Guild Wars 2

Hello peps.

I’m playing in GW2 since premiere, but never played in first game so my aknowledge about lore is just poor. I trying to learn more, and I’m very curious about one thing. As we all know, necromancers are masters of death magic and biological manipulation, and they priority, like others, is fight with ED corruption. But Zhaitan, being one of ED, is master of death magic too and leads his undead army toward others, even necromancers. In that case, why necromancers fight with Zhaitan, when they’re both masters of death magic, and propably have similar beliefs about how world should work? It’s because necromancers uses their powers only for personal goals and they don’t want to serve any one, they want to use dark powers for good, or they secretly want to be the only masters of death in Tyria? I want to know your opinions about that.

BTW. I always wonder why Tyrian races allow practise necromancy. It’s kind of weird IMO.

First of all, it’s presumptuous to assume that all necromancers hold a particular moral view or kind of ambition. As an occasional role-player, I’ve had great fun coming up with different kinds of necromancer characters who justify what they do in different ways, and have different ethics about it. For example, a friend of mine has a necro character from GW1 who would never raise a minion from a single corpse, always parts of different corpses, so that it wasn’t like a resurrection (which would be inconsiderate the the deceased’s relatives)!

Necromancy was toned down for GW2 to make it less creepy, more acceptable. For example GW2 necros can create minions from anywhere, without needing a fresh corpse to work with like GW1 necros did. It basically helps necromancer PR lol.

But anyway, if you think about it there are plenty of ways it can be different – for instance necromancers raise minions temporarily, while Zhaitan creates permanent undead, which seems more of a mockery of life. Zhaitan corrupts, while necromancy is usually more under control. A lot of necro magic, like blood magic, actually have to do with manipulating life force and living things. Zhaitan’s undead are still bad news for necros of all the player races. I can’t think of any necromancer who would want to see all the world as the walking dead – which is really Zhaitan’s goal.

Thanks for quick answer, much appreciated. So necromancers and Zhaitan’s death magic works diffrent, as you said. Zhaitan’s army is blind force of death, when necromancers use it when is needed. Now I understand. But tell me, why necromancy is tolerate and even highly respected in Tyria? I even heard dialogue between some kid and his father near to Divnity’s Reach cementery. Father of that kid wanted his son to became necromancer, but kid seems not. Later his father was angry at him, and then I thought “Father want his son to became necromancer? So weird”.

zhaitan is in to kill everyone, necromancer or not. they don’t share any perspectives in life.

necromancy is just a school of magic, like the elements, or mesmer magic. it doesn’t require a specific view of life, and certainly doesn’t make you agree with a giant dragon that’s killing thousands just because the dragon is a zombie.

as for acceptance, it’s more tolerated than accepted. reanimating a corpse is shunned upon, which is why necros create their minions of scraps of dead matter on the ground.

Necromancy is just a form of magic in Tyria. Its not a set ‘evil’ in the same way as death isnt in itself evil. Necromancers take many forms, from those seeking power through it to those who care for the dead, souls or body. Most if not all of Grenth’s priests would be necromancers.

Id say it goes like this:

Humans may be creeped out by necromancy but accept it, to a great part because of the worship of Grenth. Grenth is a death god and one who judges and looks after the souls of the dead. Death is a part of life and Grenth is the god of balance.

To the Asura, its just another part of the Eternal Alchemy. In their view everything has a place including necromancy. To ignore it would be foolish and short sighted.

To the Sylvari, its linked to death and that interest alot of sylvari. Even death is a pretty new concept to their race and they seek to understand it and its place in their lives. Kalleen from Ghosts of Ascalon was a good example of a syvari necromancer.

To the norn, necromancy seems to be linked to Raven. Norn are into spirits and necromancy deals with the spirits of the dead. It works in pretty well with their shamanism.

To the charr, all magic is suspect. Necromancy doenst hold any particularly more questionable nature to other magics. Infact I suspect they would dislike mesmer’s more since at least necromancy is more honest. However like mesmers, necromancers are valuable to the Legions and the charr are very pragmatic. To ignore or be ignorant of a power just because you dont like it much would be foolish.

Thats my take on it anyway.

It always seemed to me that the professions in Guild Wars were skills that a person could learn as a livelihood, although I’m sure this isn’t the standard. Back in pre-searing, you’d have necromancers that would tend to the catacombs, and affairs of the deceased, while up in the mountains, there was Aziure, working on spell research for an outside organization (What is The Order mentioned by some of the ascalonian spellcasters, anyway?).

So it’s always been my thinking that the people of tyria tolerate necromancy because it can be used in practical manners. Not to say that there are not those who misuse it; Verata, Oberan the Reviled, and more recently, Necromancer Rissa from the charr’s order introduction arc.

My warrior practices Necromancy.
He controls the life force of other creatures…mostly he extracts the life force from the not-dead-yet bodies through his cold, hard, steel..err…scepter—yeah, a very sharp, double edged scepter.

i personally go with the line of thinking that necromancers in GW2 are sort of like puppet masters. The minions don’t actually have a soul tied to them, but the bodies are constructs from the undead and are animated in a similar manner to other fantasy worlds where there are statues that are brought to ‘life’ through being animated with magic.

Atleast that’s my personal opinion on the matter. Like mentioned by other posters, being a necromancer doesnt automatically make you evil. It may not even have corrupting influences on the characters, considering how Grenth is A-okay with undead existing.

Yeah, there is only 1 real instance in GW1 of necromancy creating minions with souls attached, and that was Palawa Joko’s minions. And well, a Lich has a bit more strength and no how when it comes to necromancy than the living.

Adding to that, it’s porbably worth noting the the only autonomous undead – those able to go about doing stuff without direct command from a controller – have been seen as bad things, as far as I remember (I’m thinking Zhaitan’s minions, Orrian undead from GW1, Palawa Joko’s armies…). The undead created by professional necromancers have tended to be puppet-like as castlemanic says, with a caster controlling them. I’d guess that if the necromancer stopped maintaining their minions, they’d just sort of fall apart and lose their semblance of life.

With roleplay again (which is thus obviously speculation on our part) we had a really interesting conversation between a necromancer and a ritualist. The ritualist thought necromancy was kind of stupid because it played with dead flesh, which has no power, while she used spirits, which were the animating influence and thus more powerful. The necromancer, on the other hand, was a little uncomfortable with the idea of ripping spirits from the Mists to use for magic; spirits go to Grenth in the natural order of things. To him, using the flesh was acceptable because it didn’t interfere with this order, just made use of the leftovers.

I have to ask curuniel, what server do you play on? is it the unofficial roleplaying server?

No actually, I’m on Henge of Denravi, although I do want to guest over to Tarnished Coast once that’s available – I’ve never played on an RP server in an MMO before and I’d like to see what it’s like! I roleplay with some real-life friends, in down time, usually after we’ve been playing for the evening.

Curuniel.4830:

No actually, I’m on Henge of Denravi, although I do want to guest over to Tarnished Coast once that’s available – I’ve never played on an RP server in an MMO before and I’d like to see what it’s like! I roleplay with some real-life friends, in down time, usually after we’ve been playing for the evening.

Guesting isnt available yet? O.o, i thought it was. And ill definitely be joining you in Tarnished Coast once guesting is up.

The only thing they have in common is control over death but necromancers worship death and except it as just as important if not more then life. Zhaitan is the opposite he can’t except the fact that every thing must die and that he to can die, the dragon probably thinks its doing life a favor by giving everyone that has died a second chance at the expense of freedom.

^ did you just pull this out of nowhere? i’m pretty sure everything you’ve said is made up :/

Did not Zhaitan desires immortality there are a few parts of the personal story that show this including the one where a reaper of Grenth demands you kill a risen priest that condemns Grenth because Zhaitan promises eternal life to him. Necromancy among the playable races is more along the lines of respecting the fact that life ends and to show they don’t fear their mortality.

A common misconception about necromancers, is that we are all dark and evil, because we deal with death. While that certainly holds true for me, I know many colleague necromancers are quite different.

Many commoners in Tyria find peace by talking to priests of Grenth after a loved one has just passed away. In some cases a necromancer can help the living communicate with the dead, to resolve issues or answer unanswered questions. Or a necromancer can help a restless spirit find rest. Because it is the mercy of Grenth that guides the spirits of deceased loved ones to the other side. Death isn’t always a frightening and evil affair. It is a natural part of the endless cycle of life. And necromancers are there to not only study this subject thoroughly, but also to help other people understand this cycle.

And as far as motives go, necromancers and their motives vary from absolute evil (grin) to absolute good (Bleh). The act of raising a minion isn’t evil, because what a necromancer does is simply gather old bones and other remains, to form a temporary servant. It is not a matter of enslaving a spirit against its will, but simply using old unused remains as a walking mindless servant. Many necromancers seek knowledge and power, but the way in which they search for it is what sets them apart, and defines their morals.

But what Zhaitan does is quite different. He turns both the living and the dead into his eternal servants, to spread his evil will. That makes him an enemy of every living being on Tyria, be they good or evil, necromancer or otherwise. Zhaitan corrupts, defiles and enslaves creatures against their will. Zhaitan does not respect Grenth’s laws, and can be considered an enemy of all the human gods. Where necromancers bring things to rest, so they may provide the seed and soil for new life, Zhaitan only destroys, building nothing and destroying everything.

Necromancers on the other hand respect the balance of life and death. Anything they raise from the dead, they also return back to their dead state eventually. Their ally is Grenth, and Grenth is an ally to all beings on Tyria, as are all the human gods. The difference here is respecting the natural order of things, and not abusing power.

This is why necromancers oppose Zhaitan. Perhaps they have even more reason to oppose him than anyone else.

Mike Winters.6871

Did not Zhaitan desires immortality there are a few parts of the personal story that show this including the one where a reaper of Grenth demands you kill a risen priest that condemns Grenth because Zhaitan promises eternal life to him. Necromancy among the playable races is more along the lines of respecting the fact that life ends and to show they don’t fear their mortality.

zhaitan doesn’t desire immortality. it doesn’t desire anything. zhaitan is an elder dragon, a being of pure destruction. a giant undead dragon that can raise a nation from the bottom of the ocean can probably fool a human with promises of immortality, doesn’t mean the dragon is actively searching of means of achieving it. the only thing zhaitan cares (cared) about is destruction, and expanding his influence, and consuming.

as for necromancers, they are just adepts of necromancy in the same way elementalists are adepts of elemental magic. there is no philosophy behind a profession, they work just like job skills would in real life. sure, many human necros may follow Grenth, which is the god of balance, but that’s limited to humans (other races don’t worship, or even believe in, the human gods), and even then it’s limited to the humans that still believe in the six gods, and EVEN THEN, that’s limited to the human necromancers who believe in the six gods and worship Grenth specifically.

there was a priest in guild wars factions, he mentioned how some people think each profession should follow a specific god, and that it is incorrect. a necromancer can be an adept of Dwayna or Melandru just as well as an adept of Grenth.

And yes, that is also an important point. Not every necromancer is human, and thus not every necromancer follows Grenth. And Grenth isn’t evil, certainly not just because he’s kind of scary. He’s neutral, or at least as neutral as the human gods can be. Many necromancers are attracted to the dark arts, but that doesn’t mean that they are attracted to evil acts.

I guess technically a necromancer could be a follower of Lyssa, but those tend to be mocked by everyone, and never live very long. A follower of Dwayna, I guess is possible, since life and death go hand in hand.

And being one with the cycle of life and death can bring an appreciation for nature, and thus make one a devoted of Melandru. While being urged to fight for the balance that a necromancer seeks can bring a necromancer in tune with the spirit of Balthazar.

Indeed, NPCs in GW1 have often spoken about bodies returning to the earth and thus to Melandru, so she is also connected to death (makes sense for a nature goddess). As for Lyssa, Mad Queen, I would say that a necromancer of Lyssa would have a deep understanding of the veil between worlds, walk the fragile boundaries between life and death, and know how to create a semblence of life where no life truly was. All good illusion stuff!

@Mike Winters: to know the mind of and Elder Dragon is a weighty and unlikely thing. I doubt any of the others are any easier to connect with or understand than Kralkatorrik, “the mind in the hurricane.” I haven’t finished the personal story so maybe someone else can correct me, but as far as I know, all we know of Zhaitan’s mind is “I hunger.” All the Elder Dragons are more primal than your average lich lord or whatever; they don’t need complex motives, they just are and they follow their natures (usually, to destroy).

Curuniel.4830:

@Mike Winters: to know the mind of and Elder Dragon is a weighty and unlikely thing. I doubt any of the others are any easier to connect with or understand than Kralkatorrik, “the mind in the hurricane.” I haven’t finished the personal story so maybe someone else can correct me, but as far as I know, all we know of Zhaitan’s mind is “I hunger.” All the Elder Dragons are more primal than your average lich lord or whatever; they don’t need complex motives, they just are and they follow their natures (usually, to destroy).

no, that’s pretty spot on. you have zhaitan’s followers, that make sure the corruption is spread and whatnot, but zhaitan is just sheer destruction and havok.

Curuniel.4830:

all we know of Zhaitan’s mind is “I hunger.”

“Hi, I’d like to order an Asuran pie with a side of charr legs and human blood.”

^ you forgot his sylvari salad.

Necromancers seem to also summon spirits from the realm of death, not necessarily always living beings that died.

The force of death is not always associated with ‘Evil’. In many real world cultures, Death has been seen as a natural part of the cycle of life. It is possible that in Tyria Death is viewed as a perfectly natural force, and those associated with it would not be seen as any different than other magic users.

While Death may not necessarily be evil, Zhaitan is. He wants the destruction of all life. It is no different than Primordus, who uses the elemental power of Fire like Elementalist do, but is definitely not associated with the Elementalists of Tyria.

bluejay.6739:

Necromancers seem to also summon spirits from the realm of death, not necessarily always living beings that died.

The force of death is not always associated with ‘Evil’. In many real world cultures, Death has been seen as a natural part of the cycle of life. It is possible that in Tyria Death is viewed as a perfectly natural force, and those associated with it would not be seen as any different than other magic users.

While Death may not necessarily be evil, Zhaitan is. He wants the destruction of all life. It is no different than Primordus, who uses the elemental power of Fire like Elementalist do, but is definitely not associated with the Elementalists of Tyria.

considering you can visit the mists while alive, i think tyrians take death pretty nicely.