Did Rytlock cause [Episode 5]?

Did Rytlock cause [Episode 5]?

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Warning: Spoilers below!

So, while making a response to this thread, I was struck by a thought…

Rytlock’s probably not a god in disguise. Rytlock’s almost certainly not a god in disguise.
However, one theory as to why Rytlock is no longer pursuing ending the Foefire, and had been avoiding the Black Citadel until his arrest, is that he was warned against it… and his apparent blindness suggests that he might have had an encounter with a god. One at full power, not diminished like Balthazar was.

Meanwhile, from the Orrian History Scrolls, it’s indicated that Balthazar was responsible for inciting humans to war against other races – against the wishes of Melandru, and it is implied, Dwayna as well. While the causes of the initial human-charr war remain obscure to us, then, it’s possible to conclude that it was Balthazar who started that war.

What if Rytlock found himself before the gods and made a case to them that Balthazar was therefore basically responsible for all of the suffering caused directly or indirectly by the charr-human war – the Searing, the Cataclysm, the White Mantle, the Foefire, and all of that. And a majority of the gods agreed with him, and Balthazar’s punishment was to be, in his words, “abated”?

It would fit the timeline – Rytlock pops out of the Mists in the aftermath of the downing of the Pact fleet, seemingly in just the right place and with a pretty good idea of what was going on – as if he’d been informed of what he was going into. Meanwhile, the depowered Balthazar has the opportunity to make his way to Tyria, check on the bloodstones (the most obvious sources of magic to go for that aren’t dragons), find the White Mantle operations around Bloodstone Fen, and spot an opportunity. It would also provide an additional explanation as to why Balthazar would use a disguise – if he tried just revealing himself in Divinity’s Reach and exploiting his divinity to gain a following, there’d be a risk that Rytlock would show up and reveal that he’d been cast down by his fellows.

Conveniently, Rytlock is removed from the plot before we get the first hint that Lazarus is a fake, denying him the possibility of putting two and two together and warning us of the possibility as soon as we discover the substitution.

Thinking more broadly, this might also go some way to explaining why Evon Gnashblade, of all people was interested in researching the fall of Abaddon. It’s possible that some of the charr had already pinned the blame on Balthazar and had been gathering evidence in case the chance to put him to trial came up, and Gnashblade’s interest in the human gods was related to this.

It’s a long shot, but I think there could be a connection here. Thoughts?

(Title edited to remove potential spoiler)

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

(edited by draxynnic.3719)

Did Rytlock cause [Episode 5]?

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Posted by: Temihal.8651

Temihal.8651

While I too had the first impression of Balthazar impling the other gods as “they”, the whole Rytlock/charrs accusing him and the gods listening to them seems off to me.
Gods never showed any kind of impartiality towards races, they’re always on the humans’ side.
Also, when Balthazar was guiding humans to the conquest of Tyria the other gods agreed (even if they would have wished for another thing).
When a god goes against the agreed position of the others they never showed the intention to simply “leave him alone” (as with Abaddon).
It would be really silly for them to just blame him hundreds of years later.

Rytlock is hiding something about is little trip though, and the timing for the two (Rytlock and Balthazar) is indeed suspicious.
I don’t think he is the cause of it all, but I think he may know more than us.

Did Rytlock cause [Episode 5]?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I’m more or less in the same boat as Temihal. I have deep suspicions that Rytlock got tangled up in this god plot, but for his arrival to prompt the other gods to turn against Balthazar would require him to tell them something they don’t already know. The idea that Balthazar kicked off the war against the charr, and that everything that came of it can be laid at his feet, was pieced together from human mythology. Either the gods would already know that, or they would know better. For Rytlock to provide anything new in that regard would take either an eerily accurate charr myth documenting an interaction with Balthazar that the other gods weren’t informed of and that we players have just happened to never here, or else Rytlock happening to stumble upon some of Balthazar’s dirty laundry while in the Mists, that he had, again, managed to hide from the other gods for fifteen hundred years or so.

Alternatively, it might have been that the gods already knew, and were just waiting for a charr to get over their antitheism and bring the problem to ‘trial’, but that paints the gods as petty and reactive, not taking action until prompted to by some puny mortal. I’m not keen on that idea.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

Did Rytlock cause [Episode 5]?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Spoilers: Menzies died a long, long time ago, and Balthazar pretended Menzies was alive to keep an ongoing war – even before GW1. This is why we never saw hide nor hair of Menzies, and why Admiral Saidon the Eternal talks about eternal conflict in the Fissure of Woe, and why he never aided against the war against the Shadow Army. Saidon knew the truth. Why else put an otherwise completely pointless NPC in the Fissure of Woe – we know that even in Prophecies ArenaNet was seeding small one-liners about future intended plots if the first game was a success (from Cantha and Elona to Joko and Turai and more). Menzies was even the only one of the three “prime evils” to be free – why wait so long to assist Abaddon and Dhuum? And why would the Fissure of Woe be in eternal conflict if Menzies can be killed – except he can’t because the conflict is caused by none other than Balthazar against himself.

Further, Balthazar aided Abaddon and Dhuum, unbenownst to the other five gods, because that would incite a divine war in the Mists which is better for him than his false war with himself. He even pushed Abaddon to his fall – and we would have learned this years ago if Evon had won. This is why Evon wanted to show people the truth of Abaddon’s fall – he had suspicions about the god of mass murder enticing divine conflict, but needed proof. He told Rytlock at some point, and Rytlock investigated when he was in the Mists. He found the truth out, pointed it out to the other gods, and bam, fallen Balthazar.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

Did Rytlock cause [Episode 5]?

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Keep in mind that it wouldn’t be the first time the gods have waited until a mortal brought something to their attention before they acted. That’s how the whole Bloodstone thing that lead to the fall of Abaddon happened, after all.

One consideration there is that at the time the gods left, the conquest of Ascalon had been a successful campaign. Dwayna and Melandru might have preferred a different way, but once the war had started, they were committed… and an argument could certainly be made that peace with the charr was not possible and thus they needed to be put in their place.

In the present, however, it’s clearly not so successful – the final end result was the destruction of two nations, with many of the souls of the dead being denied their final rest – something that Grenth probably isn’t happy about. Grenth’s focus on justice might well mean that he’d be inclined to seek justice for the victims of those events against Balthazar, particularly if he was confronted about them by a mortal (one which might have released some of those souls, what’s more). Furthermore, the fact that there is now a peace with the charr, and that there is now a charr in front of them who is talking rather than mindlessly attacking, could well be enough to make the gods change their minds about any justification Balthazar might have offered along the lines that peace with the charr was impossible.

It’s a long shot, I know, but I think it is possible there’s a connection there, and it would mean that there is actually a reasonable explanation for Balthazar’s fall that fits into the story rather than simply being a “we need a new villain that isn’t just another dragon, I know, we’ll just do a fallen god plot again!” nether-region-pull.

As an additional twist… we know the Khan-Ur died under mysterious circumstances. What if there is some record – perhaps on Tyria, perhaps in a fractal somewhere that Rytlock came across – that the Khan-Ur had actually invited Balthazar into a peace conference, and Balthazar took it as the opportunity to take the Khan-Ur out? It goes against what we know about the ancient charr, I know, but the Khan-Ur was clearly an impressive leader – it’s possible that the Khan-Ur recognised an enemy that the charr could not beat (at the time) but which they could possibly negotiate with. If this was something unknown to the other gods at the time, finding out about it could be enough to cause them to turn against Balthazar now.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

Did Rytlock cause [Episode 5]?

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

The bloodstone is a little different, because of the timescale involved. There was one dev post a long time back that put a bit of a question mark on things, but most sources place the bloodstones becoming a problem and the gods doing something about it as about a year apart. Sure, from the human perspective, it might seem like Doric’s trek to Arah inspired action, but it could just as easily be that the gods needed a few months to draw their own conclusions. Fifteen hundred years, though, is a bit of a separate beast.

I’m not sure I’m convinced by the justice thing, either. On several occasions in the past you’ve argued that the sins of the past don’t justify atrocities in the present, and I tend to agree. What happened with the Foefire is pretty clearly the fault of Adelbern, the charr, the titans, and Abaddon, in about that order. Orr starts with Khilbron or the charr, depending on whether Khilbron knew what he was doing, and again winds up with Abaddon. To hold that against Balthazar would require a reasonable expectation that he could have foreseen the outcome, and I don’t think that’s a very just thing to expect.

If there does wind up being a story about Rytlock’s arrival prompting the gods to kick Balthazar out of the club, I imagine it’ll be rooted pretty firmly in the present. Something along the lines of Rytlock asking/demanding help, doing a good job of convincing the other five that it’s in everyone’s best interest, but Balthazar pitching a fit, either because of some pro-human bigotry or simply because his ego and Rytlock’s struck sparks. Making it some twist where Balthazar is held responsible for basically all of the conflict on Tyria between the humans’ arrival and the dragons waking up seems quite convoluted when a simpler explanation would do.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

Did Rytlock cause [Episode 5]?

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

The bloodstone is a little different, because of the timescale involved. There was one dev post a long time back that put a bit of a question mark on things, but most sources place the bloodstones becoming a problem and the gods doing something about it as about a year apart. Sure, from the human perspective, it might seem like Doric’s trek to Arah inspired action, but it could just as easily be that the gods needed a few months to draw their own conclusions. Fifteen hundred years, though, is a bit of a separate beast.

All possible, but the fact does remain – from what we know, it was Doric that pushed them to make the decision. Whether it was truly him that stirred them to action, whether they were already leaning that way and Doric pushed them over the edge, or even whether Doric’s arrival was pure coincidence, we just don’t know.

That said, the same could be true of Rytlock. Some of the gods might already be feeling that Balthazar was possibly a liability, and Rytlock may have pushed them over the edge (or put them into a position where they had to take action or lose face themselves).

I’m not sure I’m convinced by the justice thing, either. On several occasions in the past you’ve argued that the sins of the past don’t justify atrocities in the present, and I tend to agree. What happened with the Foefire is pretty clearly the fault of Adelbern, the charr, the titans, and Abaddon, in about that order. Orr starts with Khilbron or the charr, depending on whether Khilbron knew what he was doing, and again winds up with Abaddon. To hold that against Balthazar would require a reasonable expectation that he could have foreseen the outcome, and I don’t think that’s a very just thing to expect.

Well, the full argument is generally about how the sins of past generations do not justify atrocities upon their innocent descendants. It’s a little different when you have the specific person who did it at hand.

I’d be inclined to agree that judging Balthazar for events that happened afterwards, mostly through the machinations of Abaddon, would be a little harsh – however, the gods might not think that way. Certainly, though, Balthazar’s actions could be argued as having made that possible. For some people, possibly including the gods, consequences that could not be foreseen still matter – and Balthazar’s possible loose-cannon behaviour had set up those events. It may be enough for the gods to decide that they could no longer afford such behaviour… but while the gods decide that they can’t afford to have Balthazar as one of them any more, they don’t deem Balthazar as being deserving of further punishment. So instead of being imprisoned in a hell-dimension as Abaddon was, he’s set loose, with the means to disguise himself against any of his enemies that might seek to exploit his reduced state to finish him off.

If there does wind up being a story about Rytlock’s arrival prompting the gods to kick Balthazar out of the club, I imagine it’ll be rooted pretty firmly in the present. Something along the lines of Rytlock asking/demanding help, doing a good job of convincing the other five that it’s in everyone’s best interest, but Balthazar pitching a fit, either because of some pro-human bigotry or simply because his ego and Rytlock’s struck sparks. Making it some twist where Balthazar is held responsible for basically all of the conflict on Tyria between the humans’ arrival and the dragons waking up seems quite convoluted when a simpler explanation would do.

Also a plausible scenario!

I do find it unlikely that disagreement alone would cause the gods to cast out one of their number, however – the gods have had arguments amongst themselves in the past. Actively casting him out is a pretty big action to take that would require more than a mere difference of opinion. That said, Balthazar could have aggravated the difference of opinion in some manner – by attempting to kill Rytlock himself after the other gods had agreed to help, for instance, or by declaring that if the gods were to end their policy of non-interference on Tyria, then he’d go down and crush the charr himself. That might be enough to trigger the other gods to depower him – either permanently, or perhaps they might have intended to give his power back once he calmed down.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.