Guild Wars 2

The Asura have a much greater sense of technology, so if they move out with multiple smaller teams, they can keep the majority of their people and forces in Rata Sum until those teams have set up Wayward Points and Asura Gates to allow them to move massive forces of their golems and some commanders to lead these golems into battle. This would give way to the invasion of Queensdale to occupy Human provinces. However, due to the Golems’ predictability and, while powerful, less versatility, the Humans will be able to hold their own for a while, however due to the near endless amount and continuous flow in of golem forces from Rata Sum, the Humans will not be able to hold out forever and the siege will be hard to break.

With the news of the siege, Humans in Gendarran Fields that are focused on the Charr will be unable to turn to retreat immediately back to Divinity Reach to break the Siege, however instead they will start by burning the northern bridge across the Witherflank River before focusing their forces south to push the Charr into moving around them north into Provern Shore, a narrow pass of land that will make it difficult to move large forces and also a body of water between it and the Vigilant Hills without a bridge, forcing a slow to the Charr, which would have seen it as too hard to break the defense in the southern region due to the more concentrated forces there now. During this time, the Humans would steadily draw back their forces into the Ascalon Settlement and Nebo Terrace to take Guardian’s Pass, letting them take the Shire of Beetlerun as a hold in Queensdale to help their forces back into Divinity Reach while the Charr are busy dealing with the Ascalon Settlement and Nebo Terrace, as well as the Witherflank River of which all the bridges except the south-most bridge(Lionsbridge Expanse) would have been burnt with the final retreat, causing a major slow for the Charr expansion.

After reentering their city via Beetlerun, the newly joined Human forces will help hold the city against the endless golem army of the Asura. The Charr would take the Southern pass of Gendarran Fields into Kessex Hills, at which point they would head north into Queensdale. They would do this instead of heading north into Queensdale to avoid being caught between the Asura and Humans. Instead, though, the Asura will now be caught between the Charr and Humans, in which case the Charr will hold their forces as to wait for the Humans to weaken just enough before taking the Asura from the south, knowing it unwise to wait too long or else the Asura will be able to create a stronghold with their near endless resources from Rata Sum. With this, the Humans will sweep down from the east with the west easily guarded with the mountains, using this opportunity to make a push and retake Shaemoor Garrison as a base and then heading east before sweeping further south-west to force the Asura and Charr into the peninsula then into Claypool, in which the Charr will move their forces to fortify the water-bound land and Claypool while hijacking the Asuran Gates via blitz before they shut them down as to go straight into the front doors of Rata Sum. This method will put them in a dual-stage situation to face both the Human and Asuran city at the same time, using the Asura Gates to feed their supplies from Queensdale to their forces at Rata Sum. This splits the Charr forces along between these, risky yet they wouldn’t wish to lose the chance of holding a path straight to Rata Sum with their supply-line stretched already as it is and not wishing to stretch it even more when going through the forests and jungle of Caledon. They will be put at a draw on both fronts due to the Humans using their advantageous position to sabotage their base and hold their own, as well as the advanced magi-technology of the Asura putting the Charr at wits end on the other end.
From then on, it is a standstill.

Icarus Pherae.4680:

your error is trying to insert logic into a world that is dictated by magic. bodily proportions are meaningless here because Anet has demonstrated a disproportionate amount of strength in the norn for their body size (such as the massive rock being lifted above the head of a norn in the intro).

The “It’s fantasy” handwave can be applied to other races, though. Since we’re comparing humans to norn here – according to the lore, Adelbern was still a hale and hearty war leader at age seventy-nine. We can’t assume that humans fit within what we would regard as human limits – the strongest humans in the Guild Wars universe could well be leaving Olympic weightlifters in the dust. Keep in mind the statement at the end of Nightfall that “the divinity is in (humans)” – even with the silence of the gods, humans in Tyria may be (and, let’s face it, when you consider what GW2 characters can pull off, ARE) empowered well beyond real-world norms.

People are justifying “Norn stronger!” largely on the basis of “Norn bigger!” – if we’re going to take that argument, we should also look at the mechanics of how size affects strength – and the truth is that it’s simply not an exponential or linear relationship. Norn musculature may well be more efficient than humans. One could just as easily conject that it’s less efficient than humans – the norn adaptations to cold that means they can walk around nearly naked in freezing temperatures could well have required compromises. Either way, though, a 50% increase in height seems an incredibly weak basis for a 900% increase in the ability to apply force.

My other point was maybe not emphasized correctly. It wasn’t that I was saying this is the best humanity has to offer so here is their max “power” and magni is the “max” for norn.

Except that our characters aren’t shown as having special powers beyond the reach of other humans (except that they’re Chosen, and the difference between Chosen and regular GW2 people really doesn’t seem to be the difference between mortals and gods or mundanes and superheroes). We see plenty of other humans in GW1 that are equal to or roughly equal to the PCs – the PCs just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and smart enough to figure out appropriate tactics (including teamwork – after all, most of what the PCs did they did in teams of 8 or so, not alone) to achieve their aims. From that, I’d conclude that the potential to reach the power level of the PCs is not all that uncommon among humans – it’s just that not all who have that potential use it to become great heroes.

The most powerful fighters humans have had to offer would be more along the lines of Shiro Tagachi and Turai Ossa who, with the exceptions of builds custom-made to fight them, leave the PCs in the dust. Human history is littered with heroes achieving great feats which are comparable as demonstrations of power to what the PCs managed in teams of eight – the heroes of Tahnnakai Temple and the Ebon Falcons come to mind, and the latter were contemporaries of the PCs. That’s at least a dozen or so humans of the same power level as the PCs (if you throw in Devona and co) arising from Ascalon alone during the time of Guild Wars 1 – hardly rare individuals that only crop up every few generations and who are effectively demigods from the viewpoints of normal humans.

Meanwhile, though, for all those claiming Asgeir’s accomplishment as evidence that the best of the best of the norn are ahead of anyone else… if one was to use your argument, it could then easily be turned around to disqualify Asgeir. In fact, unlike the GW1 PCs, we have hard evidence that no norn since Asgeir has come even close to matching his accomplishment.

humans.
just look at reality, human race destroys and extinguish every think around it.
watch some scifi movies… being alien or charr will not help you escape mankind

Malvado.1460:

humans.
just look at reality, human race destroys and extinguish every think around it.
watch some scifi movies… being alien or charr will not help you escape mankind

Except that humanity in Tyria are very much the underdog, not the facist superpower of WAR: 40K…

To conquer a nation you need to first and foremost conquer their capital (usually their last stand fortress) and subdue any resistance either by genocide or submission. In that line of thoughts this theoretical war cannot have a winner. So my call is no winners but 1 loser.
– Humans – They are in the worst possible situation – they are more or less in the middle of their enemies meaning much of the war will take place on human land, after a while this will break the back of any economy left, and any fortress requires supply to sustain a siege. I believe Divinity reach has no chance to survive without Qeensdale to sustain it. Humans are in a pretty bad shape to begin with so according to me there is little doubt that their kingdom will be torn to shreds, the survivors will be taken into slaver most likely and for sure there will be frequent uprising that will be put down by whoever takes them out.

Norn – i do not see them taking any new territory beyond the Shiverpeaks, although i do not see anyone being able to take any territory from them either. The lack on of organization is actually their biggest strength – small parties can wreck complete chaos in inhospitable conditions. In harsh conditions smaller parties are easier to keep alive, to acquire resources and to sneak around. Anyone that tries to get a hold over the shiverpeaks will need to methodically destroy the entire mountain range in order to clear it out. Basically one need to siege up a mountain – noone we know that stay capability, not even the char.

Charr – superior organization, war-oriented society, expanding ambitions. As with every large army they have one main problem – logistics. Their style of warfare is to squash the enemy either with huge amount of warriors or with sophisticated machinery. Either of those require vast amount of supplies. Against the humans this has worked and i am pretty confident it can work again.

Asura – In most cases whoever has superior technology wins. Someone mentioned the Germans vs Russian tanks in WWII. T-34 was superior to all german tanks below a Panther or a Tiger. So the Truth is that the T-34 was a technological inovation in its own right and for a while the Germans did NOT have a tank to counter it. T-34 was already in production at the time the Panther was still in development. Lets get back to the asura. Their tech is quite impressive and quite diversified areawise. We have personal teleporters, golems, lasers, stasis shields and much much more. In the short run asura are unorganized – yes but considering that times works in their favor (time to organize a competition to find the best possible design for a combat golem, time to set up production facilities, time to get them to full speed) and their relatively far away location any war that does not catch them completely off guard will have the potential to end in their favor.

Now lets examine individual fights:
Char vs the Norn – The shiverpekas are more or less a complete nightmare logistic-wise for ppl and war machines alike. I do NOT believe that even the united char legions have any chance of taking it – this is not the kind of battlefield that the char are accustomed to and on the other hand The Norn are all too familiar with it. This will turn into a meatgrinder for both races with char experiencing more casualties due to the fact they will most likely be the agressor. I see this battle fighting almost exclusively in the Shiverpeaks, i do not forsee the Norn having any interest whatsoever to claim ascalon or any other Char areas. My conclusion is that this war will be a stalemate and a complete waste of resources for both races.

Asura vs Norn – First of all i do not see a reason for this war to happen at all due to neither race having anything the other one wants but i’ll play along. Asura will have similar problems to the one’s the Char would have – logistic nightmares. Although the asura gates and teleportation technology the asura have will ensure that they can get a foothold. Their main problem will be that they will not be able to control any territory in the Mountain except their fortified camps. This on itself is a complete waste of resources and unless those camps are not build around a mine for some precious material i do not see a reason for the asura to keep them.

Char vs Asura – now this is an interesting war. Both races consider themselves superior to all others and this war can be something interesting. Considering the distance between Rata Sum and the westernmost Char possessions one can hardly assume rata sum can be taken by surprise. Such a war will not be a fast one and i do believe that it will take centuries with the potential to decimate entire regions. The crucial part will be whether the Char will be able to choke the asura resource pools. In all fairness i do not see such a thing happen. The asura have the gates and the ability to build their factories where the resources can be. PPl are pointing out that they lost their fight against the destroyers – yes but i do believe they learned a lesson from that. In GW1 there are few examples of factories dedicated to mass production of golems, so we know for sure that those can be assembled if need be. AN asuran golem in not something to be underestimated – a successful design can be replicated easily and in fast numbers if enough resources are available. The Char on the other hand have their war machines as well – formidable too. I forsee a long war of attrition mostly in the territories between Divinity reach and Lion’s arch. With the tide of the War changing multiple times. I do believe though that only the asura have to potential to create a WMD-like weapon. And that moment will secure their victory. A WMD detonating over the Iron citadel will bring great havoc in the Char lines – first a great deal of their leaders will perish at the same time, second the Iron legion’s position will be weakened and the other 2 legions might exploit that to reignite their struggle to dominate.

draxynnic.3719:

People are justifying “Norn stronger!” largely on the basis of “Norn bigger!” – if we’re going to take that argument, we should also look at the mechanics of how size affects strength – and the truth is that it’s simply not an exponential or linear relationship. Norn musculature may well be more efficient than humans. One could just as easily conject that it’s less efficient than humans – the norn adaptations to cold that means they can walk around nearly naked in freezing temperatures could well have required compromises. Either way, though, a 50% increase in height seems an incredibly weak basis for a 900% increase in the ability to apply force.

You are still attempting to apply logic,and our world’s physics/constraints to Tyria, which is interestingly enough what you are criticizing me for. The fact of the matter is that of course we assume humans follow our basic rules because without that we have no point of reference, which is why humans are in any game ever. You are also subscribing to the failed logic of “norn are just big humans” (and you seem to be cherry picking from my posts, and ignoring other points). I will say again there is more evidence in game, such as the MASSIVE sculptures, and architecture of the norn, and the size of their weaponry which they heft as easily as humans carry around things made for their size which suggest the power of the norn. Just because Adelbern was a military leader doesn’t suggest he was charging in on the front lines. We also infer the norn strength from their life history compared to the other races, it wasn’t until the threat of Jormag that they banded together, why? Because they never had to before, even when they had border issues with the charr, we hear nothing of any sort of grouping up in norn other than small groups of “friends”. A norn was a solitary creature, how then can you explain the respect, and stalemate with the charr, a race that has been hounding the organized countries of humanity through any means necessary and succeeding?

I will finish with a quote from the wiki, which is itself taken from movements of the world, which I see as definitive evidence backing my argument:

“Many expected the initial Charr expansion through northern Tyria to become a tide of blood that would crash upon the Shiverpeaks, drowning Charr and Norn alike. The reality proved different. When the Charr reached the foothills, the Norn drove them back with a single crushing blow, completely decimating every warband sent against them.

Although it is certain the Charr could have destroyed the Norn resistance if they but turned their entire army—or even one full legion—to the cause, warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn. These initial skirmishes taught both sides to respect the strength of the other."

Norns are not just stronger because they are bigger. I’ve stated over and over that Norns are not simply bigger humans. They are mythological creatures, closer to stereotypical giants.

Icarus Pherae.4680:

Although it is certain the Charr could have destroyed the Norn resistance if they but turned their entire army—or even one full legion—to the cause, warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn. These initial skirmishes taught both sides to respect the strength of the other."

Just to note this does NOT mean that and entire warband was stopped by 1 Norn.

Nope, but perhaps by a “family unit” of Norns living in a Homestead or something.

it was more meant to mean that the Char respected how strong the individual Norn were (stronger than any race they previously encountered witch clearly includes the humans). I do not think this is any sort of reference to how many the Norn were

Charr wouldn’t be able to defeat the Norn, for several reasons:

1. WAY to many of you guys are stereotyping Norn as the followers of Bear, the “Strong but stupid warrior”. You completely forget the cleverness of the Raven followers, the cunning and stealth of Snow Leopard followers, and the teamwork of the Wolf worshipers (There’s a reason why the only Norn military force is called the Wolfborn). Snow Leapord worshipers could easily be a match for Ash Legion, Bear followers would easily overwhelm the Charr melee infantry, Raven would produce brilliant strategic minds, and Wolves would work together as effectively as a warband.

2. WEATHER. Many of you mention Charr tanks and artillery, but how long could Charr tanks run in the mountains before getting stuck in the snow? A few weeks? Maybe less if there are lots of snowstorms. If real life tanks can get stuck in snow, then primitive Charr tanks surely can. As for artillery, good luck aiming over mountains or in snowstorms. Snow Leopard followers would sniff out your scouts. Finally, Charr aren’t built for cold weather. They’ve never lived anywhere cold. Sure, their fur may delay them from freezing to death, but it would definitely be uncomfortable. Constant discomfort would only have bad effects on morale. Finally, I laugh at the thought of a squad of Charr in a snowstorm. I can already imagine them freaking out as Norn in snow leopard form popped out of the dense, thick rain of snow , picking off them off one by one.

3. Finally, experience! Norn have fought in mountains for thousands of years! Charr have probably never fought a war in the mountains. Nuff’ said.

Because of all of this, I have a really hard time believing that a war between the two would be a piece of cake for the Charr. In fact, unless the Norn were the invaders, the Charr would probably lose.

The Wolfborn aren’t a military force. They’re just a local peace-keeping force in Knut Whitebear’s homestead, Hoelbrak. You never see them outside of Hoelbrak fending off Sons of Svanir or anything else you’d expect of a military force like the Lion Guard or Seraph.

Hoelbrak itself is essentially just Knut’s lodge. The only law there is Knut’s, because it’s his house and he can make the rules. So the Wolfborn can’t really do anything anywhere else – it’s outside of Knut’s house and Knut has no say on what goes on.

Of course, as a hero and descendant of the Dragonrender, Knut has a lot of influence regardless.

I highly doubt the charr will advance across the Shiverpeaks (though the norn who may or may not oppose them) to attack the humans before they take out Ebonhawke and the greatest threat to their nation, through the direct use of an asura gate. And I will bet you 100% that the charr and the humans will stay allied with the asura as long as possible to keep those gates open, making the asura insanely rich during this enterprise. I do have to say though, that is another 250 years of sieges before moving on, the charr honestly have nothing against human ingenuity. They’ve kept up to tech in Ebonhawke with everything that the charr have tried to throw at them, and that is where the humans truly thrive.

I do have to ask, though, in this war where are/what happened to the orders/pact? Because you can believe that they would do whatever is in their power to prevent that from happening.

My money would be on the Charr winning the hypothetical war, but it would be a long, drawn-out affair that could take centuries. They would no doubt go after the Humans first, due to their racial enmity. The Norn likely wouldn’t intervene, due to their cultural nature of confronting challenges by themselves and their long-standing accord with the Charr. Already weakened by infighting and the war against the Centaurs, I predict that Humans would fall within 50 – 100 years*.

Next, the Charr would go after the Asura, to conquer and take over the Gate network for its strategic and economic value. This war will probably be the Charr’s longest and bloodiest, as the Asura have the advantage in technology and disposable shock troops with golems and other magical constructs. However, Asura territory is much smaller than the Charr’s, meaning that their population and overall resources are likely also less. In a war of attrition, the Charr will probably come out on top in the end.

Finally, the Charr can turn their attention to the Norn. The Norn have the advantage of home terrain, plus the fact that the Charr’s war machines are not likely to function very well in the frigid mountains. Cold causes technology to malfunction, and the snowy, rugged terrain means that tanks and other war machines are severely restricted in where they can go. The Norn can harry the Charr with all manner of guerilla attacks, then retreat to where the Charr can’t follow. Unfortunately, the Norn are not very strategically minded. During Jormag’s assault, the Norn just threw themselves at him piece-meal, instead of forming a united army. It’s likely that they’ll do the same thing against the Charr. The Norn could always adapt, however, so they might succeed in grinding the Charr down to a stalemate for several decades.

*It’s worth noting that, as smart as the Asura are, they will no doubt realise very quickly that if the Charr are not stopped, they will be next on the hit list. So I fully expect the Asura to break off diplomatic relations with the Charr if they declared full-scale war on humanity and support the Humans instead. With Asura military and logistical support, the Humans might actually defeat the Charr in all-out war.

Icarus,

I never said that the norn weren’t, on average, stronger in terms of physical strength. I was objecting to the baseless supposition that norn had ten times the strength of humans, and applying some logic to what it would be.

You’re claiming that the norn are stronger than their size would suggest by describing the feats of the norn. Well, point 1: Many of the wonders of the ancient world like the Pyramids and the Colossus of Rhodes were made by ordinary humans, without magic and with more primitive technology than that available to the norn. So we can strike that one out. As for the size of norn weaponry – most of the norn weaponry I’ve seen seems to be about the same size and mass, relative to their size, and human weapons made by humans. So that suggests that, when it comes to strength, scaling up human size to norn size is a reasonable approximation. I’m not claiming it’s a perfect one, but one in which I suspect the error is measured as a percentage rather than as a factor of two or higher. If the norn were truly ten times as strong as humans, wouldn’t we expect norn to be wielding weapons of of at least seven or eight times the mass?

The only point that I saw that isn’t covered by these observations is the example given of a norn lifting a massive stone in the intro video. I haven’t seen that, despite looking for it on youtube (I’m currently lacking in slots, and I’m not spending real money or buying gems while the price is high just to look through it now) – it might be that it’s in a different set of biography choices. But that’s where my point about humans not necessarily being within the human limits here came in – norn don’t have a monopoly on amazing feats, and we’ve seen humans in the world of Tyria performing feats that would be outside human abilities in the real world. As an example, the longjump world record is currently under 9 metres, yet human warriors without any magic, beyond whatever might be inherent in being a human in the world, can Savage Leap a similar distance without a runup.

The italicised point is important – while the gods may be silent, Lyssa’s speech at the end of Nightfall implies that there’s a little bit of divinity in every human. That’s something that real-world humans don;t have, and provides a simple reason why humans that fully utilise that potential might possess strength and other attributes that we would regard as superhuman, while the humans of Tyria regard it as simply impressive.

Sure, mechanics don’t always match lore – but it’s desirable in a game world for the mechanics to at least be moderately compatible. And what the mechanics are saying is that warriors of every race top out as roughly equal. While other factors such as agility can play into that, I don’t think ArenaNet would create lore that is so out of whack with mechanics that they would claim that a typical warrior of one of the largest races has ten times the strength of a typical warrior of one of the middle-weight races.

With all that in mind, I think it is reasonable to estimate the relative strength of the norn based on relative size. Yes, there may be fantasy-setting related stuff that influences this, but this could easily be a zero-sum game or even a leveling influence.

Our player Norns are seriously underpowered compared to actual lore. There is no way they’d be on equal terms with a Human, let alone an Asura!

You can’t base the relative strengths of the races by in-game mechanics. That’s ridiculous.

And no, it is still not reasonable to estimate strength by basing it on the size of the Norn. How many times do I have to say that they are not big Humans? They’re giants of mythological strength. Aesgir knocked a fang out of Jormag’s skull with a single blow.

draxynnic.3719:

The only point that I saw that isn’t covered by these observations is the example given of a norn lifting a massive stone in the intro video. I haven’t seen that, despite looking for it on youtube (I’m currently lacking in slots, and I’m not spending real money or buying gems while the price is high just to look through it now) – it might be that it’s in a different set of biography choices.

Here. At 1:25.

“My strength is a gift from the Spirits of the Wilds. With it, I can hold back the tide. I can move mountains!”

Yet no other Norn could, so it was the specific person that did so not an example of the height that the entire race can achieve. It’s like saying that humans can take out tanks alone by looking at a superhuman(hypothetical mutant). Sure, Norn are tough, brave, yada yada. But still, you can’t say that Norn are better than humans as a whole. You wouldn’t say the Norn could beat the Asura just because they’re bigger, right? Each race has their own racial qualities that give them their own strength. The Humans, for instance, still have remnants of their gods’ powers, as shown by many priests and human elite skills. Charrs have militaristic ability and technology(tanks, tanks, more tanks) in mass number while Asura have a future magic-technology(portals, lasers, robots) with a slower production rate than Charr. Norn have their spirits to empower them along with their larger structure and sylvari(while not really in this war) have a massive “collective consciousness” to a certain extent.

Well, you can say that. In a fist fight, the odds of an asura defeating a norn are infinitely close to zero. The norn are clearly a physically strong, if not the strongest, playable race.

Certainly other races do other things better than the norn – as you said, charr have an organized military and better manufacturing capability, asura have their magitek, sylvari have… whatever it is sylvari do, and humans are really good at blowing up their own cities. So every race has their own specialty.

However, logically, if all five (or four, since we’re ignoring the sylvari in this topic) races got into a fight, one of them would eventually win. Or there would be a draw. Or they’d all die out. But for the sake of argument, let’s assume one would win.

To remove as many variable as possible, imagine the following scenario: the standing army or nearest equivalent of each race is gathered into a corner of a large open space. A huge flag is raised in the middle, then lowered, and the war begins. Think of it like a RTS game with four players, each a different race, none of them on the same side. Who wins?

The humans would be wiped out by the charr, whom would utilize a treaty with the centaurs to further weaken humans, the charr would then enslave remaining humans, upon seeing this the asura would begin building Nuclear weapons. This would prove unfortunate when like everything else the Asurans build, it blows its self up immediately upon completion. Wiping out the asura due to catastrophic explosion. The Norns would ally with the Koda and a few other minor races (the grenth that survived possibly) and then proceed to make a grab for near by territory. This would remain at a standstill for a long time.

I’d love to be a fly on the wall in Lion’s Arch.

Oglaf.1074:

Our player Norns are seriously underpowered compared to actual lore. There is no way they’d be on equal terms with a Human, let alone an Asura!

You can’t base the relative strengths of the races by in-game mechanics. That’s ridiculous.

And no, it is still not reasonable to estimate strength by basing it on the size of the Norn. How many times do I have to say that they are not big Humans? They’re giants of mythological strength. Aesgir knocked a fang out of Jormag’s skull with a single blow.

I’ve already addressed that:

First, cite where ArenaNet have said that the norn have physical strength substantially greater than would be implied by scaling them up. They’re different in culture, and in the ability to take animal form. Nowhere does it say they have ‘mythological strength’.

Second, Asgeir is not a suitable example of norn, err, norms. He had the direct assistance of the Spirits of the Wild – comparing his action to a typical norn’s action could be like comparing a human under the effect of the Balthazar idol to a normal human. It’s a major plot point that no norn since Asgeir has even been able to scratch the tooth. Furthermore, we don’t have any details of how that happened – it’s possible he had further assistance, such as a weapon made out of a dragon’s body part (which has been shown to be substantially more effective against them).

If we’re to consider the upper-limit of the norms… we see a human defeating the norn champion in Guild Wars 1. Elias has claimed that the PCs are not representative of human norms even at the top end, but I can show enough other examples from the time of the PCs to show that they are. As opposed to Asgeir, whose accomplishment as stated above has not even been approached by any norn since, and whose accomplishment is shrouded in enough mystery that we can’t say what assistance he may have had to perform above his own limits. If the “once in a century freak” card is to be played on anyone, Asgeir is clearly the prime candidate.

The rock-lifting shown in the intro is the best evidence there is for the claim, but even this may be explained by a vision of what the norn character wants to be rather than what (s)he actually is. More importantly, though, once we start playing the mythologically strong card, that card extends to other races as well. Human heroes are not confined by real-world norms either – their top-end warriors are better comparable to the knights of Arthurian legend who slew dragons and arm-wrestled giants or the heroes of Greek myth than to the historical knights that fought in the hundreds Year War or the Crusades.

Consider that in the CoF story mode we see Logan, lying prone (a disadvantageous position for holding weight), catching (meaning not just opposing simple weight, but also existing momentum) a fully-grown charr in heavy armour and hauling him back up. I’d put it to you that nobody in real life with Logan’s physique (musculature, but hardly an Olympic weightlifter either) would be able to repeat that feat, and in terms of proportional strength required is probably as impressive as the norn lifting the stone in the video (keeping in mind that that norn was doing so in ideal conditions for weightlifting) – except that we know with absolute certainty that Logan did perform the feat he was shown performing.

Now, the norn are definitely stronger – but with the above, nothing indicates that they are as much stronger than what would be expected from a comparison of size as you two have claimed. And the average norn is definitely more powerful than the average member of other races – because the norn are adventurers by culture, and even the typical charr probably does not meet the challenges faced on a regular basis than the typical norn. But for those members of other races who throw themselves fully into the adventuring life, whether it is through greater dexterity, magical or technomagical augmentation, or other factors, the boundaries appear close enough that the approximation that all races have the same potential is not a lore-breaking one.

Because if it was, then we’d see that reflected in NPCs – we’d see norn NPCs demonstrating substantially greater strength than other races and being better fighters than the PCs are capable of being. But, apart from norn empowered by Jormag and thus outside the typical norms, we don’t see any evidence of norn being intrinsically better fighters than members of other races. There’s a point at which you can say that the mechanics don’t reflect the lore, and there’s a point at you’re simply refusing to believe the evidence in front of your own eyes.

Again you’re using game-play balance as a counter-argument against lore.

It doesn’t work that way.

They can’t have Norn NPCs being stronger just as they can’t have Norn PCs being stronger. The Cave Troll in Ascalonian Catacombs could probably single-handedly wipe out all of Hoelbrak if he was set loose inside, but that has nothing to do with lore.

Well, Ebonhawke has hold off the charr for a long time, and the humans can keep using traditional catapults and cannons from behind any walls, together with all their huge spellcaster forces, which charr lack.

Similarly to the humans, the norn have walls, too, which are none other than the mountains, and their own powerful magic, the shamans. They could charge a line of tanks and arrive to them without many problems.

As for asura, don’t understimate them. In a war, they would go all Inquest, and we know well how far they can go with mutants, robots and mass-destruction weaponry.

The sylvari are probably the weakest, but just because they’re too young to have the required numbers to participate on a war.

So yeah, I wouldn’t say the charr are “supreme” enough. Their tanks and technology aren’t real additions, just replacements for the now rogue Flame Legion.

Oglaf.1074:

Again you’re using game-play balance as a counter-argument against lore.

It doesn’t work that way.

They can’t have Norn NPCs being stronger just as they can’t have Norn PCs being stronger. The Cave Troll in Ascalonian Catacombs could probably single-handedly wipe out all of Hoelbrak if he was set loose inside, but that has nothing to do with lore.

Mechanics are intended to at least make a believable approximation of lore. Basilisks have a gaze attack because it is part of the lore that basilisks have a gaze attack, otherwise they wouldn’t have a gaze attack. If it was part of the lore that top-end norn were more powerful than top-end heroes of other characters, we would expect to see said norn – even if they have to be NPCs – out in the world performing deeds that mere humans, charr, sylvari and asura could not and generally showing off. These are norn, after all – a norn who truly is better than the best any other race has to offer is not going to be quiet about it.

Our primary source for lore is what we see in-game. Yes, sometimes we have to take a grain of salt where it comes to the precise mechanics… but the ingame story is the very first source when it comes to lore. And the ingame story does not show the best of the best of norn heroes being clearly better than the best of the best of other races.

What the story does show is that the average is quite a bit higher up. Norn hearts and story steps do not involve civilians, noncombatants, or damsels in distress that passively wait for heroes to help them – every norn from the children up sees themself as a hero and proactively seeks to achieve their goals, viewing the PCs as helpful volunteers rather than saviours. This is the true strength of the norn, shown again and again in hearts and story steps.

Not your claim that the best of the norn are inherently better than the best of other races, a claim that is backed by only two dubious data points – the greatest hero of the norn that is either a once-in-centuries outlier or who was placed in circumstances that would have allowed a member of another race to have achieved the same, and an image in an introduction video which could have been a fantasy of the PCs ambition, or which, given that other races can also perform feats beyond what would be expected from their frames, may not actually be as impressive, comparatively speaking, as it looks.

TL;DR: If it was ArenaNet’s intention that the best of the best among the norn were clearly superior to the best of the best of other races, even if it wasn’t possible for norn PCs to reach that level, they could have shown it. They didn’t. Therefor, there is no evidence that the best of the best of the norn are substantially greater than the greatest heroes of other races. QED.

I love how you’re just waving away the intro cinematic which is clearly there to introduce the Norns as a whole. You don’t think there is any sort of symbolism in that Norn warrior lifting that huuuuge boulder? You refusing to recognize the evidence there is does not automatically make it false or otherwise non-existent.

Also best? When did I ever use the term best? I’m talking about physical strength here. The Norns are stronger than the other races. A Norn is far stronger than a Human of equal size would be because Norns are not simply “large Humans”; they are beings of mythological strength. So when it comes to feats requiring nothing but raw physical strength a Norn would trump a single Charr/Human/Asura/Sylvari with ease i.e Norns are stronger than the other races.

How are you not getting this?

QED… whatever that means.

Oglaf.1074:

A Norn is far stronger than a Human of equal size would be because Norns are not simply “large Humans”; they are beings of mythological strength.

I’ve asked a couple of times for you to cite this. Please do so if you want this to be a valid argument.

In the meantime:

As I’ve already stated, Rytlock is stronger than Eir. Yes, Eir is a woman, but sexual dimorphism is not going to bridge a gap as large as you claim. Secondly, you may note I’ve made an argument that does account for the rock-lifting if it is a true event – Logan being able to catch Rytlock in CoF despite being in very poor circumstances to do so. Your assumption that humans are as weak as in real life does not carry weight – unlike Logan in CoF.

PS: Quod erat demonstrandum – a Greek phrase denoting the completion of a proof.

The novels are a much better way of settling this than debating about game mechanics. Drax, do you have the passage where Rytlock is said to be stronger than Eir? That would help things.

I also recall several moments in ‘Ghosts of Ascalon’ showing Norn strength. Gyda breaks open a solid door with one blow after Dougal says it was impossible to open, Gullik picks up and throws Ember (a fully grown charr) with one hand to stop her from fighting, things like that.

Hrrmn. On a quick flick through, I couldn’t find it. I thought it was in one of the planning stages – possibly being the reason why Rytlock got the spear from Kralky’s spine – but Glint simply hands it to him without an explanation.

Your memories from GoA are also off, however. The time Gullik threw Ember wasn’t one-handed, but the way it’s described (chapter 9) has Gullik on his back kicking up with his legs to throw Ember away – a maneuver that would have allowed him to use most of his strength, and which would work for one human fighting another. In the case of the stuck door, Gyda transformed into snow leopard from – not the strongest available to the norn, but still a form assumed to augment her strength. There’s also the distinction that Gyda was a warrior and Dougal a thief – thus Gyda would likely have been physically stronger even if the two were of the same race – and Dougal didn’t really want to get through the door at the time. (It’s also amusing, if not necessarily all that telling, to note that assuming snow leopard form is effectively taking a form that’s closer to the charr.)

Looking at the books, though, we can get a sequence of comparisons. Logan gets physical with Rytlock a few times, and while Rytlock is clearly the stronger in physical terms, it’s not an overwhelming advantage. We then have Ember wrestling with Gullik, and holding her own until the aforementioned flip-maneuver. Now, if we assume that having roughly double the strength consists of a decisive advantage in a wrestling match – which seems reasonable unless one side is using a non-strength-based technique, which doesn’t seem to be the case in the books – then that puts Rytlock at roughly double the strength of Logan, and Gullik at roughly double the strength of Ember – if we handwave away charr sexual dimorphisim and the likelihood that warriors will naturally be stronger than other professions, that puts Gullik at roughly four times the strength of Logan.

I just thought of 1 more point why Charr will win. Who is the richest person in all of known Tyria? The Charr that own the BLTC of course.

But would that Charr wouldn’t fight.

There would be too much profit in staying neutral and selling arms and equipment to all the races!

One could also argue that in a in-game universe where there is total war between the races, the BLTC would never have been able to exist in the first place. At best it would be a local Charr merchant guild.

FateOmega.9601:

I just thought of 1 more point why Charr will win. Who is the richest person in all of known Tyria? The Charr that own the BLTC of course.

No, it would obviously be the asura who own the gate network and waypoint that everyone uses for transportation.

I also want to point out something that everyone seems to be forgetting when it comes to the Sylvari. There are more Pale Trees, at the very least one more. There was a cave with many seeds like the one that sprouted the Pale Tree, and thanks to Malyck’s story we know that at least one is producing Sylvari. With multiple trees producing Sylvari at the rate of the Pale Tree, they could easily be an infestation that no one can get rid of.

Gaudrath.6725:

Oh yeah, and to put things into perspective. A single Norn managed to do what it took the combined might of the Pact to replicate – hurt an Elder Dragon.

Knocking out a tooth and KILLING an elder dragon are not the same thing. I have no idea where your logic is coming from here. Not to mention that there were Norn IN the Pact, so you’re comparing one Norn to a bunch of Norn and other guys. This entire statement is flawed.

Oglaf.1074:

Aesgir Dragonrender knocked a tooth out of Jormag’s friggin’ skull with a normal blow for crying out loud.

And here we come again to this. With the norm of Norn boasting, don’t you think this story seems a little fishy? I mean, to me it seems like the entirety of this story being true is about as likely as Jormag tripping, knocking the tooth out from falling on a tree, and Aesgir saw an opportunity to have an eternal legend all to himself. Since when has a single Norn accomplished anything close to this? Was he SuperNorn?
No.
If even the few prodigies among Norn could manage this, there wouldn’t even be Elder Dragons anymore.

Oglaf.1074:

A Norn could tear a golem apart with his bare hands. No, a Norn child could!

With Norn children being roughly the size of humans and made of flesh and bone and the average golem being much larger and made of STEEL… Sure thing, go for it. This logic makes total sense.

Oglaf.1074:

Norns are not simply “large Humans”; they are beings of mythological strength_.

You keep saying this without any kind of evidence. A norn lifted a big rock? That’s cool. A golem can lift a big rock.
They are not mythical creatures, they are simply a big, intelligent race. And until you provide any evidence for this, you’re doing nothing more than planting your hands over your ears and yelling, “NO NO NO”

True, Norn are immensely strong. No one’s questioning that they are physically the strongest race. But to go as far as to say that they’re essentially supernatural and could take on entire warbands by themselves without breaking a sweat is ridiculous. Jora had that mentality if you recall, always trying to hunt everything by herself. How’d those solo hunts work out for her?
Norn have some great stories and trophies, but as far as most of these great stories (which are handed down by word of mouth by generations of adoring fans, by the way. That never blows things out of propotion) being even 50% true? I wouldn’t trust these heroes farther than I could throw them.

There is evidence, you’re just ignoring it. It is ironic you should bring up the point of acting like a little child with his fingers in his ears.

Oglaf.1074:

There is evidence, you’re just ignoring it. It is ironic you should bring up the point of acting like a little child with his fingers in his ears.

What evidence? Ignoring what? If you have it, post it. Up until now, you haven’t posted any evidence despite being asked several times. The closest thing is that you mentioned the Norn lifting a big rock, and Aesgir punching Jormag’s tooth out (which I already gave my two cents for).
You made the claim, the burden of proof is yours.

I believe the Aesgir story is true, I think he was a norn prodigy, but to have all Norn do this as Oglaf suggests is quite silly.

It’s equally likely that Aesgir could’ve enchanted himself with exceptional magic or roll a massive boulder off the tallest mountain onto Jormag’s face. I will even allow that if he did strike the dragon with only his sword that it was some extremely powerful force of will at the right spot. Basically, all the conditions that would allow such a thing to happen, happened for Aesgir.

However, I don’t think the average norn can perform dental work on even a normal dragon. I’m sure they can all lift at least a car, but I don’t think they can take down entire warbands alone.

As for my two cents on the overall war: the humans still have the Six Gods. We don’t see their acts all the time, but we do know that prayers are answered, they allow their avatars and doggies to be used in battle. Basically the Gods are an X factor that the other races cannot fathom. How can you consider the possibility that Balthazaar or Kormir could rally a retreating human army and completely turn the tide? What if Melandru decides to turn an army into trees or Grenth has a million undead minions drag humanities foes into the Underworld. Lyssa could make another army devour itself by making them all into illusions of their worst foes. And then Dwayna could just insta-rez all the humans. Point is, the gods play favorites and they love worship. So if one human prays hard enough and gets in dire straits, a god could come down and wreck any army.

Also mechanics and lore, while often are seen to go hand in hand, should not be considered here. The basilisk example from draxynnic’s post is a poor example because basilisks petrify, and there’s really no way to get unpetrified. Once you’re stone, you’re stone.

The lore in the novels is a better source for this sort of thing. In Edge of Destiny, Eir lifts a 500+ pound statue of basalt around Rata Sum and Lion’s Arch, including up and down stairs.

Unfortunately, now I can’t really explain how Logan saved Rytlocke, but superhuman feats are never unheard in the real world either.

As far as game balance goes, I think player imagination has to come into play. No way a charr and an asura warrior has the same strength. The asuras wear power armor or rely on striking weak points to compensate. Also, if you got hit by a hammer, you’re going down, even in the books if someone from DE got smacked by something it knocked them off balance, so game mechanics are unreliable to rationalize lore

Sieg.8439:

What evidence? Ignoring what? If you have it, post it.

Gregorius.1024:

The lore in the novels is a better source for this sort of thing. In Edge of Destiny, Eir lifts a 500+ pound statue of basalt around Rata Sum and Lion’s Arch, including up and down stairs.

There have been multiple posts by other posters also pointing out great Norn feats of strength in the novels/extended lore.

draxynnic.3719:

Your memories from GoA are also off, however. The time Gullik threw Ember wasn’t one-handed, but the way it’s described (chapter 9) has Gullik on his back kicking up with his legs to throw Ember away – a maneuver that would have allowed him to use most of his strength, and which would work for one human fighting another.

No, my memory is fine – I was referring to chapter 11, actually, when Ember and Riona start throwing down. Ember knocks Riona down with a “swat”, and prepares a blow with her claws that “would rip Riona’s armor off” – impressive for an Ash Legion charr. But then Gullik grabs Ember by the scruff of her neck and throws her across the room with one hand, then – when she jumps at him – Gullik knocks Ember off her feet with one blow.

It also has an interesting, though only suggestive, quote from Soulkeeper, who says of the band going into Ascalon that they “need more help than even a single norn can provide”. So obviously the strength of a single norn is respected even by the charr.

There’s a simple explanation for the basilisk’s petrifying gaze being temporary – the magic wears off. Heck, the beam resembles a mesmeric effect, so it may not actually be true petrification, but one of those illusions so powerful the subject believes it, like Jennah’s glamour at the end of Edge of Destiny (which, incidentally, also generated an illusion of petrification so strong that the subjects couldn’t move).

500 pounds is within the bounds of my estimates. Rytlock in full armour probably weighs at least that much, and in fact, catching him when he was already falling probably required more force than it would take to simply lift him (since his existing momentum needed to be arrested as well as opposing gravity). Nobody’s claimed that the norn aren’t stronger on average than other races (well, the jury might be out on charr), the objection is to Oglaf’s claim that the norn-human difference is an order of magnitude.

@Elias: I just went and looked at that chapter. The quotes are:

“With a sharp yank, he hauled her back so hard that Dougal wondered if Ember’s head might separate from her shoulders”

“He brought his free arm around and smacked her across the snout hard enough to knock her from her feet.”

No mention of one-handed tosses across the room, merely the equivalent of grabbing someone by the collar and hauling them backwards, and nothing that a strong human couldn’t have done to another human.

Logan saving Rytlock was deus ex machina taken to the very extreme…

Oglaf, I would just stop trying mate, you can’t convince the intentionally dense.

I dont get why people think the sylvari are an easy threat. We know LITTLE about the capabilities of the Pale Tree and others like it. For all we know if it was ever in danger it erect a powerful barrier, perhaps its roots spread throughout the tarnished coast allowing it the power to make the area extremely hard to trespass on.

Theirs also the problem of the nightmare court their abilities to corrupt certain plants and animals.

Hell we dont even know how many pale trees their are and if the posses the same abilities.

Just my 2¢

Sithaco.4673:

FateOmega.9601:

The norn will be the last to go. Tough as they are, they would not last under the firepower of the charr which has taken over the tech of the humans and asura.

1. I don’t think the Charr would be smart enough to take over the Asura tech.
2. What about the massive amount of damage that would have been dealt towards the Charr through invading the Humans (who would hold out against the Charr from Divinities Reach’s walls) and the Asura (with the massive amount of golems, and other crazy things the Asura have).
3. If I am interpreting you correctly, the Charr (in your scenario) would be the offensive? Anyway, the Norn are used to the coldness of the Shiverpeaks, whereas the cold would damper the Charr’s spirits, and we all know that moral is a important thing in war cough world v world cough.

1. Charr is just as smart as the asuras. The only thing that differs them is that the asuras belive in the eternal alcemy and the charr rely in the power of iron and steel. I dont know wich one is the most powerfull but looking at history the charr is the most battle hardened race of them all. And if they would just put their brightest enginners to it they would probebly not only understand the asuran tech, they would probebly improve upon it.
2.The charr already obliterated the humans once. The humans in divinitys reach would be an mild breaze compared to the people of old ascallon.
3. Charrs have fur Duuh!

A lot of animals have fur but would never survive in the arctic.

Like Lions.