Crazy theory corner: tengu and Orr

Crazy theory corner: tengu and Orr

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

Was fixing up the tengu wiki article just now and noticed a few things! Nothing solid enough to document on the wiki, but thought the lore forum might be interested in it nonetheless!

  • The tengu took the awakening of Zhaitan to be a sign to return “home”, to Tyria. The tengu originally come from Tyria? Cool. The awakening of Zhaitan is some sort of positive sign? Strange, but whatever.
  • Talon Silverwing, in the Far Shiverpeaks outposts, states

My people tell tales of the day when we will be free, when our lands will be revealed by a heavenly star and rise. When that day comes, human, only then will our races live in peace.

How does this tie together with what we already know? Well, it confirms that it wasn’t the Great Tsunami that told the tengu to go to Tyria for some reason (which makes sense because, well, that wouldn’t make any sense), but rather the new star in the sky, which we know from Arah P1 signals the awakening of an Elder Dragon.

This is interesting because it tells us that the tengu have some awareness of ancient jotun astrology, which fits in nicely with some other hints (courtesy of Genzhou Talonrend) that the tengu have some knowledge of the Elder Dragons’ last rise, and are in possession of forgotten lore from those times. Why, or how? Who knows. We don’t know a lot about ancient tengu history, but if the tengu were counted among the elder races, you’d have thought someone would’ve mentioned it by now.

But then I reread Talon’s dialogue. I get how a star that coincides with Zhaitan’s awakening could be interpreted as a signal to return home. But how do you know where home is? And wouldn’t Primordus, or Jormag’s, awakening, have created stars as well? Something’s fishy here, namely (and I might have spoiled that in the title a bit), Orr. The secret’s in the second half of his quote. The tengu didn’t know where home is, they were waiting for a sign. And not just a sign, they were waiting for their lands to “be revealed […] and rise”. That wasn’t just some shadily structured, ambiguous dialogue – when Zhaitan awoke, Orr literally rose. Zhaitan’s awakening is also known as drum roll the Rising of Orr! The pieces have been have been here the whole time, just waiting for someone to put them together!

…well, sort of. All of this stuff fits together pretty perfectly, but what does any of it mean? The first thing that springs to mind is that the tengu consider Orr their homeland, and the star of Zhaitan’s awakening is how they learned of it (and how do you forget where your homeland is in the first place, anyway? Although it would explain why the tengu are such staunch defenders of their history). But if not in a lore sense, this doesn’t make much sense from a developmental point of view. With Zhaitan gone, the tengu have few obstacles to moving to Orr, but that would require revamping the entire region and seriously affecting the structure of the personal story, which ANet clearly didn’t plan to do (and this theory was based on evidence that was all available at release, so any interpretations would have to fit those parameters and whatever design trajectories that ANet had planned at release). And from a lore point of view, the tengu have had over a year now, so why haven’t they upped and left the Dominion of Winds? Because this interpretation is probably wrong, that’s why.

But all that aside, this stuff fits together. And I have the feeling it means something. It doesn’t have anything directly contradicting it (which isn’t exactly strong evidence in its favour, but isn’t a bad sign either), and it makes existing ~mysterious~ lore make more sense, which definitely makes it look good. But what, exactly, does it mean?

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

(edited by Tamias.7059)

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

it is a nice food for thought, and it does seem to fit perfectly, but as you said, if they haven’t moved an inch from the dominion of winds, then either they don’t care (doubtful), or it’s wrong.

i don’t know tengu lore nearly enough to say anything on the matter though.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

This is an amazing discovery! The jotun’s sky-sweeper shows a stellar match with the last time the dragons awoke.
-> What does this prove?
It shows that the awakening of the dragons is a natural and cyclical thing. The stars only indicate the passing ages. They do not determine events here.
-> When did it last happen?
Around ten thousand years ago. You know what this means? The Elder Dragons may have been responsible for the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Varra_Skylark

The star didn’t form until after Zhaitan’s death. They do not form for each Elder Dragon rise, but 1 star forms every 10,000 years. Formation of the stars hold no direct relevance to the Elder Dragon rising, they just mark passing of ages like clockwork and the Elder Dragons just happen to rise (shortly before) when the star’s forming light reaches Tyria.

Of course, Varra may be wrong as the time between this and the previous rise is not likely to be akin to older risings as the Seers and Six Gods likely screwed up their timeframe for waking/sleeping – what with the Seers making the original Bloodstone and starving them into hibernation, then their food suddenly skyrocketing (Abaddon’s gift of magic).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

it is a nice food for thought, and it does seem to fit perfectly, but as you said, if they haven’t moved an inch from the dominion of winds, then either they don’t care (doubtful), or it’s wrong.

i don’t know tengu lore nearly enough to say anything on the matter though.

I’ve managed to convince myself that there is some link to be made here – I’m sure the star in Talon’s dialogue refers to the star of Zhaitan’s awakening, and I’m (pretty) sure that the lands he refers to are the ruins of Orr. But the nature of the link still eludes me. I’m sure my “Orr = tengu Zion” theory is wrong, it was just the first interpretation of these new connections that came into my head. What I’m looking for is someone to help connect the dots! It was actually only reading Bahltek’s dialogue that I had the idea in the first place, so I’m thinking the answer (if it’s out there) really could be in any area of lore.

This is an amazing discovery! The jotun’s sky-sweeper shows a stellar match with the last time the dragons awoke.
-> What does this prove?
It shows that the awakening of the dragons is a natural and cyclical thing. The stars only indicate the passing ages. They do not determine events here.
-> When did it last happen?
Around ten thousand years ago. You know what this means? The Elder Dragons may have been responsible for the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Varra_Skylark

The star didn’t form until after Zhaitan’s death. They do not form for each Elder Dragon rise, but 1 star forms every 10,000 years. Formation of the stars hold no direct relevance to the Elder Dragon rising, they just mark passing of ages like clockwork and the Elder Dragons just happen to rise (shortly before) when the star’s forming light reaches Tyria.

Of course, Varra may be wrong as the time between this and the previous rise is not likely to be akin to older risings as the Seers and Six Gods likely screwed up their timeframe for waking/sleeping – what with the Seers making the original Bloodstone and starving them into hibernation, then their food suddenly skyrocketing (Abaddon’s gift of magic).

I think you’re misinterpreting Skylark’s dialogue in some way, none of what she says implies that there’s only one star born every 10,000 years, and the cinematic at the end of the mission (presumably meant to foreshadow Mordremoth in some way, rather than reflect the death of Zhaitan as you say) implies that new stars do form each time an Elder Dragon awakens. Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, after defeating the jotun stargazers Skylark says the following lines:

Yes, yes! This clearly shows some new stars in the firmament. And they line up with the Jotun designs!

The appearance of the Elder Dragons is reflected by the stars themselves. When they awaken, so do these new stars!

To me, this very strongly suggests that the stars awaken with the Elder Dragons.

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I never said the star reflected the death of Zhaitan – I said that the star’s light wasn’t visible from Tyria until Zhaitan’s death (that is, presuming that light travel works similarly in the GWverse, but even if it’s more instantaneous, the star didn’t form until Zhaitan’s death).

I don’t think it’s possible to misinterpret the line from Varra:

The stars only indicate the passing ages. They do not determine events here.

The stars do not determine the events on Tyria. They only indicate the passing of the ages.

The two events – the formation of stars and the risings of the Elder Dragons – coincide in the passing of eras, both happening 10,000 years at the same time. That’s what Varra is saying.

There’s no other way to interpret that, honestly. Even add in her earlier lines of “the appearance of the Elder Dragons is reflected by the stars” when added with the above line does not change the meaning. It’s an odd wording – perhaps there were two ideas going on as the dungeon dialogue was made – but with the latter the meaning is clarified greatly and shows: the two events (formation of a star; rough beginning of the ED risings) occur at the same time.

And the forming of the one star in no way indicates that it’s one star per Elder Dragon. For all we know, Mordremoth could already be awake. After all, when Primordus was pushed back 50 years (roughly), there should have been another Elder Dragon waking then. And given the whole 50-year waking thing, with Kralkatorrik’s waking 5 years prior to when the star’s formation is seen, it would be another 40-50 years before Mordremoth should awaken so that’s an odd time for the star to form if it were to be foreshadowing Mordremoth (thus, if it is a 1 star forms per ED, which Varra pretty much states is not the case, the star we saw forming is more likely to be for Kralkatorrik rather than Mordremoth).

Now, let’s just presume you’re right and her later dialogue after your quoted dialogue is wrong in that the stars “do not determine the events” of Tyria.

  1. Why would the tengu’s prophecy be about Orr specifically? There would be – by your belief – 6 (or more) stars that shine. Any of them could reveal land – and in a way, they do. Kralkatorrik’s presence revealed lands for Ascalonians via the latter peace, Primordus’ rise led the asura to rise to the surface and later, floating city of Rata Sum. Jormag’s rise “revealed” the southern lands to the norn.
  2. Prophecies tend to be metaphorical and very unclear. It’s unlikely to mean a literal star and land literally rising.
  3. I don’t think the tengu would really go after land claimed by an Elder Dragon. Corruption and all. Some of their knowledge on the ED hint that they, well, know of the Elder Dragons – possibly even from the previous rise.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Sirius.4510

Sirius.4510

I had always interpreted the “tengu Zion” to be the Dominion of Winds, where they already are. Why they chose that exact location I don’t know, but they do quite clearly consider it their land, and they are at a state of peace with humanity now as well (which would fulfill the other part of the prophecy).

The “heavenly star” could still be related – if they already knew they were tied to elder dragons, the originator of the prophecy may simply have been using that term to foretell a dragon rise clearing the way for them to claim their own lands once more. How they figured that out is also a mystery, although conversely you could also say it’s not exactly rocket science that elder dragons can cause chaos, upheaval and power vacuums.

Just a random PuGgle.
Stormbluff Isle ( http://www.stormbluffisle.com )

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

The connection has been made before.

It’s an interesting one to consider – one flaw is that, apart from some of the spirits around disabled Melandru statues, there’s nothing really to connect tengu to the land of Orr. Such signs could have been eradicated after they left, though.

However, unless they shared Orr with humans and/or the gods at some stage, I’m not sure there’s a timeframe since the last time the dragons were active when Orr was habitable and not already inhabited – one of the first things the gods did on arriving on Orr was making it once again habitable through the combined efforts of Balthazar, Dwayna and Melandru. Before then, it seems to have been held by the Forgotten (possibly explaining why the gods came there and not somewhere else, since of the elder races the Forgotten were the ones most closely connected to the gods) – and while other elder races may have taken refuge there under Glint’s protection, the tengu were very definitely not one of them. So if the tengu do have a historical claim to Orr, it most likely traces back to before the last rise – they fled their homeland to spread across the world in the wake of the dragons, and some time later, the Forgotten arrived and took refuge there.

That said, another explanation could be that the prophecy hasn’t actually been fulfilled yet. Other lands apart from Orr have ‘risen’ – Southsun Cove, for instance – and while the Dominion of Winds is technically not at war with humans or anyone else, a kingdom that xenophobically walls itself from all neighbours isn’t really technically at peace. The Great Tsunami calling them to the DoW may be a step along the way to the culmination, but the land foretold may not actually have risen yet.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: zamalek.2154

zamalek.2154

The tengu took the awakening of Zhaitan to be a sign to return “home”, to Tyria. The tengu originally come from Tyria? Cool. The awakening of Zhaitan is some sort of positive sign? Strange, but whatever.

Or a sign to pull together and reinforce. Possibly hide like the Seers did with Glint?

that the tengu have some knowledge of the Elder Dragons’ last rise, and are in possession of forgotten lore from those times. Why, or how? Who knows. We don’t know a lot about ancient tengu history, but if the tengu were counted among the elder races, you’d have thought someone would’ve mentioned it by now.

There was the uncounted race – their true identity unknown.

With Zhaitan gone, the tengu have few obstacles to moving to Orr, but that would require revamping the entire region and seriously affecting the structure of the personal story, which ANet clearly didn’t plan to do […] And from a lore point of view, the tengu have had over a year now, so why haven’t they upped and left the Dominion of Winds? Because this interpretation is probably wrong, that’s why.

Because time hasn’t moved on. It’s been a year in reality, but remember that all story-driven game live in this strange limbo. When a true expansion comes out that’s when time moves on. Possibly by a few years.

But what, exactly, does it mean?

Braham likes bacon, which makes him a true hero.

And the forming of the one star in no way indicates that it’s one star per Elder Dragon.

It stands to reason that the star would have certain properties to be aware of. A prophecy of any form would certainly be aware that Zhaitan would be the first to be fully let loose. Also keep in mind that a prophecies about a specific stars usually go into some detail about their appearance.

I don’t think the tengu would really go after land claimed by an Elder Dragon. Corruption and all. Some of their knowledge on the ED hint that they, well, know of the Elder Dragons – possibly even from the previous rise.

Considering that PT/Trahearne have cast that cleansing spell – you never know. If the Tengu playable race (or more NPCs) do happen at some point in the future we may learn more; but at this point in time the amount of content we have forces us into conjecture – and I think this is a stellar (haw haw) attempt at it.

Auroraglade
Epistemic.8013: Guys this is bullkitten a sentient plant creature is hitting these
wooden doors with fireballs and it’s working
.

(edited by zamalek.2154)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

that the tengu have some knowledge of the Elder Dragons’ last rise, and are in possession of forgotten lore from those times. Why, or how? Who knows. We don’t know a lot about ancient tengu history, but if the tengu were counted among the elder races, you’d have thought someone would’ve mentioned it by now.

There was the uncounted race – their true identity unknown.

There’s no uncounted race. Five races – according to jotun stalae – against six Elder Dragons.

Though it should be noted that jotun records are incomplete at best. We’ve learned since release that karka and djinn – both intelligent and sapient, though the former seemingly incapable of communication – were seemingly around during the last dragon rise.

“The Mighty Zommoros agrees to this audience. These “karka” creatures are familiar to me. Long ago, such creatures dominated the sea. They swarmed up from the depths, over shoal and shore alike."
→‘What do they want?
_"Who can say? *They haven’t been seen since the world was emptier and the continents held a different shape.* You must ask the aquatics, those that swim and have swum since ancient times."_

Given that all reliable records of jotun history say they only spread across the Shiverpeaks, it’s likely their own records of survivors of the Elder Dragons extends only to the continent of Tyria. So races not on continental Tyria could have survived as well – as well as Elder Dragons never reaching Tyria or Tyrian races. Though the ED part is less likely, given the jotun’s mythological records of a “sextant of swallowers” destroying the world multiple times.

Because time hasn’t moved on. It’s been a year in reality, but remember that all story-driven game live in this strange limbo. When a true expansion comes out that’s when time moves on. Possibly by a few years.

Not really. It won’t move on until ArenaNet touches it. I mean, Kessex Hills can be argued to be stuck in two timelines – as can Twilight Arbor. But it’s a pointless argument because ArenaNet seems not wanting to forcibly push things past the Personal Story.

It stands to reason that the star would have certain properties to be aware of. A prophecy of any form would certainly be aware that Zhaitan would be the first to be fully let loose. Also keep in mind that a prophecies about a specific stars usually go into some detail about their appearance.

I think Primordus and Jormag have fairly “fully let loose” already, what with an army of destroyers pushing asura, skritt, and other subterranean races out as well as battling an army of dwarves; and Jormag’s continuous push south that’s only slowed by kodan.

Zhaitan’s attack was just felt by all races first because of his proximity and the pure coincidence that an entire nation died on top of him.

And prophecies are – as I said – very, and intentionally, vague. The Flameseeker Prophecies, for examples, were mistaken to be referring to Turai and Palawa in the past. And if you look at what’s known, you can say it refers to Zhaitan and the GW2 PCs/Trahearne.

Considering that PT/Trahearne have cast that cleansing spell – you never know. If the Tengu playable race (or more NPCs) do happen at some point in the future we may learn more; but at this point in time the amount of content we have forces us into conjecture – and I think this is a stellar (haw haw) attempt at it.

Last time it took two gods to cleanse Elder Dragon corruption. The closest we got other than that was removing the fanaticism aka mental corruption of minions. There is no way in all that is holy or not for the tengu prophecy to be able to know that a race would be born and be able to cleanse dragon corruption, let alone just a means to cleanse corruption would be found.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: zamalek.2154

zamalek.2154

There was the uncounted race – their true identity unknown.

There’s no uncounted race. Five races – according to jotun stalae – against six Elder Dragons.

Check the link Konig. There is dialog at the bottom that hints at a 6th race – once again,
“hints,” anything can be drawn from what Trueclaw says – but it’s at least one cannon account of a sixth race if taken somewhat literally. There is a branch of lore theory (not my own) that indicates that there seems to always be 6 sentient races to counter the dragons.

Because time hasn’t moved on. It’s been a year in reality, but remember that all story-driven game live in this strange limbo.

Not really. It won’t move on until ArenaNet touches it. I mean, Kessex Hills can be argued to be stuck in two timelines – as can Twilight Arbor.

Exactly my point (I think the unclear bit there was “reality”, I meant “IRL”), it’s a strange timeline and takes a weird mindset to get the hang of it – but if you do you can start piecing things together.

There is no way in all that is holy or not for the tengu prophecy to be able to know that a race would be born and be able to cleanse dragon corruption, let alone just a means to cleanse corruption would be found.

And it still remains to be seen if PT/Trahearne’s plan works out – because we know how all things Trahearne end.

Auroraglade
Epistemic.8013: Guys this is bullkitten a sentient plant creature is hitting these
wooden doors with fireballs and it’s working
.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Check the link Konig. There is dialog at the bottom that hints at a 6th race – once again,
“hints,” anything can be drawn from what Trueclaw says – but it’s at least one cannon account of a sixth race if taken somewhat literally. There is a branch of lore theory (not my own) that indicates that there seems to always be 6 sentient races to counter the dragons.

You should check the link again. I know Trueclaw’s dialogue pretty well even without reading it, and I even humored you and checked. Here’s what I see:

  • Jotun, mursaat, forgotten, seer, dwarf. Five against six.
  • It’s accepted that there were five sentient races who fought the Elder Dragons the first time and survived.
  • I found out that there were five sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons the first time around… and survived to tell about it.

Nothing hints to a sixth race – nothing but the presumption that the jotun records which are being researched are incomplete or false, or rather that they’re just telling a subjective truth (the jotuns only knew of five sentient race survivors). The “Five against six” is five races fighting the six Elder Dragons.

And I know the theory you speak of, from reddit right? The one that claims Scarlet is making six races to survive the ED, working on the false assumption that the Elder Dragons allowed six surviving races to rebuild – it fails because the Elder Dragons didn’t allow anything, and it formed from a misconception on the GW2W’s wordings that could be interpreted to mean the Elder Dragons don’t just destroy the world’s life but creates it, which they don’t by all indication.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: SirMoogie.9263

SirMoogie.9263

I think by “hints” zamalek is referring to the lines:

Player: “Only five races?”
Scholar Trueclaw: “That we know of. […]”

This is not “in game” evidence of more than five races, as it’s just a statement of what the Priory knows. However, it is curious as a piece of writing. This line was written for a reason. It’s already established at this point in the dialogue that there are five races and other dialogue by the player could have furthered the conversation on why no helpful information is coming forward.

I’m not sure where you stand on including authorial intent in your model of Tyria. I think it should at the very least contribute some probability to a hypothesis about Tyria as what and how a writer chooses to present information is evidence about a writer’s intent, which directly affects what is true of Tyria.

(edited by SirMoogie.9263)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Which isn’t a hint to a sixth race, but that the jotun’s records may be incomplete – as I was stating. And as we now know to be a case, given Zommoros’ little dialogue on the karka (combined with Matthew Medina stating that the karka knew to avoid the Risen – meaning that they’ve interacted with Risen or something very similar before, and I doubt that the DSD’s minions are “something very similar” given the whole undead nature thingamajig). Honestly, aside from djinn and karka having been around during the previous rise, there’s heavy hints of tengu, kodan, and krait also having been around then. And there’s hints of at least one additional Elder Dragon, if not more.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: SirMoogie.9263

SirMoogie.9263

Which isn’t a hint to a sixth race, but that the jotun’s records may be incomplete – as I was stating.

It can be both, right? I’m not sure if we’re talking passed each other, or what you consider a “hint”. As a statement in game it is indeed a hint that the records are incomplete. However that it is a hint for that is not contradictory with the hypothesis that it is also a hint at more than five races. If we are including authorial intent, having the player character ask “Only five races?” is an interesting choice of phrasing to further the dialogue. The player could have asked, “Are the records so incomplete?”, or"How fares your task?" So many choices to further this conversation, yet the author chose, “Only five races?”

(edited by SirMoogie.9263)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Sure, it can be both. In one very, very specific meaning of the phrase.

It could hint at just one sixth race. It could hint at 20 more. It could hint at more Elder Dragons. It could hint at something unfathomable.

All the line says is “our information is incomplete.” And arguing that because of it there is just one more race out there and nothing else unknown is arguing such a specific possibility that the likelihood is… slim, to say the least.

And besides, as I have said three times now, we have seven races that survived: Karka and Djinn being the two additional. That line could be referring to them.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: SirMoogie.9263

SirMoogie.9263

And arguing that because of it there is just one more race out there and nothing else unknown is arguing such a specific possibility that the likelihood is… slim, to say the least.

Agreed. I was not arguing that. That is someone else. I may have misinterpreted them as saying there are more races, when they meant a specific number.

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Posted by: sephard.2470

sephard.2470

As far as I am aware the Mursaat ultimately betrayed the other 4 races.
So it is very plausible, that a sixth race would fill up their ‘space’ …

There was a thread, not long ago, how a guy thought the Asura would be ’today’s betrayers’.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

And prophecies are – as I said – very, and intentionally, vague. The Flameseeker Prophecies, for examples, were mistaken to be referring to Turai and Palawa in the past. And if you look at what’s known, you can say it refers to Zhaitan and the GW2 PCs/Trahearne.

Glint says, at the end of the final mission of Prophecies, that “the Flameseeker Prophecies are now complete.”

Given that she was the one who made the Flameseeker Prophecies, and she may well be the only one that had the full prophecies (I suspect she left off the end so Khilbron didn’t know the prophecies foretold that he’d die too), I think she knew what she was talking about.

Also, from memory, seeking “the flame” with the “power to destroy good and evil” is a major theme in the Flameseeker Prophecies, and that doesn’t really come into play with Orr – one could argue it’s a reference to the Searing Cauldrons or to Ascalonian ghostfire, but neither of these really have the central role in the defeat of Zhaitan that the Door of Komalie did in the Prophecies storyline.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Oh, I know that Glint states the Flameseeker Prophecies were for the Prophecies campaign. My point was that, canonically, Turai mistook those prophecies to be referring to Joko’s undead invasion, and that, without Glint’s confirmation, the events of GW2 could be seen as the Flameseeker Prophecies. The shiverpeaks are coated with blood (Dredge and Sons of Svanir warfare – the latter is also a civil war of sorts); Ascalon suffered a major cataclysm (Dragonbrand); Kryta’s within internal strife (Ministry) and assaulted externally (Centaurs); undead coming from Orr (Risen). All that’s missing is the mursaat, Ascension, and a power to defeat both good and evil (though the last could be argued to be the Pact, with the flame being the metaphorical “fires of war” (against dragon minions) idea).

In the end, my point is that all prophecies are extremely vague and most often metaphorical. The tengu’s prophecy would be included, most likely.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Syryn.7591

Syryn.7591

There are most definitely hints at a sixth race.
“Only five races?”
“That we know of.”
If your player is in the Order of Whispers you get additional dialogue:
“One must count the uncounted.”
“And name the unnamed.”

To say that dialogue doesn’t hint at a possible sixth race is rather odd to me considering Anet’s affinity for things coming in sets of “sixes”. I think it’s fair to regard it as a stretch but to write it off as not a possibility altogether seems a bit brash.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The “additional dialogue” as an Order of Whispers is just common Whispers code. Something the Unsomethinged; respond with Something else the Something elsed.

And in all honesty, no it doesn’t hint at “there are six races” – it just states “our records may not be complete.” This goes for everything about the time, not just “hey, there may be one and only one more race.”

Besides, as I said WE HAVE SEVEN RACES. Not five. Not six. SEVEN. Do people have selective reading considering how many times I’ve said this? KARKA AND DJINN WERE AROUND THEN, based on Zomorros’ dialogue during The Lost Shores.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

The “additional dialogue” as an Order of Whispers is just common Whispers code. Something the Unsomethinged; respond with Something else the Something elsed.

And in all honesty, no it doesn’t hint at “there are six races” – it just states “our records may not be complete.” This goes for everything about the time, not just “hey, there may be one and only one more race.”

Besides, as I said WE HAVE SEVEN RACES. Not five. Not six. SEVEN. Do people have selective reading considering how many times I’ve said this? KARKA AND DJINN WERE AROUND THEN, based on Zomorros’ dialogue during The Lost Shores.

i don’t think the karka would count. they’re giant territorial crabs. smart crabs, but still crabs. they don’t have any magic prowess, or capacity for development of tools. it doesn’t even look like they build their own shelter.

if you count them, you might as well start counting the skelk as a race fighting the dragons.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

If I may interject, I think we may be asking slightly the wrong question here. The following races (to my memory) have been explicitly stated to have lived throughout the last rise of the Elder Dragons:

  • Dwarves
  • Mursaat
  • Seers
  • Jotun
  • Forgotten
  • Karka
  • Djinn
  • Giganticus lupicus
  • Possibly many more, now-extinct races

Of these, five, the dwarves, jotun, mursaat, Seers, and Forgotten, presumably the “five against the six” referred to by Priory scholars, have been called “elder races”, suggesting an alliance against the Elder Dragons during their last rise. The djinn are mainly Elonian and so possibly unaffected by the Elder Dragons’ last rise, and the karka, though known to have been affected by Zhaitan (and probably the DSD) last time around, did not join this alliance but survived by some other means.

The question we want to be asking is not “were the tengu around during the last rise of the Elder Dragons”; to me it would seem quite probable that they were, in the absence of any tengu origin myth. What we need to know is were the tengu, at that time, a sufficiently advanced civilisation as to have been considered one of the “elder races”, i.e. a member of the alliance against the Elder Dragons. The evidence that has been presented so far is Scholar Trueclaw’s dialogue, or more specifically the player’s dialogue, which by consideration of authorial intent we may view as a hint that there were more than five “against the six”, in this alliance of elder races. But Konig is right to say that all that is said explicitly is that there were five races “that we know of” against the six, and that our records are incomplete. Any other interpretation must be purely subtextual.

I want to draw attention to the dialogue of Yuki Honestcrest, who refuses to disclose what has led the tengu to have a deep distrust of the other races, on the basis that the humans, norn, charr, asura, and sylvari are have not proven themselves “worthy” of such knowledge. On the face of it, it would be reasonable to assume that this was down to the actions of the Ministry of Purity and later, Emperor Usoku, in addition to the many years of oppression before that, but this is something already known to historians and not some deeply-guarded tengu secret, and we also need to remember that tengu come from all over the world and not just Cantha.

If we assume for a moment that the tengu were a member of the alliance of “elder races” against the Elder Dragons, then it would make sense that their distrust of other races stems from their betrayal at the hands (wings?) of the mursaat. This would neatly explain how the tengu know about jotun astrology and other ancient lore, and also maybe even provide a basis for speculation on their link to Orr (their home before the last rise of Zhaitan, perhaps?). But then we have another question on our hands, namely why (and how) was all mention of tengu involvement in the fight against the Elder Dragons seemingly expunged from the historical record? For this I have no ideas, and of the top of my head I can’t think of anything found in Orr that would even go some way toward explaining it. So sure, it’s fine to postulate that the tengu are one of the elder races, but then you have the difficult task of explaining why none of the (admittedly incomplete) other records make mention of this, and in fact in some cases (“five against six”, although I suppose this could have been written after the mursaat’s betrayal) directly contradict it.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

i don’t think the karka would count. they’re giant territorial crabs. smart crabs, but still crabs. they don’t have any magic prowess, or capacity for development of tools. it doesn’t even look like they build their own shelter.

if you count them, you might as well start counting the skelk as a race fighting the dragons.

The karka may not have aposable thumbs but they are highly intelligent per what was said – I believe by Matthew Medina around the time of the Lost Shores. This intelligence is also a contributor to avoiding Orr and the remaining Risen. And they do build their own shelter. IIRC, the lore of, well, pretty much the entire Karka Hive is that it was built out of a liquid that hardens into something harder than steel – they also use this on their shells, which is why the acid is needed.

We don’t know if they can communicate with non-karka or not, but we haven’t really tried either (and even then, maybe they “can” but “won’t”). But they’re definitely above “just crabs”. Just because they can’t write or have sophisticated tools doesn’t mean they’re “just crabs”.

They are sapient and intelligent. Thus they fit Scholar Trueclaw’s mention of “sentient races that survived.”

The following races (to my memory) have been explicitly stated to have lived throughout the last rise of the Elder Dragons:
[…]

  • Giganticus lupicus

Not really sure what you’re implying with the mention of the GL and “lived throughout”, to me it implies you’re suggesting some survived, so to ensure clarity only, the Giganticus Lupicus did not live through – at least as far as we know (there’s Priory members who hope/believe some still live, particularly mentioned in Arah if the NPC you’re escorting lived through the fight, I believe the sylvari outright mentions hoping to help/meet/cure the Risen GL’s kind if they’re found (or was it “if they’re still some left”)). The GL in Arah was a Risen even during the previous rise, per an interview between GuildMag and Ree/Jeff/Scott – rather, it was made during the previous rise. All indications give us that they were fully extinct sometime during the Giganticus Lupicus.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The djinn are mainly Elonian and so possibly unaffected by the Elder Dragons’ last rise,

Just want to interject here and say that we have no indication that the Elder Dragons were all or mostly in Tyria during the last rise.

Though there’s evidence of Primordus, Kralkatorrik, and Jormag having at least influence at the time in continental Tyria, Zhaitan and Mordremoth do not. In fact, to elaborate, Arah seems to have been around at the time – particularly the basilica that Glint was freed was there; in the same turn, it was under Forgotten control not Zhaitan (it seems unlikely to immense degrees for the Forgotten to purify Kralkatorrik’s champion in the heart of Zhaitan’s domain) – it seems that, if not the Forgotten, then Kralkatorrik controlled that land; and at (again) the same time, Kralkatorrik’s blood from the previous rise was found in the Crystal Desert by Glint over the time the ED slept, indicating that he was in battle over the Crystal Sea or Siren’s Bay at the time.

This leads me to personally believe that Kralkatorrik’s domain controlled much of eastern continental Tyria and possibly even reaching to Elona. Zhaitan’s domain thus would have been… not in continental Tyria. And both the presence of Jormag and Primordus is known only because of dwarven records and relics- relics of them are found even in Cantha thus it is possible they moved about, and could have received knowledge or relics of other Elder Dragons and brought them to continental Tyria. With the world’s magic being absorbed into the Bloodstone, kept in continental Tyria, it would be far from unlikely that the Elder Dragons came to Tyria in their “death” throes of hunger, and that they could, in fact, have been elsewhere in the world during the majority of their rise. Though theorycrafting, if such is the case then Jormag for sure wouldn’t have been in Tyria at the last dragon rising as he was on the northern edge of the continent/arctic seas when he awoke, only a champion in continental Tryia

Given all this, though the last dragon rise is highly unknown, from the scattered facts we can create theoretical scenarios for what happened and how. And such theories would not exempt djinn from ED influence just due to being in Elona.

What we need to know is were the tengu, at that time, a sufficiently advanced civilisation as to have been considered one of the “elder races”, i.e. a member of the alliance against the Elder Dragons.

I think this is still the wrong question. I think the proper question is “where would they have been during the previous dragon rise to not be included by the jotun?”

Djinn were in Elona; karka were in the depths and pushed to the shorelines. Jotun remained simply in the Shiverpeak Mountains as far as we know, but interacted with the dwarves (their nation(s) being hinted at being Southern/Central Shiverpeaks, Ascalon, and Blood Legion Homelands – later moved to Shiverpeaks for unknown reasons, perhaps charr) and Forgotten (who at least after the dragon rise spread across the known world).

If we assume for a moment that the tengu were a member of the alliance of “elder races” against the Elder Dragons, then it would make sense that their distrust of other races stems from their betrayal at the hands (wings?) of the mursaat. This would neatly explain how the tengu know about jotun astrology and other ancient lore, and also maybe even provide a basis for speculation on their link to Orr (their home before the last rise of Zhaitan, perhaps?). But then we have another question on our hands, namely why (and how) was all mention of tengu involvement in the fight against the Elder Dragons seemingly expunged from the historical record? For this I have no ideas, and of the top of my head I can’t think of anything found in Orr that would even go some way toward explaining it. So sure, it’s fine to postulate that the tengu are one of the elder races, but then you have the difficult task of explaining why none of the (admittedly incomplete) other records make mention of this, and in fact in some cases (“five against six”, although I suppose this could have been written after the mursaat’s betrayal) directly contradict it.

Not a bad theory, but per the above I don’t think that Orr was tengu land. Seems more likely to have been Forgotten (especially how after their arrival, the Six took near immediate claim of Arah and thus Orr). On top of that, I don’t see how the Caromi, Avicara, and Quetzal would not lay claim to Orr when they’re so close to it. Though admittedly, we have very little in the way of Tyrian tengu history.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

The following races (to my memory) have been explicitly stated to have lived throughout the last rise of the Elder Dragons:
[…]

  • Giganticus lupicus

Not really sure what you’re implying with the mention of the GL and “lived throughout”, to me it implies you’re suggesting some survived, so to ensure clarity only, the Giganticus Lupicus did not live through – at least as far as we know (there’s Priory members who hope/believe some still live, particularly mentioned in Arah if the NPC you’re escorting lived through the fight, I believe the sylvari outright mentions hoping to help/meet/cure the Risen GL’s kind if they’re found (or was it “if they’re still some left”)). The GL in Arah was a Risen even during the previous rise, per an interview between GuildMag and Ree/Jeff/Scott – rather, it was made during the previous rise. All indications give us that they were fully extinct sometime during the Giganticus Lupicus.

You misunderstand, perhaps I could have phrased that better. There were far more than six, or even seven races alive at the time of the last Elder Dragons’ awakening – there were the races above, for example, and possibly the largos, kodan, and krait, as well. And more than five seem to have survived (not necessarily including GL, I think this is where the confusion was). All of these would have struggled against the Elder Dragons, not just five of them. And all of this would have been known to Priory scholars for a while.

So when Scholar Trueclaw says “five against six”, she is not referring to the five races that happened to live at that time, but a specific alliance of five races. And when the player asks “Only five races?”, and Trueclaw responds with “that we know of”, the hint is not that there are more than five races opposing the Elder Dragons (this would hardly be a hint), but more than five races in that specific alliance.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

What we need to know is were the tengu, at that time, a sufficiently advanced civilisation as to have been considered one of the “elder races”, i.e. a member of the alliance against the Elder Dragons.

I think this is still the wrong question. I think the proper question is “where would they have been during the previous dragon rise to not be included by the jotun?”

Djinn were in Elona; karka were in the depths and pushed to the shorelines. Jotun remained simply in the Shiverpeak Mountains as far as we know, but interacted with the dwarves (their nation(s) being hinted at being Southern/Central Shiverpeaks, Ascalon, and Blood Legion Homelands – later moved to Shiverpeaks for unknown reasons, perhaps charr) and Forgotten (who at least after the dragon rise spread across the known world).

I think you’re suggesting that the tengu weren’t anywhere near the jotun during the Dragons’ last rise, which is why they weren’t present in the jotun records. We know that the tengu were spread across the world, including in the far north (as there is a house for the north wind). We know that there were Avicara tengu in the Southern Shiverpeaks 250 years ago, and Quetzal tengu in the Woodland Cascades also competed with jotun for territory at that time. And so, given as well that the tengu have specific knowledge of jotun astrology, I want to say that they interacted during the Elder Dragons’ previous rise, or at least had a mutual awareness of one another.

So then, if we’re still operating under the assumption that the tengu were one of the elder races, why don’t the jotun mention the tengu in their records, if not due to lack of proximity? As I said above, it could be that the tengu were one of the “five against the six” mentioned, replacing the traitorous mursaat. It could be that tengu joined the alliance after those specific records were created (although we have no reason to believe this, and from a narrative perspective it opens a bit of a stupid door where in principle any race could have joined the alliance).

Or, another explanation could be that the tengu in Tyria did not survive, or barely survived the last rise of the Elder Dragons. Perhaps the mursaat’s betrayal bought them to the edge of extinction, which could explain how guarded they are compared to other elder races who experienced equal betrayal. Or perhaps there was some other reason – in any event, the jotun records seem to be focused on the fight against the Elder Dragons, and do not make mention of the GL or any of the other extinct races, that we’ll never meet. If the tengu were presumed to be among them, it makes sense that they were not mentioned in the jotun records. It would also explain why the tengu did not immediately claim Orr – because the clans of Caromi, Avicara and Quetzal did not come to Tyria until much later, or at least were in no position to settle a continent. It would also explain how the tengu “forgot” that Orr was their homeland.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

If we assume for a moment that the tengu were a member of the alliance of “elder races” against the Elder Dragons, then it would make sense that their distrust of other races stems from their betrayal at the hands (wings?) of the mursaat. This would neatly explain how the tengu know about jotun astrology and other ancient lore, and also maybe even provide a basis for speculation on their link to Orr (their home before the last rise of Zhaitan, perhaps?). But then we have another question on our hands, namely why (and how) was all mention of tengu involvement in the fight against the Elder Dragons seemingly expunged from the historical record? For this I have no ideas, and of the top of my head I can’t think of anything found in Orr that would even go some way toward explaining it. So sure, it’s fine to postulate that the tengu are one of the elder races, but then you have the difficult task of explaining why none of the (admittedly incomplete) other records make mention of this, and in fact in some cases (“five against six”, although I suppose this could have been written after the mursaat’s betrayal) directly contradict it.

Not a bad theory, but per the above I don’t think that Orr was tengu land. Seems more likely to have been Forgotten (especially how after their arrival, the Six took near immediate claim of Arah and thus Orr). On top of that, I don’t see how the Caromi, Avicara, and Quetzal would not lay claim to Orr when they’re so close to it. Though admittedly, we have very little in the way of Tyrian tengu history.

Another explanation for why the tengu avoided Orr could be the knowledge that Zhaitan slept deep below, and could potentially rise again. There’s also the fact that Orr seemed to be barren and corrupted even after Zhaitan went back to sleep – from the Orrian History Scrolls we know that it was necessary for Balthazar to sweep Orr with a cleansing flame after his arrival, for reasons that are not made clear, and that it was Melandru who made it a green and flowering expanse, suggesting that it wasn’t habitable beforehand.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Something to note here…

In many other fantasy settings, dropping a line like “that we know of” would be a hint that there’s some hidden sixth (or further) race that was part of the alliance but for some dark or wholesome reason has been kept secret. This is done because in a lot of fantasy stories, the writers are more concerned with telling their story than building a world, and any extraneous material is a distraction to the audience – if, for instance, there’s mention of some powerful being on a mountaintop somewhere, then you can be pretty sure it’s a Chekhov’s Gun and sooner or later someone is going to go to that mountaintop and do something with that entity.

ArenaNet, however, is not like that. They love to fill their world with extraneous information and artifacts, and has been shown a few times, even downright misinformation – because in a believable world, not every legend is going to be true, and not every offhand remark is going to be of major significance. There are things from way back in Prophecies that, in other franchises, would be Chekhov’s Guns that you could expect to be fired in the first expansion, maybe the second, but were never further developed and were probably never intended to do anything more than add to the ambiance of the world.

That is, I think, what Scholar Trueclaw’s statement is most likely intended to be. It’s not a foreshadowing of a secret sixth part of the alliance – it’s simply a scholar agreeing, when asked, that the available records are not complete enough to rule out the possibility.

It’s also worth noting that plotwise Scholar Trueclaw’s conversation probably predates the Pact’s invasion of Orr, and in fact the founding of the Pact at all, and as yet we haven’t seen anything in Orr that suggests an expansion of the five in that alliance.

(There is, however, good reason to believe that there were other races around at the time – they just weren’t part of that alliance.)

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

i don’t think the karka would count. they’re giant territorial crabs. smart crabs, but still crabs. they don’t have any magic prowess, or capacity for development of tools. it doesn’t even look like they build their own shelter.

if you count them, you might as well start counting the skelk as a race fighting the dragons.

The karka may not have aposable thumbs but they are highly intelligent per what was said – I believe by Matthew Medina around the time of the Lost Shores. This intelligence is also a contributor to avoiding Orr and the remaining Risen. And they do build their own shelter. IIRC, the lore of, well, pretty much the entire Karka Hive is that it was built out of a liquid that hardens into something harder than steel – they also use this on their shells, which is why the acid is needed.

We don’t know if they can communicate with non-karka or not, but we haven’t really tried either (and even then, maybe they “can” but “won’t”). But they’re definitely above “just crabs”. Just because they can’t write or have sophisticated tools doesn’t mean they’re “just crabs”.

They are sapient and intelligent. Thus they fit Scholar Trueclaw’s mention of “sentient races that survived.”

regarding the hive: i couldn’t remember if it was just a cave or something built, so i’ll concede that one.

on intelligence: one of the most basic tests of intelligence is the capacity to use basic tools and solve simple puzzles. you don’t need opposable thumbs or sophisticated technology for that. a bird that uses a rock to break a peanut is using a tool, for example.

the karka’s social structure is akin to bees, their “avoiding of orr” is the basic instinct of survival that comes packed with every sentient being (ever heard how wild animals run away from storms before they happen?), and they don’t seem able to use tools. yes, they’re very intelligent… for crabs. just like you can say that parrots are very intelligent birds, or how we say dolphin are incredibly intelligent (which they are, but not on par with humans).

i can’t see anything about the karka that determines their intelligence is on par with what we consider “sentient races” (even though sentient is a poor term)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

You misunderstand, perhaps I could have phrased that better. There were far more than six, or even seven races alive at the time of the last Elder Dragons’ awakening – there were the races above, for example, and possibly the largos, kodan, and krait, as well. And more than five seem to have survived (not necessarily including GL, I think this is where the confusion was). All of these would have struggled against the Elder Dragons, not just five of them. And all of this would have been known to Priory scholars for a while.

So when Scholar Trueclaw says “five against six”, she is not referring to the five races that happened to live at that time, but a specific alliance of five races. And when the player asks “Only five races?”, and Trueclaw responds with “that we know of”, the hint is not that there are more than five races opposing the Elder Dragons (this would hardly be a hint), but more than five races in that specific alliance.

Well I said I might be misunderstanding, so…

And I don’t think there’s any reason to believe the largos were around at the time – there’s nothing to indicate ancient knowledge, let alone knowledge on the Elder Dragons. As I see it, only tengu, kodan, and krait are contenders as we presently see. Other races may have been on grawl level at best in terms of social development (charr, quaggan, etc.) depending on which were and weren’t brought to the world with humanity (or some other means).

And what Trueclaw refers to is not necessarily those who fought the Elder Dragons together, but those who survived the Elder Dragons. She mentions that the records indicate five surviving races, not five united ones. Her dialogue actually doesn’t indicate any kind of alliance at all – the five races could easily have fought separately. Though it seems that – until the betrayal – seers and mursaat worked together, somewhat (otherwise it wouldn’t be a betrayal – but hey, maybe it wasn’t).

I think you’re suggesting that the tengu weren’t anywhere near the jotun during the Dragons’ last rise, which is why they weren’t present in the jotun records. We know that the tengu were spread across the world, including in the far north (as there is a house for the north wind). We know that there were Avicara tengu in the Southern Shiverpeaks 250 years ago, and Quetzal tengu in the Woodland Cascades also competed with jotun for territory at that time. And so, given as well that the tengu have specific knowledge of jotun astrology, I want to say that they interacted during the Elder Dragons’ previous rise, or at least had a mutual awareness of one another.

So then, if we’re still operating under the assumption that the tengu were one of the elder races, why don’t the jotun mention the tengu in their records, if not due to lack of proximity? As I said above, it could be that the tengu were one of the “five against the six” mentioned, replacing the traitorous mursaat. It could be that tengu joined the alliance after those specific records were created (although we have no reason to believe this, and from a narrative perspective it opens a bit of a stupid door where in principle any race could have joined the alliance).

What I was more suggesting is that they didn’t come into contact with jotun or the dwarves, as the dwarves have a few records the Priory has obtained too.

The tengu were spread out in recent centuries. Nothing indicates they were so spread during the previous dragon rise. Their North house is likely referring to the three continental Tyria tribes, IMO, given that north of Tyria is the arctic seas (i.e., near the north pole). So unless there’s penguin styled tengu… Yeah.

You’ve mentioned the tengu having specific knowledge of jotun astronomy (I believe that’s the right term here, not astrology), but we don’t ever see this in-game. Just because they have a prophecy about a star doesn’t mean they knew jotun astronomy – the humans, after all, had prophecies as well as timetables based around the stars, but they didn’t know of jotun astronomy. So you need to stop presenting theory as fact.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

on intelligence: one of the most basic tests of intelligence is the capacity to use basic tools and solve simple puzzles. you don’t need opposable thumbs or sophisticated technology for that. a bird that uses a rock to break a peanut is using a tool, for example.

But do the karka have hands? Claws? Not that I see. They have nothing but their mouth to grab with. How can one use tools other than buttons like that?

the karka’s social structure is akin to bees, their “avoiding of orr” is the basic instinct of survival that comes packed with every sentient being (ever heard how wild animals run away from storms before they happen?), and they don’t seem able to use tools. yes, they’re very intelligent… for crabs. just like you can say that parrots are very intelligent birds, or how we say dolphin are incredibly intelligent (which they are, but not on par with humans).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/No-Risen-Karkas/first#post1156321

and they’re certainly smart enough to understand the threat they represent.

“understand the threat they represent” indicates more than mere survival instinct. Instinct doesn’t understand, it just does. That’s certainly above mere wildlife, and is even more comprehending than some sapient lesser races (like the grawl) who don’t see the threat of the Elder Dragons.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

well on my bird example, they use their beaks. i imagine that if the karka were to add wood or rocks to their shelter, they’d do the same.

and again, an animal can understand a threat, and even change habits of an entire species based on that. for example, crows are known to avoid areas where crow shootings are common, or rather, were common, because no crow passes by those areas anymore. or any prey will try to avoid areas where they know their predators are.

and for the record, it’s not that i have some sort of bird bias, i just happen to know a bunch of bird facts tied to their intelligence :P

as for grawl, some revere the dragons, and some understand their danger, some are oblivious to it because they live nowhere near dragon threat areas. IIRC you even get to recruit a few to the pact.

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Posted by: Sirius.4510

Sirius.4510

The tengu were spread out in recent centuries. Nothing indicates they were so spread during the previous dragon rise. Their North house is likely referring to the three continental Tyria tribes, IMO, given that north of Tyria is the arctic seas (i.e., near the north pole). So unless there’s penguin styled tengu… Yeah.

This does recall to my mind one detail. We are told that in the distant past, the ancestors of tengu were able to fly. We don’t know how distant that was – normally changes that large could be expected to take millions of years – but it is interesting that somehow they know this. How? It could be something relatively boring like paleontology – which may well exist in the GW2 (maybe 1?) timeframe – but it does make me wonder if something a little more strange happened recently enough for traces of knowledge to survive to the present day.

If that happened after the dragon-rise, it might explain why there are tribes all over the place and they weren’t mentioned by the dwarves or jotun – they could have come from a different continent originally. It’s not a necessary explanation, though, since humans dispersed to multiple continents without the benefit of flight. There would also be the awkward question of why tengu were around to witness the last dragon-rise but waited until after it to travel further afield.

Just a random PuGgle.
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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

And what Trueclaw refers to is not necessarily those who fought the Elder Dragons together, but those who survived the Elder Dragons. She mentions that the records indicate five surviving races, not five united ones. Her dialogue actually doesn’t indicate any kind of alliance at all – the five races could easily have fought separately. Though it seems that – until the betrayal – seers and mursaat worked together, somewhat (otherwise it wouldn’t be a betrayal – but hey, maybe it wasn’t).

I get that, but Trueclaw would have known that more than five races survived, so the five races she’s referring must have some other criteria distinguishing them from the other races of the time – the only one I can think of is the fact that they were allied with one another.

You’ve mentioned the tengu having specific knowledge of jotun astronomy (I believe that’s the right term here, not astrology), but we don’t ever see this in-game. Just because they have a prophecy about a star doesn’t mean they knew jotun astronomy – the humans, after all, had prophecies as well as timetables based around the stars, but they didn’t know of jotun astronomy. So you need to stop presenting theory as fact.

Correct me if I’m putting words in your mouth, but I think we’re seeing this thing with the stars differently. I think you’re seeing as the awakening of a star coinciding with the rise of the Elder Dragons in the jotun records, and so the stars can be used to measure time but are otherwise unrelated to the Elder Dragons.

This would be astronomy, but I see it differently. The way I read it, every time an Elder Dragon awakens, a new star appears in the night sky.

Yes, yes! This clearly shows some new stars in the firmament. And they line up with the Jotun designs!

The appearance of the Elder Dragons is reflected by the stars themselves. When they awaken, so do these new stars!

When they awaken, so do these new stars. Stars, plural. I think this could be understood as a 1:1 correspondence between Elder Dragon awakening and star appearance, so to speak. Then the appearance of a new star at the end of Arah makes more sense, because it can be understood to be a foreshadowing of the awakening of a new Elder Dragon. And sure, Varra says that the stars appearing do not determine the events in Tyria, but there’s nothing to say that the reverse can’t be true (i.e. events in Tyria can determine the night sky).

The only other thing I think we know about the stars in Tyria is

The gods can be seen in the heavens… to varying degrees. They’ve emblazoned their marks upon the firmament, and these marks are not constant.

which I’m sure ties into this in some way, I just can’t see how.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I get that, but Trueclaw would have known that more than five races survived, so the five races she’s referring must have some other criteria distinguishing them from the other races of the time – the only one I can think of is the fact that they were allied with one another.

What makes you say that? She, in fact, states that as far as she knows, there were but five surviving sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons – “that we know of” referring to that. Five surviving sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons. There’s no mention of unification or alliances or indication of such.

But still, why would Trueclaw have known more had survived? What evidence do you have for such?

Correct me if I’m putting words in your mouth, but I think we’re seeing this thing with the stars differently. I think you’re seeing as the awakening of a star coinciding with the rise of the Elder Dragons in the jotun records, and so the stars can be used to measure time but are otherwise unrelated to the Elder Dragons.

This would be astronomy, but I see it differently. The way I read it, every time an Elder Dragon awakens, a new star appears in the night sky.

Your not putting words in my mouth, and I’m not questioning the jotun having astronomy – that’s a confirmed fact.

What I am asking is why you claim a definitive knowledge of tengu knowing jotun astronomy. You provided no reason for why the tengu would know jotun astronomy.

When they awaken, so do these new stars. Stars, plural. I think this could be understood as a 1:1 correspondence between Elder Dragon awakening and star appearance, so to speak. Then the appearance of a new star at the end of Arah makes more sense, because it can be understood to be a foreshadowing of the awakening of a new Elder Dragon. And sure, Varra says that the stars appearing do not determine the events in Tyria, but there’s nothing to say that the reverse can’t be true (i.e. events in Tyria can determine the night sky).

Stars, plural. True. But more than one star came to be over the multiple cycles.

If events on Tyria determined the night sky, which isn’t impossible to argue then the stars would not be a proper tool of timetelling, which Varra also says is the case:

This is an amazing discovery! The jotun’s sky-sweeper shows a stellar match with the last time the dragons awoke.
→What does this prove?
It shows that the awakening of the dragons is a natural and cyclical thing. The stars only indicate the passing ages. They do not determine events here.
→When did it last happen?
Around ten thousand years ago. You know what this means? The Elder Dragons may have been responsible for the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus!

See the bold.

Varra uses the stars appearing in the sky as an indication of ages passing. It would not be very reliable of the formation of stars was determined by events in Tyria.

The only other thing I think we know about the stars in Tyria is

The gods can be seen in the heavens… to varying degrees. They’ve emblazoned their marks upon the firmament, and these marks are not constant.

which I’m sure ties into this in some way, I just can’t see how.

We know a bit more, actually.

Canthans had long lasting astrology which ties into their celestials and they used to determine the ages, foretelling things in the stars – per An Empire Divided. The Sky Scholars of Istan that I linked above also used stars to effectively see the future – and rather accurately, might I add. But all of these events deal with gods, no dragons.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Well… they believe that the’re associated with gods.

There’s still the possibility that someone – the gods, or some other entity with power over the stars – is triggering star formation as a warning re: the dragons.

When it comes to time telling… as someone who’s studied astrophysics, then in a universe where astrology is actually a thing, then having stars as a method of telling time is not actually incompatible with them changing due to events on Tyria. All you’d need is to have some stars that are constant, while others change according to events, divine activity, and so on.

From the aforementioned astrophysicist perspective, I’d say that this would likely involve the first group actually being stars as modern science knows them, while the second group is something different – indistinguishable from conventional stars through the means available to modern Tyrians, but something different nonetheless.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

What makes you say that? She, in fact, states that as far as she knows, there were but five surviving sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons – “that we know of” referring to that. Five surviving sentient races that fought the Elder Dragons. There’s no mention of unification or alliances or indication of such.

But still, why would Trueclaw have known more had survived? What evidence do you have for such?

It’s an assumption. If we know that there were, then it means that the information’s out there, and it’s exactly the sort of thing a Priory scholar should know.

Not directly relevant, but I was reviewing the Lost Shores dialogue and something Zommoros said jumped out at me. He says,

You must ask the aquatics, those that swim and have swum since ancient times.

This, to me, suggests that the quaggan, hylek and largos are all at least as old as Zommoros and thus date back to before the last rise of the dragons. Sadly nothing these races say when you go and talk to them about the karka gives us any more information – most of their knowledge of the karka comes from recent experience.

Your not putting words in my mouth, and I’m not questioning the jotun having astronomy – that’s a confirmed fact.

What I am asking is why you claim a definitive knowledge of tengu knowing jotun astronomy. You provided no reason for why the tengu would know jotun astronomy.

They had a prophecy where a star would appear and their lands would rise, and they interpreted Zhaitan’s awakening as fulfilling this prophecy. Sure, lots of races have prophecies, some of them involving the stars, but the only race we know of that links stars with Elder Dragons awakening is the jotun.

Stars, plural. True. But more than one star came to be over the multiple cycles.

If events on Tyria determined the night sky, which isn’t impossible to argue then the stars would not be a proper tool of timetelling, which Varra also says is the case:

This is an amazing discovery! The jotun’s sky-sweeper shows a stellar match with the last time the dragons awoke.
->What does this prove?
It shows that the awakening of the dragons is a natural and cyclical thing. The stars only indicate the passing ages. They do not determine events here.
->When did it last happen?
Around ten thousand years ago. You know what this means? The Elder Dragons may have been responsible for the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus!

See the bold.

Varra uses the stars appearing in the sky as an indication of ages passing. It would not be very reliable of the formation of stars was determined by events in Tyria.

Why can’t it be both? If the dragons awake cyclically, then the corresponding stars will also appear cyclically. Then they can be used to measure the passing of time.

We know a bit more, actually.

Canthans had long lasting astrology which ties into their celestials and they used to determine the ages, foretelling things in the stars – per An Empire Divided. The Sky Scholars of Istan that I linked above also used stars to effectively see the future – and rather accurately, might I add. But all of these events deal with gods, no dragons.

As you say, everything we know so far deals with gods, but this is still good stuff, and I’m sure it relates to the Elder Dragons in some way (not saying that the Elder Dragons have any direct relation to the gods, though – I’m not in that camp). Could be a warning from the gods, as draxynnic says, could be something else.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It’s an assumption. If we know that there were, then it means that the information’s out there, and it’s exactly the sort of thing a Priory scholar should know.

An assumption you presented as a cold hard fact.

Not directly relevant, but I was reviewing the Lost Shores dialogue and something Zommoros said jumped out at me. He says,

You must ask the aquatics, those that swim and have swum since ancient times.

This, to me, suggests that the quaggan, hylek and largos are all at least as old as Zommoros and thus date back to before the last rise of the dragons. Sadly nothing these races say when you go and talk to them about the karka gives us any more information – most of their knowledge of the karka comes from recent experience.

To me, it just means that Zommoros knows of other aquatic races in the area, some possibly being old as well, which have met with the karka even in modern times. “Ancient times” can mean a multitude of things, and certainly doesn’t mean “as old as Zommoros” nor “as old as the last rise”. And the line means “at least one is an old race” not all three, and certainly not as old as the last rise – though certainly possible. It’s worth considering. But the hylek seems to only know of them by word of mouth, not racial history, so I think we can cut them out, leaving the quaggan and largos as being “ancient”.

But again: “Ancient times” doesn’t mean the last dragon rise. Humans are called ancient too by many races, such as the dredge.

They had a prophecy where a star would appear and their lands would rise, and they interpreted Zhaitan’s awakening as fulfilling this prophecy. Sure, lots of races have prophecies, some of them involving the stars, but the only race we know of that links stars with Elder Dragons awakening is the jotun.

Uh, they did not interpret Zhaitan’s rise as this prophecy. At least, nothing says this. They took that as a sign to head to Tyria. When Sandgo says “Then the Great Tsunami of Orr’s rising heralded our journey home, to our city.” he could easily mean their current home not their prophesied home.

So thus far, nothing really claims that the tengu linked stars with Elder Dragons.

Why can’t it be both? If the dragons awake cyclically, then the corresponding stars will also appear cyclically. Then they can be used to measure the passing of time.

Because who’s to say that the dragons awake in the same amount of time, each time? Varra speaks – as I interpret it at least – as if the stars form with set timespans from each other. The Elder Dragons would wake when the world has enough magic to stir them. The time between the previous and this dragon rise would be shorter than previous ones thanks to the Seers and Six Gods.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

Why can’t it be both? If the dragons awake cyclically, then the corresponding stars will also appear cyclically. Then they can be used to measure the passing of time.

Because who’s to say that the dragons awake in the same amount of time, each time? Varra speaks – as I interpret it at least – as if the stars form with set timespans from each other. The Elder Dragons would wake when the world has enough magic to stir them. The time between the previous and this dragon rise would be shorter than previous ones thanks to the Seers and Six Gods.

I’ve heard this said before, but I think you’re thinking about it too hard. You can’t impose too rigorous logic on a video game story – actually, if you take this train of thought to its logical conclusion, the dragons should have started waking up around the time of the Exodus.

That’s not the main reason I revived this thread, though. Whilst playing through A Light in the Darkness on my norn I noticed this dialogue from King Reza:

Zhaitan can be defeated, but that will not save Orr. The land must be cleansed of this poison. Seek the source…

To which the player responds, “Is Zhaitan the source, or is there some other poison that fouls Orr? Please, tell us!” If, as SirMoogie said, we can include authorial intent as part of our model of Tyria, then I would view this as a hint that although the corruption in Orr is usually attributed to the Elder Dragons, there may be other agents at work (sound familiar?) No link to the tengu, but there’s definitely a hint here that there’s a lot we’ve yet to discover about Orr.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

That line was just our character trying to make sense of what the king meant by “source”. At the time we made the logical assumption that Reza meant the source of the corruption, but as we later discovered, he really meant the source of Orr’s magic, the only place from whence the corruption could be cleansed. The “authorial intent” of that line was to slip us a red herring in order to jerryrig a mystery.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Indeed. As Aaron said, or rather implied, the source Reza talks about is The Artesian Waters – hence the story step “The Source of Orr”.

As to the Elder Dragons waking during the Exodus… Well, who’s to say they didn’t begin stirring and that’s in part why the Six Gods left? Though less speculative, keep in mind that magic was only gifted in large for a relatively short time (perhaps too short for the Elder Dragons to suddenly wake up) and, perhaps more importantly, the Six Gods siphoned magic from at least one Elder Dragon when strengthening the Bloodstone to reseal magic.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.