Guild Wars 2

As the world goes on, the Charr have allied themselves with their most sworn enemies – the humans, whose remnants still plague Ascalon in the form of ghosts and separatists.

Historically speaking, if it were not for the Flame Legion, the Charr would have never conquered Ascalon, or breached the wall without the Searing Cauldrons. At the time, the Charr were in disarray and barbaric, knowing little else than the fact that “Aliens” backed up by immensly powerful beings took their ancestral lands – at the time, could a Charr really blame the Flame Legion for seeking out a power, as treacherous as it may have been, to rival that of the Humans of the time? While their devotion to the Titans was overly Zealous, they did get things done – possibly saved the Charr themselves from extinction if Ascalon were ever to expand eastwards.

Fast foward to the modern day, why exactly are the Flame Legion in such direct conflict with the others anymore? The Titans as far as one can see, are defeated and dormant. Even the Flame Legion in game does not appear to visibly worship anything specific any longer – in fact, they’re possibly in Greater disarray than they’ve ever been themselves. The “Effigies” hardly look as gods to worship, but rather constructs with fire elementals stuffed inside for power: is such a thing any worse than a steam tank? In the first path of the Flame Citadel, the one attempting to command the Effigy is not referred as priest, or any such term, but rather a Forgemaster, hinting that even the Flame Legion no longer worship “Effigies” but they are nothing else than tools of war. Finally, the Effigies look exactly like Charr – hardly a sign of worshipping anything different than themselves.

The females have by now proven their Worth (Although the discrimination against Female Charr didn’t really seem to have any solid reasoning to even be, but more added to portrait the Flame as “evil” ) and again, if Charr agreed to a truce with Humans, would they really be intent on slaughtering their own kind – which possibly wields power that would make the Charr, as whole stronger?

With the titans gone, no longer having any “god” to worship, enlighten me if there are any further reasons as to why the Flame Legion would not accept to bow their heads and re-join the others admitting their Titans were a mistake of their ancestors, rather than creating unlikely alliances with the Dredge(Who are among the most xenophobic races in the world), and ultimately be annhilated to the last.

There are hints that they still worship Baelfire, and I believe CoF p2 shows that there is yet a possibility of him returning.

As for why they wouldn’t join… well, several things. First off, as far females go, it’s not a matter of “worth” it’s a matter of “place”. Flame doesn’t cloister it’s women because they can’t fight, they do it because that’s where they belong. Given that Ash in particular has many high-ranking females, that’s one big reason.

Second, Flame isn’t beaten. They aren’t even in as bad a position as they were after Scorchrazor. Yes, their apparently recent territorial gains seem to have been overturned, and yes, last we saw there was disorganization- but for them to be working with the dredge at all means that there is once more an intact command structure. They have powerful new allies and weapons… honestly, I believe they are currently more dangerous than they were at the game’s outset.

Third, they still retain the shaman caste, which is anathema to the other legions.

Fourth, the other legions would not accept them back- yes, they have great power. Only a dead man allows someone with great power and a slippery, grasping reputation unfettered access to their backs.

Fifth, they seem to know something we don’t- or at least they think they do. At the end of Flame and Frost, a captured Flame Legion… shaman, I think he was… indicated something was coming that would would wipe us off the map, and that they Flame Legion would still be there after we were gone.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Fifth, they seem to know something we don’t- or at least they think they do. At the end of Flame and Frost, a captured Flame Legion… shaman, I think he was… indicated something was coming that would would wipe us off the map, and that they Flame Legion would still be there after we were gone.

Maybe they’re worshipping the ED Primordus?

I’ve heard people make that theory, but it doesn’t really hold water. They learned the hard way that destroyers kill their worshippers backin EotN, there’s nothing anywhere to suggest that they are even interacting with each other now, and until CoF and possibly to this day they worship Baelfire.

That said, it is possible that they are tapping into Primordus’ power… but other people pioneered that theory, so I’ll allow them to elaborate.

Is the Shaman caste so different from the solider caste that the other Legions use? It’s clear that the Tribune of a warband or Legion has undisputed power of life and death over its soldiers, and I’d wager that the most common way of attaining rank – humiliating your superiors in the Bane or straight out removing them, is present in the Flame Legion as well.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Fifth, they seem to know something we don’t- or at least they think they do. At the end of Flame and Frost, a captured Flame Legion… shaman, I think he was… indicated something was coming that would would wipe us off the map, and that they Flame Legion would still be there after we were gone.

I would think he meant Scarlet. If that’s the case, lol.

Yes. The shaman caste is an exclusive system, a magic only club. When magic users call all the shots, the interests of the rest aren’t represented, and it slides pretty quickly from there.

Also, seeing that the shamans are a religious group, opposing them is heresy. So no, the whole challenging your superiors thing wouldn’t be available to them. See EotN.

There is a major difference between humans and flame legion. Humans only ever tried to kill the charr. The charr may hate that, but it is acceptable to them, seeing as charr were constantly trying to kill them as well. Whereas, the flame legion tried to control the rest of the charr. This is apparently an unforgivable act among the charr by the look of it.

Every Legion tries to take command over the others, it’s just that the three allied Legions play a more subtle game than Flame.

Personally, I think it ridiculous that the charr can make peace with an enemy they hated for millennia but unable to make peace with their own kind which they hated for much less time.

But eh, I’ll admit to being a whiteknight on behalf of Flame and Baelfire. May he come back soon.

“The Flame Legion is condemned more for their worship of false gods and longtime oppression of the other legions than for the fact they have a preference for fireballs.”
http://www.onlinewelten.com/games/guild-wars-2/interviews/jeff-grubb-im-interview-zu-charr-7759/seite-3/

“The Flame Legion remains the most “magical” legion – that was their strength”

The Flame legion being magical isn’t a huge issue. it’s the continuance of the need for a god or gods that is the major hurdle. As ratchet said, trying to take command isn’t an issue but the Flame legion does it much less politically, forcing the other legions to be enemies rather than tenuous allies.

But shamans (magic users) run flame legion, rogues run Ash, engineers run iron, warriors run Blood. Who runs the charr isn’t the main problem (even though the FL ruined any casters chance from here on out). the desire to worship gods is the biggest issue that will continue to keep the FL isolated form the rest of charr society. they get rid of that and they can play with the other boys, in time.

I think the real issue is that Flame Legion rule changed charr society in ways that the other charr can’t accept. Religion. The idea that you have to be a spellcaster to reach high rank. Female servitude. When it comes to other legions… well, each legion would prefer that their imperator be the next Khan-Ur, but when push comes to shove they could probably accept one of the others. Flame policy, on the other hand, is deemed unacceptable to most non-Flame charr.

It is worth mentioning, though, that the Flame Legion was allowed to survive after the Battle of Golghein, on the basis that the Flame spellcasters would still be of use to the charr – and then, sometime between then and now, the Flame Legion turned around and repaid this mercy by becoming an insurgency. This might be part of the reason why they were more willing to make peace with Ebonhawke – they’ve made peace with the Flame Legion and been stabbed in the back. If they make a peace with humans… there’s a chance it will hold, particularly if it survives the first generation.

It’s also worth observing that in Ghosts of Ascalon, it’s mentioned that there are indeed charr that would rather make peace with the Flame Legion than with humans – it’s just that in the end, making peace with humans was less unpalatable. Probably because 1) the charr had developed a grudging respect for humans there, 2) the humans aren’t trying to change charr society, just defeat or make peace with it, and 3) by the time of Ghosts of Ascalon, there was a lot of precedent that charr and humans could actually make a good team if they set aside their differences.

That ^ +5 for Draxynnic

What is the problem however, if only a powerful spellcaster can attain rank in the Flame Legion? Most likely, only a proven engineer can reach a worthy position within Iron Legion warbands and likewise only the most cunning rogues can do so with Ash.

I think drax point was that it’s stated the charr would never allow another caster to rule them. So, they wouldn’t be eligible for the positon of Khan Ur because they had it and screwed the pooch (Unless they had a puppet khan-Ur of another class with his/her magic advisor as the real power). But it wouldn’t make them ineligible to rejoin charr society.

“No Charr in the new age would willingly suffer a Shaman to rule them.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Charr

Question: Is there a specific difference between a Shaman and any other kind of magic user? It seems like a separate subset of magic user.

You can turn that question on its head:

All the Charr territory we see was reconquered by the Flame Legion. Until they aided the defeat of Zhaitan, all the great victories of Charr society were by the Flame Legion. About all the other legions had to show for anything was the construction of the Black Citadel.

A legitimate question is would the Iron, Ash and Blood legions be allowed to rejoin the society they left?

Dustfinger.9510:

“No Charr in the new age would willingly suffer a Shaman to rule them.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Charr

I always found that a curious statement given that a quarter of Charr society apparently allows Shamans to rule them. Of course, I suspect any good Charr would resort to the No True Scotsman fallacy to answer that. Or maybe they think the average Charr in Flame territory is waiting for a Glorious March to Havana to liberate them.

Anyway, I think it is great for the story the Charr so despise those to whom they can thank for everything they have, call the ones they betrayed traitors and cannot suffer any Charr so ignorant they do not agree with the 3 legions.

Lostwingman.5034:

Question: Is there a specific difference between a Shaman and any other kind of magic user? It seems like a separate subset of magic user.

None at first, but because of the habits of the FL and the nature of RL shaman, we tend to equate “shaman” with some form of religion. But charr shaman are basically just magic users. Whether they have gods or not.

“The fall of the Charr Shamans from their height as leaders effected [sic] more than the Gold Legion. While Shaman [sic] are still considered useful to the war effort, they are also viewed as dangerous and subversive, and are almost universally scorned.”

We see how it affected the shaman of the other legions. The ones that would also have rejected the proven false gods.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

I always found that a curious statement given that a quarter of Charr society apparently allows Shamans to rule them. Of course, I suspect any good Charr would resort to the No True Scotsman fallacy to answer that. Or maybe they think the average Charr in Flame territory is waiting for a Glorious March to Havana to liberate them.

ya. A-net was definatly referencing modern general charr sentiment. Sans FL.

I can’t find it at the moment, but I believe it’s been said that most of the shamans of other legions defected before the battle. When push comes to shove, after all, the battle was about the future of the Shaman Caste, not the Flame Legion.

I think prior to Flame Legion control, “shaman” and “magic-user” were pretty much synonymous. Since Golghein, if not before, though, I think it’s become more specific – a shaman is a magic-user with a religion. Other magic-users may be shaman, and thus are under suspicion, but they’re not actually labelled as one unless they’re found to be worshiping something.

Elesh.6192:

What is the problem however, if only a powerful spellcaster can attain rank in the Flame Legion? Most likely, only a proven engineer can reach a worthy position within Iron Legion warbands and likewise only the most cunning rogues can do so with Ash.

Certainly, there are advantages to being of the “right” profession in a given legion, but I don’t think any of the other legions have it as an explicit rule like the Flame Legion does. In the other legions, you progress by proving you can do a good job for the Legion, and while that’s probably easier for some than others, it doesn’t seem to be a hard rule. The Flame, however, explicitly had a rule that you had to be a fire elementalist to reach high ranks.

Furthermore, even if it was a hard-and-fast rule with the other legions, there’s a safety valve – while it’s not trivial, if someone finds that they’d be better suited to another legion, it is possible to transfer to one where your skills will be more appreciated. The Flame, however, was imposing their rule on the entirety of charr society.

(It’s also worth mentioning that, while the legions have specialties, they all maintain a range of capabilities regardless. Blood may have the most front-line infantry, for example, but that doesn’t mean that the other legions have completely forsaken that role and the associated professions.)

draxynnic.3719:

I can’t find it at the moment, but I believe it’s been said that most of the shamans of other legions defected before the battle. When push comes to shove, after all, the battle was about the future of the Shaman Caste, not the Flame Legion.

I think prior to Flame Legion control, “shaman” and “magic-user” were pretty much synonymous. Since Golghein, if not before, though, I think it’s become more specific – a shaman is a magic-user with a religion. Other magic-users may be shaman, and thus are under suspicion, but they’re not actually labelled as one unless they’re found to be worshiping something.

Most did indeed surrender and defect back:

“The Shamans had no choice–outnumbered and outflanked, they surrendered rather than be eradicated. They were allowed to live because their magic was useful, but never again would they be allowed to dominate the Charr."

“While Shaman are still considered useful to the war effort,”

But they weren’t the ones that remained in the struggling FL:

“After the fall of the Titans and Kalla Scorchrazor’s rebellion, the Flame Legion was overthrown and cast down. With their mystic power shattered and their Shamans reviled, they barely had enough strength left to fight off the other legions and stay alive. The broken legion retreated northeast to their primary citadel at Hrangmer.”

“Those of the Gold Legion, hated and reviled, stood opposed to the other three, struggling to stay alive and find a way to regain their former place–within inches of the crown of Khan-Ur.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

So we see that even at points when the FL had no gods, the charr still had shaman in and out of the FL.

But I do agree. ‘Shaman’ does carry a very strong connotation of god worship because the legion known for their shaman are also known for their god worship. So, the term may indeed have fallen out of fashion when referring to any non-FL magic user.

I know you agreed Drax, that prior to flame legion rule, shaman and magic user were synonymous. I made a lengthy post demonstrating this a while back. i’ll try to find it.

Found it:

As I just did, you are confusing “shaman” with “shaman caste” by using them interchangeably.

Your own link demonstrates that the “shaman caste” was the ruling class during the searing when the Flame legion controled the charr. We also know that the Flame Legion is run by magic users. I will demonstrate that the caste of rulers during the searing is named after the class that makes it up.

caste
[kast, kahst] Show IPA
noun
1. Sociology.
a. an endogamous and hereditary social group limited to persons of the same rank, occupation, economic position, etc., and having mores distinguishing it from other such groups.
b. any rigid system of social distinctions. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/caste?s=t

“While Shaman are still considered useful to the war effort, they are also viewed as dangerous and subversive” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Charr

This demonstrates that shaman are still used but we know the Flame legion isn’t cooperating with the other High Legions and the other High Legions don’t use the Flame Legion.

“In the end, the Shamans of the rival legions met in secret, unified their differences, and swore to force each legion to follow these new gods.”
This demonstrates that each High legion had their own shaman before the shaman took power and established the shaman caste.

“One by one, the legions of the Charr fell beneath the control of these “gods” and their Shamans, and the Charr at last learned new magic”
This demonstrates that though these shaman were products of the new “gods”, the charr already had magic before the “gods”.

“One of the leaders of the Flame Legion at the time, Bonfaaz Burntfur, spurred the charge against the Wall, leading the Shamans in a further show of unity”
Again demonstrating how it was the magic users who were in charge, and how they weren’t restricted to one legion.

“During that time of occupation, however, the Charr learned a valuable lesson: they could conquer and hold territory, even without gods. Indeed, the trickery of the Shaman caste and their servitude…”
Demonstrating that the “shaman caste” is indeed the ruling magic users of GW1.

“Kalla Scorchrazor, overthrew the Flame Legion’s domination”
Demonstrating that it was indeed the Flame legion in controle at the time, even though each legion had their own shaman who worked together to to controle their own legions under the banner of the Flame Legion.

“the Flame Legion was overthrown and cast down. With their mystic power shattered and their Shamans reviled”
Confirming Flame leguion rule and conecting shamn to “mystic power”. Not just “ruling power”.

So while it is never plainly spelled out that the definition of shamn is "magic user’, we see that it is the case. Blood Legion is run by warriors, Ash by rogues, Iron by engineers and Flame is run by magic users and are refered to as shaman. Seaking of which, the Flame legion is also the reason that magic is distrusted, magic users are distrusted but still used by all Legions and uncoincidently, no other charr will accept shaman rule again.

The Flame Legion is doomed when they joined the Molten Alliance. They are now slave to someone else.

Only some of them did, though. Just as only some of the dredge Moletariate decided to join the Molten Alliance. The members of the Molten Alliance can probably be considered to be “heretical” breakaways from the more orthodox factions.

It’s actually not all that clear on the Flame Legion side – although it is likely that the Flame Legion is splintered enough (even before Baelfire fell – they’re effectively a guerilla legion anyway) that the actions of one cell does not necessarily reflect on others.