Guild Wars 2

Forming a militia when there is virtually no other protective presence in vulnerable and hostile territory is not “militarization”. Hell, forming a militia in any circumstance is not militarization. You have such a flawed understanding of reality that there was no hope for this discussion in the first place. This is not a topic you are evidently capable of understanding.

It’s kind of surprising that humans have done so well against centaurs really. Historically, armoured knights (which is what centaurs basically are) tended to trample over most infantry. Only well trained spearman generally stood a chance, and then only if the knights made a frontal assault.

Lostwingman.5034:

Forming a militia when there is virtually no other protective presence in vulnerable and hostile territory is not “militarization”. Hell, forming a militia in any circumstance is not militarization. You have such a flawed understanding of reality that there was no hope for this discussion in the first place. This is not a topic you are evidently capable of understanding.

A militia is a body of citizen soldiers. Militarization is the pursuit of military ideals. So organizing a soldiery even made up of citizen soldiers is a form of militarization. Clearly you project your limits onto others.

BlackGhostz.2483:

Yeah, anything big in this game honestly is a target not an asset. One might look at a big Charr or Norn in heavy armor and think wow how could a puny human stand up to that? But in reality in this game Skritt and Asura warriors can go toe to toe with enemies much larger than them.

Nope.

A Skritt or asura warrior would never stand a chance in a toe to toe fight against a charr, ogre, norn, or such.

My norn guardians hammer head, ingame, probably is the same size as an asura’s body. Ingame most Asura reach her knees, and that’s it.

You really think if she swung her hammer and it impacted with an Asura, that the asura would be anything other then a collasped and crumpled corpse? Much less a skritt.

Skritt overwhelm with numbers. Asura, with magic or golems. Asura don’t have martial ability to effectively fight off a Norn. Hell, I’d wager the asura peacemakers and the inquest melee fighters mainly fight each other, and not beings such as charr, norn, or such on a normal basis. An asura commented about even the hylek as being able to fit an Asura whole into their mouths…

YES, perhaps a skilled, smart, and very well equipped Asura might beat an Ettin or Ogre or such in combat, but not toe to toe, face to face single fighting.

Wanderer.3248:

Oglaf.1074:

Lore-wise, Norn characters would be at least ten times as powerful as a character of any other race.

Poison, a knife in their sleep, a shot from the snowy knoll… they can be killed just as easily as any mortal.

People seem to have this weird idea that physical strength and ability in single combat means anything in an era of gunpowder and airships.

The Norn are relics.

Poison might take longer, or not be as effective. Hell, you might have to use even more poison to the point where it’s obvious the drink or food is poisoned.

Knife, you’d have to be fast and hard, and hit exactly to one shot them. Otherwise they’ll react and crush you after you stab them and fail. Shot from the far hill, again, depends on the weapon and where it hits. Norn are very, very tough compared to humans, so something that might kill a human probably wouldn’t phase a norn.

People seem to have this weird idea that gunpowder magically means you can kill anything. :P Oh, and the Norn have guns as well. Meaning their greater strength and durability means they can use larger, heavier rifles with far more punch in each shot, because they can better handle the recoil.

Or… well, Mai Trin’s first officer, or the Aetherblade cannoner from battle for LA. Norn can use a literal cannon as a shoulder mounted weapon. Nobody else can :P.

I think the larger Charr could probably pull it off as well. Remember the gigantic Molten Berserker? He could probably dual-wield cannons. XD

On asura versus norn: Yoda would have words with you there. The asura has the advantage of being smaller, faster, more agile – possibly squishy if you get a direct hit with a hammer bigger than it is, but such big, heavy hammers are likely to be slow in comparison. The asura warrior may also be equipped with asura inventions that improve their strength and toughness, such as power armour, some chemical kittentail, or simply leveraging magic into it.

It’s also worth noting here that, as a general rule, there is a roughly inverse relationship between physical size and strength and magical leanings among the playable races. Warriors have been noted to use magic in an instinctive, internal fashion to augment their strength – a heroic human might be able to stand against a heroic norn because they have more magic to augment their lower physical strength. Of course, a higher proportion of the norn population is heroic compared to the other playable races… but on the other hand, norn are less organised as a group, and realistically speaking they’d probably have a lower population as well.

On guns, poisons, knives and so on – it’s true that they aren’t sure kills, but they are good equalisers. And being the biggest of the races can have downsides too…

Zaxares.5419:

I think the larger Charr could probably pull it off as well. Remember the gigantic Molten Berserker? He could probably dual-wield cannons. XD

99.999999999% sure the molten Bersker and the firestorm are dealt the “raid boss size” hammer.

No other Charr, or Dredge even comes close to that size. Likely made huge just so we can see them easier.

Like how in story CoF, the final charr boss has the huge flame image, but really is quite small :P But, yeah maybe large end charr might pull it off, but I don’t think they could as easily.

draxynnic.3719:

On asura versus norn: Yoda would have words with you there. The asura has the advantage of being smaller, faster, more agile – possibly squishy if you get a direct hit with a hammer bigger than it is, but such big, heavy hammers are likely to be slow in comparison. The asura warrior may also be equipped with asura inventions that improve their strength and toughness, such as power armour, some chemical kittentail, or simply leveraging magic into it.

Yoda has the advantage of using the force to become a pinball of death.

Asura can’t match that agility.

Also, unlike Yoda who wields a blade that will slice through nearly everything, Asura do not. Their blades have to pierce through armor, heavy, thick armor if talking about a Norn wearing decent armor.

They can’t strike the head, shoulders, or chunks of the chest either, not without knocking the Norn down or taking a leg out, which will be hard to do without getting hit in return.

Also, faster not really. A norn could break into a sprint and leave the asura coughing in the dust. And the Norn doesn’t have to hit with the hammer either. A good kick will cause serious damage. Course, meaning faster as in swinging blades, Asura also would probably get tired faster. Especially since we know for a fact they’d rather sit back and let golems do all the labor work, or others instead of them.

Again, yeah, Asura might deal damage, but NOT in a face to face, straight up fight. They’d use their brains. :P Asura vs Norn require human vs giant tactics basically. You don’t see a human charging a giant with a sword in a face to face battle and winning do you?

The Firestorm might be large simply by virtue of the giant suit he’s in. The Berserker, maybe his increased size is a result of some obscure Flame Legion magic or a Scarlet serum he’s been given?

But yeah, it’s entirely possible it’s just “raid boss size mechanics”, similar to what Scarlet got during the Breachmaker battle.

Also, while I agree an unarmored, unassisted Asura with a sword realistically would have no hope of beating that unarmored, unassisted Norn with a sword, an Asura in full powered battle armor versus a Norn in full plate armor probably would be an equal match, depending on the quality of the powered armor.

If they have ‘powered armor’ that isn’t a golem suit.

Something I’ll note I’ve never heard of them being stated to have. :P

Possible? Maybe… but I don’t think they’ve ever talked about such :P

edit: By that I mean like heavy armor which boosts their abilities by a LOT, but isn’t actually a golem like suit akin to the firestorm suit, scruffy, etc. (You see an Asura in a firestorm suit in aetherpath).

Asura animations actually do seem to be somewhat Yoda-inspired, especially their ‘flurry’ style attacks, where they leap up into the air and hovor while delivering their attacks. Asura cultural heavy armour, particularly at tier 3, certainly looks to me as if it’s magically augmented, possibly to the point of being to a golem suit as power armour is to a mechanised walker… while asura cultural weapons such as Glyphic and Peacemaker’s sets look to me like, while they may not be full on lightsabers, they ARE akin to WH40K-style power weapons: the solid blade or other ‘striking surface’ is merely there as the generator for an energy field which is what is actually doing the damage. Not a lightsaber per se, but certainly more advanced than a sharpened piece of metal.

You’re also ignoring the observation that warriors use magic to augment their physical strength on a subconscious level… which is canon. Asura are typically a more magical race than norn, so it’s likely that an asura warrior is going to have more magic to close the purely physical gap even without magitech.

Of course, most asura aren’t going to be melee warriors, let alone charging the typical norn one-on-one. However, exceptional asura equipped with a suite of asura inventions to boost their melee capabilities probably are a match for exceptional norn equipped with the products of high-quality conventional blacksmithing. Plus, even as the second least organised race, asura are still better at working together on the whole than norn are.

A: Yes, but they don’t even approach the levels of agility that Yoda has. Also their jumping is just as high as a Norn (in animation/distance) and their run speed is the same, in gameplay. But in canon it’s nowhere near the same. I recall reading an Asura had to walk fast to keep up with a walking human, while a norn walking away they’d had to run to keep pace.
B: Looks, but is never stated. Again, while it’s possibly something they CAN do with their tech/magic, we never hear of such. I’m simply pointing out that you can’t factual say they have ‘power armor’ for sure, as you can’t source it. (outside of the actual golems with a control seat inside). Also the fact Asura are physically lazy, making underlings or golems do the physical labor (carrying boxes or equipment), so I don’t see them making a personal suit of heavy armor which augments them heavily. OH, and the fact I don’t recall seeing many peacemakers in tier 3 cultural heavy… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/d/d7/Peacemaker_Chief_Grumm.jpg http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/0/0c/Peacemaker_Bruntt.jpg Heck, not even Phlunt’s bodyguards wear cultural heavy armor :P
C: Perhaps. but I don’t believe a subconscious level buff will equalize the playing field THAT much.
D: Yes, an Asura warrior working inside or alongside a Golem and/or golem suit akin to the siege golems or scruffy could possibly take on a Norn. But that’s not a straight up toe to toe fight.
E: I’d actually say they’d be more likely to argue with each other until the last second as opposed to Norn. Heck, if you talk to the arcane council members, the Inquest rep makes the comment that HE is the one who actually gets funding and supplies to projects and keeps things moving while the rest of the council bickers endlessly.

Overall, it’s noted that Asura are a BRAINS, not BRAWN race. Why go to the effort of making himself a fancy armor that buffs all his abilities, when he can simply make a golem carry the box around for far less effort and cost from himself? (speaking from an asura viewpoint). Then he can go work on a new megalaser system or golem, or portal, etc.

Kalavier.1097:

If they have ‘powered armor’ that isn’t a golem suit.

Something I’ll note I’ve never heard of them being stated to have. :P

Possible? Maybe… but I don’t think they’ve ever talked about such :P

edit: By that I mean like heavy armor which boosts their abilities by a LOT, but isn’t actually a golem like suit akin to the firestorm suit, scruffy, etc. (You see an Asura in a firestorm suit in aetherpath).

Yeah, I was referring to their Cultural armor. The Electromagnetic armor looks like it could be armor that’s strengthened with magic, like a powered armor suit. And of course, lore-wise an Asura in a Power Suit (elite skill) could theoretically match a Norn in raw strength, depending on the quality of the suit.

Kalavier:

Pretty much all your points are regarding to the typical asura. It’s been conceded long ago that the typical norn is probably stronger than the typical… well, ANY of the playable races. (Which is balanced, on a strategic level, by their inability to organise.) An asura who becomes a warrior is not a typical asura to begin with – the point is that at the top end (you know, around the level of PCs and other powerful heroes such as Destiny’s Edge) an asura could be a match for a norn, due to having developed a fighting style that employs the advantages of their small size, augmenting their physical strength through various means, and so on.

Regarding asura arguing: Asura are certainly the next most disorganised race, but asura are still used to working in krewes and larger groups while the fundamental unit for norn is a single norn, and as ineffective as the Arcane Council can be, that they have an overall governing body at ALL is a big step up from the norn. Knut went to the summit because he’s the closest the norn have, but in terms of actual authority, it wouldn’t be too unfair to compare him to a glorified innkeeper.

draxynnic.3719:

Kalavier:

Pretty much all your points are regarding to the typical asura. It’s been conceded long ago that the typical norn is probably stronger than the typical… well, ANY of the playable races. (Which is balanced, on a strategic level, by their inability to organise.) An asura who becomes a warrior is not a typical asura to begin with – the point is that at the top end (you know, around the level of PCs and other powerful heroes such as Destiny’s Edge) an asura could be a match for a norn, due to having developed a fighting style that employs the advantages of their small size, augmenting their physical strength through various means, and so on.

Regarding asura arguing: Asura are certainly the next most disorganised race, but asura are still used to working in krewes and larger groups while the fundamental unit for norn is a single norn, and as ineffective as the Arcane Council can be, that they have an overall governing body at ALL is a big step up from the norn. Knut went to the summit because he’s the closest the norn have, but in terms of actual authority, it wouldn’t be too unfair to compare him to a glorified innkeeper.

I really do not get you all there was a event in a book were a charr beat the crap out of a drunk Norn which is a normal thing for a Norn to be so why do all of you people still say that a Norn is stronger and is not a a thing that proved that they are not the strongest race.

they are the strongest race individually (on average), just not as strong as some people make them out to be.

A Norn’s beverage of choice might be alcohol, but that doesn’t mean they’re drunk 24/7.

It’s been stated lorewise in gw1 that a single Norn can takedown a Charr warband. This might have changed a bit in the last 250 years, but the general rule is still 1v1 is heavily in the Norn’s favor, while any sort of organized combat will go to the Charr.

Erukk.1408:

A Norn’s beverage of choice might be alcohol, but that doesn’t mean they’re drunk 24/7.

It’s been stated lorewise in gw1 that a single Norn can takedown a Charr warband. This might have changed a bit in the last 250 years, but the general rule is still 1v1 is heavily in the Norn’s favor, while any sort of organized combat will go to the Charr.

Think about it being drunk that big of a disadvantage? Many on this forum have probably been drunk in their life and they could tell you that you have a bigger resistance to pain in that state and you are quite unpredictable but to be fair you have a bad balance when you are drunk. to bad its a work day or else I would have checked it to say for sure:).

only i can think off is that norn is the strongest race atm yes even 10x stronger then charr if it comes to pure STR

but both are not that smart compare to human and azura
azura will out smart all 3 other races by far

but the human race as many no are with much more
just say 100k humans vs 50k charrs ore norns

so its hard to tell
Charr have brute power with there machines
Norn are insane strong and can shape shift to and don’t forget the Ale :p
Azura need to be smart
and Humans are just a all round race good in everything but not ubber strong in all things

thats how i think

I think if anyone were to go to war, it would be the Charr. We have proof from the past that they have been known to engage in battle. They would be most likely to go to war with the Humans.

Since the Charr would be fighting the Humans, if they needed help, they would most likely form an alliance with the Centaur because they also hate the Humans. However, it would be a tough alliance because the Centaur are hostile to nearly all races, even other Centaur tribes. There would need to be something to provoke their alliance. Maybe if the Centaur were in danger of extinction from the Humans.

If said alliance were to occur, the Charr and Centaur would most likely overtake the Humans.

Kalavier.1097:

A: Yes, but they don’t even approach the levels of agility that Yoda has.

Lol, when you start making comparisons with Star Wars characters you know all sensible debate has left the building.

Tom.8029:

I think if anyone were to go to war, it would be the Charr. We have proof from the past that they have been known to engage in battle. They would be most likely to go to war with the Humans.

Since the Charr would be fighting the Humans, if they needed help, they would most likely form an alliance with the Centaur because they also hate the Humans. However, it would be a tough alliance because the Centaur are hostile to nearly all races, even other Centaur tribes. There would need to be something to provoke their alliance. Maybe if the Centaur were in danger of extinction from the Humans.

If said alliance were to occur, the Charr and Centaur would most likely overtake the Humans.

The humans beat the char long ago. The Char were beating the humans because of the influence of Abaddon. The Charr cast that off however. They are too factionalized now to prove the threat they were before, yet humans are more united than ever. Even if the Charr did go back to the Flame Legion, they wouldn’t have the backing of the Titans.

Rukh.9287:

Tom.8029:

I think if anyone were to go to war, it would be the Charr. We have proof from the past that they have been known to engage in battle. They would be most likely to go to war with the Humans.

Since the Charr would be fighting the Humans, if they needed help, they would most likely form an alliance with the Centaur because they also hate the Humans. However, it would be a tough alliance because the Centaur are hostile to nearly all races, even other Centaur tribes. There would need to be something to provoke their alliance. Maybe if the Centaur were in danger of extinction from the Humans.

If said alliance were to occur, the Charr and Centaur would most likely overtake the Humans.

The humans beat the char long ago. The Char were beating the humans because of the influence of Abaddon. The Charr cast that off however. They are too factionalized now to prove the threat they were before, yet humans are more united than ever. Even if the Charr did go back to the Flame Legion, they wouldn’t have the backing of the Titans.

I meant another war.

Also, upon further thought, it is worth noting that as of right now, all we are aware of is the Black and Flame Citadels. We haven’t taken into account the Charr forces for the Blood and Iron legions. I don’t think we know of their exact locations, but I do believe they are located someone North/Northeast of Ascalon on Tyria. Whereas the closest Humans we are aware of are in Elona (All major concentrations of Humans on Tyria are either in Kryta or Ebonhawke). Seeing as we aren’t allowed to consider races/forces on continents other than Tyria, I do believe the Charr most likely still outnumber the Humans.

adormtil.1605:

I really do not get you all there was a event in a book were a charr beat the crap out of a drunk Norn which is a normal thing for a Norn to be so why do all of you people still say that a Norn is stronger and is not a a thing that proved that they are not the strongest race.

There’s also an event in a book where one unarmed flabby female norn took on three armed charr that ambushed her.

It is a lore fact that norn are the strongest individual playable race. But I think this topic is really to do with the racial society vs the other racial sociaties. Rather than individuals against individuals.

if you see it for a very long run the norn wil win
A norn might live to 120 and maintain their good health and vitality for a long time

that make the norn very mighty even if they are 60 to 80 years old like Eir they stil have the power of a young norn

so they even can send old pll in battle

^How long does a charr lives?

so far i figure out same ore a bit younger then humans
but all die fast because its a war race and only thinking about war

Azura live so 5 to 10 % longer then humans

adormtil.1605:

draxynnic.3719:

Kalavier:

Pretty much all your points are regarding to the typical asura. It’s been conceded long ago that the typical norn is probably stronger than the typical… well, ANY of the playable races. (Which is balanced, on a strategic level, by their inability to organise.) An asura who becomes a warrior is not a typical asura to begin with – the point is that at the top end (you know, around the level of PCs and other powerful heroes such as Destiny’s Edge) an asura could be a match for a norn, due to having developed a fighting style that employs the advantages of their small size, augmenting their physical strength through various means, and so on.

Regarding asura arguing: Asura are certainly the next most disorganised race, but asura are still used to working in krewes and larger groups while the fundamental unit for norn is a single norn, and as ineffective as the Arcane Council can be, that they have an overall governing body at ALL is a big step up from the norn. Knut went to the summit because he’s the closest the norn have, but in terms of actual authority, it wouldn’t be too unfair to compare him to a glorified innkeeper.

I really do not get you all there was a event in a book were a charr beat the crap out of a drunk Norn which is a normal thing for a Norn to be so why do all of you people still say that a Norn is stronger and is not a a thing that proved that they are not the strongest race.

Do you mean Ember and Gullik? I just read over the section, and Gullik was holding his own despite being genuinely drunk (as opposed to just having had a couple) and effectively disarmed. (‘Course, lorewise, a charr is never effectively disarmed – however, Gullik didn’t go bearform on Ember either, so he wasn’t fighting at full strength – lorewise norn are more powerful in animal form even if that’s not necessarily the case ingame.)

You’ll also note that I’m talking about averages. Half my point has been that exceptional individuals buck the trends, and that at the top end norn actually do seem to come out the same as other races – an exceptional charr can beat a norn one-on-one just as an exceptional human can beat a charr. The distinction is that norn are used to solo adventuring – they either get good or they die an early death. Charr are soldiers, but they’re used to fighting as a unit, so there’s less pressure for each individual to excel – where a norn might take on a dangerous threat individually, the charr will send a warband.

The averages of other races scale down from there because they have physically able noncombatants, while the expectation among charr and norn is that every able-bodied individual is at least capable of fighting even if they normally do something else. However, as societies they tend to have other advantages to compensate.

(It’s also worth noting that lorewise basically all norn have access to their animal form unless they’re Sons of Svanir. Other races are less likely to have elite skills by default. While lore/mechanics comparisons are dangerous as a rule, one could thus conclude that the typical norn is higher than level 30 (sidekicked up or down as appropriate for the zone), while the typical member of other races is lower.)

Skritt win, they get the shinies off the battlefield.

Well the charr are still the strongest race and nation as they have the most powerful millitary the second most advance technology and the race that was hit the less from the elder dragons power.

They also have probably the least magic (note: this is NOT saying that they don’t use it, but we see too much fluff about them distrusting magic and looking for alternatives to expect that not to be an overall weak point) and are a competitor for having the most problems. (Mind you, that seems to be a trend – the factions that you’d otherwise expect to be the strongest also tend to have the most enemies.)

^This the burden of the strong for example The Roman empire during Trajan was the strongest empire in the world defeating its long hated rival the Parthian Empire but that was its peak and during that time it had huge rebellion that were supressed but even at its peak it had problems a lot of them. Now the charr had their peak when they defeated Ascalon and were a huge treat for all human kingdoms but even then they lost 1/4 of their army if not more they lost in Orr and Kryta and then they lost their shamans their gods their magic using warriors and their expansion was halted and now after 200 years ago after all those losses they have most of their territory safe from what we know they are very close to get rid of the ghosts their biggest enemies.
Now for example the Norn lost their land they lost a battle against Jormag a great hit to their pride and they are more or less in a civil war. The humans are fighting the centaurs very close to Divinity’s Reach their own capital, the Azura are well in a civil war and so competitive with each other and very corrupt the thing that makes them not as strong as the charr is that they are not very keen on the millitary. And the Sylvari well the thing is with them is that they have less numbers then the other major races but give another 20 years and they will be the strongest.

I think in this case it’s less ‘burden of the strong’ and more because they have more territory to attack, and their actions in the past have gained them enemies that cannot be negotiated with (the Ascalonian ghosts). However, between Flame Legion insurrection, ghosts, Seperatists, ogres, harpies, grawl, and the Brand, I certainly wouldn’t call their territory safe.

In fact, if you look more at what’s happening in the Living Story than at the maps themselves (which are mostly frozen in time) Kryta seems to be much more secure than it was. It obviously wasn’t practical for ArenaNet to remove the centaurs from Queensdale, but dispatching a force to Dry Top to investigate copper smuggling is not the action of a nation with the enemy still knocking on the gates of its capital.

When it comes to civil wars… the charr are actually probably the most clear-cut case of being in such, with the war between the Flame Legion and the others, although since the charr regard the legions almost as seperate nations, this may be more of a conventional war. The sylvari are a contender there, and the norn provided you consider them as a nation that can have a civil war in the first place.

Humans and asura… not really. You have infighting and skullduggery, yes, but the Inquest is still formally an asura college, and Caudecus’ faction in the Ministry is not openly fighting the throne. Proxy conflict through bandits, especially as supported by centaurs, comes close, but that’s essentially Caudecus playing chicken with Kryta – he’s doing it because he’s confident that Kryta is actually strong enough that when he stops helping the enemy, he’ll be able to decisively beat the centaurs despite the damage he’s already helped them do. From a certain point of view, Kryta might actually be more secure than the Iron Legion’s territory – Kryta’s crises are manufactured as part of political games, while the threats to the charr in Ascalon are genuine.

Strictly speaking, if you added everything up, charr are probably the strongest – but they have no spare capacity for foreign adventures (while, apparently, Kryta has at least some) and do not seem to have significantly improved their security situation since the truce (while Kryta does seem to have). Certainly, any advantage they do have is not decisive.

Charr do NOT have the strongest military. Again, they may have had the strongest military when they were the subjects of the Titans. But since then they have become fractured. They cast off the shaman caste that held a lot of their power. They’re still strong, but not the force that invaded Ascalon and Orr. The Charr are quite a bit weaker than they were at their height, and humans are much stronger than they were at their lowpoint.

What really makes the races strong though is their integration with each other.

The Charr have a bigger territory then any of the races and while I have no definite proof its seems the blood legion and ash legion territory is safe since their imperators are actually all in the Black Citadel you would thing that if their territory is in danger they would have been at there.

Strictly speaking, if you added everything up, charr are probably the strongest – but they have no spare capacity for foreign adventures (while, apparently, Kryta has at least some) and do not seem to have significantly improved their security situation since the truce (while Kryta does seem to have). Certainly, any advantage they do have is not decisive.

Its probably the case that humans are closer to Dry Top then the charr I do not know why didn’t the Sylvari sent a expedition there but they have 20 years as a race with most like under 10 years of age. And the Azura still send an expedition well the Inquest part but they did.

Rukh.9287:

Charr do NOT have the strongest military. Again, they may have had the strongest military when they were the subjects of the Titans. But since then they have become fractured. They cast off the shaman caste that held a lot of their power. They’re still strong, but not the force that invaded Ascalon and Orr. The Charr are quite a bit weaker than they were at their height, and humans are much stronger than they were at their lowpoint.

What really makes the races strong though is their integration with each other.

It doesn’t matter if a nation is as strong as it ever was or if it is at it’s strongest. e.g.: A grawl tribe may be at it’s strongest in history, that doesn’t mean it is the strongest nor does it mean it is stronger than the weakest playable race-nation. Out of all the playable races, who do you think has the strongest military?

I still say that the Charr have the strongest military. Their entire society is structured about being in a state of “total war”. Soldiers are the highest social rank. Promotion is done either through military appointment, or by challenging and overthrowing your direct superior. Farmers and artisans almost invariably work towards the greater goal of supplying the military with the food and equipment it needs to win battles. Professions and careers that do not support this are all but unheard of in Charr society. When was the last time you met a Charr artist or musician?

Furthermore, it’s stated that all Charr learn the basics of combat while in the fahrar. With the exception of the Norn (and only because I presume every Norn learns to hunt and is encouraged to battle worthy foes), no other race has that kind of basic military training for every one of its citizens.

So we have a society where every citizen knows how to fight, and is working towards keeping the Charr race as battle ready as possible. They are hindered by the fact that they have probably the biggest number of military threats, but if they didn’t have the Flame Legion, Branded and Ascalonian Ghosts to contend with, I’d say they’d be well poised to conquer the world if they wished to. (Of course, if the other races all allied against Charr aggression, I doubt they would win.)

I’d agree with Zaxares. It’s stated in Sea of Sorrows that all norn train to be heroic since childhood, but that heroism rarely translates into working in concert like the charr do. The entire charr society is a military branch. And excluding the Flame Legion nation, they have three entire military branches working in concert. Each with their own specialty but each also self contained and self sustaining.

I still find it odd how unredundant the Charr legions are, or rather overspecialized. Even if the individual legions excel or emphasize certain skillsets you would still expect each legion to have their subsets more prominently. Maybe it’s just a matter of presentation in game but I still find it difficult to imagine, for example, Blood Legion intelligence agents and Ash Legion foot soldiers.

If lets say the charr were in the place of Norns would they could have defeated Jormag?

adormtil.1605:

If lets say the charr were in the place of Norns would they could have defeated Jormag?

Since the whole point of the GW2 story is that it will take the combined strengths of the various races to stop the Elder Dragons I’m going to say no.

@Rukh: Actually, I would argue that humans in Tyria WERE at their lowest point at the start of GW2. The time after the Searing was bad, but Ascalon was still a going concern and Kryta was intact if under the domination of the White Mantle, and they still had contact with potential allies elsewhere (Cantha, Elona, possibly others). Throwing off the mursaat arguably strengthened them, but Ascalon continued deteriorating and ultimately fell. Ironically, depending on how you look at it, that might have actually lead to an overall strengthening as Kryta and Ebonhawke finally started presenting a united front with Adelbern out of the picture.

We don’t have a detailed history since then, but my gut feeling is that the local maximum then came before the Great Tsunami, as Kryta continued developing despite the war in Ascalon. Said Great Tsunami was a big hit, though, both to Kryta directly and cutting off trade and communications with other human nations, and Kryta only seems to have deteriorated since despite the founding of a replacement capital. After the events of the first half or so of the initial personal story, though, they seem to be bouncing back a bit, but they still have a fair way to go.

@adormtil: We’re given the reason the Seraph was out there – they were investigating a copper smuggling ring (which has now been pretty effectively shut down by Mordremoth). The point is, though, the fact that humans are out there shows that they do have the spare capacity to send an excursion out there. Meanwhile, in Dragons Reach, Smodur says “we can spare no one”. Kryta has at least SOME spare capacity because they’re already out there – the Iron Legion, if Smodur is to be believed, does not.

@Lostwingman: They’re not. We see engineers in legions other than Iron (Snarl and Galina come to mind), and plenty of fighters in legions other than Blood. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any spec-ops charr NPCs that aren’t Ash (unless Fyon the Wraith counts), but that doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t exist.

Kryta is not even half the charr territory that is so big that probably more then half of it is not even explorable right now. Its no wonder that the charr have no people to spare they have more to cover.

adormtil.1605:

Kryta is not even half the charr territory that is so big that probably more then half of it is not even explorable right now. Its no wonder that the charr have no people to spare they have more to cover.

Kryta seems larger than Iron Legion in terms of land area assuming the map is proportional. Also, was it just Iron Legion from whom forces were requested or Smodur as representative of all Legions?

Humans would def win. They have already kicked Charr kitten X times during for an exemple: Pre-Searing, Battle of Kyhlo and Foefire and Ascalonians are just amazing.
Also they have the True six gods on their side and they’re just even more awesome.

Norns will also be one of the top 2 races vs between this war. Mostly like they’re powerful and they got great structure on battles. Also their Spirit of the Wilds are helping them during this battle.

And why didn’t you included Sylvari into this War, by the way? :p

Rukh.9287:

Charr do NOT have the strongest military. Again, they may have had the strongest military when they were the subjects of the Titans. But since then they have become fractured. They cast off the shaman caste that held a lot of their power. They’re still strong, but not the force that invaded Ascalon and Orr. The Charr are quite a bit weaker than they were at their height, and humans are much stronger than they were at their lowpoint.

What really makes the races strong though is their integration with each other.

Alga.6498:

Humans would def win. They have already kicked Charr kitten X times during for an exemple: Pre-Searing, Battle of Kyhlo and Foefire and Ascalonians are just amazing.
Also they have the True six gods on their side and they’re just even more awesome.

Norns will also be one of the top 2 races vs between this war. Mostly like they’re powerful and they got great structure on battles. Also their Spirit of the Wilds are helping them during this battle.

And why didn’t you included Sylvari into this War, by the way? :p

Tl;Dr, the charr would win.

My money’s on the Asura. They’ve got the Gates, the Waypoints, and what are more or less mechs. Their technology is cleaner and more advanced than anyone else’s.

If the races went to war with each other, the Asura would be able to instantaneously travel anywhere in Tyria, while everyone is limited to travelling by foot or primitive motor vehicle.

Alkonium.9164:

My money’s on the Asura. They’ve got the Gates, the Waypoints, and what are more or less mechs. Their technology is cleaner and more advanced than anyone else’s.

If the races went to war with each other, the Asura would be able to instantaneously travel anywhere in Tyria, while everyone is limited to travelling by foot or primitive motor vehicle.

Might work on the Norn, humans, and Sylvari, but the Charr have the Adamant Guard poised to blow up their gate the moment anything with a hint of aggression steps through.

If the Sylvari are capable of controlling large quantities of natural life, like plants and magical stuff in the dirt, then the soundless would rendezvous and conquer Asuran territory and move to Human land, but by that time, would come face to face with industrialized Charr weaponry.

EDIT: The Soundless, not the followers of the Pale Tree: The Pale Tree is influenced by peace and projects what she wants her ‘children’ to see via dreams-something the Soundless aren’t a part of; I think I read about the Soundless being able to communicate to each other away from the Tree, meaning their anonymity could create a surprise attack against Humans and Asurans, probably not Norn, and almost definitely not when face-to-face with Charr

Isaac:

I think it’s fair to say that the charr are divided. The Flame Legion may be on the back foot, but how far they are on the back foot is still open to interpretation – the Molten Alliance shows they are still a going concern after Gaheron’s death, though. Either way, with one legion openly fighting against the other three, they’re less united than they were any time in GW1’s period. (Where, while there was some dissent against the shamans, it never got to the point of a legion’s worth of soldiers openly fighting against the others. Pyre’s objective seemed to be to break the myth of the Flame Legion being invincible, then have the dissent go completely underground, deferring the revolution until after the fall of Ascalon so it wouldn’t interfere with that war (as well as giving the rebellion more time to build up, such as by training females). This is a far cry from the Flame Legion rebellion which is putting their conflict with the other legions higher than the interests of the charr as a whole.)

Apart from that note, there are a few assumptions you’re making that I think significantly alter the scenario:

First, to put it on the record, you’re assuming that the charr technology can get through the Shiverpeaks in any reasonably efficient fashion.

Second, you’re assuming that nobody’s going to see this charr juggernaut coming and think ‘Maybe we should band together to stop this.’ The norn are the race that has the BEST relations with the charr – if the charr were to WTFstomp the norn, then there’s going to be nobody left thinking ‘oh, but we have a special relationship with the charr, they’re not going to turn on us’. At worst, the asura might stick their heads in the sand as they have a tendency to do, but I think that if the charr were to destroy their closest ally, then Kryta, Lion’s Arch, and the Grove would all get together to stop them

Of course, IIRC, this thread started with the premise of ‘no alliances’, so we move onto your next assumption:

You’re assuming that the war starts at a time of the charr’s choosing, when they’ve sorted out all of their problems. If we applied this metric to, say, Kryta, then they would no longer have a centaur or a bandit problem. With the elder dragons defeated, odds are pretty good we’d see communication opening up with other human nations such as Cantha, and if we’re generous enough to say that the charr have dealt with all their problems including ghosts, ogres and harpies, then we could see Elona restored to human rule as well. So, if hypothetically speaking your charr invasion can successfully besiege Divinity’s Reach while also keeping Ebonhawke contained (something that will take proportionally more military power from the charr than it does from the humans, but hey, if we’re assuming no alliances, we can probably also assume that the gates get shut down entirely), they’d have a much harder time in the face of a counterattack from Elona while also having to guard the South Krytan coast from Cantha. And heck, if we take the idea of things having gone perfectly for the charr up to the point the war starts, then extending a similar assumption for humans would mean the gods coming back with all their power, and, well, squish.

I’d agree that if we took all the assumptions you’ve made – that no alliances are formed, that the charr have been able to get into the perfect circumstances to launch the war while other races haven’t – then yeah, odds are the charr will probably win. But this is akin to ‘if we stack the deck as much as possible in one race’s favour, they’ll probably win’. I could, fairly simply, come up with similar stacked-deck scenarios that lead to victory for any of the other races… maybe even the norn.

Admittedly, there are probably less things that have to go right for the charr to reach full power than some other races… but on the other hand, if we were to give Kryta as much as a break as we’re giving to the charr, then I expect that the end result would be something that, at the very least, can hold up the defensive side of a war where the aggressor has a long supply line through mountainous terrain.