Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

Well, we haven’t seen the big tanks (the ones with the massive rear wheel at the back) in action, although they seem, at best, unsuited to anything but a siege (armament fixed forward, and that big rear wheel that from the design seems to be carrying most of the weight probably bogs down at the drop of a hat).

The small ones technically aren’t even tanks, but primitive armoured cars armed with light howitzers. Far from invulnerable, particularly when there are prople around who can throw fireballs and lightning bolts.

I agree, although I would liken the smaller vehicles more to mobile artillery support than armoured cars.

I’m still waiting for when we will see “Seraph Casters” and the like. Human’s are supposed to have the highest capacity for casting magic so I’m not sure why you wouldn’t at least have a few to act as walking artillery.

BlackGhostz.2483:

Just looking at tactical situations the Humans have the best chance to actually win any war based on current land holdings. The Charr have no viable way to attack DR they would literally have to march through mountains and other armies just to even reach the outlying human territories. And it’s not like the Charr could go around the mountains because it would because they would have to cross even more dangerous territory.

But once again and you even hear this in game. The moment the majority of the Charr army leaves Ascalon the ghosts will sack that territory if the branded, orges, or human bandits don’t beat them to it.

How would the humans attack if the charr can’t?

Dustfinger.9510:

BlackGhostz.2483:

Just looking at tactical situations the Humans have the best chance to actually win any war based on current land holdings. The Charr have no viable way to attack DR they would literally have to march through mountains and other armies just to even reach the outlying human territories. And it’s not like the Charr could go around the mountains because it would because they would have to cross even more dangerous territory.

But once again and you even hear this in game. The moment the majority of the Charr army leaves Ascalon the ghosts will sack that territory if the branded, orges, or human bandits don’t beat them to it.

How would the humans attack if the charr can’t?

“Magic”

Although in this case that might be what would happen lol

Yeah, anything big in this game honestly is a target not an asset. One might look at a big Charr or Norn in heavy armor and think wow how could a puny human stand up to that? But in reality in this game Skritt and Asura warriors can go toe to toe with enemies much larger than them.

And that was actually a little funny what someone else pointed out about the Charr. Since they took Ascalon city what has happened to them? 1/4 of their army and arguably their most powerful single legion has broken off. As of right now the ghosts are slowly but surely giving them heavy casualties. A dragon pretty much claimed a huge chunk of their territory. And not another elder dragon has made a presence in their lands.

Not to mention IF the Charr ever went to war with the humans Ebonhawke has access to a pandora’s box of sorts. The gate to the crystal desert is all that is keeping either an undead army or a massive army of branded from getting into the Fields of Ruin. If Ebonhawke were to face a massive attack from the Charr the Humans would surely open the gates and retreat to DR through the Asura gate.

Dustfinger.9510:

BlackGhostz.2483:

Just looking at tactical situations the Humans have the best chance to actually win any war based on current land holdings. The Charr have no viable way to attack DR they would literally have to march through mountains and other armies just to even reach the outlying human territories. And it’s not like the Charr could go around the mountains because it would because they would have to cross even more dangerous territory.

But once again and you even hear this in game. The moment the majority of the Charr army leaves Ascalon the ghosts will sack that territory if the branded, orges, or human bandits don’t beat them to it.

How would the humans attack if the charr can’t?

Look at the map and I’m not trying to sound like I have too much bias.

Ebonhawke is in Charr territory and it has a portal that is directly connected to the human capital city. The humans have a way to attack the Charr in Ascalon but if the Charr wanted to attack the humans they would have to cross major ground. And this would be impossible without attacking Ebonhawke first which for obvious reasons would not go down without major losses. At that point the Charr army would hardly even be handle internal threats.

And then something else is that people forget that Lions Arch and the Vigil Keep sit in human lands. The Charr would not be able to just march into the GF and attack the Ascalonian settlement without intervention from Lions Arch especially.

The Charr have an impressive army but right now they lack the power to do much besides defense and support.

BlackGhostz.2483:

But in reality in this game Skritt and Asura warriors can go toe to toe with enemies much larger than them.

This is really an issue of game mechanics. In the lore, size matters.

BlackGhostz.2483:

Look at the map and I’m not trying to sound like I have too much bias.

Ebonhawke is in Charr territory and it has a portal that is directly connected to the human capital city. The humans have a way to attack the Charr in Ascalon but if the Charr wanted to attack the humans they would have to cross major ground. And this would be impossible without attacking Ebonhawke first which for obvious reasons would not go down without major losses. At that point the Charr army would hardly even be handle internal threats.

And then something else is that people forget that Lions Arch and the Vigil Keep sit in human lands. The Charr would not be able to just march into the GF and attack the Ascalonian settlement without intervention from Lions Arch especially.

The Charr have an impressive army but right now they lack the power to do much besides defense and support.

There are a few things worth noting here.

-The only reason Ebonhawke survived the first war is because Krytas strategy was to send waves of it’s own troops into the meat grinder, simply to keep the charr at bay. And that was without winning any major battles, as described in Sea of sorrows. And even then, the charr had already scouted and were planning an attack on the capitol of kryta, which happened to be in LA at the time.

-LA and Vigils keep aren’t human fortifications. It would be interesting what would happen with them.

-A lot would depend on what the asura decide to do with the gates, since in this scenario, they are also contenders for dominance.

I want battle mages kitten it. Dump’em on Ebonhawkes walls and watch the invading legions get pounded with meteor showers.

OO, just remembered something that may effect the discussion on the norn. In Sea of Sorrows, when LA was about surrounded by Kryta, Cobiah Marriner was weighing his options and one of them was getting norn sell-swords to fight for LA.

The problem with that was whether he would be able to get enough in time. So while the norn may not realistically be able to beat everybody, whoever decides to go against them is going to be in a severely weakened position. If they even beat them. Since it has only been confirmed that the charr could have done it. Keep in mind that any two we pit against each other are also going to be getting attacked by the others. And attacking others.

It’s all a numbers game ultimately and size, strength, and fighting prowess are just combat multipliers which are not unlimited and have limitations.

Lostwingman.5034:

draxynnic.3719:

Well, we haven’t seen the big tanks (the ones with the massive rear wheel at the back) in action, although they seem, at best, unsuited to anything but a siege (armament fixed forward, and that big rear wheel that from the design seems to be carrying most of the weight probably bogs down at the drop of a hat).

The small ones technically aren’t even tanks, but primitive armoured cars armed with light howitzers. Far from invulnerable, particularly when there are prople around who can throw fireballs and lightning bolts.

I agree, although I would liken the smaller vehicles more to mobile artillery support than armoured cars.

I’m still waiting for when we will see “Seraph Casters” and the like. Human’s are supposed to have the highest capacity for casting magic so I’m not sure why you wouldn’t at least have a few to act as walking artillery.

I think the mission parameters for the smaller ones are similar to the early marks of the Panzer IV with the short-barreled 75mm – suppression of enemy infantry with light HE. They don’t seem to have the range or firepower of true mobile artillery.

The closest real-life analogue may be the Sdkfz 234/3, although that’s still a bit more modern and heavily armoured.

On Seraph casters – blame ArenaNet being lazy regarding generic friendly NPCs. That said, while humans have the potential, it’s a minority that actually reach that potential. I’m pretty sure they’ve been confirmed to exist, probably in a larger ratio to common soldiers than the allied charr legions except possibly Ash, but as in GW1 the bulk of most human armies are archers and melee types.

The Seperatists are probably more representative of what the actual ratio is in a human military force (bandits are skewed by the influence of what sort of people become bandits, while the Seperatists are probably mostly Ebon Vanguard deserters).

Dustfinger.9510:

This is really an issue of game mechanics. In the lore, size matters.

-The only reason Ebonhawke survived the first war is because Krytas strategy was to send waves of it’s own troops into the meat grinder, simply to keep the charr at bay. And that was without winning any major battles, as described in Sea of sorrows. And even then, the charr had already scouted and were planning an attack on the capitol of kryta, which happened to be in LA at the time.

To the first: Something people need to keep in mind is that what we tend to see in game mechanics is the exceptional individuals – powerful heroes and those that can actually present some kind of credible threat to them. Typically, my impression is that between size and lifestyle, norn are on average the best warriors, then charr, then humans, then asura (there isn’t really a lot of information to judge sylvari on, but they’re probably about the same level as humans on average). PCs are outliers, but norn PCs are a little less of an outlier than PCs of other races.

To the second: That’s not the impression I had. Sea of Sorrows referred to Krytan forces achieving gains in the lands around Ebonhawke at least at one point – but neither side achieved anything decisive.

It’s interesting to speculate what might have come of that scouting mission if Zhaitan hadn’t risen – but it’s worth keeping in mind that Zhaitan’s rise did a lot more damage to Kryta than the Dragonbrand did to the charr. The charr could possibly have gotten some mileage out of raiding the coast, but a navy that represented a significant threat would be noticed and responded to, and a few primitive engines probably would not have been decisive back then.

The Asuran wouldn’t be able to decide what to do.

The Charr are really offensive, but not really defensive (they don’t build forts, only warcamps) so they can be ambushed.

The Pale Tree can change the Wyld Hunt of all sylvari? And their armies are near infinite, but if the Pale Tree dies, it’s GG

Norn do not have armies, so they won’t get destroyed by another race, but won’t win either, they’ll fight eternally.

Humans have the ability to create Watch Knights, their other technology is weak, though. They have some impregnable forts (Ebon Hawke, DR) and they have some powerfull God Artifacts.

draxynnic.3719:

To the second: That’s not the impression I had. Sea of Sorrows referred to Krytan forces achieving gains in the lands around Ebonhawke at least at one point – but neither side achieved anything decisive.

It’s interesting to speculate what might have come of that scouting mission if Zhaitan hadn’t risen – but it’s worth keeping in mind that Zhaitan’s rise did a lot more damage to Kryta than the Dragonbrand did to the charr. The charr could possibly have gotten some mileage out of raiding the coast, but a navy that represented a significant threat would be noticed and responded to, and a few primitive engines probably would not have been decisive back then.

I just remember the little asura saying humans had no major victories. So any land gains around EH were probably just considered a buffer that kept the charr at bay. or at the very least, not a major victory.

The princes strategy when dealing with the charr was to send masses of troops to their death in order to drive the charr back. He tried it against the risen until Cobiah let him know that what works on the charr won’t work on the risen because all of your casualties get back up and strengthen the enemy.

On the scouting mission: If the charr wanted to get the most out of their scouting I don’t think they should have limited themselves to raiding the coast. The charr seemed to know the layout and architecture of the city pretty good and it wasn’t just any city, it was the capitol. I would have used that knowledge to try to strike directly at the royal family. remember, the only reason they survived Zaitans attack was because they happened to be away from LA at the time of the tidal wave. Success in that would have been a huge blow to kryta.

Remember that that engine allowed cobiahs ship to come and go as he pleased without depending on the tide to launch ships. And it allowed the charr ship to be crewed with far fewer deck hands. if the charr started producing multiple engines before peace was finally made, it could have been big factor. Even against human ships being as well built as they are.

From what I recall, the prince was claiming victories. How credible he was, though, is open to interpretation.

An assassination attempt is a possibility, but the royal family had a fortress to live in that probably had suitable guards. Not saying that that would have been a guaranteed failure, but assassination is enough of a gamble that I don’t think it’s reasonable to factor it in to calculations. It’s one thing to know the layout of the civilian areas of the city, quite another to infiltrate it successfully and get into the castle when you’re clearly of a different race to the inhabitants.

Regarding the engine… like I said, it’s an advantage, but the charr weren’t experienced seafarers while, prior to Zhaitan’s rise, Kryta was a major seafaring nation that had ports on all three landbound sides of the Sea of Sorrows. Any ships they put out onto the Sea of Sorrows would be at the end of a long supply chain (their port was on that inlet that runs south of the Shiverpeaks, and even that is putting it in a fairly remote location overland compared to the main charr settlements) – and that’s something that matters quite a bit more to powered shipping than sailships. It’d also take the charr time and resources to build a credible fleet – time and resources they’re not putting onto other fronts – and the powered ship didn’t have a huge advantage in ship-to-ship combat in the book. Especially since, in a pinch, humans can put elementalists on ships to give their sailing ships some of those mobility advantages (as well as possibly building more of those djinn-powered vessels or other magically propelled ships) – remember, part of the impetus for charr developing technology was as a substitute for magic.

One thing I think you’re underestimating is how devastating the tidal wave and following invasions was to Kryta. We don’t have accurate information on demographics at the time, but if you look at Guild Wars 1, the most populated parts of Kryta apart from Lion’s Arch appear to be Riverside Province, Divinity Coast, and D’Alessio Seaboard, in roughly that order. Of those, only one survived Zhaitan’s rise and the following invasions – it’s probably not unreasonable to estimate that Kryta’s population could have been reduced by as much as 50% as a result (its total land area certainly was). We’ve also been told a lot of knowledge was lost in the tidal wave – the official explanation as to why professions such as the ritualist and dervish have essentially disappeared from Tyria is that most of the experts were in Lion’s Arch when the flood happened. Without the tsunami, Kryta would still have access to those traditions in full, not just the butchered remnants that remain.

Plus, you know, the continued benefits of trade with Cantha and possibly others, and so on.

So, overall, in the scenario where Zhaitan never happened… for anything short of the eradication of the royal family (there were multiple heirs then, unlike now) and a Khan-Ur-esque civil war, then regardless of the charr opening a new front, I expect the result would be that the overall balance of power would be more in Kryta’s favour than it is now.

draxynnic.3719:

Lostwingman.5034:

draxynnic.3719:

Well, we haven’t seen the big tanks (the ones with the massive rear wheel at the back) in action, although they seem, at best, unsuited to anything but a siege (armament fixed forward, and that big rear wheel that from the design seems to be carrying most of the weight probably bogs down at the drop of a hat).

The small ones technically aren’t even tanks, but primitive armoured cars armed with light howitzers. Far from invulnerable, particularly when there are prople around who can throw fireballs and lightning bolts.

I agree, although I would liken the smaller vehicles more to mobile artillery support than armoured cars.

I’m still waiting for when we will see “Seraph Casters” and the like. Human’s are supposed to have the highest capacity for casting magic so I’m not sure why you wouldn’t at least have a few to act as walking artillery.

I think the mission parameters for the smaller ones are similar to the early marks of the Panzer IV with the short-barreled 75mm – suppression of enemy infantry with light HE. They don’t seem to have the range or firepower of true mobile artillery.

The closest real-life analogue may be the Sdkfz 234/3, although that’s still a bit more modern and heavily armoured.

On Seraph casters – blame ArenaNet being lazy regarding generic friendly NPCs. That said, while humans have the potential, it’s a minority that actually reach that potential. I’m pretty sure they’ve been confirmed to exist, probably in a larger ratio to common soldiers than the allied charr legions except possibly Ash, but as in GW1 the bulk of most human armies are archers and melee types.

The Seperatists are probably more representative of what the actual ratio is in a human military force (bandits are skewed by the influence of what sort of people become bandits, while the Seperatists are probably mostly Ebon Vanguard deserters).

I consider them closer to mobile artillery like a self propelled howitzer than an armored car because I have no clue where you would put the crew there. I mean, with the Dredge suits I understand some leeway has to be given for gameplay (like non-Asura player characters getting in them) but I at least understand where the operator is and that there is one. The Charr vehicles…they all just drive me mad with “nothing here makes sense”. Except for the big siege tanks. Those make a bit of sense even if the suspension is cringe worthy.

For the amount of magic users among humans, I wonder if it is like humans in Codex Alera. Where everyone has some control of the elements (magic in Guild Wars case) but where some people are simply walking apocalypses in their own right. That world had a majority of its people capable of fighting and operating as people would hear except for minor little things (lighting lamps, lifting something heavy, etc). AFAIK magic as it is disseminated to the common folk is pretty vague in GW2.

draxynnic.3719:

An assassination attempt is a possibility, but the royal family had a fortress to live in that probably had suitable guards. Not saying that that would have been a guaranteed failure, but assassination is enough of a gamble that I don’t think it’s reasonable to factor it in to calculations. It’s one thing to know the layout of the civilian areas of the city, quite another to infiltrate it successfully and get into the castle when you’re clearly of a different race to the inhabitants.

Oooh. I got ya. No, I wasn’t thinking of an assassination attempt. if I was the charr, my attack would have been planned to invade LA with the sole intent of laying siege to the castle. Not just raiding the coast or gambling everything on an assassination. So even if the siege never ended, it would have prevented kryta from supporting EH the way it had been. And yeah, the prince was claiming victories but those victories weren’t counted as “major” victories.

Regarding the engine… like I said, it’s an advantage, but the charr weren’t experienced seafarers while, prior to Zhaitan’s rise, Kryta was a major seafaring nation that had ports on all three landbound sides of the Sea of Sorrows. Any ships they put out onto the Sea of Sorrows would be at the end of a long supply chain (their port was on that inlet that runs south of the Shiverpeaks, and even that is putting it in a fairly remote location overland compared to the main charr settlements) – and that’s something that matters quite a bit more to powered shipping than sailships. It’d also take the charr time and resources to build a credible fleet – time and resources they’re not putting onto other fronts – and the powered ship didn’t have a huge advantage in ship-to-ship combat in the book. Especially since, in a pinch, humans can put elementalists on ships to give their sailing ships some of those mobility advantages (as well as possibly building more of those djinn-powered vessels or other magically propelled ships) – remember, part of the impetus for charr developing technology was as a substitute for magic.

While humans certainly have a great navy, they don’t hold the monopoly on magic. A-net has stated the charr appreciate a timely meteor shower and they despise the Flame Legion more for the god worship than the propensity for fireballs.

I doubt the humans could have many magic propelled ships since the engine that cobiah had offered his crew such an advantage multiple times over. It allowed him to come and go reguardless of daily tide, to turn on a dime much faster than a wind powered ship and it allowed him to travel independent of the currents or wind. that’s a pretty big equalizer against a better navy with inferior technology and tactics. it’s the reason the ragtag groups of American colonists did so well against the super power at the time. Rifled barrels changed the game and the experience of the seasoned generals actually worked against Britain. Same with the Titanic. The captains experience worked against him because he didn’t have a strong grasp of how the rules were changed due to the new technology

One thing I think you’re underestimating is how devastating the tidal wave and following invasions was to Kryta. // then regardless of the charr opening a new front, I expect the result would be that the overall balance of power would be more in Kryta’s favour than it is now.

I’m not theory crafting about this part though. before the tidal wave, kryta had all of that available. And it was stated that humanity had no major victories. So we can only assume that kryta was utilizing what was available. it’s not really an issue of what kryta would have done if the tidal wave never happened because we saw that whatever they were doing wasn’t effective enough to claim major victories. So much so that victories were counted by sacrificing countless soldiers simply to repel charr offenses. So even at there full strength they still had no major victories.

Dustfinger.9510:

Oooh. I got ya. No, I wasn’t thinking of an assassination attempt. if I was the charr, my attack would have been planned to invade LA with the sole intent of laying siege to the castle. Not just raiding the coast or gambling everything on an assassination. So even if the siege never ended, it would have prevented kryta from supporting EH the way it had been. And yeah, the prince was claiming victories but those victories weren’t counted as “major” victories.

That would be a logistical nightmare to pull off.

The charr weren’t winning a siege against Ebonhawke when they controlled all the land around it. In your scenario, they’d be trying to lay siege against an enemy city in the heart of the enemy nation, where a relieving army could come from any direction to lift the siege or countersiege the defenders. Meanwhile, in order to keep the besiegers supplied, you’d need to maintain a maritime supply chain through an ocean where the enemy controls all the ports. And since you have a predictable supply chain, you lose the advantage of unpredictability coming from your powered ships as the numerically superior enemy fleet can simply blockade you – particularly since your powered ships are going to have to return to port on a regular basis to refuel.

That’s the sort of thing you need naval superiority to even have a chance of pulling off. A few self-powered ships – particularly since the Krytans had their own self-powered ship under construction, albeit powered by magic – just aren’t going to make the difference.

While humans certainly have a great navy, they don’t hold the monopoly on magic. A-net has stated the charr appreciate a timely meteor shower and they despise the Flame Legion more for the god worship than the propensity for fireballs.

Yes, the allied legions recognise that magic is useful… but they still don’t have a lot of it. The Flame Legion was able to survive the rebellion at all because the other legions recognised that killing off the magically strongest legion would put the charr at too much of a disadvantage (and then the Flame counter-rebelled and the other legions ended up allying with humans – a bit of irony there). Furthermore, while magic is seen as something too useful to discard entirely, it’s still looked down on and viewed with suspicion in general, leading to less charr taking up magic-use in general. On the whole, all branches of magic (except, possibly, necromancy in Ash) appear to be viewed among the charr as similar to how humans view necromancy – yeah, it’s useful, and practitioners are grudgingly accepted as being innocent of any wrongdoing until proven guilty, but they’re still seen as outsiders, a bit weird, and someone to keep an eye on.

With the Flame Legion, it’s possible that the charr and humans are on parity with magic – although with at least elemental magic, Flame Legion magic is highly focused and while Flame Legion shamans may be useful for burning other ships to the waterline, I don’t think they’d be much use for keeping a ship mobile. Without them, though, all the sources point to humans having the advantage when it comes to magic – an advantage that charr developed technology to counter.

I doubt the humans could have many magic propelled ships since the engine that cobiah had offered his crew such an advantage multiple times over. It allowed him to come and go reguardless of daily tide, to turn on a dime much faster than a wind powered ship and it allowed him to travel independent of the currents or wind. that’s a pretty big equalizer against a better navy with inferior technology and tactics.

Except at the time, there was only one. There was also one ship under construction in Kryta that was powered by magic. Sure, if it wasn’t for Zhaitan’s rise, the charr could have built more engine-powered ships… but the Krytans might also have continued work on magic-powered ships if Kryta had remained a naval power. Furthermore, see my point above about how if you’re trying to supply a besieging force by sea, you lose the advantage of unpredictability.

I’m not theory crafting about this part though. before the tidal wave, kryta had all of that available. And it was stated that humanity had no major victories. So we can only assume that kryta was utilizing what was available. it’s not really an issue of what kryta would have done if the tidal wave never happened because we saw that whatever they were doing wasn’t effective enough to claim major victories. So much so that victories were counted by sacrificing countless soldiers simply to repel charr offenses. So even at there full strength they still had no major victories.

Sure, they had no decisive victories, but they were able to push the charr away from the walls of Ebonhawke at the time, which they largely weren’t able to later. (Incidentally, I’d also point out that I’ve seen no evidence that charr tactics were really much better – the charr victories after the Searing basically boiled down to the charr having more meat to throw into the grinder.)

On the other hand, Ebonhawke continued to hold until the truce, despite Kryta’s land area, and likely overall power as well, being cut in half.

The balancing factor is that the charr were likely able to be more focused on fighting humans at the time. They had the ghosts to deal with, yes, but the Flame Legion behaved itself at least for a time before launching a counter-revolution, and the ogre and harpy migrations are a relatively recent thing. Now, I’m not saying that this would necessarily have lead to humanity winning that war rather than it ending in a stalemate – however, in a hypothetical Zhatan-less scenario, I really don’t see any way humanity could have been worse off short of a lucky decapitation strike. After all, between the tsunami and Risen assaults, Kryta lost basically everything that was practical to attack by sea – I don’t think it’s reasonable to think that even if the charr dispatched a fleet of WW1 dreadnoughts that they could have done significantly more damage to Kryta than Zhaitan did.

Lostwingman.5034:

I consider them closer to mobile artillery like a self propelled howitzer than an armored car because I have no clue where you would put the crew there. I mean, with the Dredge suits I understand some leeway has to be given for gameplay (like non-Asura player characters getting in them) but I at least understand where the operator is and that there is one. The Charr vehicles…they all just drive me mad with “nothing here makes sense”. Except for the big siege tanks. Those make a bit of sense even if the suspension is cringe worthy.

Yeah, the designs are silly – they simply aren’t large enough to contain a charr crew suitable to control a vehicle of that type. You might be able to fit a single small charr in, but that charr would have to be acting as driver, gunner, loader and commander… and we all know how much of a disadvantage one-man turrets were in WW2.

That said, I don’t think we ever see the small ‘tanks’ moving and firing at once and the howitzer appears to be pulled back into the vehicle in order to be reloaded, so it’s plausible.

However, the fact that the gun IS pulled back in to the vehicle to be reloaded indicates that ArenaNet sees the gun as being internally manned, even if the ‘tank’ doesn’t seem big enough to contain a charr crew. It’s not like, say, a Wespe where the gun crew is largely exposed.

There’s also my point in that whenever the small ‘tanks’ appear, their gun is being used as a direct-fire weapon. Its role is to move forward with supporting units and engage targets directly, not to sit somewhere that’s (hopefully) well away from any threats while firing on distant targets, the usual mission profile for artillery SPGs.

Of course, there’s always a certain level of overlap between dedicated artillery and any tank able to fire useful HE, but as I said – the ‘tanks’ seem to be being used in a similar role to early-model PzIVs or even the original British male tanks – direct support of infantry with light artillery.

For the amount of magic users among humans, I wonder if it is like humans in Codex Alera. Where everyone has some control of the elements (magic in Guild Wars case) but where some people are simply walking apocalypses in their own right. That world had a majority of its people capable of fighting and operating as people would hear except for minor little things (lighting lamps, lifting something heavy, etc). AFAIK magic as it is disseminated to the common folk is pretty vague in GW2.

I think that’s pretty much what we’ve been told, in fact – there’s an interview somewhere where it’s said that everyone has some minor magical capability, although not necessarily even enough to light a lamp or lift something heavy (Pre-Cataclysm Orr was viewed as strange because people were using that sort of level of magic casually, although that could be partially because at that period, there wasn’t enough magic elsewhere for this to be practical). Most humans, however, don’t develop it further than that.

It’s kinda like – and I think they used a similar analogy – how everyone has the capability to do some simple addition, but PhDs in mathematics or maths-heavy fields such as theoretical physics are quite rare.

draxynnic.3719:

That would be a logistical nightmare to pull off.

The charr weren’t winning a siege against Ebonhawke when they controlled all the land around it. In your scenario, they’d be trying to lay siege against an enemy city in the heart of the enemy nation, where a relieving army could come from any direction to lift the siege or ///

That’s the sort of thing you need naval superiority to even have a chance of pulling off. A few self-powered ships – particularly since the Krytans had their own self-powered ship under construction, albeit powered by magic – just aren’t going to make the difference.

The difference here is that EH was being supported by a big kingdom with all it’s resources in tact. When you start besieging the castle, the machine that was Kryta support suddenly isn’t as effective. By taking LA you take the port. That means you are able to blockade human navel fleets from LA and it forces kryta to need a supply chain themselves. And defense is always easier than offense. So taking LA allows the charr to take up a defensive position against the rrest of Kryta while the ktyta leadership is holed up and cut off from the rest of krytas forces. We can say that the siege of EH wasn’t successful but it ignores the fact that all major victories in the entire war were accomplished by the charr. With facts like that, a prolonged war with the charr means that a human loss is eventually inevitable. because no matter how long the humans hold the charr off, anther major victory is going to come sometime. And then again some time later. Until peace is reached or humans lose. Or some dues ex machine saves humanity.

Yes, the allied legions recognise that magic is useful/// Flame Legion magic is highly focused and while Flame Legion shamans may be useful for burning other ships to the waterline, I don’t think they’d be much use for keeping a ship mobile. Without them, though, all the sources point to humans having the advantage when it comes to magic – an advantage that charr developed technology to counter.

Your saying humans use more magic. That’s absolutely true. What I’m saying is that charr also have their own majic. Just not as much as humans do. So while humans have an advantage, it isn’t as huge an advanatage as was made out to be.

Except at the time, there was only one. There was also one ship under construction in Kryta that was powered by magic. Sure, if it wasn’t for Zhaitan’s rise, the charr could have built more engine-powered ships… but the Krytans might also have continued work on magic-powered ships if Kryta had remained a naval power. Furthermore, see my point above about how if you’re trying to supply a besieging force by sea, you lose the advantage of unpredictability.

There was only one test engine. And it’s purpose was to allow charr to compete in naval affairs The charr create technology to distribute throughout charr society. That was the purpose of the test engine. Now do we know that the test engine had anything to do with the plans to invade LA? No. But we do know that the same warband was working on both projects at the same time so it’s a pretty good chance that the two are related. The plan may very well have been to attack the capitol of kryta only after the chrr had an engine powered fleet to do it.

Now in order for kryta to make more magic ships they need some sort of steady supply of djinn willing to be bound to a whole fleet of ships. We don’t know if a resource like that was even available in any large supply. Kryta had a magic ship but it was a very specialized ship. It followed the theme of humans artisan trend while the charr had an option that was definitely mass producible.

draxynnic.3719:

Sure, they had no decisive victories, but they were able to push the charr away from the walls of Ebonhawke at the time, which they largely weren’t able to later. (Incidentally, I’d also point out that I’ve seen no evidence that charr tactics were really much better – the charr victories after the Searing basically boiled down to the charr having more meat to throw into the grinder.)

On the other hand, Ebonhawke continued to hold until the truce, despite Kryta’s land area, and likely overall power as well, being cut in half.

The balancing factor is that the charr were likely able to be more focused on fighting humans at the time. They had the ghosts to deal with, yes, but the Flame Legion behaved itself at least for a time before launching a counter-revolution, and the ogre and harpy migrations are a relatively recent thing. Now, I’m not saying that this would necessarily have lead to humanity winning that war rather than it ending in a stalemate – however, in a hypothetical Zhatan-less scenario, I really don’t see any way humanity could have been worse off short of a lucky decapitation strike. After all, between the tsunami and Risen assaults, Kryta lost basically everything that was practical to attack by sea – I don’t think it’s reasonable to think that even if the charr dispatched a fleet of WW1 dreadnoughts that they could have done significantly more damage to Kryta than Zhaitan did.

That was essentially krytas tactics in supporting EH as well. They threw krytan soldiers into the meant grinder simply to repel the charr. kryta lost much of it’s naval resources in zaitains attack. But they were supporting EH largely with their land based resources, so those wouldn’t have changed …….. unless the charr did something like attack the capitol of kryta and lay siege to the royal family, causing krytas land based resources to pull abandon EH and defend their own crown.

They wouldn’t have needed to have done more damage than zaitan. Simply by beginning an assault on kryta, they would have changed the game board. No longer would EH have been supported by a fully functioning land based army with all of krytas resources at it’s disposal, the way it had been.

granted we don’t know how much the harpies and ogres and FL were really a big factor. maybe they built their strength up and finally migrated at the right time or maybe they moved in once peace was reached due to the fact that there was a power vacuum left by the lack of a military machine moving through the area.

Possibly the FL was only able to make this kind of a comeback once peace was reached and a lot of charr in favor of the war decided to join them. I don’t see how we could draw any conclusions about x-factors like that. So, while not a guaranteed overwhelming victory for the charr, the hard facts we do know have them looking pretty good.

They simply had more resources, to spread out and were in a better position to wage war. EH only held because they had two kingdoms entire resources focused focused on one front. The charr were able to plan an attack on Krtya and that would have dramatically stunted a whole kingdoms support to EH. Which needed that support to survive. While the charr could afford to wage a constant offensive war for centuries and claim all major victories.

To the first:

I think you’re still grossly underestimating how hard it would be to place a credible siege on Lion’s Arch from sea.

First, engines or not, the charr were never known for their navy. The amount of troops they could have deployed for this hypothetical siege would be limited to what they could mount on however many ships they did have, and then they’d need supplies.

Second… Lion’s Arch was placed for its defensive qualities against a potential attack from Orr, whether from land or sea. Lion’s Arch, defended by the Lionguard (which during the War in Kryta was basically an underfunded police force), a ragtag bunch of rebels, and a few heroes broke the back of a White Mantle supported by jades and a handful of powerful mursaat. Your hypothetical besiegers most likely aren’t going to get into the city. They’re going to be left exposed on the fields outside. And that port you’re thinking of shutting down… Most likely, still operational. Maybe you can blockade it, but you can’t use it, and Kryta had plenty of other ports back then.

Third, you keep referencing Sea of Sorrows – read through those final chapters again and see just how much magic use is being employed to coordinate the Krytan fleet. Yes, the charr have some magic of their own – but they’re not going to match that. And that’s after the academies of Lion’s Arch were destroyed.

Fourth, building a fleet of any strength is a significant undertaking, that will draw resources away from other fronts – building that fleet might have weakened the charr enough that a human offensive from Ebonhawke could have won a major victory.

Fifth, amphibious assaults are hard. There’s a reason Operation Sea Lion never launched, Gallipoli failed to achieve anything significant, and D-Day was so expensive – and the latter two were undertaken with complete naval supremacy in the region. All things considered, your amphibious siege is about as realistic as the Krytans besieging the Black Citadel across the Shiverpeaks. Or, for that matter, if we were to imagine amphibious assaults were that easy… seizing the charr port from which the siege is being supplied.

Sixth, on that mention of the final chapters of SoS – the Krytans are using mesmers to communicate. Even if, somehow, that siege actually happened, it’s not going to paralyse the nation.

As to your claim about ‘all major victories in that war were won by the charr’…

Where are we defining the war? Until the Guild Wars, all major victories were lost by the charr. Without the titan ex machina of the Searing, they’d still be behind the Wall. And in the period between the Foefire and the truce, there were no decisive victories won by either side. Zero. Zip. Zilch.

What makes you think the next decisive victory was going to be a charr one? The destruction of literally half of Kryta should have tipped the balance heavily in the favour of the charr, and yet Ebonhawke stood. With all the implausibility of your siege, it simply pales in comparison to the outright destruction of Lion’s Arch and basically all of Kryta south of what was once called North Kryta Province, when in GW1 the largest Krytan population centres were to the south. And yet, Ebonhawke stood.

Yes, the warband was scouting the region to see what sort of mischief the charr could achieve by opening a front on the Sea of Sorrows. However, extrapolating from that that the charr would be able to launch a siege on Lion’s Arch that would have a more decisive influence on the war than the destruction of every Krytan settlement on the coast of the Sea of Sorrows (okay, with the sole known exception of Garrenhoff, and today that’s Krytan only according to the map) is insane.

On self-powered ships: Yes, the charr could build more, but see my above comments about that being an undertaking. Every engine that goes in a ship is not going to power some other war machine. Every plank of timber… same. Every worker, every crewman, and so on… you get the picture. And all this takes time.

And yes, you’re right in that there seems to be only one djinn – but experience from building that ship could have gone to others. If Kryta had remained a naval power, maybe they would have figured out the same magic that powered the xebecs, or found a way to power a ship with conventional elementals (a dime a dozen) rather than sapient djinn. Maybe once they get notice that the charr are active on the Sea of Sorrows they’ll start posting elementalists on every warship to gain the same advantage by controlling the winds and currents to their advantage.

Even if we assume that Kryta only ever has one magic ship and the charr do build a fleet of powered ships before launching their invasion… you’re still going to need to get enough charr soldiers over there to lay an effective siege. You’re probably fitting about 200 charr soldiers per ship, by historical figures (not including crew, but while crew might join in on raids, you’re probably not going to want them to abandon their ship for the duration of a siege). Factor in losses along the way (the Krytan navy is certainly going to inflict some by contesting the landing at least unless caught napping entirely, and if you think they will be, then I’m going to counterpropose a surprise siege over the Shiverpeaks again) and you’re going to need a LOT of ships. My suspicion is that while the Legions thought it was worth sending a scout out, they were never going to look at the intel and decide “Oh, how about we throw a massive gamble into besieging the Krytan capital!”. They’re more likely to go “how about we raid the flow of trade with Cantha, possibly hit a few of the smaller, less-defended settlements, and force the Krytans to spread out their forces to defend their sea lanes and ports. With five ships, including solders and crew that’ll be two thousand charr – thanks to the engines, if they can avoid engaging the Krytan navy and keep raiding, that will force the Krytans to post three or four thousand soldiers at every settlement along the coast to protect them, which means we’ll reduce their available manpower to send to Ebonhawke by a lot more than it costs us.”

At the bottom line, though, some very simple logic is against you.

Kryta devastated by the Great Tsunami, losing all trade with Cantha as well most of the magical knowledge contained within Lion’s Arch, and Risen destroying the southern half of Kryta → Ebonhawke holds.

Kryta not devastated by the Great Tsunami and remaining at full strength → ?

If you honestly think the latter is more likely to lead to “Ebonhawke falls”, you’re dreaming.

This discussin isn’t going anywhere, honestly :P

We could theorize for years, IRL-world wise Charr would be supreme to anyone but…
Magic!

Present Arena Net can give anyone tremendous advantage by just saying “but oh, it’s magical!”. They were using this term so often over last two years that we really can’t be sure and point out any laws on Tyria.

So comparing races in world war situation is just nonsense. One can give Hyleks a magic booster and suddenly make them overlords, or say that Charr tanks melt in ice.

draxynnic.3719:

To the first:

I think you’re still grossly underestimating how hard it would be to place a credible siege on Lion’s Arch from sea.
////on Lion’s Arch that would have a more decisive influence on the war than the destruction of every Krytan settlement on the coast of the Sea of Sorrows (okay, with the sole known exception of Garrenhoff, and today that’s Krytan only according to the map) is insane.

draxynnic.3719:

On self-powered ships: Yes, the charr could build more, but see my above comments about that being an undertaking. Every engine that goes in a ship is not going to power some other war machine. Every plank of timber… same. Every worker, every crewman, and so on… you get the picture. And all this takes time.

And yes, you’re right in that there seems to be only one djinn – but experience from building that ship could have gone to others. If Kryta had remained a naval power, maybe they would have figured out the same magic that powered the xebecs, or found a way to power a ship with conventional elementals (a dime a dozen) rather than sapient djinn. Maybe once they get notice that the charr are active on the Sea of Sorrows they’ll start posting elementalists on every warship to gain the same advantage by controlling the winds and currents to their advantage.

Even if we assume that Kryta only ever has one magic ship and the charr do build a fleet of powered ships before launching their invasion… you’re still going to need to get enough charr soldiers over there to lay an effective siege. You’re probably fitting about 200 charr soldiers per ship, by historical figures (not including crew, but while crew might join in on raids, you’re probably not going to want them to abandon their ship for the duration of a siege). Factor in losses along the way (the Krytan navy is certainly going to inflict some by contesting the landing at least unless caught napping entirely, and if you think they will be, then I’m going to counterpropose a surprise siege over the Shiverpeaks again) and you’re going to need a LOT of ships. My suspicion is that while the Legions thought it was worth sending a scout out, they were never going to look at the intel and decide “Oh, how about we throw a massive gamble into besieging the Krytan capital!”. They’re more likely to go “how about we raid the flow of trade with Cantha, possibly hit a few of the smaller, less-defended settlements, and force the Krytans to spread out their forces to defend their sea lanes and ports. With five ships, including solders and crew that’ll be two thousand charr – thanks to the engines, if they can avoid engaging the Krytan navy and keep raiding, that will force the Krytans to post three or four thousand soldiers at every settlement along the coast to protect them, which means we’ll reduce their available manpower to send to Ebonhawke by a lot more than it costs us.”

All this to say an attack isn’t possible. But we know an attack was already being planned and the charr had intimate information about the layout and plans of the city. We know the charr were planning to attack. And not just attack small settlements. We already know for a fact that they were planning an attack on the capitol itself. And we know the charr have no problems waging wars and building resources that take time.

At the bottom line, though, some very simple logic is against you.

Kryta devastated by the Great Tsunami, losing all trade with Cantha as well most of the magical knowledge contained within Lion’s Arch, and Risen destroying the southern half of Kryta -> Ebonhawke holds.

Kryta not devastated by the Great Tsunami and remaining at full strength -> ?

If you honestly think the latter is more likely to lead to “Ebonhawke falls”, you’re dreaming.

As was already stated, krytas navy was hurt by the tsunami. krytas land forces remained intact. But let’s look at your logic. Krya sacrifices wave after wave of troops into the meat grinder simply to repel the charr from EH. But somehow, without that kind of support, EH would have faired no worse. That sounds more like a dream than anything. What was the purpose of kryta helping at all?

draxynnic.3719:

Yeah, the designs are silly – they simply aren’t large enough to contain a charr crew suitable to control a vehicle of that type. You might be able to fit a single small charr in, but that charr would have to be acting as driver, gunner, loader and commander… and we all know how much of a disadvantage one-man turrets were in WW2.

That said, I don’t think we ever see the small ‘tanks’ moving and firing at once and the howitzer appears to be pulled back into the vehicle in order to be reloaded, so it’s plausible.

However, the fact that the gun IS pulled back in to the vehicle to be reloaded indicates that ArenaNet sees the gun as being internally manned, even if the ‘tank’ doesn’t seem big enough to contain a charr crew. It’s not like, say, a Wespe where the gun crew is largely exposed.

There’s also my point in that whenever the small ‘tanks’ appear, their gun is being used as a direct-fire weapon. Its role is to move forward with supporting units and engage targets directly, not to sit somewhere that’s (hopefully) well away from any threats while firing on distant targets, the usual mission profile for artillery SPGs.

Of course, there’s always a certain level of overlap between dedicated artillery and any tank able to fire useful HE, but as I said – the ‘tanks’ seem to be being used in a similar role to early-model PzIVs or even the original British male tanks – direct support of infantry with light artillery.

I consider them more like the SU-152s and SU-122s. Artillery support doesn’t come in only one flavor and you can still do indirect fire with a 20* vertical arc. Also, I consider the “only see them direct firing in game” more an point of the game’s direction and gameplay. Also, it might be that the gun retracts to be loaded by an internal automated mechanism. I would consider that much more likely than the “Midget Charr” crew.

I think that’s pretty much what we’ve been told, in fact – there’s an interview somewhere where it’s said that everyone has some minor magical capability, although not necessarily even enough to light a lamp or lift something heavy (Pre-Cataclysm Orr was viewed as strange because people were using that sort of level of magic casually, although that could be partially because at that period, there wasn’t enough magic elsewhere for this to be practical). Most humans, however, don’t develop it further than that.

It’s kinda like – and I think they used a similar analogy – how everyone has the capability to do some simple addition, but PhDs in mathematics or maths-heavy fields such as theoretical physics are quite rare.

I recall that interview, I also recall there being a bit of controversy over how it went with GW1. Or maybe I’m working 60 hour weeks too much and my memory doesn’t want to exist on this plane.

Dustfinger.9510:

All this to say an attack isn’t possible. But we know an attack was already being planned and the charr had intimate information about the layout and plans of the city. We know the charr were planning to attack. And not just attack small settlements. We already know for a fact that they were planning an attack on the capitol itself. And we know the charr have no problems waging wars and building resources that take time.

We know an attack was being planned but do we even know how serious they considered the plan? It might have just been a contingency for down the line when such an attack is feasible.

Lostwingman.5034:

I recall that interview, I also recall there being a bit of controversy over how it went with GW1. Or maybe I’m working 60 hour weeks too much and my memory doesn’t want to exist on this plane.

You guys are remembering it right. A-net said every one is born with inherent magic ability. The controversy was that in GW1 not every one was. but the explanation is that due to the ED’s bleeding magic back into the world, everyone s born with it now.

And they equated learning a new type of magic in addition to one you already learned as forgetting everything you already know and earning another degree.

edit: “The citizens of Tyria have ready access to this flow of magic from a very young age. They are, after all, as much a natural part of the world as are the dragons. There are as many individual ways to tap into that magic as there are people in Tyria. Some follow the methods taught to them by mentors or teachers. Others devise their own special style and relationship with magic. Some use items to enhance or channel their powers, such as the Zephyrites who use their crystals to access the Aspects.”

“only the most powerful have the time and energy to do this. It’s like getting two doctorate degrees, one in medicine and one in engineering. Few have the time to do this, and usually, an individual doesn’t want to turn her back on everything she’s already learned to start a new magical discipline. She’d much rather continue advancing her knowledge in the discipline she’s invested decades in. Some, however, may dabble and experiment with specific spells. If a master elementalist can find a mesmer to teach her to produce an illusion, then she may explore ways to combine them. Most professions keep their secrets close to their chests though. And, the danger of a conflict between magical energies and thus, an explosion, is very real.”

http://esprits-dorr.fr/node/261

Lostwingman.5034:

Dustfinger.9510:

All this to say an attack isn’t possible. But we know an attack was already being planned and the charr had intimate information about the layout and plans of the city. We know the charr were planning to attack. And not just attack small settlements. We already know for a fact that they were planning an attack on the capitol itself. And we know the charr have no problems waging wars and building resources that take time.

We know an attack was being planned but do we even know how serious they considered the plan? It might have just been a contingency for down the line when such an attack is feasible.

Possibly. But it seemed to be a plan that was already being geared up for. The warband that was creating and testing the engine in order to be able to compete with kryta on the water were also the ones that had scouted and mapped the capitol.

So it is entirely possible that each warband was designated to come up with some new strategy. And that those strategies were reviewed by higher command as to whether or not the charr would designate resources to them but this strategy apparently made it past the drawing board into implementation. Even if it was the beginning stages of that implementation.

edit: Here we are. It does appear it was still in the experimentation phase. .

“The Iron legion’s original goal was to create a naval unit that could challenge Kryta for controle of the Sea of Sorrows. Maybe make an assault on Lion’s Arch” SoS p 75

But it was still a solid plan that was being engaged.

Sykox looked uncomfortable. "Er….. Thought I’d mentioned this before. We studied the architectural plans of Lion’s Arch in the fahrar, when I was a child. The imperator of the Iron Legion was planning for our generation to assault and seize the city. You know….. when the charr were done conquering Ascalon. SoS p. 225

And it appears I was wrong about them planning the assault at the same time. They knew they needed to be able to focus their resources in order to do it. Also, other warbands scouted and mapped the city. This one just studied it for it’s applied purpose.

edit 2: Some interesting tidbits.

That’s my design. The Imperitor of the Iron Legion wanted us to push the boundaries so I did. Took one of the experimental engines we’ve been working on and built her into the brig. Coal-foddered pistons propel a turbine pushing us forward. With that, plus the wind in her jibs, we’ll go half again as fast as one of your human galleons. We can turn 90 degrees and not lose speed. Doesn’t matter what direction the wind is coming from-we can strike out with it or against it ans still make ground" The big charr’s smile faded. “Unfortunately, the Havoc’s the only one of her kind. We were out of harbor on a test run of the engine when the wave hit; that’s the only reason we survived at all.” p. 75-76

“See, I was raised in a fahrar-that’s like a cub training school-near the border of Kryta. We spent a lot of time studying the people who lived in Lion’s Arch” p. 83

The “when we were done conquering Ascalon” part seems very telling to me. It’s not practical while Ebonhawke and its gate could send a living human army into Iron Legion homeland at any time while the bulk of the army (not already tied up by ghosts) was heading for Kryta. Remove that threat, and making a plan to hit Kryta next makes a lot of sense from a charr mindset (the charr war machine being less, well, war machine dependent then, they could probably have crossed the Shiverpeaks with their main army to attack LA with support from naval units).

For that to truly be viable, though, requires Ebonhawke to fall, and we know that didn’t happen even with Kryta weakened. It’s probably a large part of the reason Kryta continued supporting Ebonhawke, in fact – keep the war in Ascalon so it doesn’t come to Kryta.

The idea of a fahrar close to Kryta is a weird one, since as far as we know there has never been a direct shared border between Kryta and charr territory (the invasion after the Searing was, well, an invasion – they didn’t set down any roots in the lands north of Kryta). Best explanation I can come up with is that they had a scouting camp to the north or in the western Shiverpeaks, and they had a fahrar in the camp (a gamble, since if the camp is found the cubs will be vulnerable, but the idea might have been for the cubs to get direct experience with Kryta as part of their training). That, or eastern Kryta extended further south between GW1 and Zhaitan’s rise, and they met with the Iron Legion border expanding through the Deldrimor Front.

On Kryta’s land forces: I can’t see how the events of Sea of Sorrows could have taken place without taking a big chunk out of Kryta’s land warfare capabilities. Even if through miraculous incompetence there was no garrison at Lion’s Arch or any of the cities more directly destroyed by the Risen like Port Stalwart, the loss of population, land resources, and Canthan trade is going to cut back on the size of an army that can be supported, and the loss of the Lion’s Arch academies (the usual reason given for pretty much any ‘what happened to X profession’ question) would have caused a scaling back of the quality of magical support Kryta had available.

@Lostwingman.5034: The SU-122 and SU-152 probably fulfill a similar role – fire support that CAN serve as artillery. However, a) I’d consider them to be more assault guns rather than artillery SPGs, albeit larger and more capable than the StuGs they were inspired by, b) I’m inclined to rate both as MUCH more capable than the small charrtanks (I haven’t measured it directly – maybe I should – but I do think it’s closer to a 3-inch than a 5- or 6-inch gun), and c) the small charrtanks have a fully rotating turret (although this is a relatively minor point).

The most important, though, is usage. I tend to regard artillery SPGs as something that you generally don’t want to be in sight of the front lines giving direct fire. This may be a ‘potato-potato’ thing, but the combination of fully rotating turret and frontline use makes me think of it as a howitzer tank like the KV2 or early PzIV… except that because it’s on wheels rather than tracks, it’s a howitzer armoured car instead.

Dustfinger.9510:

And it appears I was wrong about them planning the assault at the same time. They knew they needed to be able to focus their resources in order to do it.

;-)

draxynnic.3719:

@Lostwingman.5034: The SU-122 and SU-152 probably fulfill a similar role – fire support that CAN serve as artillery. However, a) I’d consider them to be more assault guns rather than artillery SPGs, albeit larger and more capable than the StuGs they were inspired by, b) I’m inclined to rate both as MUCH more capable than the small charrtanks (I haven’t measured it directly – maybe I should – but I do think it’s closer to a 3-inch than a 5- or 6-inch gun), and c) the small charrtanks have a fully rotating turret (although this is a relatively minor point).

The most important, though, is usage. I tend to regard artillery SPGs as something that you generally don’t want to be in sight of the front lines giving direct fire. This may be a ‘potato-potato’ thing, but the combination of fully rotating turret and frontline use makes me think of it as a howitzer tank like the KV2 or early PzIV… except that because it’s on wheels rather than tracks, it’s a howitzer armoured car instead.

These are largely irrelevant points. Quite frankly, how close something is “supposed” to be is irrelevant. It goes where it can get shots and virtually all armored vehicles are capable of indirect fire. I mean this is certainly a rotating turret but it’s meant to be fired indirectly, yet it also has a guard for the crew. Any discussion of “can’t be because of range” is silly. Any cannon armed vehicle can do indirect fire, end point. No vehicle “magically” stops being able to fire its gun depending on how close the thing they want to shoot is, barring terrain and obstacles. My differentiation had nothing to do with such superficial differences, barring the charr having some kind of Deus ex Machina mechanical brain commanding the vehicles. Ultimately it does not feasibly have a crew and thus is closer to this than it is to any of the armored vehicles described.

I’m also still salty about presumptions of the numbers in Charr hordes. They are carnivorous, thus requiring much more territory to support a population than humans would. I would say Krytan humans easily outnumber Iron Legion by any sane logic of supported population per useable acre. I call bs on them being as populous as they are without being also extremely vulnerable from an overall food production perspective.

I think the problem there is that in order to go by support population per usable acre, we have to assume both races have reached the maximum possible number that their territory can support. But there is too “empty” land in tyria to have a solid base to start from.

Dustfinger.9510:

I think the problem there is that in order to go by support population per usable acre, we have to assume both races have reached the maximum possible number that their territory can support. But there is too “empty” land in tyria to have a solid base to start from.

Even still the difference in demand of a massive feline and large hominid are sharp. I’d wager we also see much more farmland in Kryta compared to ranches in Ascalon. I lean toward advantages of races like the Asura and Charr over humans being their near total utilization of their population for productive goals. The Asura to technological development encouraged by individual prestige (I would consider the Norn and Asura more similar than they would appear) and the Charr pretty much entirely being geared towards a total war society to the point I would wonder whether or not there would be limitations in their highly integrated deterministic social roles.

Mostly I’m just baffled at how much humans in GW2 squander and kitten away. We see hints of rifle armed militia in Claypool, I’m wondering why the entire Krytan rural population isn’t armed as such at the least.

Absolutely. The charr have an inherent disadvantage as far as supply lines go. It’s just without controlled variables or a solid base to start from, we can’t extrapolate population size.

I’d guess the reason all human populations aren’t militia is because humans just aren’t geared to mostly be militant. Sure they can be violent and unreasonable like anyone else but they don’t have the chain of command bred into them the way the charr do. And they don’t have that aggressiveness bred into them either. Sans religious fervor, human expansion tends to be more about greed and opportunity than appreciating combat for combats sake, as can be seen in the charr and norn. A lot of people in the smaller settlements seem to have very little desire to militarize. So that seems to echo certain cultures in RL. Small villages may depend on local peacekeepers, while other more out of the way settlements may just respond with their hunting rifles/swords/daggers/pitchforks as needed and able. Without actively looking for some battle to fight in an effort to just get through life.

We can extrapolate very basic things which can tell us a lot, the type of species they are and it’s dietary needs plus the general organization of the society. It also goes beyond supply lines. I’m talking about the supply base and what can be inferred from the biology, society, and generalized total holdings.

tl;dr
At this juncture, humanity appears to be portrayed contrary to historical reality and logical sense or at the least what we see just appears off. It appears off and I’m not sure how much of that is for gameplay reasons and how much it is legit lore that civilians living in a war zone would rather get killed empty handed than participate in a militia.

Also, if you can’t tell. This whole situation seriously annoys me.

Lostwingman.5034:

We can extrapolate very basic things which can tell us a lot, the type of species they are and it’s dietary needs plus the general organization of the society. It also goes beyond supply lines. I’m talking about the supply base and what can be inferred from the biology, society, and generalized total holdings.

Numbers on population aren’t a basic thing though. They depend on too many unaccounted for factors.

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Also, I call bs on that. People who settled the American West starting even before the pushes into the Ohio Valley were armed for self-protection at the least. I think there is too much a emphasis of “oh, hey, military stuff, that’s like, a charr thing, so humans wouldn’t even think about self defense!”. Bull //resources besides West. At a fundamental level, population and resource pressures push people to colonize. It’s a lot more complex and a lot less avaricious than the popular tropes put out, which are heavily influenced by the views on American expansion west which was still primarily driven by homesteaders being incentivized by the crowded conditions of the East.

You’ve pointed out instances where people armed themselves. I’ve accounted for that since they are free to defend themselves against threats that arise. But that doesn’t neccesarily make them a militia. Plenty of American settlers had rifles for hunting and self protection without being militia. Meanwhile, plenty of peasants in Europe couldn’t afford firearms so relied on traveling peacekeepers that traveled rural roads. And local peacekeepers wich were little more than one guy chosen to carry the only sword in town. Not everybody had the same means.

tl;dr
At this juncture, humanity appears to be portrayed contrary to historical reality and logical sense or at the least what we see just appears off. It appears off and I’m not sure how much of that is for gameplay reasons and how much it is legit lore that civilians living in a war zone would rather get killed empty handed than participate in a militia.

Also, if you can’t tell. This whole situation seriously annoys me.

Historical reality varies greatly. Look at the feudal systems of Europe. There was the constant threat of attack and raids. The “nobility” developed because it was their job to protect the borders. While the working class had the job of providing for the nobility which allowed the nobility to concentrate on better securitity. A fine idea steeped in symbiosis but, human nature being what it is, caused the symbiotic relationship to become a caste system and the workers essentially became servants and slaves over time.

All of your examples reference communities removed from the feudal customs. But that doesn’t reflect Krytan society.

edit: Look at the bandits. They’re human, they have a raiding culture and they are all armed to the teeth. Not everybody in every small village and settlement in history had a raiding or warrior culture.

Yes but there are simple facts that you cannot get around. You can support more omnivores on a given acre than you can carnivores. This is simple fact. When discussing the larger implications and movings of the world that aren’t directly told to us we are left to infer from what basic facts we do know and can surmise.

I have no idea what you’re trying to get at. Mandatory militia laws were most certainly a thing. Especially on the edge of a frontier or in a war zone where the main military force (Seraph in this case) is stretched thin and hurting, people are going to quickly realize it is better to have an organized defense than to just leave themselves hanging in the wind and fighting on their own. The less organized American West was more due to the wide dispersion of property owners than lack of mechanisms in place as armed civilians were often called upon to act in their own defense. I mean, you are making some awfully kittenumptions in how cavalier people living in spitting distance of Centaur raids are with their lives. It’s one thing to have largely non-militarized civilians in Shaemoor, Beetletun, and maybe even Ascalon Settlement given how big and fortified it is. However for all of the smaller settlements outside of that I cannot imagine they are either garrisoned enough or close enough to Divnity’s Reach to feel safe NOT organizing. I mean, freaking Claypool, Claypool, has is actively training a sizable militia and they really don’t have much in the way of immediate threats. Definitely not compared to many other places. I just don’t see how people with their lives threatened and seeing the destruction and threat first hand (because we do know the centaur raid pretty far and wide in Kryta) would not be driven to organize.

Also, again no. Nobles, at least in Europe, came about as wealthy land holders. The systems that led to European feudalism lie in the structures of the Roman Empire before it which were based on land ownership. Additionally, mainland Europe was heavily populated and often at war with itself. In mainland Europe the threat was being levied into the army as the countries that bordered each other adhered to certain rules of declaring war. This was much different than the situation in say the American West or Kessex Hills where the enemy did not play by the same rules of adhering to borders and preferred persistent surprise raids. This is the vast difference you are forgetting between an enemy that will simply conquer and rule over you and an enemy that wants you gone no matter the means. You really need to consider that when thinking about this. This isn’t two nations fighting over borders. These are different societies fighting for living space.

Your view of feudalism is…odd. The feudal lords protected their holdings insofar as someone would protect their own property. The symbiosis was entirely bore out of necessity by the powerless serfs needing to make a living somewhere. Additionally, I’m not sure how many of these settlements are feudal manors. Nebo Terrace, seems to be absent of one and more of a rural hamelt. Although if the larger settlements are feudal manors then it makes even more sense for these places to have a levied military force protecting it. Heck, the minister’s have proven this with their own “Ministry Guard”.

The bandits are being paid. There is no shortage of the poor and disenfranchised in Kryta. We know they are armed and supplied by people with money. There has never in the history of civilized society been an absence of criminals. I wonder how much of a threat they would be though if they had to garner their own funds themselves? Probably not very much of one. Also as I linked above, in the absence of a strong or sufficient military or law enforcement, you did have the summoning of the common citizen to bolster the law and order of the frontier. So quite simply, either the Seraph are enough for a location or they aren’t and the local citizens by all logic should have picked up the slack.

Seriously though, you do not need a warrior or raiding culture to have either a militia or mechanism to bolster law enforcement and protection.

Now that I think about it. That it is even logistically feasible for these refugees to abandon their farms and move to DR implies that Kryta has enough surplus from existing food production that it can afford to not only sustain the burgeoning numbers in DR but also do so through the loss of farms to the centaurs that is creating refugees. I mean, is there some famine or food shortage I’ve missed somehow besides localized supply shortages? The majority of complaints I see from them in DR is about being displaced, not being hungry. From my perspective, just looking at crop production, Kryta would appear to be doing extremely well currently. Again, unless I am missing something.

Lostwingman.5034:

Yes but there are simple facts that you cannot get around. You can ////and movings of the world that aren’t directly told to us we are left to infer from what basic facts we do know and can surmise.

There is a flaw in taking implications too far. By stating that there are more humans than charr simply based on diet while remaining ignorant of other pertinent information is irresponsible. I can take this logic and claim that a small village on the coast of the meditaranian is more populous than Chicago simply because they like sausage and hotdogs in Chicago while the village has a meditaranian diet. It is an illogical extreme.

I have no idea what you’re trying to get at. Mandatory militia laws were most certainly a thing.

“With the decay of the feudal system and the military revolution of the sixteenth century, the militia began to become an important institution in English life.” Other than that, it says peasants were called to service during larger wars and the militia was the responsibility of the nobles to organize. This doesn’t speak to the point.

Especially on the edge of a frontier or in a war zone where the main military force (Seraph in this case) /////mean, you are making some awfully kittenumptions in how cavalier people living in spitting distance of Centaur raids are with their lives.

This is called ‘forming a posse’. It isn’t an organized militia. seems to confirm what I said when I wrote: “settlements may just respond with their hunting rifles/swords/daggers/pitchforks as needed and able.”

_"It’s one thing to have largely non-militarized civilians in Shaemoor, Beetletun, and maybe even Ascalon Settlement given how big and fortified it is. However for all of the smaller settlements ///////threat first hand (because we do know the centaur raid pretty far and wide in Kryta) would not be driven to organize.

We see it happen in a lot of those little villages in Africa. Warlords run through villages, take the food, kidnap the kids and commit atrocities. The villages remain unorganized and victimized. You may not understand it but we can plainly see that it does happen.

Also, again no. Nobles, at least in Europe, came about as wealthy land holders. "The systems //////thinking about this. This isn’t two nations fighting over borders. These are different societies fighting for living space.

The different societies of mainland Europe weren’t all simply pettily fighting over borders for borders sake. Early on especially they were after the resources of those borders and those resources could mean the difference between life and death during a hard winter.

Your view of feudalism is…odd. The feudal lords protected their holdings insofar as someone would protect their own property. The symbiosis was entirely bore out of necessity /////have a levied military force protecting it. Heck, the minister’s have proven this with their own “Ministry Guard”.

So it makes more sense for them to rely on a military force…… that’s not their own self contained organized militia. Something like that would give feudal lords pause at least.

The bandits are being paid. There is no shortage of the poor and disenfranchised in Kryta. ////the frontier. So quite simply, either the Seraph are enough for a location or they aren’t and the local citizens by all logic should have picked up the slack.

Yes, bandits are helped out due to the power struggle. No one seems to be paying the peasants to get armed.

Seriously though, you do not need a warrior or raiding culture to have either a militia or mechanism to bolster law enforcement and protection.

It helps quite a bit. But there is no guarantee that there will be a miltia even in the face of great danger, as we see in RL Africa.

Lostwingman.5034:

Now that I think about it. That it is even logistically feasible for these refugees to abandon their farms and move to DR implies that Kryta has enough surplus from existing food production that it can afford to not only sustain the burgeoning numbers in DR but also do so through the loss of farms to the centaurs that is creating refugees. I mean, is there some famine or food shortage I’ve missed somehow besides localized supply shortages? The majority of complaints I see from them in DR is about being displaced, not being hungry. From my perspective, just looking at crop production, Kryta would appear to be doing extremely well currently. Again, unless I am missing something.

I don’t think you’re missing anything here. kryta seems to be producing quite a bit of food. We touched a bit on it in This thread

-I didn’t say there were more humans than charr. I said Krytans would likely outnumber Iron Legion. Also your analogy makes literally no sense. I cannot even fathom in what universe that would make sense. A given acre can produce more calories useable to an omnivore than to a carnivore. That’s all I’ve said and made educated guesses with. How the hell does your city comparison bs fit? I’m not talking about comparing the food production of Divinity’s Reach the city and the Black Citadel the city. That makes zero sense. There’s no point continuing this line of thought if you cannot differentiate such a simple concept.

-So common people were still called to the land’s defense and still self-organized themselves for common defense. You haven’t refuted anything.

-I’m way too tired and frustrated from explaining simple things for this… The warlords are heavily armed, many of these villages are not. They have nothing to fight back with and in the places they can fight back, you have civil wars and oh look at that, civil wars are all over Africa where warlords and governments get pushback.

-You are completely not understanding the point. They were fighting to conquer and then rule. They were fighting over borders because those borders determined who controlled the resources. In the case of centaur in GW2 and the Plains tribes in the American West it is completely different because they don’t give a flying kitten about borders and are trying to drive the humans/settlers out. If such simple concepts elude you this discussion is never going to go anywhere.

-It makes sense for people to organize a militia in the absence or lacking of any other protective presence, specifically in the case such as this where the enemy doesn’t want to conquer and rule but to displace or at worst (and nearly as likely) kill. Has this still not gotten through to you? The point there was that if the Seraph aren’t doing their jobs and these are lands held by nobles there is no reason for the nobles to not have their own hired guards to defend their property if not an organized militia from the commoners.

-The peasantry in GW2 appears to be much better off than those in feudal Europe. Unless you are implying that the common person who can own a farm or shop cannot even afford a bow and some arrows there is no way they wouldn’t organize some kind of defense if Seraph are insufficient. Again, we are not talking about a medieval lord marching his army into a neighboring lord’s territory so he can rule over conquered peoples. We are talking about a hostile race of barbarians who will kill you if you do not get out of the way fast enough. We see tons of refugees, which would make up the people running from the fighting, and we also see people sticking it out in contested areas. The only reason these people would be sticking it out is because they either can’t leave (highly unlikely if so many others have been able to) or they feel secure enough to do so. There is just no logical reason for people standing in the face indiscriminate destruction to lie down and take it when they know what is going to happen.

-IRL Africa there are militias that fight back the warlords. What do you think all those kitten civil wars are? I have no idea why you keep pointing to Africa as a glimmering beacon of “no militias” when the place is overrun with them.

I’m done. I cannot explain things in more drawn out simplistic words.

Lostwingman.5034:

-I didn’t say there were more humans than charr. I said Krytans would likely outnumber Iron Legion. Also your analogy makes literally no sense. I cannot even fathom in what universe that would make sense. A given acre can produce more calories useable to an omnivore than to a carnivore. That’s all I’ve said and made educated guesses with. ///There’s no point continuing this line of thought if you cannot differentiate such a simple concept.

If you don’t have the ability to see the relationship between your educated guess on population based on diet and my example of two societies that have different diets but populations that defy your “eduacated” guess …… you may have to resort to personal attacks. /shrug

-So common people were still called to the land’s defense and still self-organized themselves for common defense. You haven’t refuted anything.

Your link supported what I already said, so I pointed it out. What you can’t seem to gasp is that common people defending themselves isn’t always a militia.

-I’m way too tired and frustrated from explaining simple things for this… The warlords are heavily armed, many of these villages are not. They have nothing to fight back with and in the places they can fight back, you have civil wars and oh look at that, civil wars are all over Africa where warlords and governments get pushback.

Again, you reiterate what I already said. Do you even know what your point is anymore?

-You are completely not understanding the point. They were fighting to conquer and then rule. They were fighting over borders because those borders determined who controlled the resources. In the case of centaur in GW2 and the Plains tribes in the American West it is completely different because they don’t give a flying kitten about borders and are trying to drive the humans/settlers out. If such simple concepts elude you this discussion is never going to go anywhere.

You seem to have trouble keeping basic points of conversation straight.

-It makes sense for people to organize a militia in the absence or lacking of any other protective presence, specifically in the case such as this where the enemy doesn’t want to conquer and rule but to displace or at worst (and nearly as likely) kill. Has this still not gotten through to you? The point there was that if the Seraph aren’t doing their jobs and these are lands held by nobles there is no reason for the nobles to not have their own hired guards to defend their property if not an organized militia from the commoners.

I makes sense to do so yet doesn’t always happen for a variety a reasons. “If such simple concepts elude you this discussion is never going to go anywhere”.

-The peasantry in GW2 appears to be much better off than those in feudal Europe. Unless you are implying that the common person who can own a farm or shop cannot even afford a bow and some arrows there is no way they wouldn’t organize some kind of defense if Seraph are insufficient. Again, we are not talking about a medieval lord marching his army into a neighboring lord’s territory so he can rule over conquered peoples. We are talking about a hostile race of barbarians who will kill you if you do not get out of the way fast enough. We see tons of refugees, which would make up the people running from the fighting, and we also see people sticking it out in contested areas. The only reason these people would be sticking it out is because they either can’t leave (highly unlikely if so many others have been able to) or they feel secure enough to do so. There is just no logical reason for people standing in the face indiscriminate destruction to lie down and take it when they know what is going to happen.

They may not be able to afford it. they may not have the training. They may try to lay low and hope the troubles doen’t find them. Any number of reasons that happen in RL.

-IRL Africa there are militias that fight back the warlords. What do you think all those kitten civil wars are? I have no idea why you keep pointing to Africa as a glimmering beacon of “no militias” when the place is overrun with them.

I’m done. I cannot explain things in more drawn out simplistic words.

Clearly you’ve proven that all villages fight back against the warlords so that they are only victimized after they’ve lost a battle. /eyeroll You can’t explain things when you constantly build strawmen to rebut rather than address what I am actually saying. Or maybe you build the starwmen because you can’t address them. To clarify, I’m not saying militias never happen. What I have said is that they don’t always happen for a variety of reasons. You can’t win this one because I have such a simple truth on my side.

Dustfinger.9510:

If you don’t have the ability to see the relationship between your educated guess on population based on diet and my example of two societies that have different diets but populations that defy your “eduacated” guess …… you may have to resort to personal attacks. /shrug

Godkitten it how can you not understand this. I’m not talking about different societies, I’m talking about different species. I’m also not comparing the end consumer but what any given acre could support, that’s it. Why is it so kitten hard to understand that you need more acreage to raise cattle than to grow the equivalent calories in crop? That’s the entire basis of my thinking. That’s what you keep trying to “refute”. That you need more acreage to raise an arbitrary amount of meat calories than you would say wheat. That’s it, and you’re running around talking about comparing Chicago to a village for some reason when what I’m discussing is the difference between a corn field and cattle ranch. Then you sit there stupefied that I’m getting frustrated with you.

Also I’m having such a hard time following your line of thought because it is kitten nonsensical. The whole crux of the problem originates here:

I’d guess the reason all human populations aren’t militia is because humans just aren’t geared to mostly be militant.

My argument had nothing to do with the people living in safety behind city walls or in/near garrisons or becoming refugees and fleeing to such places. All of my examples and discussions have been about the people who willingly tried to make a living in dangerous territory. My original point had nothing to even do with militias, just that they were armed. The whole point of bringing up the mandatory militias in the early American colonies when the presence of British military forces was scant was to point out that people in real life in that very similar situation reacted that way. You’re the one who keeps taking the argument and running around to unrelated things consistently trying to separate the discussion from the original comment. That’s how you discuss fictional or hypothetical situations, you look to the most similar actual historical occurrences and draw conclusions from that. When historians hypothesize the feasibility of kitten Germany invading Britain in 1940, they don’t go looking at Operation Barbarossa they look at Operation Overlord for the real world obstacles and solutions.

Lostwingman.5034:

We see hints of rifle armed militia in Claypool, I’m wondering why the entire Krytan rural population isn’t armed as such at the least.

Who is the one who went dragging the conversation into the feudal system and comparing to wars between ruling lords which are nothing like the conflicts at a fundamental level in the American West and the Centaur here? You from the start did not understand the fundamental difference in both the type of conflicts those are and the type of environments those are and it has been a monumental struggle to try to pull them back. It sure is easy to sit there and go “oh, you can’t keep these points straight!” when you’re the one constantly pitching unrelatable situations into the argument. The kitten feudal territorial wars are not kitten analogous to either the American colonial expansion or the Centaur war. This is why I’m pitching a fit.

You sit there whining about, “but I already showed not everyone would join a militia!” and dismissing that I’ve already addressed that those people are the refugees and the ones seeking shelter with the Seraph. Even using your nonsensical summoning of the African comparison, you have huge numbers of refugees there of people fleeing. My point of discussion centered on the people who still willingly lived spitting distance from and in the ruins of Centaur raids. My original point of conjecture on this whole thing was that even Claypool, relatively safe in comparison to many such places, sees fit to raise a militia. Looking at the in lore and in world reaction of people in that world is it not logical to wonder if such a reaction would be more widespread?

Your constant inability or refusal to differentiate the fundamental differences between what I’m trying to discuss and what you keep deflecting to is maddening. The difference between a feudal lord invading another feudal lord in medieval Europe is fundamentally different from Plains Indians trying to drive the settlers out. There is a reason I looked to that situation to draw parallels, and not to feudal lords. Either you are being intentionally dishonest for no discernible or you simply don’t understand. At this point, I don’t care which it is because the result is the same frustration of trying to point out the circle peg doesn’t go into the triangle slot.

Nobody wins; Asura make a ridiculously powerful weapon they lose control of and all life on Tyria is wiped out.

they make it because the legions are closing in.

Oldyoung.6109:

Nobody wins; Asura make a ridiculously powerful weapon they lose control of and all life on Tyria is wiped out.

they make it because the legions are closing in.

Actually there is an example from the Asura personal story of a single Asura using steam creatures to take over an alternate future.

In a fantasy game it is possible for anything to happen. A single necromancer could take over the world with an undead army. Another Scarlet might raise a steampunk army (and win this time). An Asura might invent a doomsday device and blow up the planet. A Charr might go all Napoleon and conquer the world with brilliant use of mobile artillery.

SPOILER: Abaddon did it!

A few comments:

I don’t recall where it was, but I do recall a conversation in Divinity’s Reach somewhere where concern is expressed about how to feed the population with so much farmland lost to centaurs. However, that conversation may be ‘set’ right after the battle of Shaemoor, and not really relevant to most circumstances we’d realistically consider.

Second, people have actually done the figures. It takes about eight to ten times as much arable land to grow the same number of calories in livestock as you could with a high-yield plant crop. Livestock can, however, have the advantage if the land is poor enough that plant crops suitable for a human population (or whatever the local sapients are) can’t grow, but grazing for a herd is available. (From my observation, incidentally, I would rate Ascalon as it is currently as less fertile than Kryta – it’s recovered somewhat from the Searing, but it’s not as lush as it used to be or as Kryta is now).

Regarding militias – actually, England had an informal militia going back at least to the early 1300s, when archery practice once a week was compulsory for all able-bodied commoners. Reason being, of course, since that meant that when they were drafted into an army, they could be given a bow (assuming they didn’t bring their own) and be effective soldiers (generally more effective than equivalent conscripts from other nations).

However, Lostwingman is generally right here. In conflicts between feudal lords and nations, invaders generally weren’t much interested in killing the populace. Back then, most common folk had more loyalty to their village than their nation or overlord – if the overlord changed, as long as they weren’t too heavily oppressed they’ll just continue living under the new overlord. From the invader’s perspective, why wipe out the existing population when it could serve you (for a lot of Europe’s history up to the aforementioned Age of Exploration, Europe was actually relatively underpopulated compared to the Middle East, which made people more valuable)? And from the commoner’s perspective, if you can avoid being conscripted, why fight and possibly die for one overlord when from your perspective they’re pretty much interchangeable?

An enemy like the centaurs that is pretty much looking to kill you all, though… that’s a very different kettle of fish. If they’re around, you either 1) have a sufficient force of defenders to protect you; 2) leave; 3) arm yourself, or 4) have no sense of self-preservation.

Lostwingman.5034:

Godkitten it how can you not understand this. I’m not talking about different societies,—-some stuff—-parallels, and not to feudal lords. Either you are being intentionally dishonest for no discernible or you simply don’t understand. At this point, I don’t care which it is because the result is the same frustration of trying to point out the circle peg doesn’t go into the triangle slot.

So let’s forget all the little tangents that apparently have nothing to do with the conversation and we’ll break it down to it’s barest elements.

-You said, the human communities should all be militarized because that’s what people do IRL.

-My response to that is that it doesn’t always happen. That’s a fact. For a myriad of reasons, throughout history, all over the world, it doesn’t always happen. Basic truth.

-You pointing out instances when it does happen doesn’t suddenly cause all the times when it doesn’t happen to cease to exist. And as long as there are times when people don’t militarize, even while under threat, then it makes communities in tyria that don’t, plausible. Because out of all those myriad of reasons for people not to do it, only one needs to apply to any one community in tyria at a time.

There. No examples for us to try to compare to the conversation. No analogies. That’s the basics of the conversation without all the tangents.

edit: also, making a definite speculation about population comparison based purely on diet is impossible. There are too many unknowns and unaccounted for factors. You would need to know exactly how much maximum resource possibility is being practiced in each situation. We have none of that. That’s all I was trying to say, initially. There, now we can be friends, again.

draxynnic.3719:

An enemy like the centaurs that is pretty much looking to kill you all, though… that’s a very different kettle of fish. If they’re around, you either 1) have a sufficient force of defenders to protect you; 2) leave; 3) arm yourself, or 4) have no sense of self-preservation.

All of this is generally true. So I accounted for it earlier in my posts when I described how they might use their hunting rifles, pitchforcks, etc. for basic protection. But that doesn’t equate to a militarization. The homesteaders faced Native American tribes who did kill all whites they came across without always having the protection of an organized organized military force. They were brave. They defended themselves as best they could but often times their meager individual defense simply wasn’t enough. But they continued to settle. When they had the backing of a nearby military fort it definitely made life easier but not all homesteaders had that luxury.