Guild Wars 2

I’m not one for creating elaborate fanfics or long suggestions but two possble future developements for the Charr came to mind and I was wondering if you guys think they are likely.

The first is related to the technological advancement of the Charr and the Charr relations to other races. See we know the big Iron Legion developements came from appropriating Dwarf gunpowder technology. Furthermore we also know that the Iron Legion under Smodur is the legion which is politically the most progressive legion in their view of other races. It was the Iron Legion which pushed for a treaty with Queen Jenna.

Therefor I was wondering if the Iron Legion was also willing to learn about the technology of other races. Specifically I was thinking about the sound-based technology of the dredge, the blacksmithing of the norn and even the clockwork technology of the humans. Would they consider improving their own technology through cooperation or would they be too proud?

The second possible developement for the Charr could even be a reaction to the Iron Legion stance on the technology of other races. See the Blood Legion is pretty much the reverse of the Iron Legion when it comes to technology and their view of other races. The Blood Legion imperator is even viewed as a “true wild card, distrustful and prone to rage”. I recall, but I can’t seem to find it, that the Iron Legion and Ash Legion were in favor of the treaty but that the Blood Legion was against it. They only supported it because they didn’t want to go against both the other legions. It wouldn’t suprise me if most of the Renegades were from the Blood Legion.

What if at some point the Blood Legion splits into two, it is the biggest of the three legions after all, with one part supporting the treaty and continues it’s alliance with the other two legions while the other part starts a civil war. I can imagine the Iron Legion’s technological advantage and the Iron Legion’s stance on other races causes resentment. This combined with a lack of lands to conquer and armies to fight (fighting ghosts and branded and guerilla groups is probably less satisfying than fighting ascalon) could be a potential time bomb.

I was also thinking about this. Would make a perfect story, both for the ones who hate the charr and the ones who love them.

Let’s say the Blood Legion tries to undermine the treaty. Maybe they would even try to assassinate the leaders of both the Iron Legion and Ebonhawke at the Peace Summit.

They do not succeed, and this new alliance consisting of Ascalon and the Legions declare war on the Blood Legion. Now they have a common enemy and reasons to fight side-by-side.

The Blood Legion offers an alliance to the (now weaker) Flame Legion, the the Blood will lead this time.

The Legions and the Vanguard foces could try to push the Blood back, making months-long war themed Living Story.

Humans could reclaim Drascir, their capital in the proccess, making a base the establish the New Kingdom of Ascalon. The next parts could focus on rebuilding the city and setting up an offense against the Blood. Maybe we could even use the ghosts to help us with Wade Samuelsson commanding them to battle with the reforged Magdaer. Or Logan.

Finally we would have a chance to fight the Blood Legion on their own homelands, introducing a new region.

This would forge a lasting peace and could help to ease the conflicts between the 2 sides.

I think something like this would be a better story than the whole GW2 + LS.

Technically, Ash was first to push to peace with humans. Malice was the one who pushed for retrieving the Claw of the Khan-Ur, using the Vigil as a medium with Jennah.

Also, Iron Legion tech is already clockwork. The difference between human and charr is that humans don’t mass produce and mix a little bit of magic in it (usually just a little).

In theory, things like more factions in the Charr race could work, but in-game, I doubt that would happen. Mainly because playable characters are only given the good side (you can’t join Inquest/Nightmare Court). So if the Blood Legion were to split up, and create another side faction that was against the peace treaty, that could technically split the player base (people who made a blood legion charr).

Gandarel.5091:

I was also thinking about this. Would make a perfect story, both for the ones who hate the charr and the ones who love them.

Let’s say the Blood Legion tries to undermine the treaty. Maybe they would even try to assassinate the leaders of both the Iron Legion and Ebonhawke at the Peace Summit.

They do not succeed, and this new alliance consisting of Ascalon and the Legions declare war on the Blood Legion. Now they have a common enemy and reasons to fight side-by-side.

The Blood Legion offers an alliance to the (now weaker) Flame Legion, the the Blood will lead this time.

The Legions and the Vanguard foces could try to push the Blood back, making months-long war themed Living Story.

Humans could reclaim Drascir, their capital in the proccess, making a base the establish the New Kingdom of Ascalon. The next parts could focus on rebuilding the city and setting up an offense against the Blood. Maybe we could even use the ghosts to help us with Wade Samuelsson commanding them to battle with the reforged Magdaer. Or Logan.

Finally we would have a chance to fight the Blood Legion on their own homelands, introducing a new region.

This would forge a lasting peace and could help to ease the conflicts between the 2 sides.

I think something like this would be a better story than the whole GW2 + LS.

Sort of what I was thinking. It’s story which connects to existing lore and gives the possibility for new areas so it would be perfect for the Living Story or for an Expansion.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, Ash was first to push to peace with humans. Malice was the one who pushed for retrieving the Claw of the Khan-Ur, using the Vigil as a medium with Jennah.

Also, Iron Legion tech is already clockwork. The difference between human and charr is that humans don’t mass produce and mix a little bit of magic in it (usually just a little).

Ah right, well lore details like that are easily missed or mis-remembered. That doesn’t change much about the general idea though.

About clockwork, I understand that what the Charr use is similar. However my question/idea was more based around the prospect of cooperation between charr and humans. Would the Iron Legion be willing to cooperate with other races and copy other races or would pride stand in their way?

Mystic Starfish.2586:

In theory, things like more factions in the Charr race could work, but in-game, I doubt that would happen. Mainly because playable characters are only given the good side (you can’t join Inquest/Nightmare Court). So if the Blood Legion were to split up, and create another side faction that was against the peace treaty, that could technically split the player base (people who made a blood legion charr).

Obviously all Blood Legion players would be in the ‘good’ Blood Legion faction.

Diovid.9506:

About clockwork, I understand that what the Charr use is similar. However my question/idea was more based around the prospect of cooperation between charr and humans. Would the Iron Legion be willing to cooperate with other races and copy other races or would pride stand in their way?

I imagine this would vary from one individual to another, but am not positive what the most common sentiment would be. I recall a quote from individuals in the Black Citadel that implied they were demonstrating their technology to some asura, though – so they are at least not averse to sharing technology in that direction.
Practically speaking, though, I think individual charr inventors would take inspiration from anything they knew of; whether or not they’d be willing to admit it would be the only question.

Killing your superior officer (especially if you can accuse him in as traitor) is acceptable way to rank up in Charr society. So no major civil war, just initial conflict, some story battles, making contact with Rytlock, preparations, Iron+Ash+Edge of Destiny (or Rox+Bhaham, or both, and player ofk) operation, Bangar killed by Rytlock, Rytlock is new Blood Imperator.

Rednik.3809:

Killing your superior officer (especially if you can accuse him in as traitor) is acceptable way to rank up in Charr society. So no major civil war, just initial conflict, some story battles, making contact with Rytlock, preparations, Iron+Ash+Edge of Destiny (or Rox+Bhaham, or both, and player ofk) operation, Bangar killed by Rytlock, Rytlock is new Blood Imperator.

Only if:
-They are strong enought to kill him – if they fail, well, they are written off
-Someone in the Blood Legion of high ranks wants to overthrow him

Not everyone can go up to the current leader and just kill him. That’s chaos. And I doubt most of the Blood Legion would turn on his leader.

Gandarel.5091:

Only if:
-They are strong enought to kill him – if they fail, well, they are written off
-Someone in the Blood Legion of high ranks wants to overthrow him

Not everyone can go up to the current leader and just kill him. That’s chaos. And I doubt most of the Blood Legion would turn on his leader.

We killed Flame Imperator already, in CoF story, right in the center of his citadel. So it’s entirely possible. And Rytlock is already Blood Tribune, hence – legitimate pretender to Imperator title.

except for as far as I know that Rytlock may not be a descendent of the last Khan-ur which would keep him from becoming an Imperator…all imperators are descendants of the last Khan-ur, that is not to say that Rytlock isn’t a descendant but we haven’t even been given so much as a hint to say that he is.

I think most anyone who would be in favor of a civil war due to not wanting a treaty with the humans would already be part of the charr dissidents trying to sabotage to treaty around ebonhawke. Maybe most of them come from Blood legion, maybe not. But i don’t think it would alter to current politics too much since it is basically already happening.

Back to the idea of Iron Legion borrowing from other races, it does indeed happen. The ghost containment unit, which is one of three major recent advancements in the war against the ghosts, uses in part asura gate technology.

Rednik.3809:

Gandarel.5091:

Only if:
-They are strong enought to kill him – if they fail, well, they are written off
-Someone in the Blood Legion of high ranks wants to overthrow him

Not everyone can go up to the current leader and just kill him. That’s chaos. And I doubt most of the Blood Legion would turn on his leader.

We killed Flame Imperator already, in CoF story, right in the center of his citadel. So it’s entirely possible. And Rytlock is already Blood Tribune, hence – legitimate pretender to Imperator title.

We killed Gaheron, that’s true, but the Flame Legion is hostile. Blood currently is not. And the Flame did not stop even after this happened. Nor did we became Imperators.

Forgot to post this earlier but…

I think it is said most of the Renegades come from Blood Legion – not 100% sure on this though so take it with a grain of salt. I do know there are Renegades who wear Blood armor and act as them in Fields of Ruin though.

So one can argue that the civil war is happening. It’s just Renegades vs. High Legions rather than Blood vs. Blood.

Gandarel.5091:

We killed Gaheron, that’s true, but the Flame Legion is hostile. Blood currently is not. And the Flame did not stop even after this happened. Nor did we became Imperators.

Because we don’t have friendly Flame Tribune to take Flame Imperator title and stop the conflict.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Forgot to post this earlier but…

I think it is said most of the Renegades come from Blood Legion – not 100% sure on this though so take it with a grain of salt. I do know there are Renegades who wear Blood armor and act as them in Fields of Ruin though.

So one can argue that the civil war is happening. It’s just Renegades vs. High Legions rather than Blood vs. Blood.

There’s also Renegedes in Ash and Iron Legion gear, so the three are all represented.

It is a suspicion of mine that Bangar might be supporting the renegedes “under the table” – as an Imperator he can’t declare for the renegedes without political ramifications (he’d basically be challenging Smodur’s jurisdiction in his own lands) but from the unfortunately-removed Charr Week charr page, it did seem like he had sympathies in that direction.

I could see Rytlock ending up challenging for the Khan-Urship, but given ArenaNet’s current policies on progressing the story, I don’t think we’re likely to see it without a change in said policy.

Diovid.9506:

This combined with a lack of lands to conquer and armies to fight

This is something I’ve never understood.
By now we’ve all seen the unrevealed global maps of Tyria right? There’s a ton of unexplored (to us) territory to the East and North of the Charr lands. Why exactly don’t they just expand there?
You know it’s not an uncommon strategy to use foreign conquests and colonization of foreign lands to make an outlet for domestic discontent, the German Empire of Pre-WW1 did it.

Some of this may be a bit off as trying to do it from memory.

To be honest you have to back a little more in history than that, to just say that the German empire Pre-WW1 started conquests to settle domestic disputes is quite far off, in fact Germany is considered one of the younger countries in the world as before this it was known as the Holy Roman Empire (which many make fun of because it was none of the 3[holy, roman, or an empire]) At that time the nobles held the most power in the land, until Otto von Bismarck (prime minister of Prussia) essentially paid off countries around the holy roman empire to not get involved in the conflict between Austria and its nearby “German” allies, and Prussia and its other “German” allies. Prussia won the war in about 7 weeks uniting Germany. It was more of a unification effort until Otto von Bismarck was removed as the prime minister, and the new monarch at that time decided they had gotten behind in the race to colonize the world and got involved.

The future of the Charr is to be a servant race of the Asura.

As everyone else.

We are nothing if not fair.

except when the asura refuse to co-operate and their “devices” are rendered useless by the dragons eating them for energy, and then are mowed down by the faster reproducing, stronger physically, and technology not based on magic charr. This being said in all reality much of war relies on a command structure which the charr have while the asura may have crews and colleges but they often don’t even get along. What happens to the mad scientist when the laws of his/her universe change…

Infamous Darkness.3284:

To be honest you have to back a little more in history than that, to just say that the German empire Pre-WW1 started conquests to settle domestic disputes is quite far off

You’re right, because I never said that.
I said:
“outlet for domestic discontent”
It wasn’t for settling domestic disputes, I didn’t say that. They used it as a strategy to outlet the expansionists.
Although it would be dishonest not to include that they also sought resources and specifically in the Far East coal stations for the High Seas Fleet to operate in the Pacific, it was utilized for the purpose I initially stated as well.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

in fact Germany is considered one of the younger countries in the world as before this it was known as the Holy Roman Empire (which many make fun of because it was none of the 3[holy, roman, or an empire]) At that time the nobles held the most power in the land, until Otto von Bismarck (prime minister of Prussia) essentially paid off countries around the holy roman empire to not get involved in the conflict between Austria and its nearby “German” allies, and Prussia and its other “German” allies. Prussia won the war in about 7 weeks uniting Germany. It was more of a unification effort until Otto von Bismarck was removed as the prime minister, and the new monarch at that time decided they had gotten behind in the race to colonize the world and got involved.

This had literally nothing to do with what I was talking about, especially not in context. It’s just a bunch of gobbledeegoop that we all know about already that is irrelevant and for padding.

Also no no no, a Kingdom of Germany did exist in the middle ages and formed the base of the HRE. It’s the result of the Eastern Carolingian Empire division and is where the HRE, its royal line AND claim to the Roman throne via Translatio Imperii came from. The crown of Charlemagne was then divided by the separating Carolingian Empire in the late 9th century, which is how Otto I inherited a direct connection to a crowned “King of the Romans” and established the HRE. The HRE through the middle ages also consisted of both the broader Kingdom of Germany, the Kingdom of Italy, and various other Kingdoms and Duchies at various times, making it a legitimate Empire. So that makes the HRE (at least in the middle ages) Holy via crowning by the Pope (until Electors became a major thing), Roman via lineage to Charlemagne, and an Empire via rulership over multiple Kingdoms.

And another thing, your history after 1800 is kind of bizarre. The HRE largely stuck around as a loose Germany confederation till Napoleon. This was due to Charles V, who Holy Roman Emperor and decided all territories would be staunchly Catholic, he effectively made sure Spain did not develop using New World plunder by spending it all fighting the Turks, Dutch Protestants, and assorted German Protestants. In any case when he failed at that he split his empire between heirs into essentially a “Spanish” side and an “Austrian” side. The Austrian side simply “took lead” of the decentralizing German HRE. The point of mentioning that is by 1800 the German states were all used to relative autonomy within the form of a confederation. Anyway the HRE no longer existed after 1806 because of Napoleon who dissolved and consolidated my German principalities. So I have no idea why you are saying Bismark was paying off parts of a political entity that did not exist anymore. What did exist after this was the German Confederation which were formed around the major German states at the time, Prussia and Austria, and essentially functioned as a buffer between the two states. It would eventually dissolve however as Austria and Prussia continually warred against each other to determine domination of German speaking Europe, ending with Prussia defeating the Austrians and creating the North German Confederacy around themselves and isolating the Austrians. Shortly afterwards the North German Confederacy absorbed the modern Southern German states and was renamed the German Empire, this was affirmed when the Emperor was named in Versailles.

Moving on, Otto von Bismark had already united a German Empire and was slowly going forward with a colonial empire (he didn’t think much of it though). The only link I can see in your claim that colonization was part of unifying the empire is that many saw overseas colonies as affirmation of a sovereign nation. Aside from that I’m just not sure.
Also part of the reason Wilhelm II was so gung-ho about colonies goes back to my earlier point about the High Seas Fleet. Wilhelm II made the High Seas Fleet a high priority in the German Empire and considered it very preciously. This would reveal itself as a terrible way to view a military function when he would constantly hamper their ability to do anything in WWI.

tl;dr I have no idea why you typed that second paragraph.

@Lostwingman There are indications that they have. The charr week article, still visible on the wiki, mentions that the Blood Citadel is east across the Shiverpeaks, and while we don’t know where Ash is headquartered, process of elimination would indicate that it too is beyond our m map.

the second paragraph was directed at the post directly above it
Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981

The future of the Charr is to be a servant race of the Asura.

As everyone else.

We are nothing if not fair.

ah that quote was by Voltaire "This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. "

The reasoning on the holy roman empire is completely off though
1) I say that it is not an empire because the definition of empire is “an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority, formerly esp. an emperor or empress.” and while they did elect a monarch it never had the same unification of its political structure as say the French. The nobles still retained de facto sovereignty within their own territories, so even though they owed the holy roman emperor their allegiance, he did not have supreme authority…thus not an empire
2) I say that it is not Roman, as it may have included part of Italy, and parts of the former Roman empire, but it never included the City of Rome. (except for short periods)
3) Holy this one is a bit different but I think it comes from this “Before 1157, the realm was merely referred to as the Roman Empire. The term sacrum (”holy," in the sense of “consecrated”) in connection with the medieval Roman Empire was used beginning in 1157, under Frederick I Barbarossa (“Holy Empire”) — the term was added to reflect Frederick’s ambition to dominate Italy and the Papacy; the form “Holy Roman Empire” is attested from 1254 onward." the definition of holy “dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred.” and while crowning by the pope may make one a “divine right monarch”…I suppose if that’s what you were saying I would agree on that point.

don’t have time to respond to the rest at the moment, but would enjoy discussing this more with you if you have time later. Lostwingman.5034

Sorry I definitely steered this thread off topic

I think this thread is really going off-topic, especially since Germany was late in getting colonies and barely had any, as the world was already pretty much divided into spheres of interest, mostly by the british and french. The Charr can best be compared to the Romans or Spartans, if any comparison should be drawn at all.

I do see it as a possibility that Rytlock may rise in rank, we do not really know much about his background, he may very well be a distant descendant of the Khan-Ur. But as it has been said, since we do not get major game-changes the question does not arise at the moment.

A charr civil war seems to be a possibility, but only after the Charr face no more, or at least less, enemies than they currently do, given their preferance for warfare. No strong outside enemy usually meant that an empire turned upon itself, look at the fall of the roman Republic. But to me it doesn’t feel like a Legion would break apart, but one would turn hostile towards the other two, the most likely candidate being a Legion whose emperor does not support peace with humanity. But again, we probably won’t see such a thing happen ingame.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

the second paragraph was directed at the post directly above it
Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981

Ok I didn’t see anything to point that out so it confused me.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

ah that quote was by Voltaire "This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. "

Ah, should have mentioned that then. It sounded like you yourself was making that statement. Although it still confuses me why you would use it. It’s doubly useless since it’s a quote from within a hundred years of its dissolution and ~200 years after the HRE had its last Papal crowned Emperor. Like I said, after Charles V it was very different and lost a lot of what little cemented centralization it had and became much closer to a confederacy than it was before. After him it just kinda lived on in name.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

The reasoning on the holy roman empire is completely off though
1) I say that it is not an empire because the definition of empire is “an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority, formerly esp. an emperor or empress.” and while they did elect a monarch it never had the same unification of its political structure as say the French. The nobles still retained de facto sovereignty within their own territories, so even though they owed the holy roman emperor their allegiance, he did not have supreme authority…thus not an empire

The Emperors had varying levels of control over the years but it should be noted when the HRE was founded by Otto I, France was in a similarly decentralized position. Also it was referred to as the Roman Empire prior to the mid-12th century to emphasize the connection I mention below. Also I think you’re taking the definition of the word supreme and mixing it with the word ‘absolute’. Supreme just means that he was above the rest, and he was.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

2) I say that it is not Roman, as it may have included part of Italy, and parts of the former Roman empire, but it never included the City of Rome. (except for short periods)

Irrelevant to my point. I did not say it was Roman because it encompassed the Northern Italian states that made up the “Kingdom of Italy”. I said it could legitimately be called “Roman” in that the Roman crown was inherited from Charlemagne via the Pope.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

3) Holy this one is a bit different but I think it comes from this “Before 1157, the realm was merely referred to as the Roman Empire. The term sacrum (”holy," in the sense of “consecrated”) in connection with the medieval Roman Empire was used beginning in 1157, under Frederick I Barbarossa (“Holy Empire”) — the term was added to reflect Frederick’s ambition to dominate Italy and the Papacy; the form “Holy Roman Empire” is attested from 1254 onward." the definition of holy “dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred.” and while crowning by the pope may make one a “divine right monarch”…I suppose if that’s what you were saying I would agree on that point.

I said holy in that he was crowned by the pope as protector of the Catholic Church.
So it is still valid. Also, returning to the earlier point again, Voltaire’s quote is after I said that practice ended. I originally had a line stating that the HRE lived on after Charles V largely in name only but removed because I didn’t have the time to elaborate fully, should have left it in to more definitively mark the cut off of before and after Charles V.

I was in a rush earlier
don’t have time to respond to the rest at the moment, but would enjoy discussing this more with you if you have time later. Lostwingman.5034

That’s fine, this is a forum after all so the messages will still be here.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

Sorry I definitely steered this thread off topic

Actually, given that part of the Charr culture (or at least some of the “flavor”) is modeled on the Romans it’s not entirely off to discuss Roman history and its offshoots. As long as we can bring it back I suppose.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

@Lostwingman There are indications that they have. The charr week article, still visible on the wiki, mentions that the Blood Citadel is east across the Shiverpeaks, and while we don’t know where Ash is headquartered, process of elimination would indicate that it too is beyond our m map.

No no no. When I say outside of Charr lands I mean outside of all Charr lands.
There’s a whole ton of Tyria to the North and East that can’t possibly be part of Charr lands.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/40761-the-complete-world-of-tyria-image-heavy/

Just look at that, it’s freaking huge so why didn’t they go that way?

Gotcha. Maybe the Blood and Ash legions are? Iron is tied down with problems in their own territory, but I doubt they other two are throwing everything they have into Ascalon.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Gotcha. Maybe the Blood and Ash legions are? Iron is tied down with problems in their own territory, but I doubt they other two are throwing everything they have into Ascalon.

If that’s the case Charr demands of Ascalonian land seem petty and then their population base must be absolutely overwhelming in size.

Lostwingman.5034:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Gotcha. Maybe the Blood and Ash legions are? Iron is tied down with problems in their own territory, but I doubt they other two are throwing everything they have into Ascalon.

If that’s the case Charr demands of Ascalonian land seem petty and then their population base must be absolutely overwhelming in size.

The beginnings of wisdom…

Petty? Maybe, but the point isn’t the land. The point is that Ascalon was the only piece of territory the charr ever lost. For a race that exists to wage war, retaking it isn’t just a matter of pride- it’s a necessary validation of their culture, their entire way of life.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ascalon was the only piece of territory the charr ever lost

I highly doubt the Charr never lost a single time to anyone or anything else.

They’ve lost, but always in a “the other party kept what’s theirs” sense, not a “the other party took what’s ours”.

Still seems petty how far and long they went though.

Lostwingman.5034:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

@Lostwingman There are indications that they have. The charr week article, still visible on the wiki, mentions that the Blood Citadel is east across the Shiverpeaks, and while we don’t know where Ash is headquartered, process of elimination would indicate that it too is beyond our m map.

No no no. When I say outside of Charr lands I mean outside of all Charr lands.
There’s a whole ton of Tyria to the North and East that can’t possibly be part of Charr lands.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/40761-the-complete-world-of-tyria-image-heavy/

Just look at that, it’s freaking huge so why didn’t they go that way?

Simply put: We don’t know.

At least some of that land is probably Ash, Blood, and even former Flame territory, but once we get to the borders of charr land… we literally have no idea of what’s over there. The land might not be suitable for the charr to live. It might not be suitable for anyone to live – while the gods didn’t create the world, there’s indications that they did perform significant terraforming to help the world recover after the last activity cycle of the dragons, and there may be land that they never got to making habitable, and if this is true than it’s likely that the further away a region is from Orr, the less likely it was to have received the gods’ attentions. Or it may be that that land is already inhabited by groups that were strong enough to give the charr pause.