Guild Wars 2

I have a few general questions and thoughts about charr physiology that I was told to entertain here. Firstly, I would like to merely question what people think the average life length of a charr is. It’s not stated on the wiki or anywhere else to my knowledge, but a friend of mine said they would likely have shorter lives than humans being big cats who are mostly carnivorous.

Another topic I’d like to discuss is the presence or absence of retractable claws in charr.

Apparently, in Ghosts of Ascalon, Almorra Soulkeeper once retracts her claws, and that is taken by some people as proof they would all have them, but others believe charr claws are too large to properly retract.

From the handbook The Making of Guild Wars 2 that came with the Collector’s Edition of the game, Character Artist Katy Hargrove is quoted as saying that, “I initially drew the females without their claws—they would retract when not in battle—to soften them up a little, but it didn’t work out too well.” (Page 51) This would lead me to believe that since Ghosts of Ascalon was written and published while Guild Wars 2 was being developed, the inclusion of retractable claws was a mere oversight, a concept since thrown-out in development.

However, this is not a direct statement one way or the other and I interpret it as I will, and I posted this information on the Guild Wars 2 wiki for review and was told to put it here to achieve a larger audience. Not one to argue with good advice, I figured why the heck not and here you go.

I’m open to any thoughts or anything, really.

I did see in the wiki that they are described as having retractable claws. There is strong evidence to support that they are retractable while them being too large to be retractable may just be artistic liscence and character design timetable completion. kind of how the height of norn has changed to better fit within the game.

On their age, Pyre Firceshot was a hero and adult. 40 years later his grandcub became another hero. So this at least loosely makes human and charr lifespan comparable. And when asked about the maturation rate of charr Jeff grubb said nothing of differing lifespan but only that the maturation rate is about the same rate as humans. he could have been talking about physical developeent maturation but we know charr delope alot sooner (a few weeks after birth they are walking). he could have been talking about social maturation but he also addressed that later in his answer. So he was probably talkign about lifespan. http://ashenfold.com/ashenfold-cartel-interview-with-jeff-grubb-and-eric-flannum/

Oak.4978:

Firstly, I would like to merely question what people think the average life length of a charr is. It’s not stated on the wiki or anywhere else to my knowledge, but a friend of mine said they would likely have shorter lives than humans being big cats who are mostly carnivorous.

Jeff Grubb said in an interview once that charr have the same maturity rate as humans. As such, their natural lifespans should be roughly the same as humans, not shorter as most believe. Though I don’t think many charr get to their “natural lifespan” – much like norn.

Though of the unnatural deaths we know of, the lifespan would roughly be the same as humans I’d imagine.

Oak.4978:

Another topic I’d like to discuss is the presence or absence of retractable claws in charr.

-snip rest-

I think the model design is more of an animation/modelling issue rather than a change in lore. I mean, it’d be hard to have small claws that retract with the in-game models – not impossible, but a lot more work than worth overall. I think this delves into the realm of “what’s shown isn’t completely accurate” and their claws would technically be smaller.

Dustfinger.9510:

On their age, Pyre Firceshot was a hero and adult. 40 years later his grandcub became another hero. So this at least loosely makes human and charr lifespan comparable.

It should be noted that Kalla was born in 1079 – one year after Eye of the North – so when we saw Pyre in GW1 he already had a son of unknown age. But Kalla was roughly 40 years old when killed by poison.

ah, i didn’t have any specific dates. Good info.

Their natural lifespan – who knows? Their average lifespan is most likely a lot shorter than the other races due to their warlike culture. There are very few old and bald Charr according to two very old Blood Legion veterans in Iron Marshes.

We were told at some point (I can’t recall where for a link, sorry) that all the playable races’ natural lifespans were around the same general length as a human’s in our world, so no strange ageing comparisons. The exception of course is that nobody knows how long the natural lifespan of a sylvari is; 25 years and counting! And I think it was mentioned that asura might live a little longer on average, but not by that much.

In general, you should be able to estimate charr ages as you would for a human character, although as Oglaf says battle deaths must be common.

That would be wrong, Curuniel. The average natural lifespan of a norn is 130 – and they can still be physically active at that point. Eir Stegalkin herself is hinted to be around that age range as well (she was a child when Hoelbrak was being built, and a childhood friend of Kennak the Short who was the first one to build a homestead outside of Hoelbrak down south).

The asura are known to have a 5-10% longer natural lifespan than Tyrian humans, with exceptional lifespans reaching 120.

Centaurs have an unusually long lifespan as well. Ventari dies in 1180 AE, but it’s hinted that when we meet him back in Ventari’s Refuge during Prophecies (in 1072 AE) that he’s already an old (or at least fully mature) centaur. So we’re looking at about an average age of 140, if not more.

Wow, I did not realise Eir was potentially that old. Well, when I can’t find the quote I think I remember reading, there’s always the possibility that I am wrong!

Still, although Eir is remarkably fit for a hundred-and-something-year-old, in fantasy terms the lifespans are all relatively close to human ones – in the sense that there are no elf types who routinely live for hundred of years and reach maturity about the time humans die of old age. It sounds like the process of aging is a more remarkable difference with the norn, although maybe their bodies still deteriorate, it’s just that pretty much all norn and very fit and active! It makes me wonder when a norn child reaches maturity.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think the model design is more of an animation/modelling issue rather than a change in lore. I mean, it’d be hard to have small claws that retract with the in-game models – not impossible, but a lot more work than worth overall. I think this delves into the realm of “what’s shown isn’t completely accurate” and their claws would technically be smaller.

Retractable claws are incompatible with instrument-operating palm design, because retraction mechanism excludes last phalanx of each finger from active use. In addition, it makes it difficult to manipulate the open palm and fingertips.

@Curuniel: I’d presume that norn age at the same comparison rate (that is, they mature slower but at a same percentage rate as humans and the like), but they’re more fit when older because unlike humans, they’re always active trying to make legends. Most norn don’t have retirement plans.

@Rednik: That’s presuming that charr “hands” function the same way feet do. We can tell that’s how their feet are, but if lengthened (an added bone or just longer ones), it may be possible to use the middle phalanx for gripping, rather than the last. Looking at the picture, just put more space between the two paws and allow a greater dip and you’d have enough to grip a good number of things. They’d have more trouble than otherwise, but gripping’s still possible. Now, presume that their hands aren’t shaped the same as paws – you got whole new possibilities!

Oak.4978:

a friend of mine said they would likely have shorter lives than humans being big cats who are mostly carnivorous.

There is no reason this should be true. If your friend is comparing Charr to big cats, then we should be compared to assorted apes which all have much shorter lifespans than Humans. Also, Charr have features not found in cats (e.g., horns, different ears, reversed knees on hindlimbs).

If he/she is talking about being carnivorous, their physiology is presumably well adapted to being carnivorous. You cannot compare them to Humans that eat meat-heavy diets with few plant-based foods. While it is clear Human life span and diet are related, it is unclear exactly how different dietary factors are related to lifespan. Chronic overeating reduces lifespan and assorted nutritional deficiencies (e.g., not getting vitamin B1 or not getting enough lysine) will shorten lifespan. Chronic caloric restriction without the loss of essential vitamins and minerals with increase lifespan. That is all we know for sure.

Otherwise, it gets complicated. For example, poor rural people moving to cities have very different outcomes. They switch to a diet heavier in processed grains, fats and fatty meat. People switching from a grain and vegetable heavy diet tend to maintain their weight and live longer, but people who switch from a more meat-heavy diet (e.g., traditional Inuits moving to cities) tend to get obese very quickly and die young. Furthermore, it has been shown in Humans and rats that how somebody’s grandparents ate the year before their parents were conceived can affect lifespan (cutting it by as much as 30 years in the case of Humans). Yeah, how you eat this year may affect the lifespan of the children of the children you sire or bear next year…

As for maturation rate v lifespan, they are not necessarily closely related in nature. In the plant kingdom especially but also among mollusks there are organisms that grow up over many years or even decades, reproduce once and die. Many animals start aging rapidly at the end of their reproductive lifespan (e.g., mice), while others continue living for a long time afterwards (a process called senescence, seen in for example Humans, many reptiles, fungi). It is possible the Charr start reproducing in their teens, finish in their 30’s and die around 40-45. Or their lifespans could be similar to Humans.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

Also, Charr have features not found in cats (e.g., horns, different ears, reversed knees on hindlimbs).

Those aren’t really knees. They’re the same body joint which acts as our heel – consider most animals to be standing on the balls of their feet/tippy toes (whichever terminology you’d prefer). All animals have this including humans and cats – it’s just that we walk on that part, whereas other animals (not all obviously) don’t.

Just my little nitpick.

Rednik.3809:

Retractable claws are incompatible with instrument-operating palm design, because retraction mechanism excludes last phalanx of each finger from active use. In addition, it makes it difficult to manipulate the open palm and fingertips.

Plenty of people do just fine without the tip of their finger due to amputation (Look at Sir Ranulph Fiennes), with proper evolution and development time I don’t see it’s be difficult to have both a solid grip, and a retraction mechanisms in the same hand design.

The problem is less to do with the mechanism and more to do with the sheer length of the charr “sabres”, the hand just isn’t big enough to retract the entire length of that blade

I agree Ryuujin. Part of what makes claws able to be retracted is their curved shape. They’re not pushing in and pulling out like wolverine’s claws so much as they’re rotating downward. They’re extremely curved, almost circular, because of this rotation.

The charr’s claws look to be both longer and straighter, almost more like the talons of a raptor. If there are still retractible, it could only be partially so. Most likely retractibility would be a vestigial sort of adaptation, deteriorated from lack of need.

Also, thanks Konig for pointing out the leg thing! A lot of people misunderstand the way leg joints work, because they see only the external joints. There’s quite a lot hidden inside a quadruped’s body or in our own feet. I really love these pictures for helping people understand:
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag8/Jenosavel/tuts/01_zpsf605fd40.jpg
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag8/Jenosavel/tuts/05_zpsd60d399c.jpg

Looking at that it should be easy to see how charr, cats, and humans all have the same basic bones and joint directions, just different proportions and places of ground-contact.

I like that last picture. It really shows that there isn’t that much of a difference. Consider how your foot lands when you’re running (for speed). Landing on the balls of your feet for footfalls lets you increase your stride and speed which is exactly how digitigrade run (and walk) normally.

Ryuujin.8236:

The problem is less to do with the mechanism and more to do with the sheer length of the charr “sabres”, the hand just isn’t big enough to retract the entire length of that blade

Who said they had to be retracting all the way?

But their shape and length I just chock up to “lazy design that stops at ‘good enough.’”

Jenosavel.1756:

Also, thanks Konig for pointing out the leg thing!

No problem. It kind of bugs me when folks don’t realize that.

Another possibility re: Claws is that Charr, unlike real-world felines, normally operate with their claws out (if only partially), but retain the muscles to retract those claws (presumably only doing so to protect the claws from damage, or as part of surrender). This would explain why in-game Charr show their claws regularly.

gattsuru.4712:

Another possibility re: Claws is that Charr, unlike real-world felines, normally operate with their claws out (if only partially), but retain the muscles to retract those claws (presumably only doing so to protect the claws from damage, or as part of surrender). This would explain why in-game Charr show their claws regularly.

I’m just going to go with the thought that the way the models of the game were animated, it’d be too much work to make them retractable and still visually noticeable while playing.

If someone wants to RP that they retract their claws, then likely the claws aren’t as long as they actually look in-game…

Or, how I RP them, their claws are more closely akin to hooves in that the claws are a major formation of the bone structure of their hands and literally work as the tips of their fingers. It’s not too far-fetched considering they also have bovine horns.

Cat’s claws, while retractable, are still akin to hooves by that definition. They are, afterall, the final digit of the finger that acts as a finger tip with regards to holding, hence why many people find de-clawing inhumane. That final digit rotates like any other joint would, but the extremely curved hook shape allows it the appearance of slipping backward into the body. Rednik’s image above is good for illustrating that, or if you need more in-motion type diagrams: http://highdarktemplar.deviantart.com/art/Cat-Paw-detail-76436220

I guess the only point of this post was to say, yes! And that interpretation isn’t mutually exclusive with the others in here.

Jenosavel.1756:

I guess the only point of this post was to say, yes! And that interpretation isn’t mutually exclusive with the others in here.

With the exception that you don’t retract hooves. They exist there as much as weapons as they are for protecting the tips of their fingers when running.

gattsuru.4712:

Another possibility re: Claws is that Charr, unlike real-world felines, normally operate with their claws out (if only partially), but retain the muscles to retract those claws (presumably only doing so to protect the claws from damage, or as part of surrender). This would explain why in-game Charr show their claws regularly.

That gives me a funny thought of a scenario where you put a large amount of fear into a charr – even if they say they’re not scared, you can tell they are because they’re retracting their claws.

I do like the idea of them normally operated with claws extended.

Leo G.4501:

If someone wants to RP that they retract their claws, then likely the claws aren’t as long as they actually look in-game…

Or, how I RP them, their claws are more closely akin to hooves in that the claws are a major formation of the bone structure of their hands and literally work as the tips of their fingers. It’s not too far-fetched considering they also have bovine horns.

Thing is that they’re canonically said to have retractable claws in Ghosts of Ascalon, so it wouldn’t be a case of them functioning like a claw-shaped hoof (aka non-retractable claw).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thing is that they’re canonically said to have retractable claws in Ghosts of Ascalon, so it wouldn’t be a case of them functioning like a claw-shaped hoof (aka non-retractable claw).

Then you go with the first in that their visual in-game claws don’t reflect reality…or they have Wolverine (the Marvel character) fingertips.

Since I haven’t read any of the books (not really interested besides the actual lore, not the specific chatter), I just go with the 2nd since that’s what it reflects in (virtual) reality.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thing is that they’re canonically said to have retractable claws in Ghosts of Ascalon, so it wouldn’t be a case of them functioning like a claw-shaped hoof (aka non-retractable claw).

Hoofs and non-retractable claws are different things. Dogs have a non-retractable claws, and no one can say that they have hooves. Retraction mechanism only serves to prevent excessive deterioration of claws.