people to destruction?”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/A_Flickering_Flame#Dialogue

Knowing the nature of the titans it requires minimal assumption to say that they would have commanded their minions to take the fastest route leading to their ultimate goal. Without hesitating for a single second.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_the_Flame_Legion_before_they_complete_their_ritual

Three shamans * One cauldron * A couple of minutes = The destruction of an entire village.

Multiply those factors (many more shamans in the invasion force, at least three Searing Cauldrons, and about 12 hours) and you get a much greater Searing. As I mentioned in the OP:

Also, I thought that this armada was what kept back the charr from attacking that way: maybe it is the case (though then again I question Flame Legion competence: one Searing ritual and the fleet would’ve been turned into floatsam and jetsam)

Especially when we consider that Abaddon pulled off something similar when he saved Jadoth from the pursuing Forgotten fleet (as well as the fact that the first cauldron(s) was/were given to the charr by the titans, Abaddon’s servants):

An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

— Scriptures of Abaddon, 1BE

If something eerily similar worked before, chances are there it’s going to work again with similar results.

Neilos, the Orrians never ever fought in the previous two Guild Wars. The whole scroll is phrased in a way to tell how mighty Orr was: when they did enter the third, the casualties eclipsed that of the previous two combined [, which was only fought between Kryta and Ascalon].

I won’t argue with your beliefs, but you don’t seem to acknowledge that in the Guild Wars universe civilians do choose to fight and in many cases are quite good at it. Another example to the ones I listed before: much of the Ministry of Purity came from the ordinary people.

@Bard: I must say I really like that theory. The Cataclysm drained incredible amounts of magic from the region before exploding. This included the Source of Orr, the Orrians, the charr shamans and their cauldrons, and last but not least Zhaitan, whose magic gave a special twist to the explosion and reanimated quite a few of the deceased – the wandering dead that became the bulk of the Lich Lord’s army.

And even if it was a temporary drain from which everyone and everything could have recuperated, it temporarily prevented the use of magic. The charr quickly got over this, but the Orrian people to whom utilizing magic was just as normal as using their own hands it was devastating.

I’d be very content if this turned out to be true. Hopefully more will be revealed about the origins of the Lost Scrolls and the Cataclysm’s magic, in say, a plot that deals with Abaddon’s legacy and the reason why he betrayed the other Five.

@Son of Elias: I could accept that, however, I’d like to refer you to one of the points in the OP that deals with this:

3./b.) Ancient Risen Charr MIA: Imagine the barnacle and coral-covered Orrian risen just in charr. In other words: where are the corrupted, shambling remains of the charr invasion force? And for that matter, aside from the cauldrons, why do we see next to nothing of the war that was fought there in 1071 AE? Orr looks like as if it was only damaged in the Cataclysm, and its now undead citizens were never fighting and dying in a bloody war. (Malchor even believes it’s festival time near Dwayna’s temple when he sees those light orbs hanging and lit.)

Why can’t we see craters, Searing crystals, skill challenges or PoIs dealing with a bloody battlefield where the remaining Orrian army was massacred? To me, the absence of residual magical energy from a great battle means they barely used magic during the invasion.

Thalador.4218:

@Neilos: You keep mentioning “hundreds of different factors” and telling me that my theory has “scarcely any facts,” but don’t go on to explain what those factors are or why my perspective lacks these so-called facts.

That’s exactly my point. We don’t have the facts. We’re drawing conclusions and declaring contradictions where scarcely any information exists. I’m not making any assertions here; I’m saying we can’t.

Thalador.4218:

Neilos, the Orrians never ever fought in the previous two Guild Wars. The whole scroll is phrased in a way to tell how mighty Orr was: when they did enter the third, the casualties eclipsed that of the previous two combined [, which was only fought between Kryta and Ascalon].

When I read the Orrian history scrolls, I didn’t take from it that Orr didn’t take part in the previous Guild Wars. It didn’t suggest that to me. It only discusses the Third.

Thalador.4218:

I won’t argue with your beliefs, but you don’t seem to acknowledge that in the Guild Wars universe civilians do choose to fight and in many cases are quite good at it. Another example to the ones I listed before: much of the Ministry of Purity came from the ordinary people.

Civilians choose to fight in many real-world scenarios, as well. I’m not saying it’s impossible; I’m saying it’s a stretch to assume a civilian population could defeat the forces of a Charr army, based solely on a little information about magical strength-enhancement in day-to-day life.