Guild Wars 2

Recently, we were liberting the temple of Lyssa in Orr from Zhaitan and the high priestess there literally told us that Zhaitan consumed the six gods.

I know it’s possible that’s bluff but afterwards, we went to liberate the temple of Dwayna and guess what that high priestess said. That we don’t stand a chance against Zhaitan, just as the gods didn’t.

I’m unsure if there’s proof that the gods simply left or if they indeed vanished but it feels like these might be subtle hints that their disappearance might have been due to a fight with an Elder Dragon

If that’s true, then there’s no way we, with a few guns could have really killed him.

yes there is as gods= magic and elder dragons eat magic;)
we could kill him without useing magic

It’s probably not true. Five of the Gods left for the Mists 1000+ years ago, and the sixth one joined them 250 years ago. Unless he has access to the Mists, there is no way Zhaitan could have eaten them. I suspect that the Risen priests believed what they were saying, but had either been lied to by Zhaitan/its minions, or drawn erroneous conclusions when they were reanimated and saw what had happened.

There were two threads about this a couple of months ago. Here’s the more relevant. (In no way at all I’m trying to lecture you, as I know the search feature on these forums is a kittening mess.)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Status-of-Lyssa-Spoilers/first#post1739502

And my detailed response:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Status-of-Lyssa-Spoilers/first#post1734492

Tl;dr: It’s a lie, a favored weapon of the risen in their psychological warfare to break the morale and hope of the living.

Zhaitan has simply corrupted the statues, which I suppose are magical in nature. And in doing so, broken any connection they might have had to the actual Gods they represent. But the Gods, as far as we know, are out of reach of the Elder Dragons. Perhaps wisely so.

Although there’s hints to Lyssa being omnom’d by Zhaitan if the Risen were to be believed, we know Grenth is living for sure thanks to the Cathedral of Silence personal story step. However, the risen lie a lot so it is unlikely.

Btw, the Priestess of Dwayna speaks if her as if she’s living.

However, a God’s power is indestructible. If it’s vessel is killed, it goes chaotic and threatens to blow up all nearby existence as seen at the end of Nightfall. Zhaitan gave off no such thing.

yeah actually god’s are magic creatures in tyria but as for me trying to eat a god for a dragon would be something like trying to eat… hamburger that is high as scyscrapper-building? from a lack of thing

risen are LAST beings I would believe in what they say

We don’t exactly see the gods coming to our aid against the Elder Dragons either. So how high they are on the food chain is anyone’s guess. Personally, I get the impression that the gods may be a little out of their league here.

my gess is that the elder dragons are the top of the food chain here but as in RL some animals can kill a human and we are the top of the food chain here like wise we can kill the elder dragons.

But how does that apply to the gods? Everything in the lore seems to indicate that the gods were not aware of the Elder Dragons, since they existed before the gods came to Tyria. But now all the races are in a dire battle against these ancient creatures, and the gods have conveniently left the planet. Are the gods afraid of these creatures? At least the Norn had their animal spirits come to their aid, and help them escape Jormag.

But the fact that the Norn’s spirits of the wild are not actively fighting Jormag, shows us that at least as far as the spirits of the wild are concerned, they are unwilling to take part in a war against these things. They may be outmatched. And maybe the human gods are too.

The gods were not aware of their location. There’s a difference. (Yes, I’m not denying the possibility of them not knowing of the dragons at all, but that one line from Randall – who’s starting to go nuts by that point – isn’t to convey the Six were ignorant of the ED.) Even if it sounds a bit stupid that the elder races found no trace of the dragons after they’d returned from hiding (Kralkatorrik was half-visible… >.>), it is still the case. If the races didn’t know – including the gods’ most loyal allies, the Forgotten – why should’ve they know? Especially when they came after the end of the previous dragon war.

Personally, I think their departure has more to do with the real reason for Abaddon’s betrayal and the threat that might be harrowing them through the Mists. They might’ve left so humanity and Tyria’s other inhabitants wouldn’t be wiped out by the thing that’d forced them to flee with the human race in the first place.

And to be honest, I’m not so sure the gods would be done for if they met an ED face to face. For instance, Balthazar could kill one without using much magic: decapitating/eviscerating the beastie with his flaming greatsword. Certainly, such battles could ravage huge swaths of land and the risks are definitely tremendous (gods blowing up/getting corrupted into a dragon’s servitude), it’s not impossible they could win one-on-one.

Yeah, in strength the gods and dragons WERE stated to be equals. Now that doesn’t mean that one on one it would always be a tie though. It could get really sticky in certain situations and the risk would be terrifying. Having a human god destroyed in Tyria, or worse, a Dragon-God…

Narcemus.1348:

Yeah, in strength the gods and dragons WERE stated to be equals.

Where?

I don’t know who, wanna say Ree, but this was years ago long before GW2 had come out. I do not have any links or anything, heck it could be one of those false speculations I said I read, but I want to believe that it was from a direct source, not just the wiki.

Oh for heaven’s sake…

The Elder Dragon’s didn’t even exist in lore until Eye of the North was written. And seeing as the Six basically went on an open-ended vacation after Nightfall, it’s hardly a surprise they never mentioned them before. Because the last time anyone had contact with them, the ED’s weren’t even in the game.

Given the current state of the story, I’d bet the farm the writer’s have it set up so that the dragons could go all “cookie monster” on any gods they came across.

On a bright note, Lyssa might grow to like Kralky’s style.

Aah, makes sense, probably lies then. I had no real idea about the gods’ power when compared to the dragons’.

I do hope we get some help at some point, Zhaitan let himself be gravely wounded – I refuse to believe that silly bit of gunfire killed him – but I doubt Jormag or Kralkatorrik will allow themselves to be so easily found or fought now.

Thalador.4218:

The gods were not aware of their location. There’s a difference. (Yes, I’m not denying the possibility of them not knowing of the dragons at all, but that one line from Randall – who’s starting to go nuts by that point – isn’t to convey the Six were ignorant of the ED.) Even if it sounds a bit stupid that the elder races found no trace of the dragons after they’d returned from hiding (Kralkatorrik was half-visible… >.>), it is still the case. If the races didn’t know – including the gods’ most loyal allies, the Forgotten – why should’ve they know? Especially when they came after the end of the previous dragon war.

Technically, we only know the Six Gods didn’t know of _Zhaitan_’s location. They may have known of Kralkatorrik and thought it best not to tamper with it. They may have known of all Elder Dragons, just not where they were.

Glint seems to still hold a tie to Kralkatorrik, seeing as she can tell when he’s about to rise, so I’d imagine he’d be the only Elder Dragon they would know where it is, regardless of where it slumbered.

Obsidian.1328:

The Elder Dragon’s didn’t even exist in lore until Eye of the North was written. And seeing as the Six basically went on an open-ended vacation after Nightfall, it’s hardly a surprise they never mentioned them before. Because the last time anyone had contact with them, the ED’s weren’t even in the game.

Irrelevant. Orr and Arah lore states the Six Gods didn’t know of the Elder Dragons’ location (or rather, as I said, Zhaitan’s location) and leaves it up in the air whether they knew of them at all.

Lack of statement doesn’t mean lack of knowledge, btw.

Obsidian.1328:

On a bright note, Lyssa might grow to like Kralky’s style.

Doubtful. She rather liked bringing joy and beauty to people. Kralkatorrik does the opposite.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Obsidian.1328:

On a bright note, Lyssa might grow to like Kralky’s style.

Doubtful. She rather liked bringing joy and beauty to people. Kralkatorrik does the opposite.

Oh, come on. Those crystals are beautiful. Aside from the crystallized bubbles. The mess Kralk has done is pretty awesome, in a awe inspiring, terrible way.

As for me the only thing to state that Elder dragons are equal in power to the six is the something like the dragons itself are something like counter to them.

Whet do I mean: Six are basically beings of pure magic and there are fighting mostly by magic. ED are consuming magic – more than that purely-magical atack seems to have no effects on them.
So the gods powers are countered by all that ED are – they cannot do them nearly nothing because that will make them more powerfull, and they cannot risk that they themself will be consumed. (even without any sureness that dragons stomach are enough big for the whole being as god….)

probably that’s why they are not interfeering to the fight with the dragon.

EDIT: to have more clear picture of that – imagine that You have most OP build on PvP – and sudenly You are facing something that in very dept of every aspect is counter to Your build – would You risk to pick a fight If you knew that on result of it depends all the fate of Tyria?

Another way to look at it:
The gods and elder dragons are both beings of magic, but from the opposite ends of it.
The gods are, essentially, magical generators, continuously making magic, infinitely fueled by the mists.
Elder dragons are magical batteries, absorbing the magic of the world and becoming more powerful. To an unknown capacity.

So, what would happen if they confronted one another? Infinitely more powerful elder dragons. Hence, the gods bow out and let the mortals fight the fight.

In all reality – there is no credible history to say that the gods and dragons haven’t danced this dance before. All we have is the human’s (incomplete) history, fragments of Jotun legends, and snippets revealed with great obfuscation by the forgotten and the other fallen races. For all we know Melandru, Dwayna, Dhuum, (Balthazar’s Dad), Lyssa and Abaddon were hanging around back in the day before the time of the giants – it’s just that nothing of civilization survived from then except broken Jotun and cavemen Norn. (According to Jotun legend, anyway)
Just a theory.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, we only know the Six Gods didn’t know of _Zhaitan_’s location. They may have known of Kralkatorrik and thought it best not to tamper with it. They may have known of all Elder Dragons, just not where they were.

That makes a ton of sense – we as player characters don’t really care about the aftermath of our exploits (going to CoF and murdering hundreds of charr) and don’t need to really deal with it. However if the 6 were to take on the elder dragons no-doubt there would be massive fallout. (taking on Zhaitan wasn’t pretty – but at least we fought him away from civilization, where as kralk was well within the range of other innocents).

Man In Zero G.8312:

So, what would happen if they confronted one another? Infinitely more powerful elder dragons. Hence, the gods bow out and let the mortals fight the fight.

You mean the mortals who use magic to fight the Elder Dragons?

Yeah, there goes that idea. First of all, are the Gods beings of pure magic? And how do you know that? Second, why would beings of pure magic be ineffective against the Elder Dragons? They may absorb magic, but they have been shown to be vulnerable to the damaging effects of magic. Draining magic from a magical artifact by consuming it, is not the same thing as being hit in the head by a giant magical canon. I think Zhaitan has shown us quite clearly that Elder Dragons can be shot out of the sky with magical weapons. So if the gods wanted to hurt the Elder Dragons with magic, I think they would be at least as effective as some of the magical weapons that the Pact uses, -if not more effective.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, we only know the Six Gods didn’t know of _Zhaitan_’s location. They may have known of Kralkatorrik and thought it best not to tamper with it. They may have known of all Elder Dragons, just not where they were.

Glint seems to still hold a tie to Kralkatorrik, seeing as she can tell when he’s about to rise, so I’d imagine he’d be the only Elder Dragon they would know where it is, regardless of where it slumbered.

If Glint, the gods, or the elder races had known where the Elder Dragons were, they would’ve made a pre-emptive strike – or at least started preparing a way to destroy them. Glint had a spear made of Kralkatorrik’s spine, which is capable of piercing dragonhide and killing them. Maybe weapons forged of Kralky can hurt Kralky alone, and the other dragons have to be battled with weapons made of their own parts, but Kralkatorrik could’ve easily been slain had they known where he was hibernating.

And that’s exactly what I was saying. They might have known of their existence, just not their location of hibernation.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Man In Zero G.8312:

So, what would happen if they confronted one another? Infinitely more powerful elder dragons. Hence, the gods bow out and let the mortals fight the fight.

You mean the mortals who use magic to fight the Elder Dragons?

Yeah, there goes that idea. First of all, are the Gods beings of pure magic? And how do you know that? Second, why would beings of pure magic be ineffective against the Elder Dragons? They may absorb magic, but they have been shown to be vulnerable to the damaging effects of magic. Draining magic from a magical artifact by consuming it, is not the same thing as being hit in the head by a giant magical canon. I think Zhaitan has shown us quite clearly that Elder Dragons can be shot out of the sky with magical weapons. So if the gods wanted to hurt the Elder Dragons with magic, I think they would be at least as effective as some of the magical weapons that the Pact uses, -if not more effective.

yep hurting them with magic works to some degree but what happens the seconed the god gets consumed by the dragon(worste chase senarior that is what will happen) the dragon will get its own production of magic and a huge one to infinate so it will be gg for us then i would rather not take that chance and just leave instead

Korsbaek.9803:

yep hurting them with magic works to some degree but what happens the seconed the god gets consumed by the dragon(worste chase senarior that is what will happen) the dragon will get its own production of magic and a huge one to infinate so it will be gg for us then i would rather not take that chance and just leave instead

I would assume that as long as all the gods work together against the same Elder Dragon, the dragon would not stand much of a chance. But that is probably why the writers got rid of the human gods.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Man In Zero G.8312:

So, what would happen if they confronted one another? Infinitely more powerful elder dragons. Hence, the gods bow out and let the mortals fight the fight.

You mean the mortals who use magic to fight the Elder Dragons?
Yeah, there goes that idea.

Yeah, well, they couldn’t kill Abaddon or stop Dhuum either without mortals intervening either soooooo….. your point?
Let me break it down more clearly:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

First of all, are the Gods beings of pure magic? And how do you know that?

Almost 8 years of playing Guild wars 1, and actually paying attention to what NPCs say about them and y’know, watching what’s going on. It doesn’t take much to put 2 and 2 together there on that point. Each god is attuned to and pushing a specific flavor of magic into the world. It is in the very game mechanics. And I’m pretty sure it was explicitly spelled out in that book that came with the retail copy of Guild Wars.

Second, why would beings of pure magic be ineffective against the Elder Dragons? They may absorb magic, but they have been shown to be vulnerable to the damaging effects of magic. Draining magic from a magical artifact by consuming it, is not the same thing as being hit in the head by a giant magical canon.

I didn’t imply they would be completely ineffective, I said their mere presence would make the dragons more powerful. And if one of them actually did get consumed by a dragon (since the gods are neither immortal, omnipotent, or omniscient, as the events of the entirety of Guild Wars shows, the defeat of at least one is possible) then you’d have a dragon being powered by an unending conduit of magic – because divine magic is not destroyed, it is transferred (see: Kormir). That would be bad. That very well could cause a domino effect. The gods know this. So they don’t take the risk.
It’s not like they’ve even set foot on Tyria as it is in all the time we’ve been playing – the most direct contact has been avatars and servants. What they have explicitly been doing, is channeling magic into the world via their Favor – and they stopped doing that when Primordius stirred up after the events of EotN and they fully withdrew from the world. It logically follows that they don’t want to give the dragons any extra power. I mean, look at the last time they actually had a conflict on Tyria – it turned an ocean into a desert. And that was one enemy. Imagine the result of fighting six. It isn’t about them not being able to hurt the dragons, it’s about them making the conflict worse.

I think Zhaitan has shown us quite clearly that Elder Dragons can be shot out of the sky with magical weapons. So if the gods wanted to hurt the Elder Dragons with magic, I think they would be at least as effective as some of the magical weapons that the Pact uses, -if not more effective.

Zhaitan was only ‘killed’ after a long campaign of killing off subordinates, cutting it off from sources of magic that were feeding it, and then assaulting it. How is throwing a a bunch of magical generators at it a better idea than starving it of magic?
Because that’s the core of the thought. Because of their magical nature, the gods had to back off, or their very presence would make the dragons more powerful.
Also, from years of experience with Guild Wars villians, there’s a high probability that the Elder Dragon attuned to necromantic magic isn’t just going to roll over and die when you kill it’s body. Liches are a thing in GW.
But again, we’re trying to rationalize a poorly written fantasy story. About magic eating dragons. Logic need not actually apply.

Man In Zero G.8312:

Yeah, well, they couldn’t kill Abaddon or stop Dhuum either without mortals intervening either soooooo….. your point?

Those were gods. You can’t compare gods with Elder Dragons just blindly. We do not know enough about the nature of the gods nor the Elder Dragons to make such wild assumptions.

Man In Zero G.8312:

Almost 8 years of playing Guild wars 1, and actually paying attention to what NPCs say about them and y’know, watching what’s going on. It doesn’t take much to put 2 and 2 together there on that point.

You can put lots of things together and still be wrong. Can you cite an actual source?

Man In Zero G.8312:

Each god is attuned to and pushing a specific flavor of magic into the world.

Pushing a flavor of magic into the world? What flavors of magic would those be?

Man In Zero G.8312:

I didn’t imply they would be completely ineffective, I said their mere presence would make the dragons more powerful.

That’s a large presumption based on zero evidence.

Man In Zero G.8312:

And if one of them actually did get consumed by a dragon (since the gods are neither immortal, omnipotent, or omniscient, as the events of the entirety of Guild Wars shows

We haven’t seen a god actually die yet, so how can you presume they are not immortal? In fact, how can you presume any of those things? What do you base these claims on?

Man In Zero G.8312:

the defeat of at least one is possible) then you’d have a dragon being powered by an unending conduit of magic – because divine magic is not destroyed, it is transferred (see: Kormir). That would be bad. That very well could cause a domino effect. The gods know this. So they don’t take the risk.

That is presuming the gods are magical beings, and that the dragons are capable of absorbing their powers. A lot of presumptions if you ask me.

Man In Zero G.8312:

It logically follows that they don’t want to give the dragons any extra power.

Or they left for other reasons.

Man In Zero G.8312:

I mean, look at the last time they actually had a conflict on Tyria – it turned an ocean into a desert. And that was one enemy. Imagine the result of fighting six.

That was against a god of water and secrets. These Elder Dragons are neither.

Man In Zero G.8312:

Zhaitan was only ‘killed’ after a long campaign of killing off subordinates, cutting it off from sources of magic that were feeding it, and then assaulting it. How is throwing a a bunch of magical generators at it a better idea than starving it of magic?

Correction, the starving weakened him. But it is the canons to his face that killed him.

Man In Zero G.8312:

Because that’s the core of the thought. Because of their magical nature, the gods had to back off, or their very presence would make the dragons more powerful.

Again, assuming they are of a magical nature, which none of us know for a fact.

Man In Zero G.8312:

Also, from years of experience with Guild Wars villians, there’s a high probability that the Elder Dragon attuned to necromantic magic isn’t just going to roll over and die when you kill it’s body. Liches are a thing in GW.

Zhaitan seems pretty dead if you ask me. We have no reason to assume that a necromantic dragon is automatically a Lich, and can resurrect itself.

Man In Zero G.8312:

But again, we’re trying to rationalize a poorly written fantasy story. About magic eating dragons. Logic need not actually apply.

Logic is important when you’re trying to make an argument for a position. That is why we insist a lot on citing sources.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Man In Zero G.8312:

So, what would happen if they confronted one another? Infinitely more powerful elder dragons. Hence, the gods bow out and let the mortals fight the fight.

You mean the mortals who use magic to fight the Elder Dragons?

Yeah, there goes that idea. First of all, are the Gods beings of pure magic? And how do you know that? Second, why would beings of pure magic be ineffective against the Elder Dragons? They may absorb magic, but they have been shown to be vulnerable to the damaging effects of magic. Draining magic from a magical artifact by consuming it, is not the same thing as being hit in the head by a giant magical canon. I think Zhaitan has shown us quite clearly that Elder Dragons can be shot out of the sky with magical weapons. So if the gods wanted to hurt the Elder Dragons with magic, I think they would be at least as effective as some of the magical weapons that the Pact uses, -if not more effective.

Pretty much this, the ED eat magic like humans eat pork. You can get stabbed to death with a pork rib. And you can kill a dragon with magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Obsidian.1328:

The Elder Dragon’s didn’t even exist in lore until Eye of the North was written. And seeing as the Six basically went on an open-ended vacation after Nightfall, it’s hardly a surprise they never mentioned them before. Because the last time anyone had contact with them, the ED’s weren’t even in the game.

Irrelevant. Orr and Arah lore states the Six Gods didn’t know of the Elder Dragons’ location (or rather, as I said, Zhaitan’s location) and leaves it up in the air whether they knew of them at all.

Lack of statement doesn’t mean lack of knowledge, btw.

Orrrr(no pun intended)…very relevant? Coleridge would enjoy a laugh over a pint at the level of suspension of disbelief in some of these forums. The cognitive dissonance created by ANet2.0 with the lore is almost entirely a function of a different writing staff. And if one can’t bring oneself to include that variable in the equation, there’s really no point in a mature discussion.

Lack okittennowledgment(by devs) doesn’t mean lack of existence, btw.

Reality Bites

we have acturly seen a god die i think he where called aboddon or something like that and hes mantle got picked up by karmir, and if one god can die they can all die and if just one of them gets taken by a elder dragon we would be in deep kitten and the gods most likely know that so they back the hell of to avoide that

Well, I wrote an exceptionally long post defending my theory, but it was so long the forum actually has prevented me from posting it, even in multiple posts. And the tone was more antagonistic than I’d like – probably due to the (imagined) tone I read the Mad Queen’s post in – and more than one misinterpretation of what I was saying. So best to skip to the:
TL;DR- I presented a theory, with a hypothesis, a logical progression based on evidence from the previous game while attempting to not spell everything out because spoilers, and a conclusion, with the caveat that “Hey I might be wrong, it’s only a theory”.
If one does not wish to agree with the theory, that’s fine. I’m certainly not trying to force anyone to agree, and I honestly think this is one thing the game will never explain.

Thalador.4218:

If Glint, the gods, or the elder races had known where the Elder Dragons were, they would’ve made a pre-emptive strike – or at least started preparing a way to destroy them. Glint had a spear made of Kralkatorrik’s spine, which is capable of piercing dragonhide and killing them. Maybe weapons forged of Kralky can hurt Kralky alone, and the other dragons have to be battled with weapons made of their own parts, but Kralkatorrik could’ve easily been slain had they known where he was hibernating.

And that’s exactly what I was saying. They might have known of their existence, just not their location of hibernation.

You presume that they had the spear at the time. Glint could have broken a spine off of Kralkatorrik’s back while he was in hibernation, spending centuries to put it into a spear weapon for others to wield.

Obsidian.1328:

Orrrr(no pun intended)…very relevant? Coleridge would enjoy a laugh over a pint at the level of suspension of disbelief in some of these forums. The cognitive dissonance created by ANet2.0 with the lore is almost entirely a function of a different writing staff. And if one can’t bring oneself to include that variable in the equation, there’s really no point in a mature discussion.

You’re claiming that the gods didn’t know of the Elder Dragons because in writing the Elder Dragons didn’t exist yet and that’s why they never made mention of it.

And it is true that the ED didn’t exist in the writing at the time. However, that doesn’t mean the Six Gods didn’t know of them in retrospective addition to the lore.

That’s why your argument is irrelevant. You’re ignoring the retroactivity of additions to lore. And honestly, I think you’re the one preventing a mature discussion because you simply turn every lore discussion you ever enter into a case of “lol Anet sucks at lore writing” or “the two games are utterly different in lore” – but the thing is, the latter is most definitely the case (the former’s just an opinion, so there’s no point in arguing against such a thing). Because while it may be different people writing the lore now – though not entirely – it is the same lore, just being expanded in retroactivity as well. Which is typically good, otherwise you’d never go into the history of the world. If they didn’t do such, Abaddon wouldn’t exist in the lore.

But discussing this is a moot point because quite frankly, you’re perhaps more stubborn and bullheaded than I am and I’ve already explained to you how even GW1 – even Prophecies – had done the very same thing that GW2 does.

Man In Zero G.8312:

And the tone was more antagonistic than I’d like – probably due to the (imagined) tone I read the Mad Queen’s post in – and more than one misinterpretation of what I was saying.

I may sound rather aggressive sometimes in my replies, but that is not intentional. In the end we’re all just discussing the lore for some silly game anyway. I’m just very keen on the facts, and when I get them wrong myself, I would expect a hard correction from any of you as well.

Do we actually know what the Elder Dragons are or where they came from?

Were they created by magic or were they born long ago? Were any of them ‘beaten’ before? How many times have they repeated the pattern of rise, regain power and destroy? What’s their link to magic other than eating it?

Living story is awesome but I’d much rather see us go after information and dragon related stuff than space-pirates. :P

Man In Zero G.8312:

Another way to look at it:
The gods and elder dragons are both beings of magic, but from the opposite ends of it.
The gods are, essentially, magical generators, continuously making magic, infinitely fueled by the mists.
Elder dragons are magical batteries, absorbing the magic of the world and becoming more powerful. To an unknown capacity.

So, what would happen if they confronted one another? Infinitely more powerful elder dragons. Hence, the gods bow out and let the mortals fight the fight.

The gods are no magical generators. At the dawn of time, the original Six presumably took control over various aspects of Mists. They are magical, they are powerful and immortal, the powers or aspects they wield are indestructible and eternal, but they don’t generate magic. You’re correct that they can replenish themselves through that connection to the Mists, but not to the point where they bleed magic out into the world.

As for the dragons, that’s not true. The Elder Dragons are not divine, but most likely the most powerful of dragonkind, those who survived this long and consumed several cycles of magic and civilizations. Dragonkind has this innate ability to feed on magic, their pores and bones soaking it in like sponges (the Zephyrites theorize this, and it’s likely to be the case). It includes uncorrupted dragons such as the cured/redeemed Glint, Kuunavang and the Saltspray Dragons, etc., not just the ED. The ED don’t have the divinity to contain the eternal powers of a god. They would blow themselves up along with the rest of the world if they tried to consume the energies of a fallen god. The only way an Elder Dragon can win without dying is if they corrupt the god.

And as Malafide said: Dwayna’s supercharged lightning strike is going to hit that dragon pretty hard. The form and shape in which magic is presented to an Elder Dragon do matter. Say, you like pudding. You become sated, more energized after eating it. What happens when I accelerate that pudding to the speed of a bullet? Nothing good, that’s for sure. The dragons definitely don’t like their delicious “pudding” blowing holes in their wings and face.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thalador.4218:

If Glint, the gods, or the elder races had known where the Elder Dragons were, they would’ve made a pre-emptive strike – or at least started preparing a way to destroy them. Glint had a spear made of Kralkatorrik’s spine, which is capable of piercing dragonhide and killing them. Maybe weapons forged of Kralky can hurt Kralky alone, and the other dragons have to be battled with weapons made of their own parts, but Kralkatorrik could’ve easily been slain had they known where he was hibernating.

And that’s exactly what I was saying. They might have known of their existence, just not their location of hibernation.

You presume that they had the spear at the time. Glint could have broken a spine off of Kralkatorrik’s back while he was in hibernation, spending centuries to put it into a spear weapon for others to wield.

Your logical fallacy is enormous right there. Do you actually think that if Glint had known of her master’s location and gone there to chip off a shard of his spine, she wouldn’t have killed him then and there? Okay, maybe their (weakened) link prevents that for some magical reason. Solution: Glint brings along a Forgotten/dwarf/jotun/w/e, gives the guy the spear just as she gave it to Rytlock, and tells him to stab it really deep into the beastie’s heart.

EoD does give the source of that spine shard: Kralkatorrik’s (last) battles, the same source from where Glint acquired a treeful of his crystallized blood that had rained on the world in those clashes.

No, the dragons can somehow mask their presence, conceal their location from those they don’t wish to find them. Kralkatorrik possibly knew of Glint’s betrayal when he went to sleep, so he shut her out, only threatening her through the weakened link with his thoughts of how he will consume and perfect the entire world. Glint had little chance of finding him, for he was only a shadow in her mind. At the same time, Primordus’ Great Destroyer remained ever loyal, so he had him and his armies flock to him before his rise that got delayed. (On second thought, the EDs might keep their location a secret from their champions even, only summoning them when their rise is about to occur… it would explain the Great Destroyer’s recent arrival in the Central Transfer Chamber.)

Aedrion.6483:

Do we actually know what the Elder Dragons are or where they came from?

Were they created by magic or were they born long ago? Were any of them ‘beaten’ before? How many times have they repeated the pattern of rise, regain power and destroy? What’s their link to magic other than eating it?

Unfortunately none of those questions have been answered yet. I personally believe the dragons to be Tyria’s the first and original inhabitants. Whether the Elder Dragons formed along with the planet from dust, Mists, and magic or they became dragon lords after their race spread over the world is something that I’m still pondering, but I see them as guardians of Tyria, keeping the levels of magic in check as well as being caretakers of various aspects of the world. Concerning their fall, I theorize that A.) they grew jealous of life/each other and started an infighting that resulted in the decimation of dragonkind through murder and consumption, or B.) some imp-like demonic entities took over some dragons, corrupting them while developing their elemental nature and the need to feast on magic in order to increase their power.

Thalador.4218:

If Glint, the gods, or the elder races had known where the Elder Dragons were, they would’ve made a pre-emptive strike – or at least started preparing a way to destroy them. Glint had a spear made of Kralkatorrik’s spine, which is capable of piercing dragonhide and killing them. Maybe weapons forged of Kralky can hurt Kralky alone, and the other dragons have to be battled with weapons made of their own parts, but Kralkatorrik could’ve easily been slain had they known where he was hibernating.

This is an obvious plot hole. I wonder if and how the writers will write themselves out of that point.

Thalador.4218:

No, the dragons can somehow mask their presence, conceal their location from those they don’t wish to find them.

They’re not very good at it though. Because they rely on the inability for people to see giant dragon shaped mountains in the landscape.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/f/fe/Kralkatorrik.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/66/Dragon_01_concept_art_%28Destroyer_Dragon%29.jpg

Thalador.4218:

snip snip

You missed the point because I was not apparently clear enough to follow, and are working from a collection of misinformation about the gods and dragons:
The gods themselves can be destroyed. They are not immortal. Source: The entire plot of Nightfall
The source of the god’s magical powers cannot be destroyed, only transferred. Source: The entire plot of Nightfall, the ascension to godhood of Kormir
The gods did, in fact, channel magic into the world. (They don’t anymore, because they have withdrawn completely from the world.) Source: The game mechanics of Guild Wars. The Favor of the Gods effect- enhances the magic associated with whichever god you’ve chosen to bless you. Additionally it was explicitly stated in the Guild Wars 1 lore that the gods create magic

As far as the Elder Dragons, we don’t know anything about them. The fact that they consume magic is evident in game. The fact that their presence corrupts their surroundings in a way themed to the particular facet of magic each relates to is evidence that they leak magic back into the environment. Their origins are unknown, their limits are unknown. Everything else you’ve speculated there is just that: speculation. In fact, much of it is demonstratably wrong: The Elder Dragonss are not even remotely similar to the lesser dragons – Source: Every official thing that ANet has ever said about them in EotN and GW2 for example: "Although these creatures are called dragons, they are as different from Kuunavang and Glint as night to day—more powerful, older, born of different, unfathomable magic, these horrors are controlled by no god nor any other power known to the races of Tyria. What connection they have to these “younger dragons” is unknown, but they certainly do not possess the mercy or familiarity with the sentient races of the world that Kuunavang or Glint portray. The cycle of their awakening reaches back to the time of the giganticus lupicus, and even further, back into prehistory. The only thing known about these monsters is that they have no pity, no curiosity—no concern at all for the other races of the world. Their only goal seems to be to dominate, to control, and to destroy. " -Movement Of The World
Night and day. Controlled by no god.
Nothing has ever been shown in game or elsewhere to even hint that “They would blow themselves up along with the rest of the world if they tried to consume the energies of a fallen god.” – where are you even getting that? How do you explain a frail, maimed human absorbing the power of a god, if a millenia old Elder Dragon who eats magic for breakfast cannot?

So, to rephrase my theory:
If a handful of mortals can kill a god and steal his power, why is it so hard to believe an Elder Dragon couldn’t or wouldn’t do the same thing? And with that possibility, however remote, wouldn’t that be a logical reason for the gods to bow out of the fight?
Again, not saying you have to believe it, it’s just a theory, but the logic follows.

Man In Zero G.8312:

Thalador.4218:

snip snip

You missed the point because I was not apparently clear enough to follow:
The gods themselves can be destroyed. Source: The entire plot of Nightfall
The source of the god’s powers (the part that channels raw power from the mists and turns it into magic) cannot be destroyed, only transferred. Source: The entire plot of Nightfall, the ascension to godhood of Kormir

If a handful of mortals can kill a god and steal his power, why is it so hard to believe an Elder Dragon couldn’t or wouldn’t do the same thing? And wouldn’t that be a very good reason for the gods to bow out of the fight?

That was my whole point.

I don’t think we can safely conclude from Nightfall that gods can be killed. Everything we learn throughout Nightfall, tells us that at least the gods chose to lock away Abaddon, yet he returned and slowly regained a body. And Dhuum was also locked away in the Underworld, but is slowly regaining his powers and breaking free.

So even if a god is obliterated by the other gods, at some point it seems they can regain their body and come back.

After we defeat Abaddon, Kormir takes his place and his powers… pretty much what Grenth did when he replaced Dhuum….. but Dhuum wasn’t killed. So did we really kill Abaddon? Or did we just defeat him? Can Abaddon return at some point? I’m not sure if we can safely answer that question.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

After we defeat Abaddon, Kormir takes his place and his powers… pretty much what Grenth did when he replaced Dhuum….. but Dhuum wasn’t killed. So did we really kill Abaddon? Or did we just defeat him? Can Abaddon return at some point? I’m not sure if we can safely answer that question.

“3 years of Guild Wars” video.
Jeff Grubb:
-“We had to kill him(Abaddon)”

…so I guess he’s dead.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I don’t think we can safely conclude from Nightfall that gods can be killed. Everything we learn throughout Nightfall, tells us that at least the gods chose to lock away Abaddon, yet he returned and slowly regained a body. And Dhuum was also locked away in the Underworld, but is slowly regaining his powers and breaking free.

So even if a god is obliterated by the other gods, at some point it seems they can regain their body and come back.

There’s a world of difference between obliterating and locking away.

The gods chose not to destroy Abaddon, they imprisoned him – leaving him in the custody of Grenth. Grenth chose not to destroy Dhuum, he keeps him imprisoned. Hence, they both try to escape, who likes being imprisoned? Nobody got obliterated.

On the other hand, Lyssa’s muse, in Nightfall, puts the choice of what to do with Abaddon in the player’s hands. And we chose to kill him. And Kormir takes his power. It’s pretty explicitly stated he’s dead in the aftermath. This does not compare to what Grenth (and later, we) did to Dhuum, because Dhuum just gets locked in the tower where Grenth keeps him. Not killed. All this implies is that the power of a god can be stolen.

To say the gods mercy in imprisoning their brethren, and the fallen god’s subsequent escape attempts has any bearing on their immortality is just connecting the unconnected.

And while I agree, GW villains have a distressing ability to come back from the dead – I don’t think we’ll ever be seeing him (or any of the gods) in GW2.

Man In Zero G.8312:

And while I agree, GW villains have a distressing ability to come back from the dead – I don’t think we’ll ever be seeing him (or any of the gods) in GW2.

You have a valid point. And if Jeff Grubb says he’s dead, then I suppose he is.

However, I think it is important to point out that Abaddon was severely weakened, and we had the help of the gods when we defeated him. So I think it’s not entirely fair to suggest that gods can easily be killed by mere mortals, when a lot more was going on. Abaddon was chained, with only part of his body restored. Lets not make it seem as if killing a god is an easy thing to do.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Obsidian.1328:

Orrrr(no pun intended)…very relevant? Coleridge would enjoy a laugh over a pint at the level of suspension of disbelief in some of these forums. The cognitive dissonance created by ANet2.0 with the lore is almost entirely a function of a different writing staff. And if one can’t bring oneself to include that variable in the equation, there’s really no point in a mature discussion.

You’re claiming that the gods didn’t know of the Elder Dragons because in writing the Elder Dragons didn’t exist yet and that’s why they never made mention of it.

And it is true that the ED didn’t exist in the writing at the time. However, that doesn’t mean the Six Gods didn’t know of them in retrospective addition to the lore.

Then just say so. Why try to painstakingly fuse incongruent old and new story-design when you could simply say something like, “…well, ANet decided to go a different direction with this part.” Thousands of new players are probably mistakenly under the assumption that this modern Tyria we have now was always an eventuality. When in reality, it’s the product of new writers with their own unique ideas superimposed on the Tyrian world.

It’s just disingenuous.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That’s why your argument is irrelevant. You’re ignoring the retroactivity of additions to lore. And honestly, I think you’re the one preventing a mature discussion because you simply turn every lore discussion you ever enter into a case of “lol Anet sucks at lore writing” or “the two games are utterly different in lore” – but the thing is, the latter is most definitely the case (the former’s just an opinion, so there’s no point in arguing against such a thing). Because while it may be different people writing the lore now – though not entirely – it is the same lore, just being expanded in retroactivity as well. Which is typically good, otherwise you’d never go into the history of the world. If they didn’t do such, Abaddon wouldn’t exist in the lore.

But discussing this is a moot point because quite frankly, you’re perhaps more stubborn and bullheaded than I am and I’ve already explained to you how even GW1 – even Prophecies – had done the very same thing that GW2 does.

You’re right, originally Abaddon wasn’t responsible for the Searing, the Cataclysm, nor Shiro’s fall. It was a “retrospective addition” as you say. The difference between that and this is that it makes sense with GW1. It’s a good fit in almost every way.

This stuff we have now isn’t even in the same state, no, same country, as what Tyria used to be like. And not just the lore, but almost every aspect of the game has been drastically changed. So calling it “the same” just because they(ANet) do is not just a gross exaggeration of the truth, but also insulting to basic human intelligence.

Either have the guts to recognize the giant elephant in the room, or willfully keep the blinders on. If it’s the latter though, I’ll keep on trollin’ to my hearts content.

I definitely agree that killing a god would be very tough. Abaddon had very little physical form, he was demented, there’s no telling how magically adept he was compared to his prime (where he was stated to be able to take on 2 gods). No doubt what we did was almost a mercy killing. I do not see Abaddon coming back though, mainly because of the absorption of his powers into Kormir. Should his powers have survived, I could have seen the possibility of everything coming back together, but with his powers gone and his physical form destroyed (what we saw) it seems unlikely (though obviously not impossible).

Man In Zero G.8312:

- snip -

The gods ARE immortal, but not invincible. Big difference. They can be killed just like elves can be killed in LotR, but just like the elves they won’t die of old age.

The eternal power a god wields can only be absorbed by a mortal blessed with the divinity capable of soaking up all that knowledge and power. Source: the final cinematic of Gate of Madness, the final cinematic of Abaddon’s Gate, and the Night Falls handbook.

Lyssa’s Muse: “And to you, Kormir, a most special gift.”
Lyssa’s Muse: “This is your world, now. This is your decision. You must make the choice that only a mortal could make.”

<player name>: “It’s running wild! It will destroy everything!”
Kormir: “I’m going into it!”
<player name>: “You can’t do that!”
Kormir: “Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!”

The gift of the gods soaked up all that power and knowledge, however, turning Kormir into a goddess in her own right. Kormir sacrificed her mortal life to save us all and was reborn as the Goddess of Truth.

The gods did not create magic. That in-game theory was refuted almost immediately, in Prophecies even. The gods released magic back into the world through the bloodstones. As for the favor of the gods: that’s just that. They fancied what was going down on Tyria, so they turned their attention towards the world (just as they gazed upon the Ascendants who’d been cleansed and made the pilgrimage to the Throne of Pellentia). What the avatars gave us is a magical blessing, simple as that. Their priests can do that, thousands upon thousands of mortals have done that in the course of history, too. By your logic, does that mean they create magic, too?

First off, the Movement of the World is 6 years old, and a lot of it has been retcon’ed already. In a more recent, pre-release interview with Jeff and Ree, they stated that Kuunavang, Glint, and Rotscale are all similar in a way. That way is more than likely to be the fact that they are all “lesser” dragons and/or (former) champions of an Elder.

Glint makes a far better comparison in EoD: “If you call me a dragon, you must call him a mountain. If you call me a monster, you must call him a god.”

Aside from the obvious difference in morals, the fundamental differences between freed/uncorrupted “lesser” and Elder Dragons are size and power.

The fact that they don’t have the gift or divinity with which a god’s power can be absorbed is more than enough to prove my right: whereas that frail, maimed mortal being had it, dragons are mostly powerhouses of corruptive, elementalish magic, without any divine nature.

Abaddon was shackled, weakened, and if the Asian lore documents are to be believed, he was still recreating his body out of Torment. Had he reclaimed his gear at the final ritual at the Mouth of Torment, he could’ve become more powerful than ever. And then without the Five to stop him, he would’ve won an easy victory over Tyria.

And I’m not saying it’s illogical that the gods are not interfering into this conflict. The risks and the devastation that could be caused are too large, but it’s foolish to dismiss that the gods would always fall to the might of a dragon, instead of the god killing the dragon.

1. You are using a different, and “gamey” definition of immortal. I’m using the actual english definition of the word as it applies to this situation: “Not subject to death or decay; having perpetual life.” Something that can die is not actually immortal. Fantasy fiction and gaming tends to misuse the term as : Doesn’t die unless you kill it. Fair enough.

2. You’re reading into Kormir’s gift differently than I am, fair point. I’ve always seen it as the gift was the “You must make the choice that only a mortal could make” part. As in, choose to sacrifice your “self” for the greater good. It’s a matter of interpretation.

3. Gods and magic – if you’re going to ignore completely any lore from the original game there’s no point in continuing down that road.

4. Dragons: Again, if you’re discounting official sources, no point in continuing, other than to reemphasize: We do not know anything for sure about the nature of the Elder Dragons. You cannon definitively say they can or cannot do anything.

Which brings me to:

5. In no way am I trying to imply “the gods would always fall to the might of a dragon, instead of the god killing the dragon”. Where did I say that? I said: “with that possibility, however remote, wouldn’t that be a logical reason for the gods to bow out of the fight?”
A “however remote” possibility is not the same as “the gods will always fall” in any way. Instead it says “if the possibility exists, there’s a possible reason for their absence.”
But: “Hey I might be wrong, it’s only a theory”.

In a lvl 78-80 personal story, we can chose to summon the Seventh Reaper of Grenth, who in exchange for his help, gives us the task to kill the risen highpriest, because Grenth wants him back. So he is pretty much alive.

Dragons can consume magic. But the gods aren’t items and probably have million times more power than a Dragon. Zhaitan’s fall = he fell down. Abaddon’s fall → a half continent destroyed. Abaddon’s death → almost destroyed 2 worlds.

Gandarel.5091:

Dragons can consume magic. But the gods aren’t items and probably have million times more power than a Dragon. Zhaitan’s fall = he fell down. Abaddon’s fall -> a half continent destroyed. Abaddon’s death -> almost destroyed 2 worlds.

so question is if the dragon have enough spacious stomach for the whole god
I think the don’t

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Gandarel.5091:

Dragons can consume magic. But the gods aren’t items and probably have million times more power than a Dragon. Zhaitan’s fall = he fell down. Abaddon’s fall -> a half continent destroyed. Abaddon’s death -> almost destroyed 2 worlds.

so question is if the dragon have enough spacious stomach for the whole god
I think the don’t

I can see Zhaitan chewing Grenth’s finger while Grenth reacts like “awww so cute”.

I think the big question would be whether the ED’s can adapt to hold more magic or not. If certain theories about their “creation” are true, then the dragon could possibly grow in order to hold the excess magic of a god. If not, then they probably couldn’t.