Clarification

Clarification

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

I’ve been arguing lore a lot since the recent sylvari reveal, and though I’ve been defending it tooth and claw, there are plenty of small details that muddy the issue a bit. I think there’s a lot that the writers need to clarify before we can all truly accept it. Some examples:

  • What are the differences between sylvari and true dragon minions? Konig has already listed several (for example, their ability to eat food). Are those intentional, and why are they there?
  • What is Mordremoth’s relationship to the Nightmare? We know he is related, but we’ve also seen his corrupted sleeper agents (namely Scarlet) reject them both.
  • Speaking of which, how does the Dream fit into this at all? I’ve interpreted it as a connection similar to the one shared by the post-Rite dwarves (with a few quirks and differences). Is that the correct interpretation? Are there details I’m missing?
  • Based on the last question, how does the White Stag fit in?
  • Is the cave with the Forgotten ruins the same one Ronan found all those years ago? I’ve been working on the assumption that it is based on a few peculiar coincidences, but some confirmation one way or the other would be nice.

I’m hoping that Jeff Grubb or someone on the writing team can saunter along and help clear these issues up. I think it would do a lot to help simplify the debate and cool some heads. IN THE NAME OF ABADDON, LORD OF THE EVERLASTING DEPTHS, KEEPER OF SECRETS, I SUMMON THEE!

…You know, if you’ve got time.

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

Sadly, there aren’t any clear and definite answers to any of these question yet.

There are a lot of strong supported theories right now, but since Anet is playing their Sylvari cards close to their chest at the moment, all those theories are still up in the air for now. Hopefully we will be getting a lot more information regarding these subjects in HoT (whenever that will come out).

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Posted by: Stephen.6312

Stephen.6312

  • What are the differences between sylvari and true dragon minions? Konig has already listed several (for example, their ability to eat food). Are those intentional, and why are they there? *

The sylvari born of the Pale Tree may have developed individuality as a result of the work of several contributing factors, not limited to but notably Ronan, Ventari, possibly the forgotten etc etc. As a result, engaging in activities similar to those of other “fully self-aware” races should be expected.

Perhaps another important question we need to ask ourselves is this: Is Anet giving us a hint about the origin of a number of races presently living in Tyria? Have other races evolved in the same way that sylvari are evolving, to the point that they are no longer truly dragon minions but individuals?

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Posted by: Koviko.3248

Koviko.3248

The Pale Tree was initially planted 250 years ago, right? Maybe tree minions are special, somehow. They do take 200 years to mature enough to sprout minions. I’m not sure if we have any timeline evidence for other Dragon champions (assuming this is in fact what the Pale Tree is and not just some “minion tree” that was never meant to be sentient in the first place).

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

  • What are the differences between sylvari and true dragon minions? Konig has already listed several (for example, their ability to eat food). Are those intentional, and why are they there? *

The sylvari born of the Pale Tree may have developed individuality as a result of the work of several contributing factors, not limited to but notably Ronan, Ventari, possibly the forgotten etc etc. As a result, engaging in activities similar to those of other “fully self-aware” races should be expected.

Perhaps another important question we need to ask ourselves is this: Is Anet giving us a hint about the origin of a number of races presently living in Tyria? Have other races evolved in the same way that sylvari are evolving, to the point that they are no longer truly dragon minions but individuals?

But dragon minions can’t evolve, because they can’t reproduce, and freed minions retain any physical changes from the corruption. It’s also been stated in Arah that the Forgotten ritual used to free minions is extremely costly. It certainly doesn’t help that the only Forgotten left live in the Crystal Desert (where they’re probably fighting Kralkatorrik—poor guys). I don’t think they’ll go down this path for other races, and I hope they don’t. I feel like doing this same thing twice is just lazy.

My true concern with that question isn’t ’what’s different?‘, but more ’why are they different?’ With the exception of minor details, Arenanet have always gone out of their way to give canon reasons for lore inconsistencies/retcons. It’s one of the reasons I’ve never had much sympathy for those who claim that Anet doesn’t respect the old lore—other writers in their position have been known to declare entire swathes of lore non-canon to give themselves breathing room (Warcraft, Star Wars), or else not coordinate with each other and leave the canon a broken mess (Marvel Comics, Star Wars again). The fact that those five are all I can come up with is actually pretty impressive.

And if they can write their way around it, that’ll be even more impressive. I’m hoping that this post will let them know where the obstacles are and galvanize them into action.

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

The Pale Tree was initially planted 250 years ago, right? Maybe tree minions are special, somehow. They do take 200 years to mature enough to sprout minions. I’m not sure if we have any timeline evidence for other Dragon champions (assuming this is in fact what the Pale Tree is and not just some “minion tree” that was never meant to be sentient in the first place).

Well, they’re definitely special in that they were clearly meant to be champions, commanding an army of their salad minions (and of course, special because they’ve purified), but I don’t see how the timing would be important.

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Posted by: Koviko.3248

Koviko.3248

Maybe the Forgotten interacted with the Pale Tree(s) during that 200 year growth period. It’s come to my attention that even Glint required magical influence to have free will, so maybe the Pale Tree(s) had the same thing occur.

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

Maybe the Forgotten interacted with the Pale Tree(s) during that 200 year growth period. It’s come to my attention that even Glint required magical influence to have free will, so maybe the Pale Tree(s) had the same thing occur.

That couldn’t have happened. By that point, the Forgotten were already exiled in the Crystal Desert, extremely far away from Maguuma.

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Posted by: Koviko.3248

Koviko.3248

In that case, maybe it was leftover magics of the Forgotten.

The Pale Tree was planted in the soil and took root. We don’t know how deep her roots reach, but we can assume based on her massive size that they go extremely deep. Maybe she “unearthed” some of their magic or came in contact with it deep in the earth. Or maybe her roots spread wide rather than deep like Mordremoth’s vines (or are they Vinewrath’s vines?), and she spread to a location with the leftover influence of Forgotten magic.

I do believe that the magic of the Forgotten is the only method of purifying a Dragon or champion (as having multiple methods of doing so would just complicate the story)… It’s just a matter of how or when.

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

In that case, maybe it was leftover magics of the Forgotten.

The Pale Tree was planted in the soil and took root. We don’t know how deep her roots reach, but we can assume based on her massive size that they go extremely deep. Maybe she “unearthed” some of their magic or came in contact with it deep in the earth. Or maybe her roots spread wide rather than deep like Mordremoth’s vines (or are they Vinewrath’s vines?), and she spread to a location with the leftover influence of Forgotten magic.

I do believe that the magic of the Forgotten is the only method of purifying a Dragon or champion (as having multiple methods of doing so would just complicate the story)… It’s just a matter of how or when.

It’s the only one that we know of (which is why I’m positive the Forgotten are connected to the seeds). But the other elder races, notably the Seers and Mursaat, were well-versed in magic as well. They could have figured it out as well.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

One minor correction, DorDor, not that it takes away from your point any- the Forgotten, between the games, are said to have disappeared from the Crystal Desert. We don’t know when it happened, or where they went, but they’re quite simply not around anymore.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.