Guild Wars 2

So here’s a quick question to mull over… Why hasn’t Dhuum taken over during our absense from UW between GW1 and GW2?

I know game-wise why he hasn’t, if he WERE in charge, undead wouldn’t exist, and resurrection wouldn’t be possible.

But lore-wise… he’s the strongest of the gods, and he was only re-sealed, because he was too powerful to be destroyed. Additionally, if memory serves, he had to be constantly in-check or he’d merely break free again.

Two things to keep in mind… Firstly, Abaddon was AT LEAST as strong as the “tyrian gods” combined.

Secondly, Abaddon was able to be destroyed, allowing kormir to take his place. If HE could be destroyed, but dhuum was too powerful to be destroyed… Dhuum must be stronger than all the existing gods combined.

Now before someone says “But kormir is allied with them…” Please, kormir has no power whatsoever. She couldn’t even clear out abaddon’s remaining minions, all she could do was open the door to let “us” in.

Oh, and we know Grenth is still in charge, there’s a personal storyline near the end where you meet an avatar of grenth. Grenth is in charge, but greatly weakened over time due to the whole zhaitan thing. The avatar of grenth couldn’t even destroy a little veteran mob by himself, nor could he help us destroy him. He literally said he was too weak to do the task himself. (Himself, being the avatar of grenth)

So I ask you… why hasn’t Dhuum taken over? The way I see it, Dhuum should have offed grenth, Menzies would follow suit and take over the realm of war… and so forth.

Umm…because he’s too busy"Dhuuming" bots and griefers? He must be exhausted with so many more players in GW2. =D

Obsidian.1328:

Umm…because he’s too busy"Dhuuming" bots and griefers? He must be exhausted with so many more players in GW2. =D

I’d say this is true, if that animation persisted in gw2. It doesn’t, so lies!

Lol…well, it would be cool to watch bots get vaporized by him now. Especially with the stellar graphics.

So much wrong here. Abaddon wasn’t stronger than all the other gods, which is obvious because the other gods threw him down. It was said that Abaddon was stronger than any 2 gods put together, but not all 5 combined. Furthermore nothing says that Dhuum cannot be killed, merely that Grenth couldn’t kill him. Whether this meant that Grenth lacked the strength to kill him or that Grenth morally could not choose to kill him is left to speculation.

1. He’s not the strongest of the gods – hell, when he was full-powered he got overthrown by a half-god and 7 mortals. Abaddon, when full-powered, as capable of beating two other gods and had at least 9 mortals beat him while chained down (and while chained down, he started twisting the world into a nightmarish hell). Dhuum isn’t better than Abaddon – he’s just tougher to kill (this does not mean he’s tougher to beat – see Joko, who’s impossible to kill but can get his kitten wooped by a spirit called Ewan Thorn). And that is likely just because he’s the former god of death (or, alternatively, Grenth wanted to make Dhuum suffer in eternal isolation rather give him a quick merciful death).
2. Who said he isn’t causing havoc in the Underworld? Godslost Swamp and Reaper’s Gate are both areas tied to the Underworld, and it’s got nothing but creatures of darkness spewing forth. Plus, and this holds next to no backing tbh, I think the lore behind the Mist Wars (that there’s “evil” killing mercilessly trying to invade Tyria) may be about Menzies and Dhuum – or just simply alternate dimensions which would be sadder.
3. Nothing says that Grenth is weaker – only his avatar.

And by that Konig means that his avatar is weak, not that the avatar says Grenth is weak. Sorry, I just misread your last statement and I didn’t want anyone else to read the same. But the Avatars are not the gods themselves, at least I never seemed to get that feeling from the game. In fact I think the avatar we talk to was supposed to be one of the reapers, which are being that helped Grenth take down Dhuum. The Avatar could be weak for a number of reasons. The spell used limited his power, the distance between where the gods are and Tyria was a tiring one on the avatar, etc, etc…

No, the avatars are not the gods. Grenth has only seven (klnown) avatars – the Seven Reapers who were the mortals that helped him overthrow Dhuum and elevated to immortality as a reward (and yes, the one we talk to is one of those Reapers, dubbed “The Seventh Reaper” in fact).

Do we ever get an explanation as to which of the reapers this was? I remember playing the story, but I don’t remember anything other than “the seventh reaper”.

Firstly I don’t think the gods ever intended to kill other gods, as shown by the imprisonment of both Dhuum and Abaddon.

Abaddon was in a state where his hands and head were dismembered from his body and constant bombardment to his face would send him over the edge destroying him. I think it’s fair to assume any of the gods were capable of kicking him in the face until he died.

Dhuum was put to sleep and while sleeping could likely have also been assaulted and brought to the brink of exploding. So I don’t think it had anything to do with their power being too great, but more so the reasoning on why would it be worth destroying a god with no replacement or other reasonings.

I’m still of the opinion that if the gods were having any significant trouble they would just ask the PC to clean it up for them, so I doubt Grenth is really under any pressure.

Lore wise I think Abaddon would have been strongest in combat followed by Balthazar but there’s no adequate way of measuring the strength of each individual god.

@Narcemus: Priestess Rhie suspects that it was the Reaper of the Ice Wastes, iirc, calling him the most loyal one. But it’s never outright said.

@WonderfulCT: The gw.dat for Nightfall says that Abaddon was actually re-creating his body ever since Varesh began her rituals (each of the three rituals were said to unlock some of the gates in the Realm of Torment, allowing Abaddon to draw power from them – again, according to the gw.dat). This implies that Abaddon was actually killed before – and may be what actually caused the creation of the Crystal Desert/The Desolation. But that’s conjecture.

Nonetheless, I agree that “unwilling to kill” is not the same as “unable to kill.”

I’m in agreement with Konig on the idea that Grenth likely didn’t kill Dhuum out of some sense of mercy, or fear of consequences, or even because he couldn’t. I think very much that he could have ended Dhuum once and for all when he first subsumed him as the new God of Death. He did it because he wanted to make a point. The schism between the two is afterall, entirely philosophical after all. Dhuum believed that Death was a finality, an inevitable end that must be met and cannot be turned away or fled from. He was the Omega Death, the End.

While Grenth did feel that Death would eventually come to everyone, he allowed for much more ‘play’ room through the form of ressurection and allowing life to be prolonged were it able.

My personal gut feeling is that he defeated but didn’t kill Dhuum as insult to injury. “You are defeated, but you will not die. You will not receive the release of your own final death, but suffer in extended life.” It would be the biggest back hand to deny somebody like Dhuum from even fulfilling his own outlook on death.

I do not feel that Grenth would have done it as a backhand or even an insult. Grenth was known before he was even fully god to have a sense of Judgement. From the Orrian History Scroll, “Grenth, son of Dwayna, first god born of Tyria. His powers deal in mortality and judgment. Defeater of Dhuum, Lord of the Seven Reapers, he is the prince of ice and sorrow.” In my mind his judgement was that Dhuum’s rest, and possibly even his escapes and defeats against mere mortals was the proper punishment for his crimes, whatever they may be.

Well maybe as the former God of Death, Dhuum simply can’t be killed. In the same vein, perhaps now Grenth cannot be killed as a consequence of his station. Dhuum is also known as the Emperor of Oblivion, so maybe he’s incapable of being destroyed.

If not the case, Grenth and Dhuum approach death from different perspectives, and considering that Grenth is also a God of Judgment he may have denied Dhuum death because of reasons.

I’ve personally believed for a long time that Dhuum cannot be killed because Dhuum IS death, and that perhaps he is even tied more to Tyria than the Mists. I mean you can imagine the outlook of the “angel of death” of a world that constantly goes through this type of death/rebirth situation. He would eventually fall into the mindset that life is only made to be snuffed out. Grenth felt that this being was so jaded against the outcries of the living that perhaps it was time he was removed and a more merciful god took his place. This is very speculative, just a theory.

Rather than “Dhuum is death” like he likes to claim, I believe that the Six Gods are all-powerful within their domain alone (human religion says they are each all-powerful, but more powerful than the other in their own domain – a paradox for Kerrsh). Which would lead the god(s) of death to be able to full control death – and thus their own (in a similar light, Dwayna would be able to control all life, thus be unable to be killed as well unless she doesn’t mind dying – the other gods, though, are subject to death).

Well then I would say Balthazar is also immune to death, because of the fact that he is all powerful within the realm of war, making him impossible to defeat (except for 1 very poor human being). I don’t fully believe this sentiment though just because of the fact that one on one Abaddon, who only really ruled over illusions, knowledge, and water (that we know of) would have won all out, at least so we are told.

Unable to die in battle wouldn’t be the same as being unable to die. He could be poisoned while relaxing or something. Maybe. Similarly, he could be outsmarted (as proven by a mere mortal) – explaining how Abaddon would be able to defeat him and any other god (or just any other two gods and not Balth) – it’s never said Abaddon would be able to kill gods, after all.

No, and I never stated that Abaddon would have killed them. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps all of the gods combined gave them the ability to protect each others weaknesses. This doesn’t mean that I believe that each god is ALL POWERFUL in their respective realm. It just doesn’t ring true to me with the way that the Guild Wars universe is set up.

Well it seems to be what human legends currently claim and would certainly explain why Dhuum was unable to be killed (Grenth did imprison Dhuum and probably could have killed him after; but it’s stated that when Grenth usurped Dhuum, he couldn’t kill the now-former god of death – for all we know, Dhuum is still a legit god and Grenth is still only a half-god (would explain why he had to “earn” his right to live in Arah with his dear ol’ mum)).

Narcemus.1348:

Well then I would say Balthazar is also immune to death, because of the fact that he is all powerful within the realm of war, making him impossible to defeat (except for 1 very poor human being). I don’t fully believe this sentiment though just because of the fact that one on one Abaddon, who only really ruled over illusions, knowledge, and water (that we know of) would have won all out, at least so we are told.

Actually it would make perfect sense. If each god was all-powerful in their respective realms, it would stand to reason that the God of Knowledge possesses the knowledge to defeat other gods.

I agreed that it makes some sense. I just stated I wasn’t hopping on the band wagon just yet.

Abaddon was only able to be destroyed completely because his power was absorbed by Kormir. This was never the case with Dhuum, so he simply fell into sleep once more, waiting to regenerate and rage upon the Underworld once more.

One might ask why this is so. The PC defeated Dhuum at the end of the Underworld storyline. A ritual similar to the one used to transfer the power of Abaddon could have been used on Dhuum while he was in his weakened, slumbering state.

The only answer that I can come up with is that the gods did not want Dhuum destroyed completely, and so did not give their blessing to such a ritual.

Dhuum’s power was absorbed by Grenth in Orr (presumably around 48 BE). So that’s a major flaw in your theory.

The objective in the Underworld never was to kill Dhuum, just re-imprison him.

Most of his power. Not all. If all was absorbed, he would have had the same fate as Abaddon.

And yes, it was to re-imprison him. But why? Why not kill him, like Abaddon? Why wasn’t that the wish of the gods?

I’d like to believe they have plans with him. Maybe he could be used against the thing they fled from, or he knows something that can win them the war.

Alternatively, as he’d like to believe, he may cannot be killed indeed.

Actually, it’s never said how much of Dhuum’s power was absorbed. Just that there was a transference of power, and that Dhuum couldn’t be killed by Grenth.

As to why re-imprison… well, would you want one of eight mortals who raided your domain dozens of times, unleashing Dhuum, and being easily gullible into killing hundreds – nay, thousands – just because said mortal was told to kill “bad guys” to become a god?

Thing with Abaddon is this: He was a full-fledged god, and there was a good replacement for him present, and he was not only just breaking free but even while still imprisoned, he was transforming the world of Tyria. Dhuum on the other hand only gains power from deaths within the Underworld and nothing else. Why this is so is unknown, but he’s still called a “fallen god” irregardless, even if Dhuum claims to be death itself.

Why is Dhuum left alive? I theorize two things:

1. Dhuum is right in that he cannot be killed. This goes along the theory that all gods are omnipotent in just their domain (Abaddon/Kormir is all knowing, Balthazar cannot be bested in physical combat, Dhuum has absolute control of death, and Dwayna over life). In this scenario, Grenth absorbed Dhuum’s power to become a god himself, but he isn’t a real god of death – but instead simply a “God of Mortality” and he’s merely “filling in” as God of Death. Maybe the Six are hoping Dhuum will have a change of heart from his imprisonment.
2. Or two: it’s Grenth’s idea of justice. Dhuum hates undead, but look at him now? He’s a skeleton without legs. He refuses to give others a second chance at life (resurrections) even to the point of hunting down those who had a near-fatal experience but survived. Grenth’s letting such be, despite the harm it causes, and Dhuum probably knows it… and seems to be living as something he hates. Maybe it’s not that Grenth couldn’t kill Dhuum, but wouldn’t – as punishment for Dhuum’s actions. A kind of “I have no mouth and I must scream” kind of scenario of punishment, and Dhuum will be left alive in such a scenario until Grenth deems that Dhuum has experienced enough rightful punishment.

Grenth tried to absorb Dhuum’s power but as a demigod he could only absorb half of it. “Make the choice that only a mortal could make”. Seeing as how Grenth was not a mere mortal, he could not take all of Dhuum’s power only enough to entrench himself as a new god of death. His glass was already half full. As players in the Underworld, we are not given the chance to ascend because the gods do not feel that Dhuum needs to be killed just resealed.