Guild Wars 2

gw1 wiki says

The Cauldron of Cataclysm is the gigantic cauldron that was given to the Charr by their false gods, the Titans. The Charr used the cauldron to perform the ritual of the Searing that breached the Great Northern Wall and damaged all of Ascalon. It is said that the magic powering the cauldron was older than even the Titans, powered by beings who had long ago fallen into sleep.

were these made by the elder dragons?

No, the titans are a far more primal concept and threat to the world than even the dragons are.
Some would call them demons, some will call them primordial elementals, some will call them titans of the very fabric of this world.

They are born from fusing tormented, agonized or otherwise twisted souls who are past redemption or restoration. These spirits merge and become a spectre that cannot survive on it’s own. This spectre creates a body from whatever material is around to survive in, and then goes on it’s agonizing rampage. Propably because they have “fallen” they feel the inate need to reduce the entire world to a fallen state, it’s unknown how much intelligence these creatures still possess.

The titans souls are formed in the underworld and can under normal circumstances not get out. Some many aeons later Abaddon fell into Madness and corrupted the underworld which at the time was a stable and “fair” realm. The twisting of abaddon’s Madness turnt the realm into a Foundry of Failed Creations where the gods and the forgotten aimed to keep everything sealed, but they couldn’t control what was going on inside anymore. What was once a prison has now become a realm full of free demons and twisted spirits. (the wardens just left and locked the door).

the Jaw of Oblivion, or Hrangmer is where they first surfaced. They found the Charr and gave them the Cauldron which they used for the cataclysm. The titans surfaced once before but were driven back. At some point Glint revealed the Flameseeker Prophecy which foretold a few key points.

Because of these keypoints history was writing itself. The mursaat knew that because of the Titans, they would die. So they went through every effort to found an order, which later became the White Mantle, to fuel the bloodstone which they used as a battery to seal the Gate of Komalie. But at the time they didn’t know that it was because of their efforts they would fail and die. So trying to prevent history is what caused it to happen.

It’s not quite known exactly what the cauldron is, and we know it’s made by the titans. How old it is, how powerful it is, we know very little of this. But what we do know is that the Titans, under orders of Abaddon gave the cauldron to the Charr, because he knew the war would go all the way to Orr. Then Abaddon gave Khilbron the scrolls which were then used to sink Orr. The final product of this story was: The gate of Komalie would open, and abaddon could escape with the titans.

TLDR:
The Titans are twisted elementals made by corrupted souls who once lived in the underworld, and later fell to the madness of Abaddon. They indirectly caused the end of the Mursaat, and gave the cauldron to the Charr so they could fight a war all the way to Orr.

I always took the Elder Dragons to be vastly older/more primal than the Titans and certainly a considerably greater threat than them.

Randulf.7614:

I always took the Elder Dragons to be vastly older/more primal than the Titans and certainly a considerably greater threat than them.

It kind of depends how far back you, and the angle.
The elder dragons are a primal threat to tyria, while the titans are a primal threat whose origin ties much closer to the chaos of the mists. I don’t know which one is older, but the titans are closer to the primal essence that’s more everything

To put it in perspective, you have a pantheon of gods who rule over earth. They are as old as the planet and dominate it without question. But thats tied to the age and origin of the solar system. That solar system is but a speck in what we call the universe. So the titans would be much closer to this second thing. They’re not necessarily more dangerous than the elder dragons to us, but there’s no knowing which party is older. It’s just that the titans have the possibility of being older. The titans we see in game are fairly young, as they are actively made by abaddon’s servants. but there could be much older, much more primal titans out there.

@Brokensunday, maybe, maybe not. There’s speculation on the topic, but we don’t know either way.

@Amaimon… there’s good information in there, but much of that is unsubstantiated at best, and outright misinformation at worst.

Amaimon.7823:

No, the titans are a far more primal concept and threat to the world than even the dragons are.

There’s no evidence of that. The farthest back we have indication of titans existing is contemporaneous with the Seers, while the Elder Dragons are known have have gone back at least a cycle or two (given our current knowledge, ~20,000 years) further. In GW1 our party of eight slew dozens of titans, while in GW2 the combined forces of the continent have managed to kill two Elder Dragons.

some will call them titans of the very fabric of this world.

I’ve never seen an NPC call a titan that.

who are past redemption or restoration [snip] become a spectre that cannot survive on it’s own [snip] and then goes on it’s agonizing rampage. Propably because they have “fallen” they feel the inate need to reduce the entire world to a fallen state, it’s unknown how much intelligence these creatures still possess.

Other parts of this section are good, but all of this is unsubstantiated. Additionally, we know that titans are intelligent- there are several points where they’re known to talk, this being perhaps the most direct.

The titans souls are formed in the underworld and can under normal circumstances not get out. Some many aeons later Abaddon fell into Madness and corrupted the underworld which at the time was a stable and “fair” realm. The twisting of abaddon’s Madness turnt the realm into a Foundry of Failed Creations where the gods and the forgotten aimed to keep everything sealed, but they couldn’t control what was going on inside anymore. What was once a prison has now become a realm full of free demons and twisted spirits. (the wardens just left and locked the door).

A.) Abaddon’s Realm of Torment was not, and never had been, the Underworld. That was an apparently connected but distinct realm under Grenth.
B.) The Foundry of Failed Creations was one part of the Realm of Torment, not the whole thing.
C.) The Foundry as we saw it was created by the Fury, not Abaddon.
D.) The wardens did not leave. They were overwhelmed, driven out, or taken prisoner.

which they used for the cataclysm.

The Searing. The Cataclysm was a separate event in Orr.

we know it’s made by the titans.

No, we don’t. The titans gave it to the charr Shamans, but we don’t know if they made it, were given it themselves by Abaddon, or unearthed it somewhere else. The dev comments regarding the Cauldron can be interpreted to mean that it’s linked to the Elder Dragons, most likely Kralkatorrik, although that too is speculation.

Then Abaddon gave Khilbron the scrolls which were then used to sink Orr.

Khilbron found the scrolls in Orr. It’s hinted that Abaddon’s agents were involved, but it’s also possible that Khilbron pursued them of his own initiative.

The Titans are twisted elementals

Not in the usual sense- they have no known relation to the earth/ice/etc. elementals in the games.

who once lived in the underworld, and later fell to the madness of Abaddon.

As far as we know, Abaddon’s titans don’t predate him, and weren’t corrupted, but were created explicitly to serve him.

Which is an important thing you missed- the titans were created. With the possible exception of Gorseval, there’s no indication of a titan arising naturally.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

@Brokensunday, maybe, maybe not. There’s speculation on the topic, but we don’t know either way.

@Amaimon… there’s good information in there, but much of that is unsubstantiated at best, and outright misinformation at worst.

Amaimon.7823:

No, the titans are a far more primal concept and threat to the world than even the dragons are.

There’s no evidence of that. The farthest back we have indication of titans existing is contemporaneous with the Seers, while the Elder Dragons are known have have gone back at least a cycle or two (given our current knowledge, ~20,000 years) further. In GW1 our party of eight slew dozens of titans, while in GW2 the combined forces of the continent have managed to kill two Elder Dragons.
I never said they were more dangerous though

some will call them titans of the very fabric of this world.

I’ve never seen an NPC call a titan that.
no, by “some” I meant the playerbase

who are past redemption or restoration [snip] become a spectre that cannot survive on it’s own [snip] and then goes on it’s agonizing rampage. Propably because they have “fallen” they feel the inate need to reduce the entire world to a fallen state, it’s unknown how much intelligence these creatures still possess.

Other parts of this section are good, but all of this is unsubstantiated. Additionally, we know that titans are intelligent- there are several points where they’re known to talk, this being perhaps the most direct.
thanks, I didn’t know there was a talking titan, then they have some knowledge

The titans souls are formed in the underworld and can under normal circumstances not get out. Some many aeons later Abaddon fell into Madness and corrupted the underworld which at the time was a stable and “fair” realm. The twisting of abaddon’s Madness turnt the realm into a Foundry of Failed Creations where the gods and the forgotten aimed to keep everything sealed, but they couldn’t control what was going on inside anymore. What was once a prison has now become a realm full of free demons and twisted spirits. (the wardens just left and locked the door).

A.) Abaddon’s Realm of Torment was not, and never had been, the Underworld. That was an apparently connected but distinct realm under Grenth.
I was going on memory, I thought the realm of torment was within the underworld, the foundry was within the realm of torment
B.) The Foundry of Failed Creations was one part of the Realm of Torment, not the whole thing. see A
C.) The Foundry as we saw it was created by the Fury, not Abaddon.
If the indian guy at a company made a cellphone, is the indian guy the creator or the company?
D.) The wardens did not leave. They were overwhelmed, driven out, or taken prisoner.
true, but they also just put the realm on a complete lockdown (even more so than it already was)

which they used for the cataclysm.

The Searing. The Cataclysm was a separate event in Orr.
yea, I mixed the searing up

we know it’s made by the titans.

No, we don’t. The titans gave it to the charr Shamans, but we don’t know if they made it, were given it themselves by Abaddon, or unearthed it somewhere else. The dev comments regarding the Cauldron can be interpreted to mean that it’s linked to the Elder Dragons, most likely Kralkatorrik, although that too is speculation.
my bad, I meant “we know it’s NOT made by the titans”, I’ll fix it in the main post

Then Abaddon gave Khilbron the scrolls which were then used to sink Orr.

Khilbron found the scrolls in Orr. It’s hinted that Abaddon’s agents were involved, but it’s also possible that Khilbron pursued them of his own initiative.
*It’s confirmed that the agent’s of abaddon did it, Razakel, The Liar

The Titans are twisted elementals

Not in the usual sense- they have no known relation to the earth/ice/etc. elementals in the games.

who once lived in the underworld, and later fell to the madness of Abaddon.

As far as we know, Abaddon’s titans don’t predate him, and weren’t corrupted, but were created explicitly to serve him.
They are elementals in the literal sense: a body made of whatever elemental material is available inhabited by a spirit, or other anomalous consiousness. Yes, they are different from the naturally forming elementals. But the titans bodies are made of rock, ice, lava, or any other random material just the same.

Which is an important thing you missed- the titans were created. With the possible exception of Gorseval, there’s no indication of a titan arising naturally.
it was my recollection that abaddon started making more, but that could’ve been my imagination

Amaimon.7823:

If the indian guy at a company made a cellphone, is the indian guy the creator or the company?

Last I checked, Abaddon was neither an employer nor a legal entity. Besides, the Fury was a servant of Dhuum. How much relevence that actually has is an open question, but that’s the point- we just don’t know with a lot of this stuff.

*It’s confirmed that the agent’s of abaddon did it, Razakel, The Liar

That’s fair. Hinted was the wrong word- Razakel came out and said that that he used Khilbron to ‘wipe Orr from this world.’ The problem is that we don’t know what that means. Did he hand Khilbron the Scrolls and say “Hey, our god will be happy if you use these to destroy your country”? Did he lie to Khilbron about the Scrolls, and let the fool pursue them and retrieve them himself in the hopes of saving his country? Or did he simply convert Khilbron to Abaddon’s worship and then stand in the shadows as a man who revered magic and remorseless logic acted as he inevitably would in the face of mass destruction?

We certainly know that Abaddon was involved, but it’s not necessarily accurate to say that he gave Khilbron the Scrolls. A minor nitpick, sure, but it’s doing a disservice to a very important and ambiguous character in GW lore.

Amaimon.7823:

some will call them titans of the very fabric of this world.

I’ve never seen an NPC call a titan that.
no, by “some” I meant the playerbase

I’ve never seen anyone in the GW community call titans “of the very fabric of this world”. And if they did, they’d be wrong, or at best unsubstantiated in their claim.

Amaimon.7823:

C.) The Foundry as we saw it was created by the Fury, not Abaddon.
If the indian guy at a company made a cellphone, is the indian guy the creator or the company?

The Indian guy is the creator, the company is the owner.

But let’s step back to the actual situation:

The Fury did not work for Abaddon, but rather worked with as part of an alliance. He worked for Dhuum. Although heavily implied, it is never stated which god (if either or not both) knew how to make titans, nor which one (again: if either or not both) actively made titans prior to the events of GW1.

Amaimon.7823:

D.) The wardens did not leave. They were overwhelmed, driven out, or taken prisoner.
true, but they also just put the realm on a complete lockdown (even more so than it already was)

Not really. If you’re referring to the Realm of Torment as a whole, it became a prison for the first time (so all lore indicates) when Abaddon was imprisoned; when the Margonites managed to break free (at an unknown point in time I might add – but presumably around 200 years prior to GW1 as that is when Abaddon’s agents slipped into the world of Tyria), the Forgotten had been at war with the Margonites and torment demons since, unable to keep them locked up. So there was no “complete lockdown” for the Domain of Anguish, just a bastion at which the Forgotten held their position (the Gate of Anguish – and elsewhere in the Nightmare Realm, the other gates).

Amaimon.7823:

They are elementals in the literal sense: a body made of whatever elemental material is available inhabited by a spirit, or other anomalous consiousness. Yes, they are different from the naturally forming elementals. But the titans bodies are made of rock, ice, lava, or any other random material just the same.

They are made from any nearby material. In this sense, we’ve seen titans made out of flesh – those are most certainly not elemental in any sense of the term. In theory, you could have titans made out of buildings, discarded weapons, and so forth.

While some titans may appear to be elementals (such as all the original ones we met), not all are. And by Tyrian definitions of what an elemental is (which is far more important than “the literal sense”), they are not elementals at all (as elementals is defined by a magically created construct of an element, either by spell or ambient magic).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Amaimon.7823:

They are elementals in the literal sense: a body made of whatever elemental material is available inhabited by a spirit, or other anomalous consiousness. Yes, they are different from the naturally forming elementals. But the titans bodies are made of rock, ice, lava, or any other random material just the same.

They are made from any nearby material. In this sense, we’ve seen titans made out of flesh – those are most certainly not elemental in any sense of the term. In theory, you could have titans made out of buildings, discarded weapons, and so forth.

While some titans may appear to be elementals (such as all the original ones we met), not all are. And by Tyrian definitions of what an elemental is (which is far more important than “the literal sense”), they are not elementals at all (as elementals is defined by a magically created construct of an element, either by spell or ambient magic).

I don’t understand your rebutal. You say they can’t be elementals because they’re made of random matters lying around while a real elemental is made of random matters lying around..

Your definition of elemental is right, a body made of 1 kind of matter fueled by a magical core. But that magical core can be ambient magic or a spell, like the “normal” elementals, but it could also be a twisted bundle of spirits.
Titans seem to have a preferable “form” since when they’re made of ember, tar, ice or flesh, they always take similar forms. But if an elemental was made by a spell, it could just as easily mimic that form. So I don’t think you can tell an elemental and titan apart until it tries to kill you (wherin a titan is propably a hundred times more deadly and intelligent)

Elementals’ bodies are made only out of raw natural material and are likely soulless, nigh mindless the vast majority of the time.

Titans’ bodies can be made of unnatural/non-landscape and raw natural material and in theory could be made out of refined natural material, and have multiple souls and are very much sapient.

That’s a pretty big difference that goes way beyond just what the bodies happen to be made up of. And even if you managed to shape an elemental like the standard titan form (no evidence you really can, but obviously you could of lesser titan forms), there’s enough differences in mentality that they’re different too.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Elementals’ bodies are made only out of raw natural material and are likely soulless, nigh mindless the vast majority of the time.

Titans’ bodies can be made of unnatural/non-landscape and raw natural material and in theory could be made out of refined natural material, and have multiple souls and are very much sapient.

That’s a pretty big difference that goes way beyond just what the bodies happen to be made up of. And even if you managed to shape an elemental like the standard titan form (no evidence you really can, but obviously you could of lesser titan forms), there’s enough differences in mentality that they’re different too.

You can’t tell the difference in mentality until you’ve personally encountered them. And yes, an elemental of flesh or bone would be easily recognizable. But a regular elemental can really take can any random shape, especially if a spell molds it. We just see 1 model ingame because anet can’t possibly be expected to make 5000 models for every creature.

We actually have no reason to believe that “a regular elemental can take on any random shape”.

The vast majority of all elementals are humanoid. In GW1, the only non-humanoid elementals were the crags, roaring ethers (and those sharing the models) and the stalagmite – Crystal Spiders too, arguably, but honestly I’d list them as branded given current knowledge.

In GW2, all standard ice, fire, and earth elementals are humanoid; even greater earth elementals take on humanoid arms.

Regardless of the element – whether ice, fire, sand, crystal, or rock and soil – the vast majority of elementals take on a humanoid shape.

And this is including when ArenaNet did make multiple models for the same kind of elemental – we have at least three different ice elemental models throughout GW1 (two being humanoid). Just take a look through this list.

If they’re not humanoid/bipedal, there’s a strong chance of them being quadpedal.

Plus, when we get to when people who are unfamiliar find titans, they do not call them elementals. In Defend North Kryta Province in GW1, Greywind says this about his first encounter with titans:

Captain Greywind: Thank the gods, it’s you! We were out scavenging for goods when a massive beast crossed our path, we lost many settlers to it before we managed to escape. The creature seems to have found more of its kind and they are not far behind.

He never even considers calling it an elemental.