Guild Wars 2

can elder dragons eat one another for a large boost in magical energy/food?

based on this question, with Zhaitan dying and its body falling on the eastern edge of orr could it have been consumed and used to strengthen another elder dragon (or one of its champions). My guess would be that the deep sea dragon or one of its minions consumed the corpse of zhaitan giving the DSD a major power boost because soon after zhaitan’s fall we see the aggravated karka move into southsun cove. Considering the karka were the top predator in the depths of the ocean and appear escaping onto land soon after the fall of zhaitan (this part may be false as we don’t know how long the karka had been on southsun before they were worked into a frenzy by the consortium, but based on their leader just moving in and the nests appearing to be unfinished I assume it was soon after the fall of zhaitan)

perhaps it could’ve also been krakatorik who consumed zhaitan, or one of zhaitan’s lieutenants, or maybe its dead body is still just rotting there?

Technically, we don’t know if Zhaitan is dead dead or simply defeated/knocked out.

However, we do know for a fact Tequatl got a very hefty boost in power (Strength, speed, intelligence even perhaps) after Zhaitans defeat. The exact reason for such is unknown.

The Pact only theorized it was in response to their actions in Orr.

I don’t think Zhaitan’s corpse was consumed. Reasons being:

1. The karka have been there for quite some time. How well entrenched they are in Southsun shows this. However, the Risen’s presence in the Sea of Sorrows has prevented exploration thus leaving the island fairly unknown. Plus with how deep the karka were, it’d be weird if they’re only just now being forced out.
2. In an interview with GuildMag, it was hinted that Zhaitan’s corpse is still there.

I personally hope that they would not have Zhaitan’s body be consumed, because his body’s continued existence would give us, the Durmand Priory, and the Pact an extreme boost in figuring out what exactly makes up an Elder Dragon. Although I have already toyed with the thought of his body being consumed by another, I would have thought that Trahearne would have mentioned something like that happening. As I would assume his body being watched in the very least, to assure his current state as dead continues.

Man, can you imagine the amount of effort it would take to haul Zhaitan’s body to a safe and secure location for analysis? They would either have to cut it up to manageable pieces or haul the whole thing in-between a dozen or so airships.

Bah! All I can picture now is Zhaitan’s body getting swarmed over by a horde of researchers in Hazmat Suit power suits, and they are being overseen by an Hannibal Chau-like, from Pacific Rim, OoW agent.

Erukk.1408:

Man, can you imagine the amount of effort it would take to haul Zhaitan’s body to a safe and secure location for analysis? They would either have to cut it up to manageable pieces or haul the whole thing in-between a dozen or so airships.

Or they could setup a system by which they get hordes of adventurers to smuggle the corpse to them piece by piece in exchange for an assortment of knick-knacks.

You can take only samples to study.

CureForLiving.5360:

Or they could setup a system by which they get hordes of adventurers to smuggle the corpse to them piece by piece in exchange for an assortment of knick-knacks.

Oh, that would be fun…

Zhaitan: The Jigsaw Puzzle! 500,000 Pieces and Counting!

Kalavier.1097:

Technically, we don’t know if Zhaitan is dead dead or simply defeated/knocked out.

It’s been confirmed by ANet staff that Zhaitan is really dead. No more, bereft of life, pushing up the daisies, et cetera.

In fact, back in Beta, his corpse was visible in Arah explorable mode, both on the map and in the zone itself. For whatever reason they took it out before release.

They took it out because they changed the model. The original was more like the concept art we’ve seen in the trailers – much bigger, and much more of a standard european dragon.

Dakota.4591:

Kalavier.1097:

Technically, we don’t know if Zhaitan is dead dead or simply defeated/knocked out.

It’s been confirmed by ANet staff that Zhaitan is really dead. No more, bereft of life, pushing up the daisies, et cetera.

In fact, back in Beta, his corpse was visible in Arah explorable mode, both on the map and in the zone itself. For whatever reason they took it out before release.

Do you have the source of that available? Simply because I’d like to see it for myself so I can factually say so to others..

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They took it out because they changed the model. The original was more like the concept art we’ve seen in the trailers – much bigger, and much more of a standard european dragon.

Erukk.1408:

Man, can you imagine the amount of effort it would take to haul Zhaitan’s body to a safe and secure location for analysis? They would either have to cut it up to manageable pieces or haul the whole thing in-between a dozen or so airships.

For both of you…

Vyko.6953:

Tequatl measures:
body width – 22m
wingspan – 188 m
height (when on 4 legs from ground to the top) – 35 m
length (head to tail) – 113 m

Zhaitan:
wingspan – 500 m
height – a bit unmeasureable, since he has no legs and each hand is different
lenght – 506 m

Glory of Tyria:
wingspan – 262 m
height – 158 m
lenght – 370 m

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/a/af/Zhaitan%27s_Size.jpg

Ladies and gentlemen, that enormous thing on the right is original Zhaitan from trailer:

I like the idea of Zhaitan’s corpse being a sort of massive magical battery at the moment! I mean there’s almost certainly still a huge reservoir locked in there, or assumedly we’d see a VERY big sudden release of it when we defeated it! Perhaps on the scale of what we saw when Scarlet tapped the ley line?

The most worrying thought therefore would be what would happen if another dragon got to it? Tequatl might have easily had a nibble! But I reckon the Pact would notice if Kralkatorrik or Bubble popped up to say hello! So maybe they do not know/care? Sure seems like a nice breakfast for a certain someone (looks worriedly towards Maguuma Wastes)

Another interesting point though is hypothetically assuming a dragon tried to eat the body, and that this would transfer magic as well, would it not be seriously hurt? Wasn’t our entire tactic against Zhaitan convincing it to consume poisoned magic? Maybe no dragon has tried to consume it because to them it represents a disease-ridden corpse?

Kalavier.1097:

Dakota.4591:

Kalavier.1097:

Technically, we don’t know if Zhaitan is dead dead or simply defeated/knocked out.

It’s been confirmed by ANet staff that Zhaitan is really dead. No more, bereft of life, pushing up the daisies, et cetera.

In fact, back in Beta, his corpse was visible in Arah explorable mode, both on the map and in the zone itself. For whatever reason they took it out before release.

Do you have the source of that available? Simply because I’d like to see it for myself so I can factually say so to others..

Somewhere on the forums here, don’t know exactly where, but if you want to go rummaging around, knock yourself out. :p

Kalavier.1097:

Do you have the source of that available? Simply because I’d like to see it for myself so I can factually say so to others..

I cited an interview in this thread already in which Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee talks about Zhaitan’s “carcass” (to use Jeff’s exact wording) and his spirit (though the way she talks about that, I’m doubtful she means a soul but rather the lingering after-death effects of Zhaitan). There was also a twitchTV livestream interview with Jeff and Ree in which they said we’d be able to see Zhaitan’s corpse – though this was before release, and as we can see in-game, the corpse was removed from being viewable.

All other mentions simply state his defeat.

Kalavier.1097:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They took it out because they changed the model. The original was more like the concept art we’ve seen in the trailers – much bigger, and much more of a standard european dragon.

Erukk.1408:

Man, can you imagine the amount of effort it would take to haul Zhaitan’s body to a safe and secure location for analysis? They would either have to cut it up to manageable pieces or haul the whole thing in-between a dozen or so airships.

For both of you…

-snip quote about current model sizes-

And for you.

My point remains unchanged.

They took Zhaitan’s corpse out after beta because Zhaitan’s model was changed. In the image I linked the grayscale image is the original – the one that was taken out. It is a much larger model, and far more standard European dragon looking, whereas the modern model – while large – is smaller (the original model was about as bigger to current Zhaitan as current Zhaitan is bigger than dragon champions).

Not sure what your post had to do to Erukk either. His point remains unchanged as well – it’s too huge to haul on its own without major endeavors.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I cited an interview in this thread already in which Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee talks about Zhaitan’s “carcass” (to use Jeff’s exact wording) and his spirit (though the way she talks about that, I’m doubtful she means a soul but rather the lingering after-death effects of Zhaitan). There was also a twitchTV livestream interview with Jeff and Ree in which they said we’d be able to see Zhaitan’s corpse – though this was before release, and as we can see in-game, the corpse was removed from being viewable.

All other mentions simply state his defeat.

And for you.

Yeah… vague wording ftl. One can get the image of him being dead dead, but at the same time perhaps something else.

My point was more incase they didn’t know the complete scale of his size. Basically, to show how huge a haul it’d be to move Zhaitan entirely.

Would it be much of a stretch to assume that the Pact is trying to get to the corpse of Zhaitan? He pretty much fell in the middle of Arah iirc. Dynamic Event loop system aside, as much as we see the Pact is constantly trying to maintain a hold of the Gates of Arah. First it was to take down Zhaitan. Then to investigate Arah, partly for the dungeon paths, and partly to make certain that the Dragon is dead for real. But the risen pushes out the Pact all the time, and the conflict on Orr continues, with the Pact none the wiser about Zhaitans state and location as of yet.

Was there at any time a discussion about Zhaitan being dead before the game started (risen dragon)?

I would take zone events happening continuously with a grain of salt, really. While most are done in a way to act like they’re repeatable, not all are, and Arah is pretty much the last thing chronologically prior to the LW stuff.

Was reading some posts, and the mention of Zhaitan’s corpse drew my attention! A curiosity: It can be seen in-game, though not by normal means (you have to jump off the airship after his defeat and use a revive orb to explore underwater). His defeated champions can be seen underwater as well. -I’m not sure if access to those spots are patched as of today -
It’s just quite interesting to see those details hidden in there.

Glitching through the map like that doesn’t count as lore, but a limitation of game mechanics of avoiding the extra coding of forcing the corpse’s removal (since Zhaitan and the dragon champions don’t function like actual NPCs, but as interactive animated objects (and non-destructible at that). The Iron Forgeman also functions this way, no doubt.

Wait, if Zhaitan is really dead, why is his champion, tequatl, still hanging around? We continually defeat him, and he runs off, but without his master, it’s only a matter of time before we finally kill him. Zhaitan is no longer “fueling” him, and he got stronger AFTER the death of Zhaitan. So if Z really is dead, then whats going on with Teq? Did the DSD take him as a champ? or is Z only feigning his death, only slowly gathering his strength once again while appearing to be dead…

Death of an Elder Dragon does not result in death of its minions. So sayeth at the end of the personal story.

Though, except for one case, ArenaNet has been intentionally vague with Zhaitan’s state after Arah story mode. They tend to use “defeat” rather than killed/died/etc. Only in two interviews did they ever hint to Zhaitan’s death – one was before release, when it was still intended for Zhaitan’s Rest PoI in Arah exp to house Zhaitan’s corpse, and the other was more recent (back in July ‘13 area) where they mentioned that a possible story they’ll go into once expanding Orr’s plot is the Pact going to investigate Zhaitan’s carcass (the term “carcass” being used over corpse/dead body/etc.).

Anyways, it’s mentioned in the LW that Tequatl’s dead – before he was just retreating, but Rox claims he was killed at least, and took part of his tail as a souvenir. Rox’s words, during Wintersday (this time was only to charr player characters):

->When he calls, you’d better answer.
He knows I’m here and that I helped kill the dragon lieutenant they call Tequatl, so he’ll summon me. I just hope it’s soon. That Tequatl tail is stinkier than Braham after a battle.

And during The Origins of Madness:

Rytlock Brimstone: Soldier! Report! Where’s my Tequatl tail?
Rox: Back where I’m bunking, sir! I’ll go get it immediately.
Rytlock Brimstone: Wait. You took down Tequatl.
Rox: As reported, sir. I sent you a missive requesting an audience.

-> You fought Tequatl by yourself?
Oh, cinders, no. There was a small army there. I just nabbed a piece of its tail. Others hacked into the rest.

So plot-wise, Tequatl was KIA’d in 1326 AE – about a year after Zhaitan’s defeat.

And yeah, it would be “only a matter of time before we finally kill him” – as we did. We don’t know why Tequatl got stronger – but it’s possible that Anet will tie in the increase size of Orrian risen, and the powerboost of Temple bosses, into the lore like they did Tequatl later on. It may be that when an Elder Dragon dies, the connection does not sever and the minions receive power still – but with no more being siphoned to the dragon anymore, it’s a finite resource (under this theory) and would eventually all leave the dragon’s corpse and into the minions/surrounding area (making the minions stronger and stronger – and as minions are killed off, the magic would, theoretically, funnel into a smaller number, making those that remain even stronger).

I’m confused. If Tequatl is actually dead, why do we still fight him? I can understand from a mechanical stand point. It would be a bad idea to remove a major world boss, but lore/Living world perspective, it doesn’t make sense. Unless that it’s not the same Tequatl, but Tequatl being a term for a LT of Zhaitan, and although we killed one, there are many that return.

The open world is stuck in time. Except when affected by the Living World. All non-LW events happened in 1325 AE, though some (those mentioned by LW events/changed dialogues) still occur later on. We can still experience it due to the nature of a persistent world, and the like. Tequatl was redesigned as an open world raid boss content, and thus left open for such reasons, but storywise he’s dead.

In similar lights – we fought the Twisted Marionette only once, and it was a succeeded event, in terms of the lore (this was outright stated during a LiveStream by Angel McCoy). Similarly, the Escape from Lion’s Arch content only happened once (and before the content of the refugee camps) – the whole waiting for the miasma to dissipate is the actual lead in to Battle for Lion’s Arch, which again the meta event there only happened once and was succeeded (as it leads into the Scarlet’s End instance – if the meta happened multiple times… Scarlet was resurrected and such would have been acknowledged).

Tequatl was – unlike the Claws of Jormag or the Shatterers – one specific dragon champion. Whether it is now is unknown, but its unlikely as each of Zhaitan’s champions seem to have unique names, rather than titles like the Claws of Jormag and the Shatterers.

That actually makes sense! Thanks!

I’m of the viewpoint to be wary until confirmed deaths… Especially since regardlessly Tequatl falls into the ocean (into a deep part no less). + having confirmed to be beaten back a lot (using that megalaser and turret setup) and always come back. The only difference on the side of the defenders is the Vigil set up some batteries to charge up the megalaser and perhaps increase the power…

A piece of tail falls off, but seeing that and not knowing the periods between his emergence beforehand come mean the tail piece fell off, Tequatl landed in the Ocean and Rox figured him dead (Maybe she hadn’t been involved or heard about the area before) and dragged off a chunk of the tail thinking him dead for good.

IMO, it’s an iffy area that isn’t 100% sure.

edit: Not calling Rox a liar, but if she hadn’t know about the fact he kept coming back before I could easily see a defeat on him to appear to be a death when it’s not.

I think Tequatl’s body being “hacked into” after Rox took its tail counts as a “confirmed death”.

Keep in mind that the megalaser used for Tequatl with the update was purchased and upgraded by the Vigil – its stronger than the previous one, though still not enough to kill Tequatl outright (no doubt due to not having the stuff that was made to counter Zhaitan).

Also, Rox does know that Tequatl kept coming back stronger and smarter when he was defeated previously – and during such times (read: all events before Tequatl Rising update) are outright said that he survived and simply fled to return.

Of course, looking deeper, I found this line from during Tequatl Rising:

“I’d toast my victory with some Iron Whiskey, but I lost my flask in this swamp. I wonder…if I stuck around, could I get a better trophy from the next Tequatl?”

I’m pretty sure she did mention Tequatl returning even when beaten in her ambient dialogue, but sadly wiki lacks such lines. And while the wiki doesn’t have it, I’m pretty sure Warmaster Narru also mentions that Tequatl is “dead” rather than “beaten” when you kill him now.

I’d have to check, but it seemed like after a win they quickly (almost instantly by time you get the chest and back) revert to default lines…

Apparently her lines from “The next tequatl” reverts to the beating him line.

Dakota.4591:

Kalavier.1097:

Technically, we don’t know if Zhaitan is dead dead or simply defeated/knocked out.

It’s been confirmed by ANet staff that Zhaitan is really dead. No more, bereft of life, pushing up the daisies, et cetera.

In fact, back in Beta, his corpse was visible in Arah explorable mode, both on the map and in the zone itself. For whatever reason they took it out before release.

Well he’s technically always been dead… undead that is.

Actually, nothing says Zhaitan is undead. He’s called the Elder Undeath Dragon because he uses undeath in his minions.

Just because you can repeatedly kill a boss in repeating events doesn’t mean they keep coming back story-wise. I killed Scarlet three times … I’d like to think she’s actually dead. Some people have repeated the last story instance and killed Zhaitan over and over.

For an open world example: you kill Kor the giant, and Daithor the Drill several times throughout events. Not to include the fire shaman in Iron MArches who’s name I can’t recall, the three named negotiators of the Sinister Triad just outside Fort Vandal, and dozens of others.

Indeed Wanderer, besides in cases where they explicitly mention the boss returning.

IIRC, the fire shaman one (while being a diff name) they at the end go “Yeah, but they’ll send another one!”

Tequatl explicitly was constantly coming back :P.

Some bosses do have in-game reasons for returning though. One such example is Vilnia Shadowsong, the evil Raven Shaman in Snowden Drifts. When “killed”, her corpse takes on that translucent hue common to phantasms, and the Norn hunter NPC just outside mentions that Vilnia’s been thought killed several times before, suggesting that she’s used her Mesmer magic to fake her death and escape.

That fire shaman one is always the same name. Always the same guy. I think the line about sending another one is more of a lampshade joke over the fact that the events recycle.

My theory as to why we don’t see the body of Zhaitan after the Story mission is they chopped it up into little bits to use as Arah dungeon tokens! Not taking chances, it can’t resurect if we scatter all the bits of it accross the entire continent in adventurer’s pockets!

Bathos.6341:

My theory as to why we don’t see the body of Zhaitan after the Story mission is they chopped it up into little bits to use as Arah dungeon tokens! Not taking chances, it can’t resurect if we scatter all the bits of it accross the entire continent in adventurer’s pockets!

That’s a lot of chunks.

Also, there is an event where a Risen abomination reforms from a pile of body parts and you have to destroy it.

Really? Where is that event at? Don’t recall ever seeing it.

Though if it is in Orr then that would explain it. Never cared much for those events given how lackluster their lore-giving is.

Mount Maelstorm. The Asura krewe working on the undead parts.

They collect a bunch of undead/risen parts, and in their lab start putting them together… after a few parts connected the other parts start forming up on their own, and a risen abomination appears :P.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Really? Where is that event at? Don’t recall ever seeing it.

Though if it is in Orr then that would explain it. Never cared much for those events given how lackluster their lore-giving is.

Specifically, the Spaecia Illogica Waypoint on the west slope of the volcano (although it’s contested when the event is active). The pre-event is in Murkvale just to the west.

I know that event, but it doesnt seem to be up on the wiki. Strange.
It even has one of the asuras laughing maniacly saying “Its alive, its alive!…-oh. Its alive? Aaaaagh!” or something like that. Hilarious.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Really? Where is that event at? Don’t recall ever seeing it.

Though if it is in Orr then that would explain it. Never cared much for those events given how lackluster their lore-giving is.

Before mega server the event was usually stuck at the end, no-one could solo the abomination. So you rarely got to see it start.

Wanderer.3248:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Really? Where is that event at? Don’t recall ever seeing it.

Though if it is in Orr then that would explain it. Never cared much for those events given how lackluster their lore-giving is.

Before mega server the event was usually stuck at the end, no-one could solo the abomination. So you rarely got to see it start.

I beg to differ :P

I think my necro soloed it a short while ago when I first found out about the event (well, soloed with the npcs there because they hadn’t died yet).

It’s just kinda out of the way really.

I wonder if that event is tied to the Golems Eye as played out in The Ghosts of Ascalon book. It seems like the two are very similar.

I am doubtful. There’s no implication that the Golem’s Eye had anything to do with the risen. Keep in mind that in the novels the risen are said to keep moving even after dismemberment. Simple decapitation won’t stop the body or the head. Cut off an arm? That arm will still try to strangle you.

So it would make sense that the body parts would try to reform if in close enough proximity.

And the event IS them basically dumping the body parts into a pile and then putting together (IIRC) a leg, then the krewe leader noticing that other parts are connecting without anybody touching them. :P

Also, the Golem’s Eye was lost in Ascalon City no? I forget if the Asura who had been using it died there or not.

I believe he did die and the Eye was left behind. But that doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been found again. But such a find would have been remarked upon in game at the very least.

He survived. No mention of the Golems Eye though. But its largely irrelevent to the topic at hand, it has nothing to do with the risen.

As for that event though, its strange. The parts collected are from anything BUT an abomination, yet they come together on their own to form an abomination. All the while we later see in a PS mission that abominations are supposedly put together by other risen. Even though i take that PS with a grain of salt, as even Trahearne sounds shocked and surprised to discover an abomination, while players meet them from the first lvl1-15 areas…while Trahearne is supposed to be the specialist of everything risen.

Kranxx is the asura’s name, and he does indeed die. The fate of the Golem’s Eye was never touched upon after Kranxx headbutted Adelbern while atop the Tomb Guardian.

As for Trahearne’s shockedness, I think it was more of how abominations were made, rather than seeing an abomination.