Guild Wars 2

Apart from the famous bromance of Logan and Rythlock and excluding Tybalt with human PC, have you guys seen any other instances of Charr Human friendship?

I mean, there is Leyah and Jordyn and a number of other kids in Lion’s Arch. But what about adults?

I’ve seen NPCs in Lion’s Arch and in the Orders that suggest Charr-Human friendship. It is tough to just become friends when only more recently their war ended. I can see friendships devolving as the game progresses.

There is a pair of vigil members (a Charr and a human) that you can find throughout your story that seem to become friends. They start out being pretty obnoxious to each other with the insults and all but this gets better as time goes on. Last I saw of them, they had found common ground in that neither of them were that excited about fighting Zhaitan in an untested airship.

In the 1st path of Citadel of Flames, there is a human-charr friendship. Apperently, they were enemies, the human working in Ebonhawke to disrupt the charr’s efforts to put up equipment or something. If I remember right, after the treaty was made, they became friends after the human came out with some wine.

Why would I want to be friends with Charr? Charr are animals, they destroyed our land and slaughtered our people. Don’t trust the Charr.

AmBoSS.7129:

Why would I want to be friends with Charr? Charr are animals, they destroyed our land and slaughtered our people. Don’t trust the Charr.

We did that to them first xD

Payback is a kitten.

-This message brought to you by Blood Legion.

Ravenmoon.5318:

AmBoSS.7129:

Why would I want to be friends with Charr? Charr are animals, they destroyed our land and slaughtered our people. Don’t trust the Charr.

We did that to them first xD

It’s not the same. We brought culture to this land, and even if we took the land, we took it from animals.
Then those creatures prayed to their false gods, and only with the power of the titans, they managed to defeat the Ascalonians.

People think that King Adelbern was a monster. That is just not true. He was a hero, and any citizen of Ascalon would have sacrificed their lives and souls to protect their homes.

The Charr besieged us for over 250 years, and now we should all be good friends? Don’t be fooled. Don’t trust them.

Adelbern could have retreated, Ebonhawke still stands, much later, and with how well Ebonhawke held if Adleburn’s forces would have retreated instead of all dying in the foefire, Ebonhawke may have become a turning point in the war with his forces instead of a stalemate siege.

The foefire ghosts helped fight the charr, but the foefire ghosts attack humans as well, so they also prevented any kind of counterpush should they have managed it. If Adleburn did not unleash the foefire, I still don’t think the humans would have ascalon, but they would have more ascalonian territory then just Ebonhawke.

On top of that all charr are willing to give up their lives for their legion, there is no such thing as a civilian. Humans have civilians, while I’m sure there were attempts to evacuate, there are as many civilian ghosts as soldiers, so it clearly was not successful.

Adleburn did not act like a human leader, he acted like a charr one.

Adlebern was a kitten-brained kitten. Any leader that will sacrifice all of his living soldiers AND CIVILIANS in order to cause a stalemate because he refused to back down is a terrible leader. He needed to have that crown off of his head long ago, guess we should have joined the royalists in Pre-Searing afterall… They might have had the right guy for the job, I don’t know.

The royalists were, ironically, trying to raise Barradin because he was closer to the royal line.

With 20/20 hindsight, he probably would have been a better option, but the royalists were basically fighting for nothing because Barradin simply wasn’t interested.

Excelliate.7914:

In the 1st path of Citadel of Flames, there is a human-charr friendship. Apperently, they were enemies, the human working in Ebonhawke to disrupt the charr’s efforts to put up equipment or something. If I remember right, after the treaty was made, they became friends after the human came out with some wine.

O yeah! I forgot about those two!

In Fields of Ruin, humans and Charr appear to be holding joints patrols these days. Plus human members of Durmand Priory are in multiple Ascalon locations and they seem to have/need Charr escorts. There is the Charr commander assigned to the Vigil members near Ascalon Catacombs. They always remind me of a sitcom. I would certainly watch that show! So I think we might see more Charr-Human friendships in the future.

My appoliges for continuing this tangent, but quite frankly the charr taking over Ascalon from the humans isn’t the same as when the humans first took it from the charr.
The Charr have a large region under their control, the humans simply pushed them out of it. When the charr invaded, they were trying to wipe the humans out, and frankly the humans were boxed in pretty well too. And the charr didn’t stop with Ascalon either…
Also, after a thousand years of of living in Ascalon; generations of people being born there, defending it against more then just the charr, farming the land, and eventually dying and being buried in the land itself, the humans had a greater claim on that land then the charr (of the time the Searing took place) did.
And lets not forget what the Charr did to take back ‘their land’. They ruined it. Under the humans it was a verdant beautiful country. Even after the 250 years, its still not completely recovered.

But, at the same time, the charr of today are not the charr that tried to conquer all three human kingdoms. The charr (for the most part) do not see humans as a plauge like the charr of the shaman caste days did.

And yeah, Adleburn showed how poor a leader he was long before the Foefire when he disowned and banished his only son over a triviality. The whole scale murder and condemnation that was the Foefire was simply his last failure.

The Greyhawk.9107:

The Charr have a large region under their control, the humans simply pushed them out of it. When the charr invaded, they were trying to wipe the humans out, and frankly the humans were boxed in pretty well too. And the charr didn’t stop with Ascalon either…
Also, after a thousand years of of living in Ascalon; generations of people being born there, defending it against more then just the charr, farming the land, and eventually dying and being buried in the land itself, the humans had a greater claim on that land then the charr (of the time the Searing took place) did.
And lets not forget what the Charr did to take back ‘their land’. They ruined it. Under the humans it was a verdant beautiful country. Even after the 250 years, its still not completely recovered.

Thank god someone gets it. The humans took Ascalon and turned it into a realm of peace. To take it back, the charr murdered thousands of innocent people who wanted nothing but to live their lives peacefully. The charr never TRIED negotiating for their land, or peace, because they wanted to KILL all the humans. To this day, I still dislike charr, even if they are playable. There’s a reason my weapon sets on my ranger main are a FDS/ Mountaincall Warhorn (stormcaller’s mouthpiece), and a Ebon Vanguard Greatsword. For the glory days of Ascalon.

Also, as Greyhawk said, they got their land back. From the peaceful rolling green and lush forests of the human era, the current ruined Ascalon simply cannot, and will never again compare.

The Greyhawk.9107:

My appoliges for continuing this tangent, but quite frankly the charr taking over Ascalon from the humans isn’t the same as when the humans first took it from the charr.
The Charr have a large region under their control, the humans simply pushed them out of it. When the charr invaded, they were trying to wipe the humans out, and frankly the humans were boxed in pretty well too. And the charr didn’t stop with Ascalon either…
Also, after a thousand years of of living in Ascalon; generations of people being born there, defending it against more then just the charr, farming the land, and eventually dying and being buried in the land itself, the humans had a greater claim on that land then the charr (of the time the Searing took place) did.
And lets not forget what the Charr did to take back ‘their land’. They ruined it. Under the humans it was a verdant beautiful country. Even after the 250 years, its still not completely recovered.

But, at the same time, the charr of today are not the charr that tried to conquer all three human kingdoms. The charr (for the most part) do not see humans as a plauge like the charr of the shaman caste days did.

And yeah, Adleburn showed how poor a leader he was long before the Foefire when he disowned and banished his only son over a triviality. The whole scale murder and condemnation that was the Foefire was simply his last failure.

How dare you push Flame Legion’s mistake onto the Charr.

Um, if I may, does no one see the irony of claiming that the charr don’t deserve Ascalon because of the incredible damage that they caused with the Searing, in light of the Foefire? People of all races will do terrible things when they feel they are pushed to the brink (humans have a history of it – Vizier Khilbron, anyone? – but maybe that’s just because we know a lot more of human history). The charr held a pretty big grudge over being forced out by the humans, and like all such grudges I imagine it grew more bitter with time. Then the shamans got hold of new power, so they used it. That power happened to be magical fire and scorched earth tactics, but it’s not like they had a choice of options; they used it because it was their most powerful option. Think of it like a nuclear bomb.

The charr took Ascalon from the humans. Before that, the humans took Ascalon from the charr. Before that, someone else may well have lived there; we don’t know. We do know that the charr have made some pretty brutal conquests, but we also know that humans spread widely across Tyria (and the other continents), claiming basically everywhere and then defending against others, like the centaurs, who also have a right to a homeland. The whole thing’s a twisted mess of blame and grudges, like some real world places I could mention.

Anyway, the point is that the Elder Dragons will take everything from everyone. So can’t we all just get alone?

Pretty much that’s the point we are at. We just need to get the Centaurs, dredge, Ogres, and skritt to be okay with their current lands and we’ll be set. I don’t see any hope for the Harpies or Krait.

Curuniel.4830:

Um, if I may, does no one see the irony of claiming that the charr don’t deserve Ascalon because of the incredible damage that they caused with the Searing, in light of the Foefire?

Well, part of what my previous statement about the Searing was attempting to acomplish was point out the environmental damages that the shaman charr caused, appealing to the sense of indignation folks have about that kind of thing now a days. Plus I find it foolish to intentionally ruin something you are trying to reclaim.

Also, the Foefire and the Sinking of Orr are very different from from the Searing in that Aldeburn and the Vizer are solely responable for their respective mass destrution. The Searing was planned and performed as a group.

All that said, I don’t want all of you to missunderstand my stance on things. In a way I don’t yet understand I do like the charr. I just get frustrated and…a little weirded out at things from ingame as well as from fans that (subtly or blatantly) seem to say ‘The humans got what they deserve" or “Their losses were meaningless”.
I’m an old gw1 player, 5 years of off and on (mostly on) playing. I still strongly empathise with the Ascalonians, a people many generations removed from the those that took the lands from the charr (which is why I do get angry at the charr opening’s statement about “them paying for their crime with their lives”. What, the crime of being born there?).
But in all honesty, the farther the story goes from a human/charr conflict the overall happier I’ll be. The charr are a facinating people, flawed, but none the less a lot of fun.
Plus I really loved Tybalt…..’scuse me…..gotta cry now.

Tybalt T_T (Though I always got the vibe he might be a Lion’s Arch charr, not one from the legions strictly speaking!)

Holding a bit of resentment for the charr because of GW1 is totally understandable! And really, they aren’t the easiest people to get along with, let’s be honest. Still, I think just as in the real world, these conflicts only get more and more painful if children keep trying to avenge their ancestors and keep their grudges alive. Neither the charr nor the humans who are alive now lived through the Searing, and Tyria is a very different place. So I agree, it’s time to move on!

As for sentiments (fan and NPC), I agree that belittling the Searing is insensitive (I role-played with friends in GW1 and have witnessed some pretty heartfelt stories about it!), but I also think it’s kind of realistic in-game. Not that many contemporary Krytans have connections to Ascalon, and it has been 250 years. It’s ancient history now (much further into the past than, say, the American Civil War is for us), and I imagine people mostly just don’t talk or think about it anymore. Besides, even back then the Krytans were pretty unconcerned as long as the charr didn’t attack them, heh.

The Searing itself was probably bungled from what we learn about it in Orr. The magic had the ability to be far more focused and directed. Of course, this is the Flame Legion we are talking about so they may have just done it on purpose.

Although the Charr feel very strongly about their claim to Ascalon and often hold a hatred of humans that isnt really shared with any other race, many Charr didnt approve of many of the methods used during the invasion 250 years ago. There are charr around the Ascalon areas which make comments on it.

Most of the worst activities committed by the Charr were the result of the Flame Legion. Most other Charr can be brutal but are pragmatic about it rather than malicious the way the Flame Legion is.

You also have to remember that Ascalon was really just in the way. The Titans were pushing the Charr towards Orr. The Charr as a race really wasnt in control of its own destiny at the time and the result of that is their strong hatred of gods.

Lutinz.6915:

The Searing itself was probably bungled from what we learn about it in Orr. The magic had the ability to be far more focused and directed. Of course, this is the Flame Legion we are talking about so they may have just done it on purpose.

Although the Charr feel very strongly about their claim to Ascalon and often hold a hatred of humans that isnt really shared with any other race, many Charr didnt approve of many of the methods used during the invasion 250 years ago. There are charr around the Ascalon areas which make comments on it.

Most of the worst activities committed by the Charr were the result of the Flame Legion. Most other Charr can be brutal but are pragmatic about it rather than malicious the way the Flame Legion is.

You also have to remember that Ascalon was really just in the way. The Titans were pushing the Charr towards Orr. The Charr as a race really wasnt in control of its own destiny at the time and the result of that is their strong hatred of gods.

I don’t think you can skirt the blame to the Flame Legion here. GW2 likes to paint them a picture that separates them from mainline Charr, but that’s not how they were presented in the original. The GW1 Charr wanted to dominate and kill every race, not just the humans. The humans were just the closest and most dominant race around then. Charr battled the Forgotten for ages before the humans came. And even in EotN they were pillaging and killing the Norn on their border.

There’s little distinction in the first game about whether or not a charr mob was Flame Legion or not based on their attitude. And a lot of the atrocities were committed by regular Charr soldiers not just Shaman’s. The Titan’s weren’t controlling the Charr’s actions, they were using the Charr to spread destruction in general. The Charr were using the Titan’s to kill humans in particular. There’s a difference.

The OP has a point in human/charr society when he talks about intentions. The humans never wanted to eradicate the Charr, they were brought to Ascalon by the gods to live and had to deal with the situation. Once they became settled, they just wanted to live normal lives, letting the Charr do what they want in the North. The Charr, however, wanted to eradicate every human soul they could reach. Why? Because that’s what they do, they kill anything that they can reach.

I don’t think that in GW1 I will ever forgive the Charr. I played through the story of Gwen as they used her as entertainment to see if she could survive against a siege destroyer and hunted her down when she succeeded. I saw the complete annihilation of Ashford (my favorite pre-searing city ever!) and the people inside of the sanitarium unable to cope with the world that had been destroyed around them. I saw good men and women fall away from Ascalon and eventually turn to banditry. And in the end I destroyed the charr armies and their gods in return! My character will live with hatred for the charr in his heart forever in GW1! But times have changed. My character is a sylvari, and he has only been in this world for a few months. He doesn’t know anything about these age old hatreds, and he has no reason to side with one faction over the other when it comes to these wars. In the end the only thing that matters is that we get over our differences so that we can kill these Elder Dragons!

In a GW2 book there is Dougen Keene (sp?) and Ember Doomforge. I wouldn’t say they were buddies but they had a grudging respect for each other.

Lutinz.6915:

The Searing itself was probably bungled from what we learn about it in Orr. The magic had the ability to be far more focused and directed. Of course, this is the Flame Legion we are talking about so they may have just done it on purpose.

I actually wonder sometimes if the Flame Legion actually knew what the Searing would do before they performed the ritual. I sometimes get the impression that all the shamans knew was that this new magic would destroy the Wall, but not the specifics of how it would accomplish this. Thus, the shamans might have been surprised as the humans when the Searing Crystals fell from the sky and scorched the landscape. (Of course, given the Flame Legion’s love for fire and their habit of burning everything in their wake, they probably didn’t object too much to the results.)

On a semi-related note, given the similarity of the Searing crystals to Kralkatorrik and his Branded, anyone else think that the Cauldron of Cataclysm was an artifact of Kralkatorrik’s?

Obsidian.1328:

GW2 likes to paint them a picture that separates them from mainline Charr, but that’s not how they were presented in the original. The GW1 Charr wanted to dominate and kill every race, not just the humans.

To be fair, in GW1 we know almost nothing of charr discourses around this stuff – the above is how the humans see it, but they would, wouldn’t they? I won’t deny the charr had a racial superiority thing going (one has to wonder if they had that before they were driven out, or if it was a defensive thing afterwards) but I don’t know if they were driven to rule the world necessarily.

Of course from our perspective it’s pretty clear the charr went from simple bad guys to a race with a more complex and sympathetic history because it suited the writers, but in lore as it stands the Flame Legion shamans are a lot like Hitler. They offered a chance at power to a people who had been beaten and shamed, and the people took that chance to return to grandeur – but atrocities ended up being committed because of it, probably beyond what most people ever intended (yes, Godwin’s Law, I plead guilty).

And from my roleplay perspective, my female charr take no responsibility for what the shaman kittens did :P

On a semi-related note, given the similarity of the Searing crystals to Kralkatorrik and his Branded, anyone else think that the Cauldron of Cataclysm was an artifact of Kralkatorrik’s?

It may be coincidental (what fantasy writer doesn’t love crystals?), but it would also fit well with the vibe I’m getting that our Kralkatorrik arc will also deal with the Ebonhawke situation (given where the gate to the Crystal Desert is).

The Charr of GW2 are really a lot more civil than the Charr of GW1 though. Whereas in GW1 they were brought up solely for war, in GW2 they involve themselves with commerce and technology. They can’t be responsible for what their ancestors did.

Lutinz.6915:

The Searing itself was probably bungled from what we learn about it in Orr. The magic had the ability to be far more focused and directed. Of course, this is the Flame Legion we are talking about so they may have just done it on purpose.

Although the Charr feel very strongly about their claim to Ascalon and often hold a hatred of humans that isnt really shared with any other race, many Charr didnt approve of many of the methods used during the invasion 250 years ago. There are charr around the Ascalon areas which make comments on it.

Most of the worst activities committed by the Charr were the result of the Flame Legion. Most other Charr can be brutal but are pragmatic about it rather than malicious the way the Flame Legion is.

Some of this, however, seems to me to be a distinction between modern charr and the charr of GW1 than one between the Flame Legion and the other legions. Look at Pyre Fierceshot for instance – he’s the Flame Legion’s greatest enemy among the charr of his time, but he approves of the Searing – he’s proud of his father’s role in it, and boasts about how the environmental devastation of the Searing ensures that Ascalon will never be rebuilt.

This will be a controversial point, but I don’t think the present-era Charr or humans care all that much about the searing and the like compared to more contemporary events such as the ongoing siege of Ebonhawke. That’s not to say they don’t care at all, but it’s almost ancient history.

When you get down to it, 250 years means that the events are six or seven generations removed from most anyone still alive. Most people would struggle (or fail) to recall the names of their great-great grandparents, let alone have a burning desire to right some injustice visited upon relations two or three generations even further back. The remaining Ascalonians hold most of their animosity due to the fact their war never really ended. The charr are simply an enemy to them, just like humans are to charr for the most part due to long-standing and recent conflict. I do have to note there, though, that it doesn’t seem like they view each other as the enemy.

The majority of the Charr’s actual military efforts are directed elsewhere and have been since the events of GW1. Even though the siege of Ebonhawke never really ended, the Charr fought and are still fighting a civil war too, and now ghosts. I hate to discount the romanticism since the Fields of Ruin and similar areas have a great atmosphere of political tension, but Ebonhawke is the only place really defined by the conflict.

Kryta and Lion’s Arch represent a much bigger segment of the human population, and as far as we’re told, have much less reason to resent Charr. People who still identify as Ascalonians are just a rather loud minority. Mixed forces of Lionguard seem to get along just fine. But I think you can argue that internal tensions get glossed over in organizations that recruit from all races, and Lion’s Arch is pretty cosmopolitan.

For examples highlighting a lack of animosity, there’s a Priory team on a dig site I believe in the Fields of Ruin made up of both charr and humans. Their dialogue indicates they’re touchy about certain topics with each other, but ultimately making efforts to reign in their respective biases. Or you can try walking into the throne room in Divinity’s Reach as a charr and talking to the queen. Apparently they just let people walk in there.

So after all that my conclusion is that friendships between charr and humans don’t seem to be all that uncommon, there are lots of mixed groups of NPCs that work well together but don’t get much in the way of dialogue to characterize their relationships one way or another.

I don’t think ‘anyone can just walk in’ is canon – if you wait outside long enough, there’s a human NPC who tries to get an audience and is denied. It’s probably that for most of the range of levels a PC has probably made enough of a name for themselves to be recognised, and ArenaNet didn’t feel it was worth making a special exception for lower-level characters.

Torrad.1075:

Or you can try walking into the throne room in Divinity’s Reach as a charr and talking to the queen. Apparently they just let people walk in there.

They let my Charr Warrior walk right up to Queen Jennah in full armor and with his weapons. The Shining Blade must be REALLY incompetent (or very, VERY confident). XD

Countess Anise and Jennah are two of the most powerful mesmers in the setting, if not THE most powerful mesmers. If you went in planning to shank the queen, you probably wouldn’t have made it through the doors

Yeah, Jennah does a good job of letting people forget her powers, in my opinion. She’s more calculating then she seems.

I agree that Ebonhawke is really the only place still holding on to a powerful animosity for the charr. I don’t blame them – I mean we, as players, hold the grudge because it wasn’t that long ago for us. No intervening generations, just a couple of years waiting for GW2 lol. In Ebonhawke their whole identity is built around being the last bastion against the charr. They’ve been consciously keeping that hatred alive through the generations, and the charr siege makes that fairly easy to sell.

By contrast, most humans in Krytan would consider themselves Krytans, just as, say, a fifth generation Chinese American would almost certainly identify chiefly as an American. Queen Jennah wants this truce because it makes sense, and because she doesn’t have any reason to hate the charr that much. They aren’t attacking her kingdom in anything but the technical sense that Ebonhawke is part of her kingdom. It’s not surprising that there’s bad feeling toward Jennah in Ebonhawke – she’s asking them to “get over it already”, basically, because the rest of humanity has.

draxynnic.3719:

Countess Anise and Jennah are two of the most powerful mesmers in the setting, if not THE most powerful mesmers.

And yet Anise crumpled like wet paper underneath the hammer of Eitel the Unlovable, leaving me to deal with him and Minister Zamon all by myself. XD Then again, I’m willing to handwave this considering that the abilities of Destiny’s Edge don’t always match up with their reputation in-game.

Can you name a mesmer NPC that’s even nearly as prominent as those two, though?

From my observations, mechanically speaking Destiny’s Edge and other important NPCs such as Anise are quite tough – tougher than the PC, I would say. The problem is that they tend to eat dirt a lot because GW2 AI is still fairly lacking in self-preservation instincts – and ArenaNet wants to give you opportunities to fight alongside them without it being a case of letting them fight because they’re so much better than you (strictly speaking, lorewise you end up a greater hero than any of them. It’ll be interesting to see how they resolve that if they ever do a GW3).

It seems the kids and cubs have no problem friending each other. However the adults had to work very hard to not kill each other.

When all the dragons have been defeated, war might begin anew. Who knows?

Curuniel.4830:

Obsidian.1328:

GW2 likes to paint them a picture that separates them from mainline Charr, but that’s not how they were presented in the original. The GW1 Charr wanted to dominate and kill every race, not just the humans.

To be fair, in GW1 we know almost nothing of charr discourses around this stuff – the above is how the humans see it, but they would, wouldn’t they? I won’t deny the charr had a racial superiority thing going (one has to wonder if they had that before they were driven out, or if it was a defensive thing afterwards) but I don’t know if they were driven to rule the world necessarily.

Of course from our perspective it’s pretty clear the charr went from simple bad guys to a race with a more complex and sympathetic history because it suited the writers, but in lore as it stands the Flame Legion shamans are a lot like Hitler. They offered a chance at power to a people who had been beaten and shamed, and the people took that chance to return to grandeur – but atrocities ended up being committed because of it, probably beyond what most people ever intended (yes, Godwin’s Law, I plead guilty).

And from my roleplay perspective, my female charr take no responsibility for what the shaman kittens did :P

On a semi-related note, given the similarity of the Searing crystals to Kralkatorrik and his Branded, anyone else think that the Cauldron of Cataclysm was an artifact of Kralkatorrik’s?

It may be coincidental (what fantasy writer doesn’t love crystals?), but it would also fit well with the vibe I’m getting that our Kralkatorrik arc will also deal with the Ebonhawke situation (given where the gate to the Crystal Desert is).

I think the Separatists are going the path of Nazis. They just need more speeches on Charr hate, Ascalonian superiority and extermination of all races that aren’t pure Ascalonian. They are already fighting against everyone so it isn’t that far off.

From what I have seen, there are no indications that the people of Ebonhawke prefer peace over war. Queen Jennah wants peace. Logan probably wants peace. But that says nothing about the opinion of the general public.

This is clear when there are spies in the ranks of Vanguard. These people are not spies who joined later. They are existing Vanguards who are Separatist sympathisers. Heck, even a few of those Ebonhawke representatives are Separatist sympathisers if you read into the context of things.

CHIPS.6018:

I think the Separatists are going the path of Nazis. They just need more speeches on Charr hate, Ascalonian superiority and extermination of all races that aren’t pure Ascalonian. They are already fighting against everyone so it isn’t that far off.

Yeah, in the hate-speech area the Separatists may be more our typical image of Nazis, but the fact of the matter is that Hitler didn’t originally get elected by a nation of fanatical racial purists. He got elected by a people who believed, at least for a time, that he could help the country get back on its feet an be a world power again. He sold the idea well – where it ended up is hardly what he advertised.

There may not be any evidence as to what the common people of Kryta think, but there’s not much sign that there care too much about war with the charr. It’s not part of their life. In Ebonhawke it’s a totally different story, and I agree that the people there are not keen on a truce with the charr. The whole city’s stories are themed around that resentment – especially the resentment of a queen who doesn’t have to live with the realities of Ebonhawke making the decision on behalf of the people who do.

Torrad.1075:

When you get down to it, 250 years means that the events are six or seven generations removed from most anyone still alive. Most people would struggle (or fail) to recall the names of their great-great grandparents, let alone have a burning desire to right some injustice visited upon relations two or three generations even further back. The remaining Ascalonians hold most of their animosity due to the fact their war never really ended. The charr are simply an enemy to them, just like humans are to charr for the most part due to long-standing and recent conflict. I do have to note there, though, that it doesn’t seem like they view each other as the enemy.

This is the crucial point. let’s look at an example from our own past: the war of Austrian Succession. Now, that happened about 250 years ago. That had a death toll of approximately one million. While we can trace the cause of modern troubles to the post-treaty dualism between Austria and Prussia (which would eventually result in the German unification of Bismarck’s time, and would then feed the Imperialist ambitions of WW1, and you see where I’m going with this tangent), we don’t feel particularly affected by that conflict. You could even argue the same point regarding WW1, which was merely a century ago. We’re living in an age that was shaped by the modern sentiments born from that conflict, but it doesn’t strike a particularly dissonant chord in our memories.

Now 250 years is a long time, and newer traumas have a nice way of painting over old ones. I think most Krytans view the centaurs as a greater threat than the Charr, given that the day-to-day horrors of war they would experience are related to the former species. Same thing goes for the Dragons. And save for Ebonhawke – which is a whole other story – the Charr have no real way to impress their physical presence on the minds of humans living in Kryta; they have a whole mountain range between them.

So, while there is a very real amount of history, I think it’s fair to say that a Charr-Human friendship is helped by the fact that so many other terrible conflicts that help to smooth things over.

Curuniel.4830:

CHIPS.6018:

I think the Separatists are going the path of Nazis. They just need more speeches on Charr hate, Ascalonian superiority and extermination of all races that aren’t pure Ascalonian. They are already fighting against everyone so it isn’t that far off.

Yeah, in the hate-speech area the Separatists may be more our typical image of Nazis, but the fact of the matter is that Hitler didn’t originally get elected by a nation of fanatical racial purists. He got elected by a people who believed, at least for a time, that he could help the country get back on its feet an be a world power again. He sold the idea well – where it ended up is hardly what he advertised.

There may not be any evidence as to what the common people of Kryta think, but there’s not much sign that there care too much about war with the charr. It’s not part of their life. In Ebonhawke it’s a totally different story, and I agree that the people there are not keen on a truce with the charr. The whole city’s stories are themed around that resentment – especially the resentment of a queen who doesn’t have to live with the realities of Ebonhawke making the decision on behalf of the people who do.

Well, he did get Germany back on its feet and make it a world power again. He then took it into a war that ended in it getting smashed again, except without the excuse of coming to aid an ally, and with the addition of crimes against humanity to boot.

On Ebonhawke… if you go around and talk to the population, the impression I get is that while feelings are mixed and there is clearly some pro-Separatist sentiment, the majority can actually see the advantages of peace. It probably helps that the charr seem to be being quite generous in the peace process – they seem to be ceding the entire Plains of Ruin to Ebonhawke, and possibly beyond that.

You have the hotheads, but I think the majority of Ebonhawkers realise that without serious outside help that they just weren’t going to get in the current climate they weren’t going to win, and that it’s better to get peace now while the charr are receptive to the idea. They’re on their guard, but cautiously optimistic to the idea of peace.

I would say a more apt historical comparison for the Charr would be the Japanese. The Charr were defeated by a militarily superior force (like when Com. Perry of the USA used his cannons to force Japan open for trade); which caused them to realize they needed to rapidly improve their technology to be competetive; they collectively drove themselves toward that goal at a blistering pace (in magic and then later in industrialization); but that new technological level required resources at a level the Charr did not have, which encouraged them to aggressively expand, defeat old enemies, and reclaim territories they saw as under their sphere of influence.

That comparison actually hold up pretty well azureai… so Ashford is Manchuria or something?

Sadly, it sounds more like Nanking to me.

Come to think of it, how quirky the modern Charr are also reminds me of the Japanese…

Ascalon was Charr land until the humans pushed them out, they started the war. Everything that happened after then is the humans fault.
To say the humans are in the right there is like saying the americans were in the right against the native americans or in an example more relevant to me, the europeans vs the maori of nz.
Yeah its happened now and in our case there isn’t really any going back but I’m guessing thats because the losing sides in real life didnt have massive armies to fight back with after the fact.

Hmm…the Nazi thing I don’t see. If anything I see an Celt/Roman – Human/Charr dynamic, but that’s just me.

Keep in mind the writer’s have bent the situation so that any Separatist nuances are seen as irrational or uncivilized. When you’re in Ebonhawke and keep getting bugged by “sympathizer” npc’s, the writers obviously want you to choose the answers that lead toward peace. After awhile I was like, “Why is ANet trying to make moral decisions for me that I don’t agree with?”

It’s not “wrong” for me to think the Charr deserve to die by Ascalonian/Ebonhawke steel, and I take offense that they would make my viewpoint into some kind of in-game “lesson” that rewards you with karma and experience. If the people of Ebonhawke choose to honor their ancestors and fight the good fight, so be it.

Do I live excessively in the past? Probably…but it is what it is.

I played GW1 when it first came out and all the way including EotN. At first, I hated the Charr. Pre-searing Ascalon was a gorgeous place! Then the searing took place. You watched as thousands of people were cut down. My anger grew, until some of the last missions involving Ascalon. Prince Rurik made me feel a bit different. Im sure he hated them as well, however, during the last Ascalon Mission…Things changed for me. I saw King Adelbern not as a beacon of strength, but a stubborn lord determined to let his people die. Rurik lead hundreds of thousands of refugees over the shiverpeaks. He did it for one reason: He knew Ascalon would not last. We could make the argument, that if he stayed, The whole foefire might have been avoided. . It isnt fair to label Charr as murderous genocide race. We can all agree the Flame Legion are nutjobs living in the past, as well as worshipping terrible things. Unfortunately we do not know much about the Charr dating before Ascalon. All we do know is the following: The Charr held the land we call Ascalon. The humans pushed the Charr out of Ascalon ( whether the Gods told them to or not is fuzzy at best). The Charr retook Ascalon via the Searing.
Fast forward to EotN. People talk of how Charr slaughtered Norn. Yep they did, but if you look into deeper history you find some facts. The Charr knew about the norn before humans did. As a matter of fact, they respected one another. Any norn crossing into Charr Territory would be cut down and vice versa. The norn even let the Charr Legions use the mountain paths to assault Kryta and Orr. One does not simply walk over Dwarf land. If you recall from GW1, the Stone Summit were royalpains. While the Deldrimor dwarfs were kind, I doubt they would let the Charr cross, seeing as the Charr from searing times were definately more ferocious. All of the Charr Legions have subdivisions, boiling down to the basic warband. I have feeling it wasnt a fullscale Charr Legion roaming around in EoTN. It was most likely a few regiments exploring possible expansion land since the Crystal Desert was inhospitable. EoTN changed how I looked at Charr forever. Pyre Fierceshot does indeed hate the Flame Legion. He does approve of the searing. Why? Simply the fact that he believes the land of Ascalon was rightfully Charr. He was taught from birth, it was their land. If you were taught at birth that so and so land is yours. yet someone grabbed it from you….Wouldnt you have some hatred toward them? We could even argue that all the Human Kingdoms during the Flame Legion reign did terrible things. Ascalon has the Foefire, Orr has the Cataclysm, and Kryta has the White Mantle/ Mursaat. Let us not forget how many innocent people the White Mantle murdered for their Unseen Gods. Yes the Mursaat were keeping back the Titans, but that does not justify slaughtered people for soul energy. Regardless of the matters above, the Charr have evolved over time just like the humans. The Charr may have caused the Searing, but it doesnt mean the average foot soldier approved. Many Charr did not like the Flame Legion, but since they wielded so much power via magic / the Titans…The average Charr would most likely suck it up and deal with their orders. It makes sense that they would follow their orders to the letter, even if they disliked them. The Charr present in GW2, do not hate the humans totally. Im sure a few dislike them, or feel like they dont deserve the land near Ebonhawke. However, most Charr do not have disdain for humans. If you hang around the Black Citadel gate facing Diessa Plateau, you will find a conversation between two humans and a Charr Adamant Guard. The humans thank the charr for rescuing them from a bad situation, despite the fact they are humans in Charr land. The guard replies saying it has nothing to do with the treaty, and that everyone follows the same rules in our city regardless of race. That goes to show how some Charr dont care if humans walk into their land via travels or adventures. There is even some humans around the Meatoberfest area sampling the food and beer (not to mention the Norn who always enjoy booze and food!).
In conclusion, the Charr-Human relationship can be described at subjective. Everyone being, human or charr, have their own opinions of who is right. Some do not care, others care fanatically. The treaty is only a symbolic thing. The Charr present do not seem to have a desire to bother with Kryta. They have the Brand / Elder Dragon and Flame Legion to deal with. For the most part, the Flame Legion is slowly being crushed( Cathedral of Flames solidifying that).

I would have to agree with most of what you say. I think one of the things I enjoyed most about the Fields of Ruin was going to the dignitaries tent and listening to some charr actually liking the idea of fighting with the humans (as opposed to against) because of the human’s endurance. They say if they fight half as well as they have these past 200 so years that they will make strong allies. The world is changing, and England and the US are no longer enemies, so why should humans and charr be.

Narcemus.1348:

The world is changing, and England and the US are no longer enemies, so why should humans and charr be.

Very true…but the charr aren’t human. I just don’t see the charr, or any of the other playable races for that matter, as equals to humans. Most of my characters are human; I have one norn on the shortest height setting(lets face it, they just look like tall humans), and one asuran I treat like a pet. Does that make me racist or something? I’m not sure…maybe species-ist would be more apt. It’s wierd, I’ve played fantasy races before and not really thought anything of it.

I think I’m too stuck in GW1’s human-centric gameplay. If it were up to me, I wouldn’t have introduced all 4 of the other races(charr, norn, asura, sylvari) and just kept humans. To me, that was both one of the defining characteristics of GW1, and a brilliant design mechanic. You had humans that represented Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. Additionally, the next expansion was supposed to be Meso-American in theme. It was easy for any player around the world to let themselves identify with their characters. It’s the first game I’ve played that I had that sense of ownership with, and is probably the reason I think humans are misrepresented in this game.

I suppose ANet brought in the other races to appeal to a wider audience and all that, but I thought they had something really unique with a human-dominated fantasy setting that mirrors real-world cultures. Are there other fantasy games out there that do that? I blame the great writing and story-line of GW1 for all of this haha.

At any rate, sorry for the tangent here. Most of you have very valid arguments that I simply can’t counter within reason, so at this point I’m just ranting. Isn’t that what the forums are for?

Goatjugsoup.8637:

Ascalon was Charr land until the humans pushed them out, they started the war. Everything that happened after then is the humans fault.
To say the humans are in the right there is like saying the americans were in the right against the native americans or in an example more relevant to me, the europeans vs the maori of nz.
Yeah its happened now and in our case there isn’t really any going back but I’m guessing thats because the losing sides in real life didnt have massive armies to fight back with after the fact.

There’s a certain element of ‘let bygones be bygones’ here. I personally have a suspicion there’s more to the original invasion of Ascalon than we currently know (the charr under the Khan-Ur were aggressively expansionist – the invasion of Ascalon could have been more like the ancient Chinese counterattacking Mongolia to reach a good spot to build the Great Wall, rather than colonisation at the expense of a people that weren’t doing anything to harm anyone else), but whatever the causes, the humans pre-searing were not the ones who took the land from the Charr in the first place. Would it really be fair or justified if the Maoiris or Native Americans were to nuke every city in New Zealand or the US in order to take back their land, or for the Greeks to to the same to Turkey to retake Anatolia? To put things in perspective, from the human conquest of Ascalon to the Searing is roughly double the timeframe as between the destruction of the Byzantine Empire at the hands of the Turkish and today, and yet while there is certainly some enmity across the Greek/Turkish border, I don’t think anyone would think Greece nuking Turkey out of existence in return for something that happened six centuries ago would be justified. And that’s basically what the Searing was – the Charr delivering the fantasy equivalent of a nuke to a nation full of mostly innocent people and a definitely innocent ecosystem over slights that happened over a millenia ago.

The twist in the tail is that, apart from the timeframe, the same thing can be said about the charr living in Ascalon today. They weren’t responsible for the actions of their ancestors, and Ascalon is their home. Is fair to murder or dislocate them over an event that is ancient history? Kitten no.

draxynnic.3719:

Would it really be fair or justified if the Maoiris or Native Americans were to nuke every city in New Zealand or the US in order to take back their land, or for the Greeks to to the same to Turkey to retake Anatolia?

Ok, I’ve been avoiding this because it could lead to a whole discussion I don’t really want to have on these forums (so please try and leave it be!) but I’m just going to say it: I think the most apt comparison for the charr/human situation currently is actually Israel/Palestine. Both peoples have really good reasons to claim that land, both peoples have a long history of association with it, and both peoples are passing down a strong hatred for the other because it’s an emotional issue. However, both peoples are so far removed from the origin of the conflict that it’s now self-perpetuating and every act of revenge spawns a call for revenge, in a cycle which is extremely difficult to resolve equitably for both sides.

If contemporary charr and contemporary humans can heal over the rift their ancestors caused (and aggravated) and agree that both sides made mistakes but we can do better now, Tyria will be a better and more harmonious place. The question is, how to do that without de-valuing the sacrifices of those ancestors?

This stuff is hard :/ haha.

@drax

I’ll play devils advocate on this one, and use a current situation.

Q. Given the presence of Palestinians and other non-Christians living in Judea for thousands of years, was the creation of the Israeli state morally (un)justified?

Edit: lol, Curuniel beat me to it. :P