You don’t win friends with salad! Sorry I just got caught up in the rhythm.
Dhuum, Zhaitan and Necromancy
which is some what hypocritical considering he used undead himself in his armies later on
There is some suspicion that Dhuum’s undead (which are in the underworld) are actually different from other undead (which are on tyria).
Now my question is, would Dhuum have been be able to deny Zhaitan his Risen minions if he was still the god in charge of the Underworld instead of Grenth?
I would say no, based on this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Silence_%28story%29
If so, there are however 2 other questions coming up:
1. Why doesn’t Grenth do anything against the Risen? Is it because he like the other gods decided to not intervene in Tyria anymore or is there more behind it?
2. When Dhuum “forbid” the undead, there were actually Risen on Tyria, like the Giganticus Lupicus, probably in some kind of hibernation like the Great Destroyer and the Drakkar Beast were. Why didn’t he hunt them down? There they hidden from him?
1. There are two theories. One is that the gods do not intervene in Tyria anymore, either because they abandoned it or because they want to give the races the chance to grow up without the hand of a parent. The other is that the gods fear the dragons.
2. You seem to imply that the gods and the dragons were contemporaries during the last rise of the dragons. All evidence points towards the gods arriving after the dragons already went to sleep. I read what you wrote wrong.
Can Zhaitan’s magic be considered Necromancy?
No, it is dragon corruption. It is only superficially similar. It has more in common with branding than with necromancy.
That is if they are even powerful enough to overrule an Elder Dragon, but why wouldn’t they be, the Forgotten obviously could break the bond between ED and minion.
Maybe they could break the bonds between the ED and individual minions. However, again, for whatever reason, the gods do not intervene.
The other question is, did the gods even know of the EDs existence. They seemed to be drawn to Arah, but just because it was a place of great magic, or did they know about Zhaitan.
There is alot of discussion about that. To me it seems like the gods did not know of the ED’s existence. There is some suspicion that Abaddon knew about the dragons however and that this knowledge was the origin of the conflict between him and the other gods, as you said.
Abaddon was the god of secrets, so if he knew about the EDs he might not have shared that knowledge with the other gods… or did he share it with Dhuum, who enacted his ban on the undead and resurrections to prevent Zhaitan from stocking up his armies when he awakens? After all a body you just bury or cremate probably decomposes faster than someone that is resurrected over and over again. But hey that’s just a theory…. a lore theory. So share your thoughts.
Abaddon and Dhuum did have an alliance so it’s possible I guess. Nice reference to the game theorists btw.
(edited by Diovid.9506)
The other question is, did the gods even know of the EDs existence. They seemed to be drawn to Arah, but just because it was a place of great magic, or did they know about Zhaitan.
There is alot of discussion about that. To me it seems like the gods did not know of the ED’s existence. There is some suspicion that Abaddon knew about the dragons however and that this knowledge was the origin of the conflict between him and the other gods, as you said.
I’d disagree there. Both the non-human races that we saw worship them were survivors of the last rise, the premise of Arah explorable is that the Gods stockpiled and studied relics from the last dragon rise, and with S2 we’ve learned that the most comprehensive source the Priory has on the dragons is the Scroll/Tome of the Five True Gods. Whether they knew they were actually on top of one is another matter, and I believe a dev statement before launch said they didn’t know they tapped into Zhaitan while fooling around with the Bloodstone, but we do know they knew the dragons existed.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
The other question is, did the gods even know of the EDs existence. They seemed to be drawn to Arah, but just because it was a place of great magic, or did they know about Zhaitan.
There is alot of discussion about that. To me it seems like the gods did not know of the ED’s existence. There is some suspicion that Abaddon knew about the dragons however and that this knowledge was the origin of the conflict between him and the other gods, as you said.
I’d disagree there. Both the non-human races that we saw worship them were survivors of the last rise, the premise of Arah explorable is that the Gods stockpiled and studied relics from the last dragon rise, and with S2 we’ve learned that the most comprehensive source the Priory has on the dragons is the Scroll/Tome of the Five True Gods. Whether they knew they were actually on top of one is another matter, and I believe a dev statement before launch said they didn’t know they tapped into Zhaitan while fooling around with the Bloodstone, but we do know they knew the dragons existed.
I should’ve been more precise in my response. It is questionable whether the gods knew if the dragons were still around and whether the gods knew if the dragons would wake up again (and when) and whether the gods knew just how powerful the dragons are.
Zhaitan as we all know uses the Risen a.k.a. a form of undead as his minions.
This here is what I think you got wrong.
Risen are definitely not traditional undead. Aside from all the common dragon minion traits like hive minds and mixed levels of intelligence dependent upon magic forced into the minion as well as how all dragon minions – risen included – are effectively brainwashed, you have the very clear difference between risen and undead from a physical sense.
That is to say: state of decay.
Risen will appear roughly the same no matter what. Be they fresh risen killed 10 seconds ago, or be they ancient princes who’s corpses were ransacked from the catacombs of Orr, they all have the same appearance: flesh mostly there, gray skin, rotted.
Normal undead, however, have a very varied state of decay. They can appear as skeletons, held together by ethereal bindings like Killeen’s in GoA, or they can be looking like they’re still alive – again, like Killeen’s undead in GoA (the Ebon Vanguard, sans her broken neck looked normal). Their minds vary – from nigh brainless (no pun intended) to intelligent, but the cause of this remains unknown – even grunts have shown heavy intelligence amongst some necromancers’ creation. But they certainly don’t exhibit hive mind of any form.
While the risen are called undead, this is less because they’re the same as undead, and more that they’re rotten in appearance and mostly formed from corpses. But, it should be noted, not all risen come from corpses; and not only risen come from corpses.
Take this clear difference between undead and risen, and you get your answer, I believe.
Can Zhaitan’s magic be considered Necromancy?
I would argue no.
Dragon energy is clearly separated from dark, light, and chaos energy just like divine is. Necromancy appears to derive from dark energy.
The other question is, did the gods even know of the EDs existence.
Scroll of the Five True Gods indicates they did. But according to Randall, the gods didn’t know of Zhaitan’s specific location or that Zhaitan was the source of the magic they pulled from when strengthening the Bloodstone(s).
Abaddon was the god of secrets,
Prior to his fall, Abaddon was called the god of wisdom.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
You all raise some good points. Thank you for your input. Though I wondered, would Dhuum consider the Risen as creatures that try to escape death? They are very different from regular undead, but in a way they are undead, as they are usually created from corpses. If I think about it, the same question applies to other dragon minions, like the Icebrood that are completely frozen to the bone or the Mordrem that are skeletons with vines around them. They are technically cheating death as much as a corpse commanded by a necromancer is, or don’t they?
You don’t win friends with salad! Sorry I just got caught up in the rhythm.
Hard to say, but he’d also have to consider all dragon minions as such, I would think, since all are potentially ‘escaping death’ – there are cases of icebrood being made from corpses too, for example, and as you said icebrood often end up as bones encased in ice (Branded concept art shows similar – the only part of the original bodies remaining being grayed, torn skin and bones).
Risen are just more so (both in the fact that most risen are made from corpses, and their constant preaches of immortality through undeath).
But then you have to ask: is Dhuum willing to throw down with Zhaitan and the other Elder Dragons?
Given his unjust and seemingly hypocritical nature, I think he wouldn’t unless he has a fairly sure chance of winning.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I think it depends on why Dhuum stood against undeath. There’s got to be more to it than that he just objected to stray bodies waltzing around. On the very, very little we’ve been given to go on, I’d conjecture it has something to do with souls, and ensuring they came to and stayed within the afterlife. We know Zhaitan was inconsistent with trapping those, and it’s possible the other dragons never bother. So, personally, I’d say Dhuum’d only be opposed to them in specific cases- at least on those grounds.
As to his hypocrisy on account of the skeletons, I’d be hesitant to apply that to his time as a god. He’d been imprisoned for over a thousand years at that point, and who knows how that might’ve changed his mind. It’s a bit like making assumptions about pre-magic Abaddon based on his behavior during Nightfall.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)