Guild Wars 2

I originally posted this on Konig’s Theory Crafting thread. However, I felt it was a tad off subject and I didn’t want to disrupt the flow that thread was heading in. Therefore, I’ll make my own thread. Basically, this was a discussion between a friend and I on skype. For his sake, I’ve turned his name into, “My Friend,” instead of his real name. <3

I think that in order to make Scarlet’s story line a little more worth it they need to start releasing heavier details:

Hints / Explantions to why she is doing what she’s doing
Further explanation on her mental disabilities and how they effect the world around her
Maybe a fall out with the Aetherblades? She’s totally using them. No one likes being used forever
Maybe a boss fight with her — let us see how Scarlet handles herself. Maybe she actually has to run away from us (she has shown a lot of signs to being a coward).

[1:54:50 PM] Mint: A lot of hate coming from her is because we see:

[1:57:06 PM] Mint: Scarlet portraying herself as this insane character who’s super powerful — with no real proof. We don’t know why she’s insane, why she’s doing what she’s doing, or even really how she’s doing it. Answering those questions to a larger degree than they are now would really help that character. On a power scale, people are acknowledging that some how it’s her when it really isn’t. The cause-and-effect -ISN’T- her. The TA? Sure, she probably gave them a suggestion and some nice things but. Who built the tower? NC/Krait. Who’s spreading the hallucinations? NC/Krait. Who’s inside the tower? NC/Krait. Throughout the entire TA plot— you’re fighting . . . well, TA.

[1:57:47 PM] Mint: So whereas she is involved in the influence-of, she’s kinda failing in the activity-of. Which I wonder if it ties into her. . .

[1:57:54 PM] Mint: “Let’s play, okay I’m bored bye.”

[1:58:00 PM] My Friend: Exactly.

[1:58:18 PM] My Friend: That’s my issue, really. She’s just “there”.

[1:58:21 PM] Mint: But this:

[1:57 PM] Mint: “Let’s play, okay I’m bored bye.”
Is a mental flaw.

[1:58:34 PM] Mint: And if they DO play it off as. . .

[1:58:42 PM] Mint: “Hey I’ll help you, okay now I’m bored, bye”

[1:58:50 PM] Mint: I can really see people ultimately -turning- on her.

[1:59:12 PM] Mint: And it would be (though I doubt they’ll do this), interesting if the alliances she’s assisted / influenced -betrayed- her.

[2:00:05 PM] My Friend: I would absolutely love that.

[2:00:14 PM] My Friend: I want her to have underestimated them.

[2:01:38 PM] My Friend: In fact, that whole analysis there:

[2:01:41 PM] My Friend: Post it somewhere.

Soo I’m posting it here. Basically the summery is:

Scarlet has shown a lot of signs to start something, and then abandon it. However, it’s no longer studies she’s doing this with, but sentient beings, who could ultimately turn on her. I think it would be a smooth and fascinating transition if these villains we’ve all come to note (the alliances, Aetherblades, etc), ultimately turned on her in some form of sweet betrayal. Either they assist, prompt, or cause her demise (cue Scarlet dieing as her machines close in on her?). Betrayal is beautiful in writing, and I feel like it would be a satisfactory end to the character.

There’s enough Scarlet hate, but I’d like to hear your opinions on this train of thought.

UPDATE

Dungeon Idea

I’ve personally thought that something like this, forcing everything she has been working towards to crash down on her would be a very useful tool to help the player-base get some satisfaction from the end of her story.

I agree whole heartedly. It would make the story more believable, and make her a more interesting villain.

People don’t like a villain who always gets away, and never suffers the consequences of his/her actions. It would also make the alliances that she has abused less black and white. Why do they all have to be pure evil? Have them turn on Scarlet, or ally themselves with the players for a change.

What this story needs is an unexpected twist… and not a new alliance. Please, after the Toxic Alliance, no more alliances! Lets see consequences for actions. Lets stop making every alliance hold the idiot ball all the time, and instead have them respond to the systematic abuse by Scarlet. Allow these alliances to have an identity.

I want to say I would be surprised if the Toxic Alliance wouldn’t completely fall into shambles once the krait learn that they’ve been tricked, but I don’t know that they’ll go this deep. It would be a great way to set up a chain reaction with some fallout from the Molten Alliance and possible abandonment by the Aetherblades.

I was about to make a similar thread, so I might just as well put my rant here. My problem with Scarlet is pretty simple, really. She’s the Joker’s clone (Batman’s Joker for those uninitiated). Now, Joker, and to some extension most Batman villains work because they represent or challenge an aspect of Batman: Catwoman challenges his principles, Scarecrow represents his use of fear driven to extreme, Killer Croc is brute strength to Bat’s cunning, and Joker… Well, Joker takes everything Batman stands for and turns it into a sick joke. He’s the perfect foil. With Scarlet, there is no one to compare and contrast her to. No one to give context to her craziness, because the cast of the living story is too large. You have Rox&Braham, you have Marjory&Kasmeer, you have Elen… yet no one willing to take center stage and be the driven hero to Scarlet’s nutty villain. The obvious character to fill that role from a narrative point of view would be Traehaerne, but we’ve all had more than enough of Treesus for the time being. But, there is an even more fitting choice: you.

Yes, you. And you. And you and you and you. Oh, and me as well I guess. Basically, the player character. This was a golden opportunity for the LS team to finally give the PC center stage, instead of having them run around in other people’s footsteps. And yes, I know, voice acting costs. But you know what? I don’t need VA. I played BG, I can survive without voice. I just need some dialogue choices where I can tell Scarlet off and tell her “I will stop you, nutjob”. I need for her to acknowledge me as a threat in some of her cutscenes, instead of being all “mwahahaha now let me boast of my triumphs and walk through this here portal while you stand motionless because the cutscene tells you so”. The elements for this relationship are already there, think about it: you were building alliances of good, she is building alliances of evil. It’s a simple, crude connection, but it can be used to build something deeper, something that makes the player feel involved. But nooooo. Why would we do that.

My other problem is something that Mint touched on already: the fact that we never face her directly. The writers commit a cardinal sin: they have her appear, spout some smug lines and then disappear without giving the heroes a chance to react. During all her appearances after the jubilee her presence wasn’t required for the success of her plans. She did absolutely nothing useful. She was there simply to be bloody annoying. And the writers shouldn’t be surprised if that gets on the people’s nerves. To go back to my Joker comparison, he always has a reason to be there when Batman is in jeopardy. He has a personal vendetta, which is well grounded in his backstory and his behaviour. And he doesn’t gloat about past triumphs, he focuses the next step of the game he has prepared there and then. When he has Bats hanging upside down over a tank of piranhas, he doesn’t take the time to reminiscence about the time he almost blew up Gotham three months ago, and oh, remember how he caused half the district to die of laughter? Good times. And he only does that where he beleves Bats is secured. Now let’s take Scarlet: she appears at the top of the Tower and stands there for five minutes blathering about her greatness, while the good guys stand there slack jawed, and then she walks leisurely through a portal. WHY IN THE WORLD DOES THAT SCENE EXIST. It can only be a clumsy attempt to remind people of the stuff that happened and reassure them of Scarlet’s awesomeness. Well, LS writing team, it backfired. For me it just symbolises all the things wrong with the character. You want us to take Scarlet seriously? Let us face her. Make her crush us into paste, but for God’s sake, let us land a few hits first! For a credible villain-hero showdown arc, you need both sides to be a threat to one another. So far, I’m not seeing it.

Whew. That’s long. And that’s not all, but I can’t think of all the other things now. Will add stuff later, maybe.

As much as I think it will be cool I don’t think that the alliances will turn on Scarlet. The molten alliance seems to have dissolved right after flame and frost ended and is likely they won’t work with each other again. The aetherblades seem to have lots of fear/respect of Scarlet for an unknown reason. The toxic alliance will also likely crumble once the tower falls due to the krait being tricked and now the know it. I could possibly see the aetherblades turning on her but there are no signs right now and don’t think the other alliances will get together just for revenge on her. Another thing is that from the wiki Scarlet just approached the dredge with an offer from the flame legion. No evidence she forced them to work together and I suspect she did the same with the krait and nightmare court. It seems that the alliances are more angry with each other than with Scarlet. I would be interested to know why the aetherblades are scared of Scarlet

We actually face scarlet herself every time the invasion events are successful…meaning that we havent faced her for months really. So we basicly have the potential for a heroic showdown where she just barely gets away from us still with a laughter, but we cant do it because the invasion events are largely ignored or used for champ farms. So theres that.

As for the alliances turning on her, the aetherblades and the molten appear to be bullied into obedience. That could work. Sure she keeps up the notion that nothing we did mattered, and maybe she is right about that, but i would like to see her slowly lose her cool, her confidence. Seeing how her madness takes a turn for desperation as she sees all her plans being destroyed prematurely one by one in front of her eyes. She appears weak for just a few minutes, and her bullied alliances begin to see that she can be beaten. They dont need to turn on her. They can just put down their weapons and walk out.

The krait of the toxic alliance could massacre the Nightmare Courtiers after their first and only attempt to make an alliance with another race proved to be a hoax and a failure, and race the players to get to her, to sacrifice her in a last desperate attempt to appease their true prophets.

That would only leave the surviving courtiers and the watchknight nightmares at her side. She would come to the realisation that for all her intents, she was nothing more than a courtier of her own, and she would break.

I dont expect any of this. But i can dream ^^

I would have loved to see her fail in some way, or how she reacted to a failure by one of her accomplices.

For example, When I first did hear that Scarlet was part of the fractal of Thaumanova Reactor, I thought that the explosion was something that really set her plans back a little. The more I thought about this, the more I got excited, because I wanted to see how she reacted to this. I felt that the whole character we know is just a play, and behind that is a really ruthless character who does not accept failure, not from herself or others.

this of course was just a silly thought, because Scarlet did of course not face failure since everything she and we do just is “after her plan”

SPOILER WARNING

I decided to expand a little on this concept. As I thought on it, I considered reasons why it may not happen (just throwing hypothetical concepts in my head other than, ’They’ve already written it.‘). One of the reasons I came up with was the fact that this game is not only for lore/story, but also PvE (and PvP). I thought of a dungeon concept that they would have, and I figured it’ll look something similar to this:

The player characters discover Scarlet’s lair. They go to defeat Scarlet, but half to defeat waves of: Molten Alliance, Aetherblades, and Twilight Alliance. They then defeat Scarlet.

We already know that the MA — to some degree — is still functioning/in assistance, because of the Wintersday patch and the Tower. It’s a good base idea for a dungeon if you’re going for something with a gauntlet theme, or even just a base theme. This is a concept that’s frequently seen / used (looking at you World of Warcraft). However, it doesn’t have a lot of story potential, which is the biggest problem right now. So, problem solving, I continued to come up with an answer to this question, using the C&E I posted above. It would look like this.

Through the Living Story, we see the alliances beginning to turn on Scarlet. Eventually (and maybe with some assistance), the player character, Jory, and friends discover how to get into Scarlet’s lair .

For the sake of simplicity, I built this lair with levels in my head. Her, being at either the top or bottom.

First Level: Work with <name> of the Molten Alliance and defeat the Clockwork Horrors .
First Level: Work with <name> of the Flame Legion against the Dredge and Clockwork Horrors .
First Level: Work with <name> of the Dredge against the Flame Legion and Clockwork Horrors .

I gave a few variants of how to do the first level. Admittedly, I’m fond of the first.

Second Level: Work with <name> of the Krait to defeat the Courtiers and Clockwork Horrors .
Second Level: Work with <name> of the Court to defeat the Krait and Clockwork Horrors .
Second Level: Work with <name> of the Twilight Alliance to defeat the Clockwork Horrors .

The first concept is going by the idea that was posted on the thread. The Krait slaughter Courtiers for their betrayal and manipulations, and seek revenge to please their prophet. I would truthfully choose the first or the last.

Third Level: Work with <name> of the Aetherblades to disarm the traps while defeating the Clockwork Horrors .

This idea would be your gauntlet and CoE-inspired (that room where you have to use the console while things blow up on you). Of course, it can be an easy, “Get from one side to the other,” but I’m fond of the gauntlet concept. I think it would add some difficulty.

With the Aetherblades they could even do a “civil war,” idea. Where you’re fighting against Aetherblades who are still loyal, and the horrors. I have boss fights for each level, look!

First level:
This would likely be a Clockwork Horror. Although, if you go with the other two options it can be a “leader,” or, "head of the organization.

Second level:
If you go with the first option, it could be a retinue member, another corrupted tree (maybe something with Scarlet-tech).
A clockwork horror for the last.
A krait for the middle.

Third level:
If you go with the civil war idea? It could be a leader / assistant of Scarlet. Maybe even the “leader” of the Aetherblades (considering Scarlet is boss, it would be someone she’s placed beneath her). It could be a commander. In fact, any Aetherblade official works.

The gauntlet, if made hard enough, could be considered the boss fight.

Lastly, it could be Scarlet’s “OMGWORLDDESTRUCTIONDEVICEOFDOOM,” clockwork horror. Maybe something that takes pieces of all the patches and stuffs them together (a flame blowing, toxin spewing, super golem).

Final floor. Defeat Scarlet .

At this point, you have all three NPCs helping you (MA, TA, Aether + Friends). You either kill or capture Scarlet (maybe you want to capture, your MA, TA, Aether friends disagree and turn on you? Get creative!). At this point:

She’s been betrayed
Revenge is sweet.
Scarlet is gone (dead/captured)
We get a cool (imo) dungeon
????
Profit.

Your conclusion that the Scarlet Briar story should have shown some proof of her insanity is correct; your conclusion that the story should have shown significant development and reveals is also correct.

In the recent The Nightmare Ends release, players are finally shown the most evidence to Scarlet’s madness to date… HOWEVER, IT IS TOO LITTLE TOO LATE!

The process that is Scarlet is akin to having a bandage torn off very, very slowly. It has been long, painful, and will leave a red mark once it is removed. The storytelling was sloppy, disjointed, and the character was poorly introduced throughout the past year.

One of the biggest flaws was preventing the player characters from interacting with the antagonist. I don’t count the times Scarlet appears for the final bonus event during an invasion, because she doesn’t leave any loot nor is she actually defeated (killed). The player has foiled her plans again and again, but hasn’t. Each time the players are informed by Scarlet that they failed to defeat her, effectively jerking them around for over a year. This isn’t fun gameplay; this is being a kitten.

Players want to see progress of victory. Sure, Scarlet can get away, but we want to know our victories are getting to her. We want to know we’re picking away at her ego and unraveling her confidence. Sure, we’ve been told exactly twice that we’re upsetting her: once with an exploding “gift,” the other in a cinematic, stating that we should watch our backs. Nevertheless, these threats are empty and show no signs that we’ve put a kink in efforts. This is boring!

I’ve given all the care I wish to give to critiquing the Living Scarlet Briar Story. Frankly, whenever the topic comes up, it tires me out. I know ArenaNet is listening, even telling us when this disaster will be over, but I feel the damage has been done. Folks are upset at what could have been a brilliant story telling technique. Judging their feedback to the community, I believe they’ve learned a lot and have a good idea what to improve for the next living story. Hopefully the message is clear enough, we want to fight the Elder Dragons!

wookiee.4631:

deepwinter.9015:

snip

If you know that Anet is listening, they’ve even admitted that she wasn’t well presented, and are about to wrap her “season” up, what are you complaining about? There’s nothing that can be done about her at this point, right?

Which is precisely why this thread isn’t about, “She’s doing this, this, and this wrong,” and more about, “Hey wouldn’t this be nice!?”

I can definitely see that happening – especially with the Nightmare Court and Krait. The alliance seems really fickle and it also seems like the alliance where she has used them the most. They have little reason to trust one another, and perhaps less reason to trust her.

However I’m not sure if the alliances turning against her is likely to have any impact – she’s been able to elude us thus far and we have a pretty formidable force going after her. It’s not exactly as if she’s a fringe villain xD.

We should find a way to prevent her from getting away again. Im sure it will be written into the initial final release with her. Or i hope so. I wouldnt want my victory spoiled by the uncomfortable question “Why couldnt/didnt we do this earlier?”

I don’t see members of the nightmare court turning on Scarlet as they seemed to have received some benefit from the alliance. However, the krait have been treated poorly by Scarlet. I’m surprised they haven’t turned on the nightmare court.

“I don’t see members of the nightmare court turning on Scarlet as they seemed to have received some benefit from the alliance. "

I’m completely at a loss to why the Nightmare Court didn’t bundle Scarlet up in one of their conversion pods and leave her there until she fell into Nightmare.

No I don’t want the alliances to turn on Scarlet. No I don’t want to “just” kill her. That will be too light of a punishment for the Lore Slayer.

I want to find out what Scarlet cared about. I want to find out who she loves. I want to find out what her dreams are. And when I do, I will crush and destory everything she cared, loved and dreamt about. And as she sit there crying, powerless to stop me, I will kill her. She must know the extent of her failures before she dies. Only then, will my rage toward the Lore Slayer be subdued.

lakdav.3694:

We should find a way to prevent her from getting away again. Im sure it will be written into the initial final release with her. Or i hope so. I wouldnt want my victory spoiled by the uncomfortable question “Why couldnt/didnt we do this earlier?”

Like the Great Eagles? :P

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Eagles

Anything. Explain in a few sentences by an NPC how she needs a network of devices to fine-tune her getaway teleportation gadget, then point us at it. Or make it part of the boss battle where she teleports all around the room, preventig us to get to her until we find a mechainic-specific way to disable her teleporting. Just something about her bogus receiverless gate/portal technology.

I like this sort of idea. Though I still think I’d prefer to see her come out of it alive and see her learn something, maybe turn it around and become a protagonist. Maybe I’m weird though.

What if Scarlet’s plan all along was really to distract us with all this making alliances and causing havoc in order to buy time for her real intentions: Finding a way to wake Mordremoth (6th Dragon) from his slumber in hopes of becoming his champion. From being around the thaumanova reactor she started understanding the implications of chaos magic and dragon magic and now she’s somehow using the “DO NO TOUCH” devices to locate the last dragon in an attempt to wake him up earlier than it’s time.

I always thought Scarlet had found enlightment by all of her studies and wants to restore balance to the world, it all makes sense to her, but to us it looks like she is evil and crazy.

“If you see everything as mere atoms and electrons, what is live?”

i think the dragons who are said to awaken in cycles work as a safe measure against magick abuse,they awaken and cosnume all the magin in tyria in cycles so as to restore the balance,so perhaps the gods granted magic and tyrias denizens abuse it again and so the dragons work to restore balance,by fighting the dragons we are actuall doing a bad job without knowing and Scarlet may have seen this and works to restore the balance aswell and be a little crazy cuz that info might have been too much too

Drakenvold.9761:

i think the dragons who are said to awaken in cycles work as a safe measure against magick abuse,they awaken and cosnume all the magin in tyria in cycles so as to restore the balance,so perhaps the gods granted magic and tyrias denizens abuse it again and so the dragons work to restore balance,by fighting the dragons we are actuall doing a bad job without knowing and Scarlet may have seen this and works to restore the balance aswell and be a little crazy cuz that info might have been too much too

If I understand you correctly, then that logic is somewhat flawed since the Dragons were around way before the gods came to Tyria. At the time they were also consuming all the magic and wreaking havoc around the world. The gods didn’t actually grant magic to Tyria, the magic was there when the bloodstone was made by the seers. What the gods did was someone allow more free use of the magic in Tyria through the bloodstone. This ended with King Doric pleading them to take it back and then they did and broke the bloodstone into 5 pieces, one for each of the schools and a fifth as a keystone using King Doric’s blood.

im sorry if i got messed up,so its still possible that the gods interfered in the magical nature,the tampered with it anyway and might have jump started the dragons cycle