Guild Wars 2

Can’t say much more other than “I agree”. Wonderful story instance, ANet.

I have to be a bit more critical here, but first off i really liked the story part here as well.

However, i do not think the Kasmeer part fitted the whole thing. To me it felt like they took one of their story-blogs and just dumped it into the szene to get the last questions sourounding this character out of the way before the big finale.
The day being heing her fathers birthday just felt a way to let her say that (even though she is not part of the group fighting against the marionette).

Yes, we wanted more story in the game, instead of outside sources, however this felt a bit clunky for me.
I would prefered to have this be a part that we got before, maybe in deads end for example, when the two of them had some “down-time”.

Ignoring all that, i really liked this part. The writing good and the performances of the actors were satisfying.
Though Rythlok felt a bit under the weather. I do not know if that was intentional. If it was because he was otherwise peocupied (you know, LS and PS not merged, so he basicly still has to turn up for AC, CoF and Arah, fighting the Zaithan and stuff), so he does not really care for the troublemaker Scarlet, or if it was the directors fault.
He felt old, depressed and annoyed by all this, making me wonder if Scarlet really is a thread to Tyria, which in my opinion is not how this should have been here.

With the priory we got some basic info about Scarlet again… it felt a bit lackluster: “did you know she gathered the elements? that she went for knowledge.”
For new players it was a good thing, do not get me wrong, but braking it down to “just gathering forces of the four elements” somehow took me by suprise. I really hope it is not that simple, because this would be a disapointment in my eyes.
Though it would if each army is repesent an element in which they are able to attack from, then it would fit the “speciality” idea some were throwing around.

Do we have to call them the “Element Alliance” now?

For our new asuuran friend, which has beend needlessly spoilered by the press.
I like her. She reminds me of the brat in “wrecking ralph” the whole design and attitude.
However now we have, again, an character which will be (if the interviews are right) part of the main group, who just comes along with now explanation.
Supposedly Zoijas apprentice or something, she just pops up and goes on peoples nerves (not in a bad way).
While i understand that there are some characters where it is hard to get the voiceactors for (Zoija was mentioned somwehere with felicia day), i would like her to have an appearance or mentioning somewhere before.
Maybe running around on wintersday, guarded by her mentor or something. She wouldn`t even have to have her golem for that, while being her snarky little self.

Now she feels a bit out of nowhere and with her name and interest/understanding in/of Scarlet she can go in two direction: the deus machina which saves the day (she is an asura you know, we all know if it is no Silvary it will be asuran technobabble that saves the day), or she takes her side… though in my opinion it might be something in between.

Overall. It was very good effort here and definetly a lot of steps into the right direction. Nicely done, i tip my imaginary hat.

btw. could you please get some of your designers to draw/animate Rox with a piece of Zaithans tail over her shoulder? maybe even dumping it on Rythloks desk at the end if she decided to not join him? “here is your stinking tail”
That would be awesome

Yep, congratulations, it was nicely done!

Only Logan’s text chat about Rytlock’s warband I missed, he ran away. That was rude to run away in middle of conversation with my character!

But other than that, it was very well done, especially since I usually stick my nose everywhere before following main objective (the Priory person), and I was not disapointed!

Agreed, it was great.

On a less lore-related topic: I’ve grown so fond of the marionette battle that I’m even starting to like Scarlet more. It feels really dynamic, everyone has to work together and anet has clearly tried to make it less zerg and more tactical.
This is LS patch is just good in it’s whole I think.
Kudos anet.

Jaken.6801:

I have to be a bit more critical here, but first off i really liked the story part here as well.

However, i do not think the Kasmeer part fitted the whole thing. To me it felt like they took one of their story-blogs and just dumped it into the szene to get the last questions sourounding this character out of the way before the big finale.
The day being heing her fathers birthday just felt a way to let her say that (even though she is not part of the group fighting against the marionette).

The story about her father relates back to her Dragon Bash/Sky Pirate dialogue. Which was easily missed by a lot of people.

“This festival reminds me of when I was little, and my father and I used to go to the carnival in Divinity’s Reach.”
Does your father still live in Divinity’s Reach?
“No. He’s…He’s gone. My mother died when I was young, and my father…He was taken earlier this year.”
You must miss him.
“I miss the man who used to hold my hand at the carnival, yes. But, let’s not talk about that. It’s too nice a day!”
You work for Marjory Delaqua, don’t you?
’I work with her, yes. I joined Delaqua Investigations a few months ago. I needed some excitement to break up the boredom, you see?"

The story instance gave a lot of clarification on her background and her reasons for beginning to work with Marjory.

As for her not being apart of the group fighting against the puppet, she’s the one guarding path 5 isn’t she?

Erukk.1408:

The story about her father relates back to her Dragon Bash/Sky Pirate dialogue. Which was easily missed by a lot of people.

“This festival reminds me of when I was little, and my father and I used to go to the carnival in Divinity’s Reach.”
Does your father still live in Divinity’s Reach?
“No. He’s…He’s gone. My mother died when I was young, and my father…He was taken earlier this year.”
You must miss him.
“I miss the man who used to hold my hand at the carnival, yes. But, let’s not talk about that. It’s too nice a day!”
You work for Marjory Delaqua, don’t you?
’I work with her, yes. I joined Delaqua Investigations a few months ago. I needed some excitement to break up the boredom, you see?"

The story instance gave a lot of clarification on her background and her reasons for beginning to work with Marjory.

As for her not being apart of the group fighting against the puppet, she’s the one guarding path 5 isn’t she?

Oh, the reason was pretty obvious.
I was just saying that it felt out of place. That it would have worked better in other places, then here close to the end.
It feels like it was a blog-story at first and then dumped in here, just to please us, who desired more of it in game.
I am not critizing the content and how it releates to the plot, but simply where it was integrated.
It is a total 180 to what we got from both of them before.
The last time we had them raging against Scarlet and wanting to take her down as soon as possible.
Now we see them again and BAM, huge exposition about why they are together creating a total sad situation.
The thing about her fathers birthday felt just like a set up for that and could have been at any other time before.

Do not get me wrong. It was good. However i feel like this something we could have gotten beforehand.
Maybe it was left over and they had to put it somwhere (like with other dialog they produced aprox. 4 month ago). Maybe it really was the reaction to our demand to have more story ingame, instead of blog-posts.
I do not know.

It just felt out of place for me.

I am not sure if she was guarding path 5. I have to check that though, i think i talked to Majory and she said that Kas is taking a break there.

I’ll pile on and say that I really, really enjoyed that instance. And I’m not really into lore and most of the time I just skip through it.

But those kind of interactions and dialogue I really like. It had a bit of everything.

Seriousness – dialogue between Bram and Rox
Comedy – dialogue between Logan/Bram/Taimi
Romance/sad – dialogue between Jory/Kas

I also enjoy how it led to one another.

The VA also helped tremendously. I think people wouldn’t have enjoyed it if it were text

Keep it up

I really liked the instance too, with only one technical complaint (I mean, seriously? Well over a year since the personal story had issues with text-dumps speeding out of the instance, and it’s still a problem? Jeesh.), and I thought it was a really good way to get back into each individual character arc after the break to have them all interacting with each other. In the future I do hope that they get spread back out though- most of the complaints I’ve heard about Kasmeer have been either that it doesn’t fit with what’s going on around her, or that it just seems to big a coincidence that her father’s birthday happens to fall on this day with so much else going on, and I think if that scene had just been her and Marjory back at their bar it would’ve solved both. Despite that, though, the instance easily scores 9/10 in my books. I especially appreciated that Taimi’s comic relief was set perfectly to offset Braham’s renewed mopiness while still allowing said mopiness to have repercussions in his relationship with Rox, and also that Marjory was able to bring E back to the front of our thoughts in a way that didn’t feel forced.

i’ll add my voice to the praise. not only was the instance well executed, but the scarlet side of the story too. it left us with just enough answers to wonder what those hints hidden through her lair meant. i lurk on the lore forums most of the time, but this update made me feel like logging in to discuss things once again.

the only thing that turned me off a bit was scarlet’s reading of her journal. the journal itself is fine, i think the direction was off. it sounded over the top and out of character. not that scarlet isn’t usually over the top and menacing, more like what she was reading and how she was reading felt… contradictory.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though I would still love short stories in the style of the past – like Braham’s and Rox’s background stuff, or the last Halloween one. Things that happened before the game, and mentioned in the game (as the Braham and Rox ones were). Or things that the PC shouldn’t be present for, like Canach’s short story for Last Stand. Just so long as the events get mentioned in-game so you don’t have to go out of game to get the main points of the story.

I completely agree. I think I was initially put off because at the time it felt like there was more current story outside the game than in it. With these story instances (and by the way, I would LOVE another event like the cutscene with Marjory and Logan that you can view with Marjory’s journal) I feel that there’s a much nicer balance.

Oh, and one other thing…. complicated characters and emotions!

I’ve felt through the majority of my time playing the game that the villains are very flat. The Nightmare Court is evil because… they are. The Flame Legion is evil because… they are. The Inquest is evil… well, just because they are. And that was really frustrating. Scarlet feels like a great step in the right direction. I’d love to see more villains that I can really like and get behind, villains where I’ll feel genuinely upset if I find out I need to kill them… or maybe even more delighted that I get to kill them. You know, that special brand of vengeance because they HAD the option to do the right thing and went to commit an atrocity instead. I think the same can be said of heroes. In my mind the best heroes are the underdogs. I don’t know many who don’t love Malcolm Reynolds, Jim Rayner, and other characters whose lives, quite frankly, suck. But they keep going. They might be just ‘average folks’ but they have that special something that makes others want to risk their lives for them.

I started to get a taste of that in this story instance. Braham and Rox felt to me sorta grubby underdoggish in a nice earthy way and Kasmeer’s life hasn’t been all happy bunnies and rainbows. It seemed to me that Braham was getting frustrated over something that was worth feeling hurt over – his friend leaving him to join the cool kids club. I hope we get to see more of this in the future.

Yeah, Braham really is the underdog. He really can walk UNDER most norns. Braham the Short, I call him, or Tiny.

How do you access this instance?

Klofange.6854:

How do you access this instance?

Participate in either the marionette (or even the wurm I think) and it will update your personal story. Click on it and it will show you the location. When you get inside, talk to the herald, and once it’s finished explaining, the character can be interacted with.

Klofange.6854:

How do you access this instance?

just follow the living story UI. it works just like personal story now.

The instance was a nice change to how the LS handled stuff before.
It does feel like a story is progressing now.
Here’s hoping more of 2014 just adds more scenes like this to the tapestry.

So many good things about this instance, as others have said.

zwierz.9012:

Only Logan’s text chat about Rytlock’s warband I missed, he ran away. That was rude to run away in middle of conversation with my character!

He didn’t have such for me. I talked to him between his chat with Braham and his chat with Marjory, and then his chat after Marjory but saw no difference. I managed to screen his dialogue prior to talking to Marjory though.

He didn’t have the dialogue, or he didn’t run off?

Erukk.1408:

The story about her father relates back to her Dragon Bash/Sky Pirate dialogue. Which was easily missed by a lot of people.

The story instance gave a lot of clarification on her background and her reasons for beginning to work with Marjory.

As for her not being apart of the group fighting against the puppet, she’s the one guarding path 5 isn’t she?

Kasmeer is one of them people in one of the lanes. She’s in the top lane. Ask yourself, of all the people in Tyria, for an event this big, why are these the five people present? Do they make sense in this location? Should other characters be there as well/instead? Does it make sense to include these five people and exclude everyone else but the player characters?

“This festival reminds me of when I was little, and my father and I used to go to the carnival in Divinity’s Reach.”
Does your father still live in Divinity’s Reach?
“No. He’s…He’s gone. My mother died when I was young, and my father…He was taken earlier this year.”
You must miss him.
“I miss the man who used to hold my hand at the carnival, yes. But, let’s not talk about that. It’s too nice a day!”

When I initially read this, the line about missing the man who held her hand seemed to imply she missed part of her father, but not all of him. I thought it was something sinister, like he used to hold her hand but he later became an alcoholic and she didn’t miss him when he was an alcoholic. I still find her phrasing weird, why not simply say she misses her father instead of singling out the man he held her hand?

I believe the criticism of it being out of place isn’t that the scene existed at all, just that it has nothing to do with anything else going on. Everyone else is talking about the recent events (although I pointed out in another thread, the location is really weird – environments are characters to and this environment seemed like the wrong one for all of these scenes). Logan and Braham are dealing with the child who found her way onto the battlefield (Why Logan? Why in Lion’s Arch?). Rytlock and Rox are talking about a mission to take down Scarlet (Why is a busy charr like Rytlock visiting Lion’s Arch to receive a report? If he was too busy to see her in Black Citadel, why is he suddenly free to travel to see her?). Marjory and Kasmeer have a random moment of backstory because this day is incidentally her father’s birthday, it felt forced into the whole scene and it’s extraneous to the overall plot (it’s relevant to Kasmeer and Marjory but it’s not relevant to anything else).

I think it certainly makes me rethink the value of the short stories (I always liked them but I used to be of the opinion everything in them should ideally be in the game – but limited resources is always going to be an issue). Ellen Kiel didn’t give much (imo) in the game, but when her story on the website about her history with Magnus came out, it changed how I viewed the dynamic of that relationship. Would it have been better to see Kiel (or Magnus) tell the story of the events that brought them into each other’s lives? “What Scarlet Saw” is one of the most important pieces of lore in this whole story and it happened outside of the game (a lot of it has been “wedged” into the game in an exposition dump, but plenty of it is missing still). Kasmeer’s story is part of building her character and her relationship, but it’s not that important to the overall story. What if they dropped the Kasmeer scene, dropped one of the Tower of Nightmare “cinematics” and instead created a scene that the Pale Tree shows you, essentially going over what Scarlet saw? That would have strengthened the plot a lot more than fleshing out a character’s back story. I guess I’m of the opinion that high value plot moments should be getting these resources, character moments are a secondary concern when they don’t relate directly to the plot.

Maybe part of my problem isn’t that developing these characters is a bad thing, but that developing these characters isn’t mutually beneficial to developing the overall plot. I can see how Taimi relates to the plot, she is a genius asura following in Scarlet’s footsteps. If she can approach things from a fresh perspective, she might see something others don’t. Rox has a weak reason (why would Rytlock send essentially an intern to deal with one of Tyria’s biggest threats?) but the others seem like they are there to be there and not because they would believably be there (especially in place of all the other important characters).

He had the dialogue when he was on his way out of instance, Konig. Maybe I read it wrong, was trying to stay in range and read at the same time. As I said, some question about Rytlock’s warband, the answer I didn’t manage to read because L. left instance.

I didn’t think about chatting him up when he was on his way to talk with Majory, I was interrogating Tiny Braham then.

And yeah, english is my 7th language, can’t read that fast, puppy it!

it’s important to remember that the devs hide a lot of race-specific dialogue in these cutscenes. i know that if you’re asura or human, you get unique dialogue out of taimi (as an asura, you talk about a lot of asura stuff, as a human, she’s a bit skeptic of your intelligence :P)

Huh, I play a norn. Why would Logan (who my character saw three times tops) would talk with my norn about Rytlock’s (three times tops) warband?

All I gathered from hastily eyeing the text is that he doesn’t know much about them btw.

I can also be completely wrong, didn’t have time to read the text, as I said.

Lesson for the future? When talking to a non stationary instances with running NPC’s – take screenshots, read later. Wise polish man after damage is done.

zwierz.9012:

Huh, I play a norn. Why would Logan (who my character saw three times tops) would talk with my norn about Rytlock’s (three times tops) warband?

All I gathered from hastily eyeing the text is that he doesn’t know much about them btw.

I can also be completely wrong, didn’t have time to read the text, as I said.

Lesson for the future? When talking to a non stationary instances with running NPC’s – take screenshots, read later. Wise polish man after damage is done.

maybe it didn’t show as an extra option to you, but it was hidden from konig? or it could be because you’re norn. i mean, the other norn in the instance (braham) is complaining that he doesn’t get the big deal with warbands and why his friend is leaving him for one. logan is rytlock’s friend (even if they deny it now), and rytlock is in the warband.

I too enjoyed the instance, and I thought the acting was fine for the most part, so thanks to both the writers and the voice actors for that.

I liked Kasmeer’s melodramatic dialogue and could sympathize with her (although I can understand why some people don’t like it), and the ending with her and Marjory standing together holding hands while facing the sea was nice. I was also happy to see that Taimi was just the right amount of kitten instead of becoming an insufferable twerp like some kid characters in stories tend to be, and her interactions with various characters were interesting. Rox and Braham’s friendship is put to the test, and I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

It would’ve been nice to see at least some brief interaction between Rytlock and Logan, but I understand why that didn’t happen; hopefully we do see some of this in future Living Stories once the issue with LS and Personal Story “interfering” with one another are taken care of.

I look forward to seeing where the story goes next although the hints at Scarlet’s hideout are certainly intriguing.

Shiren.9532:

Ask yourself, of all the people in Tyria, for an event this big, why are these the five people present? Do they make sense in this location? Should other characters be there as well/instead? Does it make sense to include these five people and exclude everyone else but the player characters?

This is sort of a necessity for the story in a way; since these characters are our main NPCs, the story must keep including them to keep them relevant and so that once the time comes to face Scarlet, we’ll stand side by side with them and (hopefully) see why each one is present.

As for why only they seem to be involved, I’ve seen it as not cluttering up the fight too much with NPCs; it’s already a big enough event with so many players running around so no need to have more NPCs around. I imagine that in “lore” the battle will be seen as having included several people from Priory, Vigil and Order of Whispers along with our group of heroes and the main NPCs, so it won’t just be the “main NPC” show. Basically look at it as gameplay and story segregation.

Shiren.9532:

When I initially read this, the line about missing the man who held her hand seemed to imply she missed part of her father, but not all of him. I thought it was something sinister, like he used to hold her hand but he later became an alcoholic and she didn’t miss him when he was an alcoholic. I still find her phrasing weird, why not simply say she misses her father instead of singling out the man he held her hand?

Yeah, that was my initial impression as well: that her father was someone she had once admired but had later come to view differently for one reason or another. That’s why I found Kasmeer’s revelation about her father rather interesting in the story instance as it painted a different picture of her father than I had imagined.

Shiren.9532:

Rytlock and Rox are talking about a mission to take down Scarlet (Why is a busy charr like Rytlock visiting Lion’s Arch to receive a report? If he was too busy to see her in Black Citadel, why is he suddenly free to travel to see her?).

Rytlock has other reasons for coming to LA, so he wasn’t just there for Rox. When I visited Black Citadel during Wintersday and went to check out Rytlock’s office, he was nowhere to be found, and his aide informed me that Rytlock had left for LA on some business. Him meeting Rox was incidental as he had some other matters to attend to, and it just happened to be the same location, so he decided to hear her out since she was there. At least that’s the impression I got.

It’s going to be interesting to see in future patches if this little subplot will be developed and what other reason Rytlock will have for visiting LA. Could it be related to Evon’s worries about Scarlet targeting LA, perhaps a chat with the Captain’s Council? I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

Shiren.9532:

Marjory and Kasmeer have a random moment of backstory because this day is incidentally her father’s birthday, it felt forced into the whole scene and it’s extraneous to the overall plot (it’s relevant to Kasmeer and Marjory but it’s not relevant to anything else).

Assuming that the theory that something happens to Kasmeer at the end of the story turns out to be true (as a scene in the Tower of Nightmares hinted, although that could just be a red herring to lead us astray), then this scene would serve the purpose of deepening the bond between Kas and Jory…whether that means romantically or in deep friendship. I noticed that Marjory’s dialogue in Lornar’s Pass before the marionette event shows that she’s overprotective of Kasmeer at this point, so if anything were to happen to Kasmeer because of Scarlet or something else, it would hit her pretty hard, which could lead to her turning this Scarlet issue into a more personal matter.

So even though that nice little dialogue on the beach may not initially have anything to do with the overall plot, it does serve as character development for these two characters and will likely have repercussions in the story later on. This is what I would do as a writer if I wanted to foreshadow things to come as far as these characters are concerned.

BrunoBRS.5178:

maybe it didn’t show as an extra option to you, but it was hidden from konig? or it could be because you’re norn. i mean, the other norn in the instance (braham) is complaining that he doesn’t get the big deal with warbands and why his friend is leaving him for one. logan is rytlock’s friend (even if they deny it now), and rytlock is in the warband.

Maybe so, I can’t reply the instance to recreate the conversation and take screens.

It was definitely an improvement. ^^

Aaron Ansari.1604:

He didn’t have the dialogue, or he didn’t run off?

He didn’t have new dialogue after talking to Marjory that I saw. I saw nothing about Rytlock’s warband.

He did run off. Well, he walked off.

zwierz.9012:

And yeah, english is my 7th language, can’t read that fast, puppy it!

After Eir leaving the instance with Braham in Knut’s loft during the third Flame and Frost update, I have learned to go through and screenshot all the moving NPCs’ dialogue and read after. That’s what I did with Logan, having heard he runs off.

BrunoBRS.5178:

it’s important to remember that the devs hide a lot of race-specific dialogue in these cutscenes. i know that if you’re asura or human, you get unique dialogue out of taimi (as an asura, you talk about a lot of asura stuff, as a human, she’s a bit skeptic of your intelligence :P)

I hate it when Anet does that for one-time instances. Or can we go to them again with other characters unlike previous instances? I noticed my other characters has the whole “investigate the wurm/Marionette” steps again.

I was on my charr, if that matters. Didn’t seem to get any unique lines. None really seemed to reflect “hey, immacharr.”

Other characters have access to it? Looks like I’ll be going there again and checking it out, to see if I misread or what (and take screenshots)!

Okay, so I’ve replayed the instance and screenshotted the conversation about Rytlock’s warband, here is the transcript, I will also post screens (unless I fail, I don’t know how to do that):

Logan: “What can I do for you?”
Me: “Hear you know Rytlock Brimstone”
L: “Yeah I know him, why do you ask?”
M: “I’m curious what his warband is like”
L: “Truth is, I’ve never met his warband. They’ve been together for so long, they don’t adventure together anymore. Not like guilds do. Every one of them is an aofficer in the legions I believe”
M: “So they’re all politicians?”
L: “Soldiers. Military officers who take their duties quite seriously.”
M: “Thanks for the information!”

So yeah, that was the thing I was on about, and it’s accessible before Logan runs away as well as after.

I’ll be trying it with my charr after work tomorrow because Rytlock should know me then. (Him being my character’s Tribune and all that.)

I did in on a human and a norn. Both times talked with Rox beforehand. Anyway, it sheds some light on Rytlocks warband, not only current events, so even bigger kudos to ANet!

Kossage.9072:

This is sort of a necessity for the story in a way; since these characters are our main NPCs, the story must keep including them to keep them relevant and so that once the time comes to face Scarlet, we’ll stand side by side with them and (hopefully) see why each one is present.

Basically look at it as gameplay and story segregation.

I can view a lot of things as lore and gameplay segregation but not portraying Scarlet as a serious threat that has the attention of Tyria. I hold them to a higher standard with something like that. If Scarlet’s a threat and the story wants to treat her like one, the appropriate Tyrian forces need to be involved front and centre. If the Living Story cast are getting in the way of that, why have them at all? Not only are they not helping to tell a good story, they are making it worse by replacing the believable protagonists (the Living Story cast could have been believable protagonists but only Rox is given a marginal excuse to be as involved as she is and even that comes at the expense of a better story imo). I think Tyria and ArenaNet have more potential than that and this goes beyond reasonable suspension of disbelief.

It’s not good enough for characters to be present because they are the main characters. That’s the role of the player. The NPCs need to make sense because the burden of making this world believable and realistic falls on them.

Kossage.9072:

Rytlock has other reasons for coming to LA, so he wasn’t just there for Rox. When I visited Black Citadel during Wintersday and went to check out Rytlock’s office, he was nowhere to be found, and his aide informed me that Rytlock had left for LA on some business.

My understanding is that Rytlock has been in Lion’s Arch on business since launch, unless the story said otherwise. There are several instances (the game mechanic) in GW2 that haven’t changed since launch (or constantly change to a default state) I believe this is just another of those, not a set up for a new plot (they could use it that way, but until then I believe it’s just the default state of things). Even if they were both there at the same time, it’s a mighty coincidence Logan, Rox, Rytlock and Kasmeer’s father’s birthday all converged shortly after the marionette fight. I’ll side with reasonable suspension of disbelief here (resource limitations to do it any other way), but even that starts to pile up when used a lot.

Kossage.9072:

Assuming that the theory that something happens to Kasmeer at the end of the story turns out to be true, then this scene would serve the purpose of deepening the bond between Kas and Jory.

So even though that nice little dialogue on the beach may not initially have anything to do with the overall plot, it does serve as character development for these two characters and will likely have repercussions in the story later on.

I totally see this. It’s kind of a lame way to do it because of how they’ve set it up (but the only pay off worth the investment at this point imo), but I can see that being a viable explanation for their story. Here’s why I don’t like that if it’s true: Kasmeer was created to die. She has served no other purpose but to remove a veil any number of people could have removed and for no specific reason other than she’s the core cast that she was the one to do it when more suitable protagonists exist. I would call her the sacrificial lion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SacrificialLion) but given how weakly any of the cast relates to the plot, she would more likely be a sacrificial lamb (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SacrificialLamb). They could go the less expected route and play decoy protagonist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DecoyProtagonist) and kill Marjory instead, but I doubt they will kill either of them (racial imbalance, warning signs of possible death, following in the foot steps of Desinty’s Edge and the possibility of E joining the “five man team” are set-ups to make people think one of them will die, it seems too obvious).

If the dialogue pays off and she or Marjory dies (increasing the weight of the emotional impact), she/Marjory existed to die. If it doesn’t pay off and she lives, she exists largely outside of the plot (which is worse imo).

@ zwierz That all sounds perfectly constructed (like everything) to give Rox an out from joining Rytlock’s warband. She will get in, say she belongs in the field and reject them. Foreshadowing or too obvious?

Shiren.9532:

Kossage.9072:

Kossage.9072:

If the dialogue pays off and she or Marjory dies (increasing the weight of the emotional impact), she/Marjory existed to die. If it doesn’t pay off and she lives, she exists largely outside of the plot (which is worse imo).

Why would the only pay off be if one of them died? I noticed this pattern with a lot of stories, when certain characters become a pairing then one of them dies, because the writers obviously don’t know how to evolve them beyond that point, so death is their tool of development… I personally think it’s cheap and it sends a cliche, lame message.

Same with characters that were “supposed” evil yet it oh so turns out they’re not, they do something for greater good, then die, without any redemption or character development past that point. I could mention at least 10 characters I know that are like this but….it would be kinda unfair to spoil since we’re talking about quite popular stories here.

Rytlock dies in the final chapter of Scarlets story,his warband is revealed and Destinys Edge is broken handing the reigns to Destinys Edge 2.Also Rox doesn’t have to stop adventuring with Braham.Game of Thrones fitting end. /discuss

CharrGirl.7896:

Why would the only pay off be if one of them died? I noticed this pattern with a lot of stories, when certain characters become a pairing then one of them dies, because the writers obviously don’t know how to evolve them beyond that point, so death is their tool of development… I personally think it’s cheap and it sends a cliche, lame message.

There are many potential payoffs for this development. One is, as stated above, an eventual death for one (or both) of the Kasjory team, another is them becoming a couple (or good friends) for years to come, giving us a nice team for future Living stories. Yet another could be Kasmeer actually being evil and deliberately manipulating Jory’s emotions with the sad story to make her lower her guard for whatever nefarious reason before a later betrayal.

Also, I believe that any “cliche” can be used in a story as long as it’s used well; tropes aren’t inherently bad (as TVTropes and literary critics keep telling us xD) since so many stories have been told by now so one will inevitably run into “cliches” sooner or later no matter what one does. Using a well established trope doesn’t make a story “cheap”, IMHO. I’ve read many stories where the death of a pairing has had impact on the storyline in a good way, and not because “the writers obviously don’t know how to evolve them beyond that point, so death is their tool of development”. It can definitely be done well by a good author. Granted, bad writing can indeed make it come out in a bad way, but if it’s handled well not only character-wise but story-wise, it can give weight to the story in a good way just as further developing a friendship or romance further would do. It’s all in the pen of the storyteller, IMHO.

CharrGirl.7896:

Same with characters that were “supposed” evil yet it oh so turns out they’re not, they do something for greater good, then die, without any redemption or character development past that point. I could mention at least 10 characters I know that are like this but….it would be kinda unfair to spoil since we’re talking about quite popular stories here.

Again, if it’s done well, it shouldn’t matter; using tropes is inevitable, so delivery is what matters. If writers make the characters interesting and complex and write a good story around them, the antagonist, for instance, can be more sympathetic or villainous and come off as a well fleshed out character, whether s/he’s a well intentioned extremist or has been your ally who reveals his/her true colours and betrays you in a shocking twist.

I’ve read/seen/played just as many stories with sympathetic antagonists being redeemed before their death as I’ve read stories where they reject redemption or even live on with the guilt of what they’ve done. There have been bad stories but also gems in the bunch, so it all depends on how well the author manages to convey the idea to the audience.

The present Living Story has had its ups and downs, but for the most part I’ve found myself enjoying it. There are lots of interesting story possibilities out there and many plots one can follow, and I believe Anet will deliver us some nice stories as they iron out the kinks and learns what works and doesn’t work story-wise.

Graendall.4765:

Rytlock dies in the final chapter of Scarlets story,his warband is revealed and Destinys Edge is broken handing the reigns to Destinys Edge 2.Also Rox doesn’t have to stop adventuring with Braham.Game of Thrones fitting end. /discuss

This isn’t something the writing team can do at this point of time because it would conflict with Personal Story. Until they figure out how to separate PS from Living Story (and this can be done with a bit of tweaking, IMHO), they won’t be killing off any PS characters as that would only make people still leveling up their characters confused. And I certainly hope any of Destiny’s Edge won’t bite the bullet yet as there’s still so much character development that they could go through…unless Anet has a good enough reason to make any of such deaths impactful in a good way instead of just in a “shocking swerve” way.

I pretty much agree with everything you say, I just think that death of a character to further the plot or to serve as a character development for somebody else has been overused and it’s bad if it can be seen a mile away, no matter what the delivery. Let them all stay with us I say, Dwaynna knows that we lack good characters in this game :P Finally we have them delivered, and it finally feels like I’m following a good ongoing story here. I totally can’t wait to see all the new LS releases with the new team… dunno, guess I’m a lore junkie and I’d be pretty bummed if anyone new died at this point. sigh

I remember GoT had the Boromir Stark as show’s poster boy, and he died in first season.

But yeah, the plot can go into many ways, each of them will be called “great” by some, and “terrible” by others.

It doesn’t change the fact, that this update’s story is a huge improvement in both writing and delivery (which is the actual topic in this thread :P).

Shiren.9532:

I can view a lot of things as lore and gameplay segregation but not portraying Scarlet as a serious threat that has the attention of Tyria. I hold them to a higher standard with something like that. If Scarlet’s a threat and the story wants to treat her like one, the appropriate Tyrian forces need to be involved front and centre. If the Living Story cast are getting in the way of that, why have them at all?

I think the problem here goes back to Personal Story interfering with Living Story, an issue the devs are working on. If we didn’t have the events of PS to worry about, we’d most likely be seeing a lot more involvement from the Pact and Destiny’s Edge in this conflict as they’d already defeated Zhaitan and could pool some resources into hunting down Scarlet. But because some characters are still playing through PS, we can’t have too much involvement from the “iconics” or it would screw up the timeline. This is why the writers have brought us what they call the “biconics”, the new “main NPCs” to fill the role of recognizable faces in the story.

We’ve had some tidbits in the story pointing out that the events of LS do take place post-Zhaitan (Aetherblades stealing airships, Karka invasion etc.) but the devs have been hesitant to involve the PS crew too much unless it can be done in a way which won’t interfere with PS. Thus we won’t be seeing Rytlock etc. taking more direct action (except for Caithe in TA Aetherblade path) until this issue is resolved one way or another.

Shiren.9532:

Not only are they not helping to tell a good story, they are making it worse by replacing the believable protagonists (the Living Story cast could have been believable protagonists but only Rox is given a marginal excuse to be as involved as she is and even that comes at the expense of a better story imo). I think Tyria and ArenaNet have more potential than that and this goes beyond reasonable suspension of disbelief.

To be fair, they all have som excuses for being present. Braham tends to tag along wherever Rox goes (except for Tequatl event which I found curious), so it’s reasonable to assume he wanted to follow her to the fray. And he’s a norn, so he likes fighting and creating his own legend. The two of them likely also have an issue with Marjory telling them that “they let Scarlet go”, so they want to show those pesky humans that they can take her down this time. Taimi is there to gather data on Scarlet and hopefully meet with her. And Kas and Jory are around because they want to prevent Scarlet from causing any more damage after their experiences in the Nightmare Tower. On a broader scale these biconics are like our player characters: we appear to fight the marionette because we want to put an end to Scarlet’s schemes, so if a bunch of heroes of all races can do it, so can the “biconics” themselves. It’s our world that is being threatened, after all, and I can’t see these Living Story NPCs sitting on their butts while there’s danger out there.

Yes, the reasons for their involvement could be fleshed out more, but for what it’s worth, we do have some reasons (flimsy or not) why they’re around.

Shiren.9532:

It’s not good enough for characters to be present because they are the main characters. That’s the role of the player. The NPCs need to make sense because the burden of making this world believable and realistic falls on them.

I agree that our character should have more of a presence but unfortunately this issue has less to do with story and more with real life limitations development-wise. It costs a lot to voice dialogue for main character (2 genders x 5 races = 10 voice actors, and add in other languages for localization, and it quickly adds up) not to mention arranging all those VAs (who have busy schedules) to sit down and record in a booth before deadline hits. It’s a logistical and budgetary nightmare, which is why Anet hasn’t given us spoken dialogue for our characters in a while and why they had to make adjustments because of VA availability (I’ve heard that Kiel was originally meant to be a man but the devs couldn’t find a male VA to fit into the schedule, so they chose a woman as VA and tweaked Kiel’s gender accordingly). Until Anet can figure out how to make this work with their budget etc., we’ll have the biconics taking center stage and interacting with heroes and villains.

At least we have some written, race-specific dialogue to compensate for that. Hopefully we do get to hear our voices again at some point in the future; it would suck me more into the game to actually hear my character talk to, say, Scarlet and argue with her instead of the monologue Scarlet’s speeches often turn into.

my argument against killing off a character for emotional impact:

it’s been used to death (pun intended) on GW2 lore, it’s getting predictable. every single novel requires one token death and one protagonist death. the personal story has a body count that rivals private ryan.

it’s like ANet just reaches a point where they decide they don’t know what to do with a character, so they kill them. so no, i don’t want yet another cheap death for fake emotional struggle. try developing a character without killing them.

BrunoBRS.5178:

my argument against killing off a character for emotional impact:

it’s been used to death (pun intended) on GW2 lore, it’s getting predictable. every single novel requires one token death and one protagonist death. the personal story has a body count that rivals private ryan.

it’s like ANet just reaches a point where they decide they don’t know what to do with a character, so they kill them. so no, i don’t want yet another cheap death for fake emotional struggle. try developing a character without killing them.

That’s my sentiment on the whole “kill x off”-deal as well.

Also there’s been tons and tons of threads in the now archived personal-story forum about people getting frustrated at the last chunk of story in Orr because underdeveloped and throw-away characters died to the left and right with no emotional impact whatsoever. (Or in some cases, it required several playthroughs to even get an idea of why we should care and who just died which I’m certain not too many people bother with. ) So I really think GW2 has enough “woe is me my xxx died”.

Actually, my one complaint with this LS scene was that, again, we have Rytlock and Logan having no apparent familiarity with our characters even after completing the Zhaitan dungeon. It doesn’t really make sense, and I’m not sure why it wasn’t avoided. Didn’t GW2’s scripting system allow dialogue to differ according to things your character has done? I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it do that before.

Sirius.4510:

Actually, my one complaint with this LS scene was that, again, we have Rytlock and Logan having no apparent familiarity with our characters even after completing the Zhaitan dungeon. It doesn’t really make sense, and I’m not sure why it wasn’t avoided. Didn’t GW2’s scripting system allow dialogue to differ according to things your character has done? I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it do that before.

rytlock seems pretty familiar with my human character. he recognized me as a pact commander back in flame and frost, and while he didn’t point out random story feat X during this release, he treated me with a certain degree of familiarity.

can’t say the same about logan, because apparently “logan ran off” became an inside joke at ANet >__________________>

BrunoBRS.5178:

my argument against killing off a character for emotional impact:

it’s been used to death (pun intended) on GW2 lore, it’s getting predictable. every single novel requires one token death and one protagonist death. the personal story has a body count that rivals private ryan.

it’s like ANet just reaches a point where they decide they don’t know what to do with a character, so they kill them. so no, i don’t want yet another cheap death for fake emotional struggle. try developing a character without killing them.

Killing a character isn’t a problem. It’s when you create a character simply to kill them, that’s a problem. This is Tyria, a world of death and destruction. How can you honestly portray a world like that without killing people? It’s stupid to have people die but none of them named characters, sometimes a main character is going to die.

They can’t accurately portray a world at war if they aren’t going to kill people. Not for the sake of killing people, but because that’s what happens at war. People die.

Do people watch Game of Thrones or the Walking Dead and complain that “underdeveloped and throwaway characters” keep getting killed? Part of what makes those worlds compelling is the fact that they do kill people – but their deaths are integral to the plot. They make sense in the world and they are believable conclusions to a character’s story. In GW2 at the end of the Personal Story, most of the deaths felt like they were written just so the story had someone to kill. Sacrificial Lambs.

Most of that isn’t an issue with Kasmeer or Marjory. People know who both of them are and plenty of people are attached to both of them as characters. They are not unknowns, they would not be cheap and meaningless deaths, if either of them died it would resonate with many people in the audience. Every time the main cast is in danger, the sense of danger becomes less real for the players if they don’t think anyone can die. The story loses a lot of its power (and the villains look less threatening). In a story like this, it’s necessary to kill characters.

Shiren.9532:

BrunoBRS.5178:

my argument against killing off a character for emotional impact:

it’s been used to death (pun intended) on GW2 lore, it’s getting predictable. every single novel requires one token death and one protagonist death. the personal story has a body count that rivals private ryan.

it’s like ANet just reaches a point where they decide they don’t know what to do with a character, so they kill them. so no, i don’t want yet another cheap death for fake emotional struggle. try developing a character without killing them.

Killing a character isn’t a problem. It’s when you create a character simply to kill them, that’s a problem. This is Tyria, a world of death and destruction. How can you honestly portray a world like that without killing people? It’s stupid to have people die but none of them named characters, sometimes a main character is going to die.

They can’t accurately portray a world at war if they aren’t going to kill people. Not for the sake of killing people, but because that’s what happens at war. People die.

Do people watch Game of Thrones or the Walking Dead and complain that “underdeveloped and throwaway characters” keep getting killed? Part of what makes those worlds compelling is the fact that they do kill people – but their deaths are integral to the plot. They make sense in the world and they are believable conclusions to a character’s story. In GW2 at the end of the Personal Story, most of the deaths felt like they were written just so the story had someone to kill. Sacrificial Lambs.

Most of that isn’t an issue with Kasmeer or Marjory. People know who both of them are and plenty of people are attached to both of them as characters. They are not unknowns, they would not be cheap and meaningless deaths, if either of them died it would resonate with many people in the audience. Every time the main cast is in danger, the sense of danger becomes less real for the players if they don’t think anyone can die. The story loses a lot of its power (and the villains look less threatening). In a story like this, it’s necessary to kill characters.

they kill main characters. all the freaking time. sure, those deaths aren’t as vivid in-game, but each of the novels (which counts as GW2 canon) is full of protagonist deaths.

the point is, it’s not because it’s a world at war that everyone has to die. it becomes ridiculous and unimportant. you don’t get a sense of danger and loss because you’re killing off everyone, you get a sense of “why should i care”.

and game of thrones does NOT go around murdering half the cast. when death happens, it’s a plot critical event that starts a chain that goes through entire books (or seasons). the first book had a kill count of exactly two important characters, at the very, very end, and with repercussions that lasted the entire freaking series. do you really believe that killing off anyone in the current living story party would have any similar impact?

killing kasmeer would make marjory angsty at best, that’s it. there’s no repercussion from it, no sense of danger (because the player character is still an imortal demigod) or loss (we weren’t that close to her, and we’d get our revenge within 2 months). killing her would be a cheap attempt at pulling emotional strings, and it would fall flat.

TL;DR: killing a character is such an obvious, cheap and overused attempt at creating tension (especially in the GW2 canon) that not killing anyone would actually be more surprising. they’ve killed enough characters. it was impactful the first couple times, by the 4th or 5th i was just expecting everyone introduced to die at some point.

Shiren.9532:

Do people watch Game of Thrones or the Walking Dead and complain that “underdeveloped and throwaway characters” keep getting killed? Part of what makes those worlds compelling is the fact that they do kill people – but their deaths are integral to the plot. They make sense in the world and they are believable conclusions to a character’s story. In GW2 at the end of the Personal Story, most of the deaths felt like they were written just so the story had someone to kill. Sacrificial Lambs.

Are you going to throw George R.R. “I kill your favorites because I can” Martin as a sign of deaths which have meaning? There aren’t deaths with meaning there, or bad things happening for a reason other than “it amused Joffery”. Ned Stark died because King Joffery needed to look like the Big Man, and the meaning sprung from what followed rather than what led to the act itself. Which is different than leading up to a death and forgetting about it. (I’m looking at you Lost and no you don’t get a pass for Libby.)

The world of Westeros is compelling because Mr. Martin takes the time to craft it with a sense of reality, a sense of having a foundation on which that world turns. Rather than “it exists to pull the plot threads I need pulled”. Similarly Middle-Earth, Barrayar, the world of the Elder Scrolls . . . (though I get less and less sure about that one as I learn more about it).

If Marjory or Kasmeer is going to die, I’m not interested so much in why as I am in what comes after. Do we get another Rurik, where he died in a sacrifice and people seem barely affected by it after? Or ‘worse’ the various sacrifices which took place in Raisu Palace on the way to stop Shiro, where it turns out none of them were really sacrificed at all?