Guild Wars 2

How does Legion logistical support work? Is each Legion independently responsible for its own supplies? Or is some government official responsible for ensuring each Legion has what it needs?

Each Legion is effectively it’s own nation, and thus is responsible for logistics within its territory. The playable areas of charr territory are Iron Legion territory – Blood and Ash are there as part of a cooperation agreement between the legions, but while they’re there they’re probably supported by the Iron Legion’s logistics chain.

Think of the charr as a confederation of three different nations. There is no one ruler of all the charr but they work towards mutual benefit.

exelion.2369:

Think of the charr as a confederation of three different nations. There is no one ruler of all the charr but they work towards mutual benefit.

I was under the impression they had a stratocratic system with the heads of the three Legions working together sort of like the Joint Chief of Staff, with Smodur the Unflinching taking (or being given) the dominant position.

The question was asked in an interview, and it turns out that no, there is no such system. Smodur is dominant because Ascalon is his territory – if you were in Blood or Ash territory, it’d be Bangar or Malice in charge.

It is probably very similar to modern day armies’ logistics. There is a quartermaster or logistics personnel usually on most levels with varying degrees of responsibility. Using this as an example:

The charr would have a Quaestor at the tribune level responsible for high (strategic) level logistics. Their concerns are with large quantities of food, weapons, materials, where to aquire them and the most effective means to distribute them to the next unit level, the centurions. Tribune level logistics would also be responsible for all the policy and administration associated with strategic level logistics.

The Quaestors at the centurion level would focus on obtaining and distributing supplies to multiple warbands in the area of operation.

On the legionnaire level (the warband), I do not think they would have a quaestor since they are typically a direct combat unit. Quaestor are usually older, more expereinced charr who skills have lessoned on the field due to injury or age. Nevertheless, a warband would have a soldier responsible for supplies and they would interact with the centurion level quaestor.

Smodur is being very clever in my opinion. I’ve discussed his ‘primus inter pares’ tactics on my blog before, a long time ago. Still, draxynnic is right I think, the emphasis we get on Smodur is largely because we’re in Iron territory. As I understand it, the Black Citadel is not so much the charr capital as the Iron Legion capital.

In terms of supply and resources, I would imagine that each legion probably operates largely its own things, but then again Blood and Ash charr in Iron territory still need to be fed and supplied, so maybe it’s done on a regional basis? I don’t know if we have any hard evidence.

So the charr have three sovereign territories? I know there’s a Blood Legion Homeland on the map, but I always assumed that was the place from whence they came, not their current base of political/military power. That’s interesting, and brings to mind three thoughts.

First, if Ascalon was once Flame Legion territory and was wrested away by Iron Legion, where (if anywhere) was Iron’s original territory?

Second, the charr have three “nations” and the humans – who once had four – now have one. Depending on how things shake out in Elona (Palawa Joko’s desire to rule…is he successful; and if so, does he care if his subjects are living or undead?) and whether or not the ArenaNet guild can overcome the Nexxon world boss and unlock Cantha for the rest of us, humans might still have three. But for now they appear to have less collective power than their one-time enemy.

Third, I already consider the charr to be the power of the future. They have industry; they have technology; they have a well-oiled military machine around which their entire culture is based; and they’re taught from a very early age to fight with and for one another. If Ascalon alone is the equal of each of the other nations (I think they’d crush the norn and sylvari if they so desired), then no single nation could hope to match their combined might should they ever desire total domination.

First: Ascalon is the Iron Legion’s territory. The rebellion against the Flame Legion overthrew them from being the top dog legion, and it seems that the Flame Legion has lost an official territorial claim and now has basis through charr territory instead.

Second: Kryta and Ebonhawke alone are indeed clearly weaker than the combined Charr nations.

Third: I’d ask you to clarify whether you mean the Iron Legion or human Ascalon there…

There’s been a lot of discussion on the topic of who would win in a match-up, but I think if there was a charr-versus-everyone-else battle royale, the charr would probably lose. In terms of straight-up military power, the charr probably are roughly equal to the rest of Tyria combined, but the rest of Tyria does have geography on its side and a wider set of knowledge and skills.

draxynnic.3719:

Third: I’d ask you to clarify whether you mean the Iron Legion or human Ascalon there…

Iron Legion.

That’s what I thought. I was initially thinking the nation of Ascalon (I’m pretty sure the Iron Legion don’t regard themselves as Ascalonians…) which is clearly currently the smallest and weakest of the nations… albeit one that’s been managing to hold the charr at bay behind a dirty great wall.

(Although I suspected that they wouldn’t have lasted another century.)

darkace.8925:

I know there’s a Blood Legion Homeland on the map, but I always assumed that was the place from whence they came, not their current base of political/military power.

All charr came from the east – off of the map. Blood Legion Homelands was just land they conquered before they first conquered Ascalon (before humans kicked them out and named the place Ascalon).

darkace.8925:

First, if Ascalon was once Flame Legion territory and was wrested away by Iron Legion, where (if anywhere) was Iron’s original territory?

I think Ascalon was original Iron Legion territory. Remember that when the four Legions were made, the charr already had Ascalon in their control – before the humans kicked them out in 100 BE.

darkace.8925:

Second, the charr have three “nations” and the humans – who once had four – now have one.

Arguably, it’d be seven nations. Kryta, Ascalon, Orr, Elona, Cantha, Kurzicks, and Luxons. The last two are vassals of Cantha though; and in GW2’s modern times, it’s down to Kryta, Elona (arguably), and Cantha (Kurzicks and Luxons being fully assimilated from vassals to being part of it fully – I guess that’d mean that Cantha is no longer an empire, since empires by definition is a conjoining of multiple nations under a single leadership, iirc).

darkace.8925:

Third, I already consider the charr to be the power of the future. They have industry; they have technology; they have a well-oiled military machine around which their entire culture is based; and they’re taught from a very early age to fight with and for one another. If Ascalon alone is the equal of each of the other nations (I think they’d crush the norn and sylvari if they so desired), then no single nation could hope to match their combined might should they ever desire total domination.

Magic and magitech can prove very detrimental to technology, especially since it’s been around longer and more refined.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Arguably, it’d be seven nations. Kryta, Ascalon, Orr, Elona, Cantha, Kurzicks, and Luxons. The last two are vassals of Cantha though; and in GW2’s modern times, it’s down to Kryta, Elona (arguably), and Cantha (Kurzicks and Luxons being fully assimilated from vassals to being part of it fully – I guess that’d mean that Cantha is no longer an empire, since empires by definition is a conjoining of multiple nations under a single leadership, iirc).

iirc, Elona is three nations: Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi.

Though whether Elona even counts as a human nation is debatable, with that obnoxious mummy ruling the roost.

Elona is a strange case in that it saw itself as a single nation with three independent provinces and no central government. For all practical purposes though, prior to Palawa taking over it was effectively three nations.

I’d call it one nation. Otherwise it’s like calling the mongols hundreds of different nations before Ghengis Khan united the tribes. Especially if they saw themselves as a single nation. Like the U.S.A. before civil war established the federal government as lead over the state government. Each state wasn’t considered it’s own nation. they were independent states in one nation of the United States. In fact, through out history, there have been a few nations without centralized government that are counted as one nation.

though, a special note would have been required to emphasize that it did comprise of three territories rather than one city state nation. which would have made it a very powerful nation. But, as Hypercutter said, it is ruled by a mummy so “human nation” is iffy because GW wiki desacribes it as an undead kingdom. with the state of cantha unknown, GW2 wiki limits the human nation to just Kryta.

The wiki is unreliable – people tend to post speculation as fact, and there are some editors that are stubborn enough in doing so to engage in edit wars. Go to the original sources.

Regarding the original sources, namely the Movement of the World (look that up on the wiki specifically – note that some of the dates have been changed)… the impression I get is that Elona is essentially split into the same regions it was in GW1. The Desolation, with some expansion north into the Crystal Desert proper, is Palawa’s immediate domain and an undead state. Vabbi, Kourna and Istan all seem to be human states with Palawa and his lieutenants calling the shots.

Interestingly, in fact, Kourna and Istan are described as vassal states (as opposed to Vabbi, which he conquered directly) – suggesting that he might still be leaving them a certain degree of independence as long as they give him what he wants and follow whatever orders do get handed down.

Rome had many vassal territories that were counted among the Roman territories. Not all of them were Roman by birth or even considered roman citizens. This is the idea behind the republic. A representative for each territory in the nation. If Jokko is calling the shots they are his territories. It can still be full of humans and part of the undead nation. It’d be like if the charr conquered the humans but then allow them a certain degree of independence. They would still be in the charr nation. It’s a tactic that has been used throughout history. just like the United States, Rome, Israel during the time of the judges, the Mongols and the Assyrians. Counting the humans in jokkos undead nation among human nations is like try to count the denizens of china-town as part of China

I disagree. There are the examples you speak of there, but there are also examples of situations where a nation is notionally independent, but is in a situation where another nation is so dominant over another that it must send that nation tribute and align its foreign policy with that nation or face the consequences. One example would be much of Eastern Europe during the Cold War – the nations were still Polich, Czech, and so on rather than Russian, but their governments were essentially puppets and they sure as kitten jumped when the Soviet Union said frog.

That may be the boat that Kourna and Vabbi are in – their leaders are still human, but they have to pay Joko tribute (including the Ossas) in order to keep him satisfied or he’ll unleash his armies on them.

On top of that, there’s also the distinction between ‘human nation’ and ‘human ruled nation’. Kryta was still regarded as a human nation under the White Mantle, but it was the mursaat calling the shots. Likewise, even with undead calling the shots, if the majority of the population of the Elonian provinces are still human, then they may be no less human than Kryta was then, even with undead viceroys handing down commands from Joko.

It may be but what we have indicates that they belong to Joko. And they have always considered themselves one people, which wasn’t the case in eastern Europe. But as far as this conversation comparing human nation to charr nations, even if this is the case, they are still an undead nation for all intents and purposes because with Joko pulling the strings, they can only make a move by Joko’s will. That means that they don’t represent humanities interest, they represent Joko’s (undead) interest. So at best, they are a non-factor unless undead are a factor.

Actually, looking at how the conversation has flown, Elona originally came up in two contexts:

1) The question of how many nations humans did have before the Searing. This is somewhere between five and nine, depending on how independant you view the Kurzicks, Luxons, and the Elonian provinces as being. Whether the nations are regardable as undead now or not

2) How many nations humans would have if the situations in Cantha and Elona were resolved. If the situation in Elona was resolved with Joko’s removal from power, and if the Elonian states haven’t been depopulated (of the living, at least) then joko’s removal would make them human once again.

The discussion of the last few posts is actually irrelevant to darkace’s contemplations about the overall power of humans compared to charr in one of those situations, so rather than being able to call the moral high ground by relating back to the topic, it’s really more of a question of academic interest at this point.

This may be something we have to agree to disagree on, but I don’t think the nature of the overall head honcho necessarily fixes the entire domain as being of the ethnicity of that ruler, especially when that domain is explicitly split into separate units. Consider Britain, for instance – England is the dominant kingdom and most people generally think of the Queen first as the Queen of England, but Scotland and Wales are quite definitely not English kingdoms. (You could argue that Scotland is different because it was annexed through a unification of thrones rather than conquest, but Wales was certainly taken through conquest.) Similarly, just as Kryta under the mursaat was still regarded as a human kingdom, Istan, Kourna and Vabbi may still be human kingdoms that happen to have an undead dictator (in practise even if Palawa doesn’t formally claim the title). If the majority of the population is still living human, I would say they definitely are human kingdoms – simply human kingdoms that have been conquered by an outside power.

I wouldn’t call it irrelevant at all. yes, it is an intellectual topic but it sprung from darkaces post. So those two aren’t in conflict at all. I don’t claim any moral high ground. What I claim is that speaking to that topic which I joined in on, my points are to that topic.

Again, you have cases where your position is supported, but so do I. Your cases don’t seem to be the situation here. Everything we do have points to my position with the only rebutle aginst my position being “It might not be” and “The wiki may be wrong”.

So if we change the topic from the darkaces point, then you can indeed be right about the majority of the population being what the population is labled. But …. why arbitrarily change that point? The only purpose for that change would be to move away from the situation where my view is correct. And in that case, my point still wouldn’t be incorrect. It would only be the equal of yours.

Except they’re not to that topic, since the topic had no relation to the status of the Elonian kingdoms under Joko, but what they were before the Searing and in the hypothetical situation where Joko is removed. In both cases, they’re definitely human.

“The wiki may be wrong” is actually a very important point here. In the current state of the wiki, using it as a direct resource is a VERY BAD IDEA. There are contributors in the wiki that insist on presenting their speculation and conclusions as if they were confirmed fact, and the current policies of the wiki have stymied attempts to curtail this.

The only thing that I’d trust without checking the facts is the stuff that quoted directly from something ArenaNet provided – an interview, transcripts of a document such as the Movement of the World, or ingame text. And even the latter two of those need to be taken with a pinch of your preferred seasoning, since ArenaNet’s method of presenting the lore is one where in-world sources may be wrong.

Apart from the odd, brief reference ingame, the only information we have on the situation in Elona is from [url=http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World]the Movement of the World[/quote]. In that, the only lines that indicate the status of the kingdoms are the following:

“The monster’s name was Palawa Joko. Within sixty years of Kormir’s rise to godhood, Palawa Joko mustered his former power and marched a new army of mummies, zombies, and other undead out of the Crystal Desert into war with Vabbi. To ensure his dominance, Palawa kitten and diverted the river Elon, causing drought and famine amid the northern provinces of Elona and creating a green and growing area within the Crystal Desert. In this area, Palawa Joko established the seat of his new kingdom.

The horrible famine caused by the diverted river caused widespread rebellion among the people of Vabbi and northern Kourna. Vabbi bowed to his strength simply to survive, and Kourna and Istan both became vassal states.

Palawa’s price for benevolence was tribute, forced loyalty, and all those who bore the name Ossa delivered unto his care."

Everything after speaks specifically of the fates of the Ossas and Sunspears.

So what can we get from those lines?

1) Joko hasn’t done the stereotypical undead ruler thing and wiped out the living population to live over a land of the dead. There isn’t even anything to indicate that undead, with the exception of the lich himself, are viewed as higher class citizens to the living.

2) Vabbi was conquered by Joko, and Kourna and Istan have become ‘vassal states’. What is a ‘vassal state’, then? The Kurzicks and Luxons were both quite independent in GW1 – presumably Joko has more control, but it shows that we really don’t know how much control he’s imposed over Kourna and Istan. It could really be anything from Palawa’s lieutenants being in all positions of power (but note that with the Mordant Crescent and converted Ossans, said lieutenants are not necessarily undead) to Palawa providing food in exchange for tribute and Ossas and otherwise not caring what Kourna and Istan do as long as they continue to show recognition that he’s the top dog in the area and respond when he does ask for something specific.

3) Kourna and Istan pay for their continued survival through ‘tribute, forced loyalty’ and Ossas. Tribute, in both material and people, from a less powerful nation to the dominant one is a common one in history and mythology, but I don’t think anyone is going to say Athens was a Cretan nation just because they were sending a handful of teenagers to be fed to the Minotaur every few years. The ‘forced loyalty’ question is a bit more of a step towards your claims, but when Palawa has living lieutenants as well, that just means that they’re part of the empire of Palawa Joko, not that they themselves have stopped being human kingdoms.

To draw another analogy… Let’s say someone manages to take over all of Tyria, with humans, charr, asura, norn, sylvari, and lesser races alike. For the sake of argument, let’s say its an asura – but that asura has left the existing political structures intact as long as they recognise that asura as Grand Emperor, and shows no favouritism towards asura over the hypothetical Grand Emperor’s other subjects. Does Kryta, in that case, suddenly become an asuran nation because the ultimate overlord of Tyria happens to be an asura, even if its own government is still operating as per normal (unless the overlord intervenes) and the asuran population is no higher than it was before? No. It’s a human kingdom that’s part of the asura’s empire.

Likewise, Joko’s empire consists of a kingdom of undead (the seat of Joko’s power) and three conquered human kingdoms.

They are exactly to the topic because they were brought up as a result of the standard that drakace set in his musings. And not just as a result but in direct reply to that darkace’s post. So my point never deviated from darkaces set tone.

“The wiki may be wrong” is not the end all be all you think it is. All it serves to do is potentially even up our points to the exact same level by saying “we don’t know”. So we see at this point I am still not wrong in my point.

1) The absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. I could counter with “There’s nothing to indicate humans aren’t treated as household pests and slaves”. But why bother? So at this point you’re still saying “We don’t know”.

2) At this point you are still saying you don’t know but we actually get knowing because vassal is a pretty clear indication that the land isn’t owned by the people on it. It’s only by the will of the lord.
vas·sal
noun
1. (in the feudal system) a person granted the use of land, in return for rendering homage, fealty, and usually military service or its equivalent to a lord or other superior; feudal tenant.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vassal?&o=100074&s=t

3) If they are part of his nation, they cease to be their own nation. Since as you said, they didn’t consider themselves 3 nations to begin with but one nation with no central government. So, staying with the standard darkace set, they can’t be counted among the human nations. Counted as a nation made up of a lot of humans? Sure. As I already said, you have examples of other nations that support your point. But A-Net labeled them a vassal states. And they labled themselves one nation. Seperating his living lietanants from his own nation is still akin to separating china town denizens from the country they live in. It makes no sense.

Your analogy pre stacks the deck to support your point because it assumes your point is already correct. I’ll demonstrate by giving you my own analogy that pre stacks it in my favor. The Romans took over most of the known civilized world. They had rulers ruling over specific tracts of land and people. The rulers were largly left alone unless it no longer served Romes interest. many times the people retained their old customs and government because Rome found it easier to govern them that way. The rulers were also killed and replaced at the will of Rome. Those territories were all Roman territories. Set up to run the way Rome wanted them to. (the same way they had been before being taken over in many cases.) Not independent. Only having a longer leash as long as that length in the leash didn’t casue problems for Rome.

So just bacaue they are part of the undead nation doesn’t make them undead. It makes them humans in service of an undead nation. Just as Hebrews, Celts, Greeks, Egyptians, etc. And in the context of the tone that darkace set, they can only represent undead interests. So for all practical applications, they can’t be counted as human nations unless we only care about who lives there and not what actions they might take or the powerbase of the land.

It’s not, because said musings only concerned situations where Elona was not under Joko’s reign and thus was free to act. You say that under Joko’s reign they’re not free to politically align with other human kingdoms? You’re right. Nobody is contending this because it’s obviously true. But it’s not what we’re discussing, because nobody is contending this.

I’m glad you brought up Rome again, because when you look at what they actually did, it does in fact serve my point. The Romans had a system by which conquered peoples could become Roman citizens, at which point it is reasonable to say that territory was Roman regardless – but humans can’t become undead without some pretty drastic measures. The Hebrews are a particularly well-known example – Israel was a vassal kingdom with its own king at the time of Jesus, for instance.

And guess what? It was considered the kingdom of the Jews. Within the Roman empire, yes, and subject to the whims of Rome, but a Jewish kingdom within that empire regardless. Likewise, the Gaulish provinces were Gaulish provinces of the empire (until they became Roman citizens), Aegyptus was the Egyptian province, and so on.

One distinction, though, is that in the Roman Empire, the Romans were seen as higher-class citizens than non-Romans. But there’s nothing in Joko’s demeanour that suggests that he holds the undead as superior to the living (his own person excepted) – in fact, there are scenes in GW1 where he shows contempt for his undead troops, while showing a reasonable amount of respect towards the living PCs. What he cares about seems to be loyalty, competence, and generally how useful a particular individual can be to him, not whether they happen to have a heartbeat.

That’s why I’ve been referring to his empire as ‘the empire of Palawa Joko’ and not ‘the undead empire’. because that’s what it is. And unless we find that Joko has in fact flooded all three with enough undead that more of the population of each is undead than not, it’s an empire that contains human provinces within it.

“Second, the charr have three “nations” and the humans – who once had four – now have one.” This quote which brought Elona into the conversation is solidly within the timeframe of Elona under Joko’s reign. So it absolutlely is what is being discussed and what set the stage for my response.

You just described a situation where one can become an undead just as one could become a roman citizen. Your ruler of judging how easy it is is relataive so it’s also arbitrary. But I reinforce my point that being part of an undead kingdom doesn’t require you yourself to be undead. Only the ruling power is required to be undead. just as every ethnic nation around the world can have a china-town without actually having to be China.

Your “Kingdom of the Jews” in Rome was lead by a client king appointed by Rome. Herod was elected king by the Roman senate. So this only serves to reinforce my point because the king of the Jews didn’t even need to be Jewish and he was only only “borrowing” Roman land in exchange for his service. Making him a “vassal”.

Your description of Joko’s attitude toward his subjects only reinforces the fact that they were part of his kingdom because ypu describe a situation where he doesn’t make a distinction. So far you have described how the Elonians saw themselves as one people and Joko made no distinction but you insist on separating them yourself.

I’ve already conceded that Elonia is made up of a lot of humans. That it is only considered a human nation if you look at who is in it. But definatly not if you look at motives and interests. Which is why the tone Darkace set is so important.

So, would you regard Kryta between 1071 and 1079AE to be a mursaat nation?

Are you ignoring the fact that a-net already labeled them as vassal states? Or that the Elonians view themselves as one nation. The same nation that Joko conquered and controles?

The Kurzicks and Luxons were also labelled as vassal states, and they were if anything more independant than either of us think the Elonian states are.

At this point, we’re basically arguing over definition. You’re claiming that because an undead is ultimately in charge of Elona, every state in Elona is an undead state. So, I repeat my question:

In your view, was Kryta a mursaat state between 1071 and 1079 AE?

Because all of your arguments for saying that Vabbi, Kourna and Istan are all undead states would also apply to Kryta under the White Mantle.

No, I claim that because an undead rules Elona by conquering it with an undead army before establishing his “new kingdom” that every state in Elona is part of an undead nation. I can’t answer your question until it reflects what i’m actually saying.

Looking up the mursaat and the white mantle, I would also say

“That it is only considered a human nation if you look at who is in it. But definatly not if you look at motives and interests. Which is why the tone Darkace set is so important.”

because it actually was run by the mursaat though their army of the white mantle, at the time. so yes, if we replace Elona with Kryta at that time, then it would be a mursaat nation in the context of Darkace’s tone. They owned it, they ruled it. It’s theirs. It is only a human nation if you look at who lives there. Same thing.

In which case, I think we have fundamentally different definitions and are just going to have to agree to disagree.

I’m pretty sure that the majority here follows my viewpoint that there is a distinction between, in this case, “undead nation” and “human nation that has been conquered by undead.” But I have no interest in continuing what has obviously become a definitional debate.

I’d agree but I think the majority of peoples would also agree with me that there is also a difference between “human nation” and “nation of a lot of humans run by another species”.