Guild Wars 2

Hi All,

While in Frostgorge with a few guildies last night the old claw of Jormag popped up and one of them said ‘Lets go kill the dragon’.

While beating it around the foot with an axe, I piped up with ’It’s not a dragon’ to which I got the reply ‘well it certainly looks like one’.

Now obviously all of us chatting away knew that it certainly isn’t an ‘Elder Dragon’, its a champion of in this case Jormag but is it still a dragon of sorts?

The question is, how are the viewed within the people and the world. I imagine if most residents of the land saw the Claw fly past they would yell ‘Dragon! or would they?’

Is it correct from a Lore standpoint to call the champions that are put together in what we would consider a ‘Dragon like form’ to be a dragon, just not an Elder one? Or is the power of an actual ‘Elder’ Dragon so great in comparison that it would never be bracketed as being a dragon.

We were chatting away for quite a while about it, I just wanted to get some views on what folk here would think of them as being as it was an interesting conversation we were having on vent.

You have dragon’s in many forms. In gw2 there was this bone dragon called Rotscale: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Rotscale wich has nothing to do with elder dragon’s

Also Glint is a dragon (mission is even called that way, as are her eggs called dragon eggs)

so yes Claw of Jormag is a dragon and it is very ok to call him a dragon.

He is however not an Elder Dragon. Elder dragon’s are unique and much more powerfull. the power is however in the term Elder.

So considering the term bone dragon, dragon eggs and the dragon’s lair in gw1 I would say that it is normal to call a dragon a dragon.

(ye I know bone dragon isn’t rotscale, but just a same skin, but I wanted to get old rotty in it cause I like him so much had had so much func with him).

I know this isn’t directly tied to Tyria persay, but it shows the level of knoowledge of dragons people have. Cantha was called the Dragon Empire (No relation to the ED’s). There is also a race of saltspray dragons and Kuunuvang located in Cantha and a Celestial Dragon that they venerate. And yeah, that’s Cantha, not Tyria, but many people within Divinity’s Reach are Canthan, so I would assume much of what they know about dragons transferred over.

Oh ok cool, thanks for the info.

Part of my wondering was as I understand it (I could be wrong) that Jormag corrupts it’s followers from living subjects, which I assume means somewhere along it’s travels Jormag has come across a dragon or two to gather into it’s service.

Interesting stuff, again thanks

Simply put:

It is another Dragon which has, willingly or unwillingly, gotten Corrupted by Jormag and serves as one of his Lieutenants.

The way it looks + its attack pattern, I always thought it was Jormag’s version of an autonomous weapon. Ice Golem, that replicates other Ice Golems. (Or Icebrood, but you see the idea.)

WreckSC.1835:

Is it correct from a Lore standpoint to call the champions that are put together in what we would consider a ‘Dragon like form’ to be a dragon, just not an Elder one? Or is the power of an actual ‘Elder’ Dragon so great in comparison that it would never be bracketed as being a dragon.

Yep, calling it a dragon is correct.

Throughout Tyrian (the world as well as the continent) history, there have been quite a few dragons.

The Elder Dragons are one type of very powerful dragon, but there are other types as well. Another dragon may be an Elder Dragon’s champion, as Glint was for Kralkatorrik.

If it looks like a dragon, it’s probably a dragon, although there are only a handful are Elder Dragons (exactly how many remains debated, likely around 6-ish.)

Well, in form it’s a dragon, but was it once something else? Zhaitan’s champs look like dragons, but are very fleshy, and probably the only champs that could pass for corrupted dragons. The Shatterer seems to be held together by branded crystal energy stuff, and not actually a sentient being that’s corrupted. Same with the Claw, it’s just corrupted ice in a dragon form.
My take on it, at least

Compare it to Corrupted Quaggans. Or Corrupted Anything. It definitely looks like a Dragon that has been Icebrood’d.

I think dragon champions are not corrupted dragons – rather they are created specifically by Elder Dragons to be their most powerful lieutenants. The fact that there is an endless supply of those tells you something… would be inconvenient if every time we killed one, their elder dragon had to go and hunt down a member of a race which is not known for being numerous and corrupt it.

Elder dragons seem almost like elemental beings, and their champions probably follow suit. So basically they are like big elementals.

Liek god elementals. Which may be the struggle between the mantle of godhood and the ED’s. A fight for power between ancient primevil forces and the comparatively newer forces behind thinking beings.

Gaudrath.6725:

I think dragon champions are not corrupted dragons – rather they are created specifically by Elder Dragons to be their most powerful lieutenants. The fact that there is an endless supply of those tells you something… would be inconvenient if every time we killed one, their elder dragon had to go and hunt down a member of a race which is not known for being numerous and corrupt it.

Elder dragons seem almost like elemental beings, and their champions probably follow suit. So basically they are like big elementals.

Let’s not get into that whole chronological mess again. Let’s just say that it may or may not be the same Claw you kill over and over.

:P

Also, look at how numerous Zhaitan’s Champions are in Arah Story Mode; they blot out the sky! I don’t think Jormag is in short supply of Dragon henchmen, really…

Again, thanks for the info folks, really good stuff

With Zhaitan, in regards to how many ‘Dragons’ he can get ahold of you would think all he might need is the corpse (or perhaps bones) of a dragon to create a risen version of it, just the remains of one so depending on how many of them there have once been alive that Zhaitan or its minions can locate he could potentially get a lot of them, and like you say Oglaf there be enough to blot out the sky.

I suppose it makes sense that you don’t really see dragons around in the world….Massive great flying lizard with huge teeth and claws, pretty much any of the sentient races are going to say ‘Sod that, I don’t want that living near me, grab the pitch forks lads, lets get it!’.

So you would imagine any remaining dragons (If in Jormag’s case it has found some then I guess up to relatively recently there must have been at least some hiding around the world) they would likely be in remote un-populated areas and Jormag has been able to find them and somehow either by force or persuasion got them to be under his control and nicely corrupted for his icy needs :P

I suppose as well if there was a ‘destroyer’ version of a dragon (is there, I don’t know personally?) then again it could be created from the rock/magma itself much like say a destroyer troll or crab.

Oglaf.1074:

Gaudrath.6725:

I think dragon champions are not corrupted dragons – rather they are created specifically by Elder Dragons to be their most powerful lieutenants. The fact that there is an endless supply of those tells you something… would be inconvenient if every time we killed one, their elder dragon had to go and hunt down a member of a race which is not known for being numerous and corrupt it.

Elder dragons seem almost like elemental beings, and their champions probably follow suit. So basically they are like big elementals.

Let’s not get into that whole chronological mess again. Let’s just say that it may or may not be the same Claw you kill over and over.

:P

Also, look at how numerous Zhaitan’s Champions are in Arah Story Mode; they blot out the sky! I don’t think Jormag is in short supply of Dragon henchmen, really…

It is not a chronological mess. It is stated on more than one occasion in the game that the Shatterer is just one of many such creatures. The same goes for Claw. The only reason Tequatl is “named” is because those hylek don’t know any better.

Yea, Tequatl should not be coming up after Zhaitan is dead, but I think we can all agree to just ignore that little nugget.

Also I should add that the Claw is referred to as “an ice dragon” by the NPC. Note the “an”. If it was unique, they’d probably be going “THE ice dragon appeared”. So there’s definitely more than one.
For Shatterer this is stated explicitly by one of the NPCs in the Brand, I forgot which.

This fact just makes me question more the actual creature that is corrupted. Like you said earlier, finding more andmore dragons, which didn’t seem to be that abundant just 250 years ago, to corrupt and make a champion seems like a waste of time. Shatterer is easier to think of just a corruption of material, since there are branded sparks and earth elementals, but now that I think of it, Jormag doesn’t have any non-sentient minions.

Gaudrath.6725:

It is not a chronological mess. It is stated on more than one occasion in the game that the Shatterer is just one of many such creatures. The same goes for Claw. The only reason Tequatl is “named” is because those hylek don’t know any better.

I always thought Tequatl was more of a description of a type of creature than a proper name. It’s the Hylek word meaning “the one who is in darkness,” which I figured they were using to mean that type of dragon (any of them would be in darkness) rather than a specific creature.

If you read the dialog with the translation in mind rather than treating it as a name, it still works equally well.

mercury ranique.2170:

You have dragon’s in many forms. In gw2 there was this bone dragon called Rotscale: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Rotscale wich has nothing to do with elder dragon’s

Not necessarily true. In 2009, Rotscale was put on par to Glint.

@OP: There’s something very very important to denote about Guild Wars and dragons.

Dragons in Guild Wars are not living flying reptiles. Rather than being dragons, they’re more of magical beings/constructs that are shaped like giant winged lizards. Even the Elder Dragons – based on Zhaitan and the nature given to them thus far – cannot be called “dragons” because they’re more of magical seemingly non-fleshy eldritch abominations that just resemble dragons.

The only similarity dragons in Guild Wars have with dragons in high fantasy is twofold:

General shape and they have breath attacks.

The Claw of Jormag is frozen bones(?) and ice made into a draconic shape and given sentience. The Shatterer is lightning and stone made into a draconic shape. Glint was crystals made into a draconic shape. Etc.

The only “flesh and blood” dragons in GW would be those in Cantha – the Saltspray Dragons. And possibly whatever Bone Dragons were in life, though only possibly.

So yes, it’s a dragon, but it’s not like your standard fantasy or mythological dragon. It’s just a dragon from a Guild Wars viewpoint.

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

Gaudrath.6725:

It is not a chronological mess. It is stated on more than one occasion in the game that the Shatterer is just one of many such creatures. The same goes for Claw. The only reason Tequatl is “named” is because those hylek don’t know any better.

I always thought Tequatl was more of a description of a type of creature than a proper name. It’s the Hylek word meaning “the one who is in darkness,” which I figured they were using to mean that type of dragon (any of them would be in darkness) rather than a specific creature.

If you read the dialog with the translation in mind rather than treating it as a name, it still works equally well.

I figured the same. The hylek call the risen “Sunless” and Tequatl is hylek for “one who is in darkness” (so yes, his name Tequatl the Sunless is indeed redundant – effectively meaning “One who is in darkness, the Sunless” – though alternatively it would also be “One who is in darkness, the Risen” or “The Risen who is in darkness” if one were to treat “the Sunless” as an dependent phrase rather than a title or surname). Tequatl is probably the hylek’s name for all of Zhaitan’s dragon champions.

Mystic Starfish.2586:

This fact just makes me question more the actual creature that is corrupted. Like you said earlier, finding more andmore dragons, which didn’t seem to be that abundant just 250 years ago, to corrupt and make a champion seems like a waste of time. Shatterer is easier to think of just a corruption of material, since there are branded sparks and earth elementals, but now that I think of it, Jormag doesn’t have any non-sentient minions.

That is why I think that both the Elder Dragons and their dragon champions are closer to elemental creatures than living ones, even corrupted. Zhaitan, in fact, is the only one we know of that even looks organic.
But even that doesn’t mean anything, it is possible to have organic constructs which are more akin to elementals of flesh than actual living or unliving creatures, such as the flesh golem or in GW2 lore, necromancer minions, which are basically magical constructs and not actual cadavers.

If the dragon champions are similar to elementals, then their creation is as easy as conjuring a regular elemental – elementals are not limited in number and in fact can appear out of thin air when conditions are met. Which is why the dragon champions come in unlimited supply.

Gaudrath.6725:

Zhaitan, in fact, is the only one we know of that even looks organic.

Kralkatorrik is said, in Edge of Destiny, to have scales and to bleed (even if said blood does crystallize). But similarly, he’s said to be “more magical than physical” and can turn his body into a literal sandstorm.

Gaudrath.6725:

If the dragon champions are similar to elementals, then their creation is as easy as conjuring a regular elemental – elementals are not limited in number and in fact can appear out of thin air when conditions are met. Which is why the dragon champions come in unlimited supply.

They don’t literally appear out of thing air, since they come from the elements – there is a limit on them, it’s just that limit is very very very high.