Charr Mesmers

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Posted by: Malkavian.4516

Malkavian.4516

I don’t see a lot of them (except perhaps the Profession Trainers) in their hometurf these days. I know the Charr don’t trust magic as much when compared to the other races but still. I always wanted to see how Charr Mesmers would behave.

FOR SKYRIM!!!!!

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Like most members of char society, they would tend to be geared for war. In GW1 they were called charr “Chaots”. And when a-net described charr elementalists, they described how the rest of the warband would appreciate a timely meteor shower.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Chaot

http://www.onlinewelten.com/games/guild-wars-2/interviews/jeff-grubb-im-interview-zu-charr-7759/seite-3/

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

Most of them will no doubt be Ash Legion so I’d look into Ash mentality.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

Given their warlike culture, I suspect Charr Mesmers would mostly be interested in magic that created mental torment and agony as a way to destabilise and overcome their foes. (So primarily specialising in Domination magic.) Some of the more cruel members of their race might take this further and become interrogators/torturers.

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Posted by: Weindrasi.3805

Weindrasi.3805

I could imagine charr mesmers being way more discriminated against then other charr magic users.
The charr view magic users as deceptive already, and they hate being tricked. A magic user whose entire profession is based on deception and illusion? To a traditional charr, the very thought is probably disgusting.
Also, necromancer and elementalist magic is more easily understandable. Necromancers draw on death and disease, things that charr are very familiar with already. Elementalists draw on nature—earth, air, water, fire—things that charr interact with every day. But mesmers draw on chaos… and that is very different.
That said, charr society has always been open to anyone who makes themself useful, so a War-Mesmer, placed beside more open-minded soldiers, could be a great asset and even respected.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I suspect Weindrasi largely has it, although it is worth noting that elemental and guardian magic have both been linked to religion among the charr (although neither HAS to be), while no such stigma applies to mesmers.

Chaots, as Dustfinger points out, seem to be largely oriented towards the ‘cruder’ forms of mesmerism – mostly employing brute magical power rather than more subtle effects. This is probably reflective of the more primitive state of charr magical traditions at the time, especially since mesmerism seems to have been less favoured among GW1 charr than other branches of magic. The Chaots, however, don’t seem to have direct descendants among modern charr.

There are, however, a few charr NPC mesmers floating around for a few events. They’re usually Ash Legion offering disguises for one covert operation or another.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: lakdav.3694

lakdav.3694

If energy was a thing in GW2 i would say that Energy Burn is the thing charr mesmers are better at, as the Chaots back in the day mostly utilized Energy Burn and Surge as their major offensive skill. In GW2 i would guess that they would be the most inclined to use greatswords as a focus for their spells amongst the races (If for nothing else than for the Spatial Surge skill).

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Posted by: CureForLiving.5360

CureForLiving.5360

Classically there are 4 Charr Legions, three of them aren’t particularly magically inclined (although I guess I can see the Ash Legion making use of a Mesmer or two). Can’t think of any NPCs though… maybe if someone spots one they can post it here, might gives some insight.

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Posted by: Agroman.7190

Agroman.7190

Mages of all sorts are rather uncommon in Charr society, not counting the Flame Legion.

But we do actually see Charr mesmers in the Personal Story. Vallus Smokemane for example, the PCs father if you pick the gladium story, no matter the Legion. Eventhough he uses mace/shield and wears medium armor, he is a mesmer and makes active use of magic.

(edited by Agroman.7190)

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Posted by: Tanith.5264

Tanith.5264

How do they behave? Like this.

Tanith Fencewalker, Tanni Mindbender, Thyra Wrathbringer, Lovecraft Thrall
Guardians of the Vault [GotV] and Guíld of Dívíne Soldíers [GoDS]
Gate of Madness server

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Posted by: Surbrus.6942

Surbrus.6942

Mages of all sorts are rather uncommon in Charr society

This is not true. GW and GW2 are full of mages everywhere. Pyre’s warband in GW1 was largely mages. Every class besides Warrior and Engineer are magic users in GW2 (if you count Signets and Alchemy, then Warrior and Engineer would also be magic users to an extent). Every second Iron Legion NPC you see uses Guardian magic, and half the Ash Legion NPCs use Necromancer magic.

In fact I see a lot more nameless Charr NPC’s using magic than I see nameless non-Charr NPC’s using magic. It would probably be more realistic to say that “Mages of all sorts are rather uncommon in Krytan society”, as the magic users there seem to all be in the ruling elite (the few consist of the Queen and leader of the Shining Blade, the leader of the Seraph is the only Guardian I’ve seen in the Seraph, etc).

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Mages of all sorts are rather uncommon in Charr society

This is not true. GW and GW2 are full of mages everywhere. Pyre’s warband in GW1 was largely mages. Every class besides Warrior and Engineer are magic users in GW2 (if you count Signets and Alchemy, then Warrior and Engineer would also be magic users to an extent). Every second Iron Legion NPC you see uses Guardian magic, and half the Ash Legion NPCs use Necromancer magic.

In fact I see a lot more nameless Charr NPC’s using magic than I see nameless non-Charr NPC’s using magic. It would probably be more realistic to say that “Mages of all sorts are rather uncommon in Krytan society”, as the magic users there seem to all be in the ruling elite (the few consist of the Queen and leader of the Shining Blade, the leader of the Seraph is the only Guardian I’ve seen in the Seraph, etc).

Magic users are uncommon in modern charr society due to the Flame Legion – which was comprised of most magic users in GW1 – and the distrust that magic has been given since the Flame Legion were overthrown. Talking about GW1’s time is pointless, since it was before the disdain of magic and magic users.

In modern charr society, a lot of magic users are viewed with disdain, and because of this often get recruited into the Flame Legion.

You’ll rarely see a non-necromancer/guardian/thief that isn’t Flame Legion. Even then, most charr are engineers and warriors. The only cases of mesmers in modern charr society I can recall is a couple heart NPCs, such as the Ash Legion guy in south-central Diessa that disguises you as Flame Legion/Separatist with an illusion (seemingly at least).

Lore-wise, magic is prevailent everywhere, as in an interview it was said that everyone can use magic to some degree. Mechanically, your generic NPCs are copied repeatedly time and time again, so naturally if a generic NPC was made into a spellcaster, then all copies of it would be too – however, I don’t think this holds much merit to show the actual proportions. Most Iron Legion, in lore, are engineers – not guardians.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Surbrus.6942

Surbrus.6942

You’ll rarely see a non-necromancer/guardian/thief that isn’t Flame Legion. Even then, most charr are engineers and warriors. The only cases of mesmers in modern charr society I can recall is a couple heart NPCs, such as the Ash Legion guy in south-central Diessa that disguises you as Flame Legion/Separatist with an illusion (seemingly at least).

I outright stated that nearly half of all GW2 Charr NPCs are magic users, particularly as nameless Necromancers and Guardians as Ash and Iron NPCs respectively. Yes the generic NPCs are going to be copy and pasted, but the fact is that Necromancers and Guardians were being copy pasted so often, not Engineers and Warriors.

Even named Charr NPCs are largely magic users. Of your initial Warband, Reeva and Maverick are the only ones that do not use magic. I’m not entirely sure, but all of the new warband members that you can recruit in the PS are all magic users. Rytlock is a Warrior (not a magic user), but I do not know of the other tribunes though.

Most Iron Legion, in lore, are engineers – not guardians.

Iron’s specialty is Engineering, I do not believe I’ve heard anywhere that they are mostly comprised of Engineers. This just sounds like the same sort of baseless assumptions that Ash Legion is comprised mostly of Thieves, and that they wouldn’t have a more realistic composition of classes just because they specialize in subterfuge and espionage.

(edited by Surbrus.6942)

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Ash Necromancers are a special case, since necromancers have been associated with Ash all along.

The Iron Legion Guardians are a weirdness that, I suspect, was done so that the Iron Legion melee were distinct from the Blood Legion melee. It goes against previous lore that indicates that guardians are actually one of the least favoured professions of all among the charr because it has religious associations (yeah, they don’t HAVE to be religious, and the charr recognise that, but there’s still going to be more suspicion that a guardian is a closet theist than, say, a warrior). And yes, this is at least suggested in-game: Dinky is picked on not because he’s dimwitted or runty, but because he’s a guardian.

Regarding the additional warband members – there’s at least one engineer among the possibilities, and some of the others depend on what you classify as a magic-user (I do note that you’re counting thieves as such). However, more importantly… they’re mostly available for you to recruit because they’re the misfits and rejects that haven’t been snapped up by another, less massacred warband. Thus, they’re more representative of what ISN’T typical among the three playable charr legions than of what IS.

Regarding the unnamed NPCs: ArenaNet is pretty lazy about making a representative range of unnamed examples for factions that are universally friendly. This is why the Seraph only have two (both warriors) despite there being a lot of evidence from lore, including in Sea of Sorrows, that they have more. Ebon Vanguard unnamed NPCs are similarly restricted, although their archers may be petless rangers – I can’t remember. Wardens get two brands of ranger and an earth elementalist. Peacemakers and Wolfborn… I haven’t seen fight enough to know what THEY have.

Basically, if an NPC faction has more than two or three “unnamed” types, you can expect them to be an enemy somewhere. For instance, the Seperatists are probably a much better yardstick for the range of professions in the Ebon Vanguard than the Ebon Vanguard themselves are, since most of the Seperatists are probably Vanguard deserters. Charr get a wider range because:

1) They’re essentially three factions – each of the three legions fits the pattern of only having 2 or 3 types each.

2) You DO fight them, as the same unit types are represented in the Renegades.

(With one possible exception – it’s been a while, but I don’t recall any guardians among the Renegades. Given this, and given that Iron is the legion that has the most contact with humans and the guardian profession originated in Kryta… it’s possible that ArenaNet is being more subtle than I’m giving them credit for there. But even so…)

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Here’s what I’ve been able to gather concerning casters:

Anet has stated that the guardian profession appeal equally to both humans and charr for different reasons. There is no religious association about the guardian that the charr care about. “They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity’s defensive nature and the Charr’s desire to rule the battlefield.”
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/01/31/behind-the-scenes-with-the-guild-wars-2-guardian-massivelys-in/

On Ele’s, a-net has confirmed that an elementalist would get picked on. But getting picked on doesn’t doesn’t mean the profession is filtered out of society. “But the charr always appreciate a fellow charr who can carry his or her own weight, and while they might mock an elementalist for his light armor, they appreciate the mobile artillery support that a timely meteor shower provides.” http://www.onlinewelten.com/games/guild-wars-2/interviews/jeff-grubb-im-interview-zu-charr-7759/seite-3/

In interview, a-net has stated that some groups may divert those with a talent for mage professions away from them but a hallmark of charr thinking is the ability to be pragmatic about what casters can provide. While there is certainly a stigma against casters, I think people read too much into that to infer that it must mean they are uncommon when a-net has stated that the proffessions you learn in a farar are based in apptitude. Even if there is a stigmatic attitude against the profession, that attitude doesn’t really translate into the actions we as RL humans would have.

Q: “During their training in the fahrar, how is a charr’s profession decided? What would prompt a cub to be given training in spellcasting, when spellcasting is not particularly liked in charr society? Does the fahrar merely give charr a basic military training and they then leave and decide which profession they want to specialize in?”

Jeff: “Profession is determined by aptitude. If a young charr has magical tendencies, it would be unwise both for the cub and the warband to push him or her into another field. Some groups do this, but others are pragmatic about it – a hallmark of charr thinking. They are not big fans of magical abilities due to the previous power of the Flame Legion, but still see magical abilities as a useful tool. The best modern comparison is the American Football Team, which mostly consists of big, beefy warrior types, but really like to keep around the small guy whose only real skill is to kick the ball 50 yards through a set of uprights.” https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340

I’d guess that part of the problem here was mentioned by someone in another thread. That because all charr are part of the military machine we hold them to a different standard than other races like humanity. In kryta, most casters seem to be either nobles or some type of profession soldier (In a feudal society the two often went hand in hand anyway). So when most of our interaction concerns dealing with nobles and professional soldiery, we see a high percentage of casters. But when we look at charr, we pretty much deal with all levels since they are all part of the great machine. So it would seem like there is less casters. And indeed, there may be more, percentage wise and numerically due to us looking at the total charr population. Looking at the totality of human society would make casters incredibly rare, and that doesn’t make casters exactly “uncommon” in human society. It doesn’t have the same implications, in any event, if we take “uncommon” to mean “there probably won’t be any around even though we know they are out there …somewhere”.

If a charr has a talent for casting magic they may lean toward the active combat aspects of the professions. Guardians might be common due to their largely melee nature. Duelist mesmers and dagger wielding and elemental weapon summoning elementalists may also be more common than staff weilders.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

There were other interviews around the time that indicated that guardians were disfavoured by the charr (not to mention the in-game reference in Dinky’s backstory). In the interviews, they were looking to make a special point of establishing that yes, a charr CAN be a guardian even if it seems an unusual combination.

To be honest, I think part of what makes it an unusual combination is that a charr that is more apt for one of the ‘scholar’ professions is fairly obvious due to lacking the physical strength of a warrior. A weedy but intellectual charr will be trained in magic because that’s what their best contribution would be, but a physically strong charr that might otherwise make a good guardian will likely be pushed into becoming a warrior instead.

A telling point, in fact, is that in Edge of Destiny (which was pretty much where the guardian was first revealed, since it came before the official reveal), Rytlock was completely shocked at what Logan could do in their first encounter. That suggests that charr guardians were rare enough for their capabilities to have been completely outside of Rytlock’s experience. Given the observations made previously – that the unnamed guardians are from the legion that most associates with humans, and that they don’t seem to be among the Renegedes – I suspect that guardian training may only have filtered into charr society in any great quantity since the peace process began. It’s even vaguely possible that they were inspired by Logan.

In general… I think a lot of people are looking at things in absolutes when it’s actually more of a sliding scale. “Charr dislike magic and prefer to use other options” absolutely does not mean that charr do not have magic at all, and thus showing that they do does not negate this observation. On the other hand, “Charr recognise the practicality of magic” does not mean that charr have the same degree of magic as everyone else – particularly since they’ve developed their technology as a substitute.

Even going into the interviews you’ve quoted, there is evidence of charr pushing candidates into other fields. For instance, after talking about how it would be unwise to push a cub with magical tendencies to be pushed into another field, Jefkittennowledges that “Some groups do this”. Now, we don’t know the ratio of those that do and those that are more practical, but this shows that there are at least SOME charr with magical aptitude that are discouraged from developing that aptitude.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

The charr narrative has been one of having inferior magic to their enemies pretty much since Doric’s original push into Ascalon. Even under the Flame Legion, most of the magic the charr used was fairly brute-force: even their mesmers and necromancers tended towards direct damage when more subtle measures made better use of those profession’s potential. When the Flame Legion was overthrown, the other legions lost not only the Flame Legion’s magic-users, but according to the Ecology of the Charr, most of their own also went over to the Flame. Between losing much of their talent to the Flame back then, and the distrust of spellcasters that have developed since, the charr have gone back to a position of being magically at a disadvantage compared to their more advanced enemies.

Now, one thing that may offset this somewhat is that the charr do have a more universal education system than humans do, which might counteract this in terms of per head of population (this would be why few bandits are spellcasters: they’re mostly coming from disadvantaged sectors of human society that might have lacked the opportunity to become spellcasters) – however, when you get to humans that are trained to fight, the fact that humans prize and seek to develop magical talents rather than stigmatising them means that human military units are going to have a higher proportion of spellcasters than their charr equivalents. However, I suspect humans can afford to have a less militarised population, since more humans can be supported on the same amount of land (basic biology – humans are smaller, and have a diet less dependent on meat, which is a less efficient means of extracting calories from most farmland)

We don’t see this among the Seraph, but as I’ve noted, ArenaNet are lazy when it comes to depicting friendly forces (compare the Ascalonian Army in GW1, which only had warriors, rangers, and elementalists, with the Foefire ghosts in GW2, who are the spirits of the very same army, which has a much more complete lineup). Enemy forces which used to be conventional human military forces such as the Seperatists and the Ascalonian ghosts are a much better yardstick of just how common spellcasters are among human military forces (I’d cite Orr as well, but that’s particularly noted as having a noteworthy high level of magic by human standards, so that would be cheating). And there are a lot more magic-users proportionally among the Seperatists and Foefire ghosts than there are among the Renegades.

Finally, on your suggestion that charr magic-users tend to lean towards active combat roles…

I suspect the charr are more practical than that, actually. They have relatively few magic-users, so why train the ones they do have into doing the same things that less magical professions like warriors and engineers can do? Instead, I think they’d be more inclined to push their spellcasters to fill unique roles that can only be performed by magic-users – for instance, the charr mesmers providing disguises for certain events would be an example of this.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

That’s quite a post so i’ll try to do it justice while hitting the points:

There were other interviews around the time that indicated that guardians were disfavoured by the charr (not to mention the in-game reference in Dinky’s backstory). In the interviews, they were looking to make a special point of establishing that yes, a charr CAN be a guardian even if it seems an unusual combination.

I’d be interested in those missing interviews since the one I have access to says the guardian profession is equally appealing to both charr and humans. Not just that a charr it is possible but equally appealing.

after talking about how it would be unwise to push a cub with magical tendencies to be pushed into another field, Jefkittennowledges that “Some groups do this”. Now, we don’t know the ratio of those that do and those that are more practical, but this shows that there are at least SOME charr with magical aptitude that are discouraged from developing that aptitude.

Some indeed are, but they state that the hallmark of charr ingenuity is to overlook this stigma when it comes to training. Hallmark is defined as a distinguishing characteristic.

The charr narrative has been one of having inferior magic to their enemies pretty much since Doric’s original push into Ascalon. Even under the Flame Legion, most of the magic the charr used was fairly brute-force: even their mesmers and necromancers tended towards direct damage when more subtle measures made better use of those profession’s potential. When the Flame Legion was overthrown, the other legions lost not only the Flame Legion’s magic-users, but according to the Ecology of the Charr, most of their own also went over to the Flame.

The charr used to be primitive. But they didn’t lose the casters when the FL was overthrown. The ecology states the shaman surrendered and the rest of charr society allowed them to live because their magic was useful. The charr ended up losing the FL shaman but every High Legion had it’s own shamen. the FL went into hiding. the rest of the shamen were still available.

I suspect the charr are more practical than that, actually. They have relatively few magic-users, so why train the ones they do have into doing the same things that less magical professions like warriors and engineers can do? Instead, I think they’d be more inclined to push their spellcasters to fill unique roles that can only be performed by magic-users – for instance, the charr mesmers providing disguises for certain events would be an example of this.

I’d think since the training is based in aptitude that there is a lot of free will involved. We know that the weapons are only a focus so the basics of mesmerism may not be so different between the weapon types. Charr seem the type to prefer close quarter fights though with all playable races, they are individuals with their own inclinations. Of course, maybe they don’t tend to have any inclinations either way. The example in the Blood Legion of the ele was that they appreciate a timely meteor shower so that might say something.

human military units are going to have a higher proportion of spellcasters than their charr equivalents.

Id agree with this. it seems to be the reason we think there are more casters in human society than charr. because we mainly deal with the elite minority of human subculture that capitolizes magic training.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I’d be interested in those missing interviews since the one I have access to says the guardian profession is equally appealing to both charr and humans. Not just that a charr it is possible but equally appealing.

Unfortunately, there are some that are outright missing, and we haven’t been able to find them since… and as luck has it, they were the ones that had more lore. For instance, there was one where they actually told the story of how the guardian came to be (in more detail than in Sea of Sorrows, albeit without the ritualist mention) and that’s vanished.

Might be in the TowerTalk profession lore interview, but that’s about an hour long and that’s not time I have to spare.

Some indeed are, but they state that the hallmark of charr ingenuity is to overlook this stigma when it comes to training. Hallmark is defined as a distinguishing characteristic.

Actually, they say that pragmatism is a hallmark of charr thinking – which is not in dispute. However, pragmatism can be overridden by stigma regardless of whether it’s a distinguishing characteristic or not, particularly when that stigma is also a distinguishing characteristic of the culture. What that passage is essentially saying is that sometimes the stigma wins, sometimes pragmatism wins. And every time stigma wins, that’s a potential spellcaster they’ve lost.

Additionally, the stigma isn’t just going to affect whether a charr is allowed to become a spellcaster, but also whether they want to. Sure, there’ll be some where they’re just so fascinated by magic that they’ll study it despite the stigma, or they’re physically unsuited to other forms of combat and being a magic-user is better than the even greater stigma of being useless in combat, and maybe even some that have such a strong aptitude for magic that it’s going to develop regardless of whether they want it to or not. However, there are going to be some that have the potential to become a spellcaster, but also have the potential to be something else… and the stigma will push them to choose the option that isn’t going to lead to potential discrimination.

Among other races, magic-users are generally respected and there’s no reason for any member of those races who has the opportunity to learn magic not to do so (although they may avoid necromancy). Among the charr… there is a reason.

The charr used to be primitive. But they didn’t lose the casters when the FL was overthrown. The ecology states the shaman surrendered and the rest of charr society allowed them to live because their magic was useful. The charr ended up losing the FL shaman but every High Legion had it’s own shamen. the FL went into hiding. the rest of the shamen were still available.

Again, I have a feeling there is an interview somewhere that indicated that the shamans went over permanently, if not then, then later. Certainly, given the description of their treatment in the Ecology of the Charr, and that we know the Flame Legion tends to recruit from dissatisfied members of the other legions, I doubt there are many shamans that didn’t defect. Modern charr magical traditions among the other legions probably grew from those few magic-users they had left that weren’t shamans, possibly along with some cross-pollination from the norn. Certainly, there’s a big difference between the Flame Legion’s magic and the magic available to PCs – Flame Legion magic, somewhat like charr magic in general in GW1, is much more brute-force oriented.

I’d think since the training is based in aptitude that there is a lot of free will involved. We know that the weapons are only a focus so the basics of mesmerism may not be so different between the weapon types. Charr seem the type to prefer close quarter fights though with all playable races, they are individuals with their own inclinations. Of course, maybe they don’t tend to have any inclinations either way. The example in the Blood Legion of the ele was that they appreciate a timely meteor shower so that might say something.

Free will is still subject to peer pressure, and it’s even possible that a charr magic-user may be ordered to take a particular path by their legionnaire (staff instead of dagger/dagger for elementalists, say). That example of the Blood Legion meteor shower is in fact a perfect example – the elementalist is providing the warband with something they wouldn’t have otherwise (namely, integrated artillery support that doesn’t require lugging a mortar around).

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Id agree with this. it seems to be the reason we think there are more casters in human society than charr. because we mainly deal with the elite minority of human subculture that capitolizes magic training.

I wouldn’t say it’s a minority per se – while we don’t know what the current state of education in Kryta is, it does seem that while the criminal and street rat element might be denied the opportunity (as seen by the general lack of magic-users among the bandits) you don’t need to be a noble to receive magical training either, as seen by Marjory and Logan. The common element may be that Marjory and Logan have both been part of military groups (Logan still is) – thus, it’s likely that part of military training is identifying those with magical talent and giving them the opportunities to develop that talent.

Either way, it may be a subculture, but it IS the caste that’s important from a military perspective. When considering what the two races might bring to a battlefield – whether as allies or enemies – it doesn’t matter how many farmers the human side of things left behind, they’re going to have a higher ratio of magic-users. As shown by comparing the profession lineups of, say, the Separatists and the Renegades.

At the bottom line, that stigma is GOING to have an effect. It means that some warbands do push their members away from high-magic professions, and it means that on the individual level, charr might choose to eschew magical pursuits because of the stigma.

(Incidentally, another thing we’ve both been neglecting in what’s typical for the races is how they’re portrayed in the books. I think Ghosts of Ascalon is the only one that doesn’t have spellcasting humans playing a prominent role in there somewhere. However, the closest to a charr magic-user I can recall in any of the books is Ember being a (presumed) thief. Even going into the GW2 story, while there are certainly a few charr magic-users around, how many prominent non-charr magic-users can you name (defining a magic-user here as one of the ‘big four’ that uses staff and sceptre rather than martial ranged weapons)? Smodur is described as an engineer, Rox is a ranger, Tybalt an engineer, Almorra a warrior… outside of the charr PC’s warband, and two options for the charr PC’s father where it’s important to the story that they are the professions they are, there aren’t any charr magic-users I can think of with more than a bit part. Sure, it’s a small sample size, but don’t you think it’s saying something that when ArenaNet makes a charr character that’s going to hold the spotlight for more than a single event chain, it’s never a necromancer, elementalist, guardian or mesmer?)

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Charr Mesmers

in Lore

Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Unfortunately, there are some that are outright missing, and we haven’t been able to find them since… and as luck has it, they were the ones that had more lore. For instance, there was one where they actually told the story of how the guardian came to be (in more detail than in Sea of Sorrows, albeit without the ritualist mention) and that’s vanished.

Might be in the TowerTalk profession lore interview, but that’s about an hour long and that’s not time I have to spare.

RL human recollection is too flawed to be reliable without a reference source. We tend to remember what we interpreted rather than what is actually there. Without a source I think the more responsible route is go with the lore sources we do have. The lore we do have is that the guardian profession is equaly appealing to charr and human alike, for different reasons.

Actually, they say that pragmatism is a hallmark of charr thinking – which is not in dispute. However, pragmatism can be overridden by stigma regardless of whether it’s a distinguishing characteristic or not, particularly when that stigma is also a distinguishing characteristic of the culture. What that passage is essentially saying is that sometimes the stigma wins, sometimes pragmatism wins. And every time stigma wins, that’s a potential spellcaster they’ve lost.

The source applies that pragmatism to overlooking that stigma when it comes to training.

Additionally, the stigma isn’t just going to affect whether a charr is allowed to become a spellcaster, but also whether they want to. Sure, there’ll be some where they’re just so fascinated by magic that they’ll study it despite the stigma, or they’re physically unsuited to other forms of combat and being a magic-user is better than the even greater stigma of being useless in combat, and maybe even some that have such a strong aptitude for magic that it’s going to develop regardless of whether they want it to or not. However, there are going to be some that have the potential to become a spellcaster, but also have the potential to be something else… and the stigma will push them to choose the option that isn’t going to lead to potential discrimination. Among other races, magic-users are generally respected and there’s no reason for any member of those races who has the opportunity to learn magic not to do so (although they may avoid necromancy). Among the charr… there is a reason.

Keep in mind, the training is based on aptitude, not preference.

Again, I have a feeling there is an interview somewhere that indicated that the shamans went over permanently, if not then, then later. Certainly, given the description of their treatment in the Ecology of the Charr, and that we know the Flame Legion tends to recruit from dissatisfied members of the other legions, I doubt there are many shamans that didn’t defect. Modern charr magical traditions among the other legions probably grew from those few magic-users they had left that weren’t shamans, possibly along with some cross-pollination from the norn. Certainly, there’s a big difference between the Flame Legion’s magic and the magic available to PCs – Flame Legion magic, somewhat like charr magic in general in GW1, is much more brute-force oriented

We can’ really say “it probably happened” without some type of available source. But keep in mind the shamen had magic before the FL found the “gods”. So the new magic came from the titans as the ecology states. taking away the titanic magic, the charr are left with the same type of magic everyone else is left with. Because magic is a natural force that has been inceasing in potential for the charr as well as everyone else.

Free will is still subject to peer pressure, and it’s even possible that a charr magic-user may be ordered to take a particular path by their legionnaire (staff instead of dagger/dagger for elementalists, say). That example of the Blood Legion meteor shower is in fact a perfect example – the elementalist is providing the warband with something they wouldn’t have otherwise (namely, integrated artillery support that doesn’t require lugging a mortar around).

Again, you may be right. However since it has been confirmed that the weapon only counts as a focus, we know the magic is the same. So charr may not be limited in training at all. Like the PC, and the NPC trainers, they may be fluent in all available focus uses. That would certainly be the most pragmatic way of going about it.

Charr Mesmers

in Lore

Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

I wouldn’t say it’s a minority per se – while we don’t know what the current state of education in Kryta is, it does seem that while the criminal and street rat element might be denied the opportunity (as seen by the general lack of magic-users among the bandits) you don’t need to be a noble to receive magical training either, as seen by Marjory and Logan. The common element may be that Marjory and Logan have both been part of military groups (Logan still is) – thus, it’s likely that part of military training is identifying those with magical talent and giving them the opportunities to develop that talent.

I don’t know if it’s likely but it certainly is possible. However they would still be greatly limited by the available troops to train.

Either way, it may be a subculture, but it IS the caste that’s important from a military perspective. When considering what the two races might bring to a battlefield – whether as allies or enemies – it doesn’t matter how many farmers the human side of things left behind, they’re going to have a higher ratio of magic-users. As shown by comparing the profession lineups of, say, the Separatists and the Renegades.

At the bottom line, that stigma is GOING to have an effect. It means that some warbands do push their members away from high-magic professions, and it means that on the individual level, charr might choose to eschew magical pursuits because of the stigma.

if the charr have a higher number of spell casters in a lower ratio compared to their total force, it will matter. So humanity has to make sure they have more troops in any given battle. Remember, SoS states that the tactics that are most effective against charr is to throw wave after wave of human troops into the meatgrinder. It gives the impression that all the enemies charr have to fight on multiple fronts was a big saving grace that humans had during the war.

It will absolutely have some kind of effect. But is it enough to eliminate an established system of where pragmatism in training is the hallmark and where all possible citizens with an aptitude for the scholarly professions can be identified and trained? I doubt it. The charr social structure has such a strong advantage in this reguard.

(Incidentally, another thing we’ve both been neglecting in what’s typical for the races is how they’re portrayed in the books. I think Ghosts of Ascalon is the only one that doesn’t have spellcasting humans playing a prominent role in there somewhere. However, the closest to a charr magic-user I can recall in any of the books is Ember being a (presumed) thief. Even going into the GW2 story, while there are certainly a few charr magic-users around, how many prominent non-charr magic-users can you name (defining a magic-user here as one of the ‘big four’ that uses staff and sceptre rather than martial ranged weapons)? Smodur is described as an engineer, Rox is a ranger, Tybalt an engineer, Almorra a warrior… outside of the charr PC’s warband, and two options for the charr PC’s father where it’s important to the story that they are the professions they are, there aren’t any charr magic-users I can think of with more than a bit part. Sure, it’s a small sample size, but don’t you think it’s saying something that when ArenaNet makes a charr character that’s going to hold the spotlight for more than a single event chain, it’s never a necromancer, elementalist, guardian or mesmer?)

I’s say it says a couple things.

1. In comparison to the entirety of charr society, scholars classes are the most rare due to charr aggressive nature. This doesn’t speak to hard numbers though. Only relative numbers. because when we see the charr proffessions, no element of charr society is ignored due to their educational infrastructure.

2. heroes are more interesting when they have the spotlight. The heroic elements of each legion will likely come from what each legion is known for. since that is what the legions focus on.

But we also have to acknowledge that each High Legion is it’s own independent nation. So each each High Legion trains enough spell casters to be pragmatically effective and enough to reasonably be prepared for future calamities. That doesn’t mean it needs to be the primary focus of military society like it is in kryta or the FL. It just means they have them pretty widely avaibale. especially in proffessions that are confirmed equally appealing.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

Charr Mesmers

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Okay, I did a bit of searching, and while I think the guardian stuff is lost, here’s some relevant quotes:

http://project2501.co.uk/gw2/ree_soesbee.html: “Well one thing we did when we were sitting looking at the races and the professions was we made a big graph and put races down one side and professions across the top, and we went ‘How do the asura feel about elementalists? Ok, they like them. How do the asura feel about…’ and we went through each race and each profession, and we figured there was ‘like’ there was ‘neutral’ and there was ‘dislike’. And dislike didn’t mean we never had them, it just meant more rare or more unusual. And when we handed this to the designers we said make the NPCs in the world reflect this. There shouldn’t be a lot of charr who do magic. There are some, and if you want a charr who does magic in this story or this map make sure there’s a reason cause there shouldn’t be many and there needs to be a purpose for him. They… they just aren’t common. The same thing for sylvari engineers. The sylvari are very interested in engineering, but it’s a little unusual for them because it was something that was developed by the asura, and they don’t get on so well with the asura… well developed by the charr, but the asura were the first engineers that the sylvari met, so… Let’s put it that way.”

Which, short of getting a similar paragraph on what humans do or don’t like (frankly, I would… maybe not literally kill, but you know what I mean… for a picture of that graph), I think is pretty much conclusive, but let’s continue anyway to go into the reasons why:

The source applies that pragmatism to overlooking that stigma when it comes to training.

But the source also specifically says that in at least some cases, the stigma does mean that potential magic users are pushed into other fields. Your own source says so. All that’s left to consider is the ratio – and nothing in the quote points either way in that respect.

Keep in mind, the training is based on aptitude, not preference.

Even if we assume a totally authoritarian state with no consideration whatsoever for preferences…

…unless the charr have some sort of spell or device that can detect a cub’s innate magical potential (something I don’t think we’ve heard of anywhere – the Eye of Janthir turned out to be detecting something else), lack of aptitude is easy to fake. I’m good at mathematics, but if I was living in a society where the overwhelming attitude was that mathematicians were distrusted and could generally never hope to achieve the same level of respect that goes easily to mechanics, but where showing enough skill in mathematics might get you pushed into that field whether you wanted to or not… well, you could bet I’d seriously consider deliberately doing poorly in maths tests, while spending what spare time I had practicing maintenance rather than numeracy.

Similarly, potential charr magic-users who have a chance at getting into another profession may deliberately do poorly on magical aptitude tests, while doing what they can to build up aptitude for another profession that will get them more respect. Those that aren’t suited for anything else might go into magic because not much respect is better than being deadweight, others might be fascinated enough by it that they don’t care about the stigma, and so on – but it’s quite likely that there are some which could have gone either into a highly magical or a less magical profession, and because of the stigma, they did their best to ensure that their aptitude tests came out pointing to them being more suited to the more respected profession.

And this is assuming that the non-Flame charr have the same general aptitude for magic as other races to begin with.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Charr Mesmers

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

We can’ really say “it probably happened” without some type of available source. But keep in mind the shamen had magic before the FL found the “gods”. So the new magic came from the titans as the ecology states. taking away the titanic magic, the charr are left with the same type of magic everyone else is left with. Because magic is a natural force that has been inceasing in potential for the charr as well as everyone else.

Actually, there’s circumstantial evidence that until the titans appeared, the charr were behind most races. The splitting of the Bloodstones happened largely because other races got enough magic of their own to start pressing humans fairly hard, but the charr remained on the losing side until the titans intervened. This may indicate that as a race, they have less magical aptitude in general.

Add to that that the Flame Legion specifically seeks to poach the magic-users of other legions, then if magical aptitude is something that is inherited, it’s possible that the incidence of magical aptitude among the other legions has been substantially reduced. (Especially since the lower respect for magic-users may result in lower reproductive success even for those that remain loyal.)

Again, you may be right. However since it has been confirmed that the weapon only counts as a focus, we know the magic is the same. So charr may not be limited in training at all. Like the PC, and the NPC trainers, they may be fluent in all available focus uses. That would certainly be the most pragmatic way of going about it.

Oh, I expect they train in the branches of magic represented by all of the focuses. However, what they’ll end up doing in most cases is probably a case of ‘what can’t be done by the other guys’.

I don’t know if it’s likely but it certainly is possible. However they would still be greatly limited by the available troops to train.

Non-military get trained in magic as well (Kasmeer comments in the Fort Salma PS instance to the effect that her education wasn’t aimed at military service…). It’s likely that nobles, military, and potential priests at least all get the opportunity to learn magic. Similar, I expect, for lay medical professionals. And this is something where we may be getting cause and effect mixed up – it’s possible that the human education system, whatever that is, allows for magical aptitude to be demonstrated and gives those that show it the opportunity to further develop it: but like some scholarships today, that teaching comes at the price of the expectation that the student will work in a particular field afterwards (unless they’re nobles and their family pays for it). So the presence of more magic users among soldiers than, say, street bandits might not be because a human only gets the chance to learn magic if they first volunteer to become a soldier – it might be that if a human student gets high marks in magical aptitude testing (however that is done…) then they start getting offers from military orders and other organisations offering scholarships in exchange for commitments to work for them after they graduate.

Which may, incidentally, go some way to explain why the Seraph has relatively few – they’ve been described as underfunded in a number of sources, so they may not have the ability to offer such scholarships and thus most gifted individuals with military leanings get snapped up by the Shining Blade or Ministry Guard instead.

The relevance referring back to bandits, then, is not necessarily that there are few opportunities for lower-class humans to become spellcasters – it might be that lower-class humans who display magical talent get opportunities for upward mobility that means they don’t have to resort to a life of crime.

So in the best-case scenario, humans actually do have a fairly efficient system of identifying magical aptitude regardless of social class and those that are identified are then funnelled into appropriate careers. In the worst-case scenario, for non-nobles it may only be identified if they elect to pursue the right career… but this still means that, proportionally-speaking, a human military force is going to bring more magic to the table than a charr military force (beyond that, let’s keep in mind that this thread is not intended to be yet another e-feline-measuring which-will-win-if-the-war-restarts thread, but that this conversation came up due to a couple of people observing that magic users were rare among charr and somebody else objecting – something which I think the quote at the top of my previous post firmly establishes). Where the truth fits between these two extremes… we don’t know.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Charr Mesmers

in Lore

Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Okay, I did a bit of searching, and while I think the guardian stuff is lost, here’s some relevant quotes:

http://project2501.co.uk/gw2/ree_soesbee.html: “Well one thing we did when we were sitting looking at the races and the professions was we made a big graph and put races down one side and professions across the top, and we went ‘How do the asura feel about elementalists? Ok, they like them. How do the asura feel about…’ and we went through each race and each profession, and we figured there was ‘like’ there was ‘neutral’ and there was ‘dislike’. And dislike didn’t mean we never had them, it just meant more rare or more unusual. And when we handed this to the designers we said make the NPCs in the world reflect this. There shouldn’t be a lot of charr who do magic. There are some, and if you want a charr who does magic in this story or this map make sure there’s a reason cause there shouldn’t be many and there needs to be a purpose for him. They… they just aren’t common. The same thing for sylvari engineers. The sylvari are very interested in engineering, but it’s a little unusual for them because it was something that was developed by the asura, and they don’t get on so well with the asura… well developed by the charr, but the asura were the first engineers that the sylvari met, so… Let’s put it that way.”

First off I’d like to say “great reference! Thank you”.

I’d say this is pretty indisputable that there are less magic users in charr than there are in other races. But it raises another issue. All those charr guardians were confirmed intentional. So, given that info couled with the reference that guardians appeal equally to humans and charr, perhaps the charr don’t view the guardians as a magic class the samw way they view other magic clases because it’s not a scholar class. And we know almost all other classes including basic warriors have access to some kind of magic. So perhaps what the charr view as a magic profession is one you have to study in a scholarly format where as guardian magic is accessed in the heat of battle. So may be view more akin to a warrior magic than an elementalists.

Which, short of getting a similar paragraph on what humans do or don’t like (frankly, I would… maybe not literally kill, but you know what I mean… for a picture of that graph), I think is pretty much conclusive, but let’s continue anyway to go into the reasons why:

But the source also specifically says that in at least some cases, the stigma does mean that potential magic users are pushed into other fields. Your own source says so. All that’s left to consider is the ratio – and nothing in the quote points either way in that respect.

Agreed

Even if we assume a totally authoritarian state with no consideration whatsoever for preferences…

…unless the charr have some sort of spell or device that can detect a cub’s innate magical potential (something I don’t think we’ve heard of anywhere – the Eye of Janthir turned out to be detecting something else), lack of aptitude is easy to fake. I’m good at ///you wanted to or not… well, you could bet I’d seriously consider deliberately doing poorly in maths tests, while spending what spare time I had practicing maintenance rather than numeracy.

Similarly, potential charr magic-users who have a chance at getting into another profession may deliberately do poorly on magical aptitude tests, while doing what they can to /// less magical profession, and because of the stigma, they did their best to ensure that their aptitude tests came out pointing to them being more suited to the more respected profession.

And this is assuming that the non-Flame charr have the same general aptitude for magic as other races to begin with.

Charr enter the fharar very young. Instructors trained in recognizing aptitude for training purposes would have a tough time being tricked by young cubs they have helped raise since childhood. Not to say it can’t happen at all but I don’t see it being an often enough occurance to really count.

I see no reason to assume flame charr have more natural talent for magic than any other charr. Any more than an iron Legion charr would have more natural aptitude for engineering. That’s just what what the nations of the FL and IR respectively, focuses on.

(edited by Dustfinger.9510)

Charr Mesmers

in Lore

Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Actually, there’s circumstantial evidence that until the titans appeared, the charr were behind most races. The splitting of the Bloodstones happened largely because other races got enough magic of their own to start pressing humans fairly hard, but the charr remained on the losing side until the titans intervened. This may indicate that as a race, they have less magical aptitude in general.

The charr along with all those other races remained on the losing side. This circumstancial evidence holds the charr to a different ruller than all others. And it conflicts with the lore that all natural magic (Not godly magic) is equally available at all times.

Add to that that the Flame Legion specifically seeks to poach the magic-users of other legions, then if magical aptitude is something that is inherited, it’s possible that the incidence of magical aptitude among the other legions has been substantially reduced. (Especially since the lower respect for magic-users may result in lower reproductive success even for those that remain loyal.)

They poach anybody but i’m sure they may be a bit more successful with unhappy casters than anyone else. remember, in the shaman dad story line, the entire warband defected. Not just the shaman dad.

Oh, I expect they train in the branches of magic represented by all of the focuses. However, what they’ll end up doing in most cases is probably a case of ‘what can’t be done by the other guys’.

Or they’d appreciate an intimate knowledge of what can be done by the other guys.

Non-military get trained in magic as well (Kasmeer comments in the Fort Salma PS instance to the effect that her education wasn’t aimed at military service…). It’s likely that nobles, military, and potential priests at least all get the opportunity to learn magic. Similar, I expect, for lay medical professionals. And this is something where we may be getting cause and effect mixed up – it’s possible that the human education system, whatever that is, allows for magical aptitude to be demonstrated and gives those that show it the opportunity to further develop it: but like some scholarships today, that teaching comes at the price of the expectation that the student will work in a particular field afterwards (unless they’re nobles and their family pays for it). So the presence of more magic users among soldiers than, say, street bandits might not be because a human only gets the chance to learn magic if they first volunteer to become a soldier – it might be that if a human student gets high marks in magical aptitude testing (however that is done…) then they start getting offers from military orders and other organisations offering scholarships in exchange for commitments to work for them after they graduate.

Which may, incidentally, go some way to explain why the Seraph has relatively few – they’ve been described as underfunded in a number of sources, so they may not have the ability to offer such scholarships and thus most gifted individuals with military leanings get snapped up by the Shining Blade or Ministry Guard instead.

I hadn’t considered that but it’s certainly possible.

The relevance referring back to bandits, then, is not necessarily that there are few opportunities for lower-class humans to become spellcasters – it might be that lower-class humans who display magical talent get opportunities for upward mobility that means they don’t have to resort to a life of crime.

Also a reasonable possibility.

So in the best-case scenario, humans actually do have a fairly efficient system of identifying magical aptitude regardless of social class and those that are identified are then funnelled into appropriate careers. In the worst-case scenario, for non-nobles it may only be identified if they elect to pursue the right career… but this still means that, proportionally-speaking, a human military force is going to bring more magic to the table than a charr military force (beyond that, let’s keep in mind that this thread is not intended to be yet another e-feline-measuring which-will-win-if-the-war-restarts thread, but that this conversation came up due to a couple of people observing that magic users were rare among charr and somebody else objecting – something which I think the quote at the top of my previous post firmly establishes). Where the truth fits between these two extremes… we don’t know.

Agreed. At no point have I been trying to make this a case of who would win. I only seek to consider and apply all available info that may apply.

Charr Mesmers

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

First off I’d like to say “great reference! Thank you”.

I actually found it pretty much by accident – I knew that discussion was had somewhere, but not in which interview, and was looking for something else when I found it. (And didn’t find what I WAS looking for… there doesn’t seem to be an equivalent transcript for the TowerTalk specials on charr or on the professions).

All those charr guardians were confirmed intentional. So, given that info couled with the reference that guardians appeal equally to humans and charr, perhaps the charr don’t view the guardians as a magic class the samw way they view other magic clases because it’s not a scholar class. And we know almost all other classes including basic warriors have access to some kind of magic. So perhaps what the charr view as a magic profession is one you have to study in a scholarly format where as guardian magic is accessed in the heat of battle. So may be view more akin to a warrior magic than an elementalists.

On the other hand, we have Dinky being picked on for being a guardian, and Rytlock being caught completely by surprise by guardian magic in EoD. And while the reference may be gone, I’m confident enough in my memory that guardians were stated to be rare among charr because they were associated with humans and spirituality (even though neither is actually REQUIRED to be a guardian) not to follow a line of speculation that relies on that being false.

It’s possible that they were a mistake – wouldn’t be the only time ArenaNet has messed up their lore, or the biggest for that matter. But, since playing the ‘it was a mistake’ card isn’t really satisfying for either side, here’s my theory:

As I’ve noted before, the Iron Legion guardians have a few interesting observations that can be made about them. First, they’re in the Legion that has the most interaction (and, since the truce, the most peaceful interaction) with humans. Second, to my memory (although I’m a little less sure on this point – although it would be easy to check, I’ve just been focused on doing other things with my game time) there are no guardian renegades. Third, and this is one I didn’t note before, the Iron Legion is also the legion that is most directly involved with the ghosts.

Thus, I suspect what might be going on with the Iron Legion guardians is that they’re a recent phenomenon. Whether due to stigma, lack of trainers, or both, guardians were rare enough to be virtually unknown among the charr prior to Edge of Destiny. Between Logan’s example (it may not be universal due to what happened with Kralkatorrik, but Logan does seem to be respected among some charr, particularly given that he played a significant role in setting up the possibility of a truce) and the truce, the stigma may have been reduced and more Iron Legion charr are developing both the motive and possibly also the opportunity to receive guardian training. (Particularly since, lore-wise, it IS possible to switch professions, and becoming a guardian from a warrior is probably a simple case of ‘just add (more) magic’.)

The third observation is not reflected in game mechanics, but it strikes me as likely that guardian abilities in lore might be more effective in fighting ghosts than simply hitting them with metal objects. Against less specific opponents, guardians probably present a better synergy with modern warfare tactics than melee warriors, thus providing an encouragement for Iron Legion soldiers who enjoy melee to take that approach. (And, considering the other profession with similar synergies, other Iron Legion members might be inclined to at least distrust guardians at least less than tricksy mesmers who could be messing around with their minds…)

So ultimately, I think the Iron Legion guardians are probably a relatively recent phenomenon, and guardians remain rare among the other legions and, likely, even among Iron Legion stationed in the territories of other regions. We see a disproportionate number of them because nearly all of the charr guardians that exist are in Ascalon. Given time, particularly if the truce holds, I could see guardians becoming associated with the Iron Legion just as necromancers are associated with Ash – mind you, if the truce holds, I could see the stigma against magic draining over time in general.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Charr Mesmers

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Charr enter the fahrar very young. Instructors trained in recognizing aptitude for training purposes would have a tough time being tricked by young cubs they have helped raise since childhood. Not to say it can’t happen at all but I don’t see it being an often enough occurance to really count.

Children usually recognise early on which professions are generally respected and regarded as glamorous and which aren’t. Charr cubs mature faster than humans IIRC, so it’s likely that they’ll pick up on these distinctions even faster.

Additionally, while I gave an example of a deliberate deception, it doesn’t have to be. A charr cub who really wants to be a warrior rather than a magician when they grow up is probably going to spend whatever discretionary time they have practicing physical combat techniques rather than studying magic, meaning that when they’re aptitude is tested they’ll legitimately come up as being more suited to becoming a warrior… even if the exact same cub, if brought up in a more magic-friendly environment, might have focused more on magic and ended up more proficient there instead.

I see no reason to assume flame charr have more natural talent for magic than any other charr. Any more than an iron Legion charr would have more natural aptitude for engineering. That’s just what what the nations of the FL and IR respectively, focuses on.

If magical affinity is something that can be inherited, that would do it. Given how the legions were founded in the first place (Ash was the Khan-Ur’s special forces, Iron the siege engineers, etc) it’s likely that most of the magical potential among the charr was focused in the Flame in the first place, and recruitment of magic-users from other legions into the Flame since would have further concentrated this. A cub born in the Flame Legion is probably a cub who had more forefathers with magical capabilities and thus is more likely to have inherited magical talents. Meanwhile, an Iron Legion cub whose ancestors were mostly engineers quite likely would be more likely to have natural aptitude for engineering than, say, a Blood Legion cub. Let’s not sweep genetics under the proverbial table.

The charr along with all those other races remained on the losing side. This circumstancial evidence holds the charr to a different ruller than all others. And it conflicts with the lore that all natural magic (Not godly magic) is equally available at all times.

Natural magic is equally available to everyone (‘at all times’ I would contest, as there’s clear evidence that magic is stronger now than it was even in GW1, let alone before the gods tampered with the Bloodstone), but the knowledge and ability to wield it is not. When it comes to godly magic… actual, legitimate cases of godly magic seems to be quite rare. Most of what humans have interpreted as such has turned out to be natural magic.

According to the Prophecies Manuscript, part of what pushed Doric to request a lessening of the power of magic was humans being at risk of extinction from other races using magic against them. Now, the Prophecies Manuscripts are now highly suspect and it could actually have all been inter-human warfare like the Guild Wars… however, it is worth noting that other races such as the centaurs and tengu were able to become magically powerful without needing to be taught by the titans, and the asura, by most metrics, have pulled ahead in magical knowledge (probably because they were already a magical society before the gods tampered with the bloodstones and used to making the most out of small amounts of magic, so when more became available, they were better placed to make efficient use of large amounts of magic too).

Now, it’s possible that the charr shamans did have a similar level of magic to those of the centaurs and tengu pre-titans, and the titans just granted them the Searing Cauldrons. Since the charr were still losing to Ascalon up until that point, lack of magic is cited as one of the reasons they were losing, and that for most of that time the fighting seems to have been well out of the range of artifacts like Stormcaller, I think that’s indicative that the charr were weaker magically –speaking between the Exodus and when the titans appeared on the scene c870AE.

That said, I acknowledge that this on its own is not entirely conclusive – it’s possible that the only real distinction between the charr and the tengu and centaurs in this respect is that the charr were the ones “lucky” enough to meet the titans – and if history had been different, we may be talking about how the centaurs that seared Kryta were magically weaker before meeting the Titans compared to the charr that are invading Ascalon with assistance from bandits supported by political opponents of the Ascalonian monarch.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

(edited by draxynnic.3719)

Charr Mesmers

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

They poach anybody but i’m sure they may be a bit more successful with unhappy casters than anyone else. remember, in the shaman dad story line, the entire warband defected. Not just the shaman dad.

They favour spellcasters – probably partially because spellcasters are more likely to be unhappy, but also because they value spellcasters more. Shaman dad, incidentally, isn’t the only case of this – Soure Doomsday in the Blood storyline, for instance, is a target for Flame Legion recruitment.

Or they’d appreciate an intimate knowledge of what can be done by the other guys.

As in, what the opposition can do? Possibly. Mind you, modern magical techniques used by the playable factions seem to be quite different to those used by the Ascalonian ghosts (two and a half centuries out of date) or the Flame Legion (who have gone their own fire-centric way). In the latter case, I suspect a contributing factor is that the charr of the allied legions have had access to the wider magical community (even pre-truce, knowledge would probably filter through from the norn) while the Flame generally hasn’t. Mind you, this might give them added incentive to recruit the magic-users of other legions – it gives them an avenue to learn of developments elsewhere.

My thinking is that while charr magic-users probably do learn the close-in techniques for when they’re needed, most warbands probably have them do things that can’t be done by the warriors, thieves, engineers and rangers that are probably more common. So while, for instance, a charr elementalist can jump in and tear things up with dagger/dagger spells, most warbands will have enough melee capability from warriors, thieves, and rangers that they don’t need that from the elementalist. What they will want is that mobile artillery capability with Meteor Showers.

Agreed. At no point have I been trying to make this a case of who would win. I only seek to consider and apply all available info that may apply.

Yeah, I’ve had more of that impression from you – some people come across as quite jingoistic about refusing to accept that the almighty charr might have weak spots, though. Suffice it to say that the parenthetical remark wasn’t directed specifically to you.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.