Guild Wars 2

Dustfinger.9510:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

I would say, in my opinion, some facets of the “new” lore are being sourced anywhere but GW1.

Go to GW wiki. Search Ley Lines. Then go to WoW wiki. do the same. Come to your own conclusion.

I’d agree with the first sentence here. But not the implication afterwards. Ley lines are a common element in fantasy universes.

Yes, a very common “explainitall” element used to explain any paranormal, depending on the fantasy genre involved. I am not saying she pulled the lore from Wow, just pointing out that Wow used it from the start, it has a background, the game lore was built around it, from the magic perspective.

GW did not, in either version. There is no mention of it in either game. The sole utterance of “Ley Lines” was an out of game interview by a single writer. That is hardly “lore” and certainly no reason to grab the element and run with it, kitten many are doing here now.

I agree that the Scarlet saga must reach its full completion, no matter how bad they are. Anet had already put too much efforts into them (story writing, game programing, voice acting, etc) to scrap them.

We can, however, expect better quality stuff after the Scarlet sega. ^^

I’m trying to think of where ley lines got mentioned in the Warcraft strategy games before WoW, and coming up a blank.

There’s probably actually good reason why ley lines would have been unknown in GW1’s time – because, simple put, magic (apart from magic coming directly from the Bloodstones) was weaker then, so Tyria’s natural channels through which magic flows might have been undetectable. More of that magic seems to have been released now, allowing them to become strong enough to be detectable.

based on Bobbys “response” to the criticism in the thread witch has bean none he only responded to berate one guy claiming hes not being team players basically a polite way of saying shut up and, giving shout outs to fans of scarlet i see zero evidence of the so called CDI here. what good QA dev would do is look at all the hate spewed over and over no matter how negative and get the idea of what the general consensus is and work on that idea not brush it off as being to negative then back off to then respond to people insulting the critics claiming were “to toxic” and “haters” this thread has turned to toxic spewing one and its all in anets favor.

About ley lines being unknown – they were unknown until only the past two or so years. It’s not like we today know everything about the Earth yet (think about the deep sea waters and how unexplored those still are), but if you compared it to, say, the industrial revolution era? Even less of Earth was known. It’s expected for Tyrians to not know everything about the world at this point, even with magic given how little is actually shown to us about it – and how much of its natures is being discovered still.

For example, until Gorr it was thought magic was an infinite resource.

That’s a good point. All the races knowledge has increased exponentially as they’ve begun to work with each other. So where as the asura where a very mysterious species in the vein of dwarves, their methods have become more well known and common place. The same goes for the individual knowledge that the other races have and how that has opened the door to expanding on that the way the Pact does.

draxynnic.3719:

On Abaddon…

The “campaign” model GW1 had involved two rotating teams with a one-year cycle for each team. So, while Abaddon was possibly still a Schrodinger when Factions started development, they probably knew who the god behind the curtain was before Factions was finalised.

Where do you get that info? The inspiration for the Factions story was a real-life Korean legend(or fairy tale if you will). I highly doubt the writer’s had Abaddon in mind when creating the Teller/Shiro dynamic. I doubt they had a god in mind at all for that matter. A few npc’s effectively stating “you didn’t just save Cantha, but a greater evil” doesn’t have to make it mean divine intervention. If anything, they most likely left it open-ended for future development…which the Nightfall writers obviously acted on.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

About ley lines being unknown – they were unknown until only the past two or so years. It’s not like we today know everything about the Earth yet (think about the deep sea waters and how unexplored those still are), but if you compared it to, say, the industrial revolution era? Even less of Earth was known. It’s expected for Tyrians to not know everything about the world at this point, even with magic given how little is actually shown to us about it – and how much of its natures is being discovered still.

For example, until Gorr it was thought magic was an infinite resource.

That’s not the point.

The point is not that it’s possible Tyrians just didn’t know about ley lines yet. Of course it’s possible.

The point is the inclusion of ley lines in the first place is not only tropish and unimaginative, but also lazy. It’s not ok, in terms of creative writing, to simply copy and paste common fantasy ideas for no apparent legitimate reason other than “cuz their cool” and players already know what they are so they don’t need to explain them too much. lol

I was responding to drax’s comment about ley lines being unknown in GW1. Kind of supplementing his post.

The notion of magic being part of the world in of itself may seem “tropish” or “unimaginative” but it is also reasonable and logical. The magic seeps in the land – this was shown in GW1 even. The term ley lines – a term not used in the game yet might I add – is likely used only for familiarity.

What would you prefer: “Ley lines are channels in which the world has been saturated with magic.” or “Akaboshinthes are channels in which the world has been saturated with magic.”

I prefer the former. And yes, I may have been exaggerating but my point, that hotspots of magical saturation, makes perfect logical sense and it tends to be better for audience familiarity to use common terms rather than making up new terms for what is more or less the same thing.

Obsidian.1328:

draxynnic.3719:

On Abaddon…

The “campaign” model GW1 had involved two rotating teams with a one-year cycle for each team. So, while Abaddon was possibly still a Schrodinger when Factions started development, they probably knew who the god behind the curtain was before Factions was finalised.

Where do you get that info? The inspiration for the Factions story was a real-life Korean legend(or fairy tale if you will). I highly doubt the writer’s had Abaddon in mind when creating the Teller/Shiro dynamic. I doubt they had a god in mind at all for that matter. A few npc’s effectively stating “you didn’t just save Cantha, but a greater evil” doesn’t have to make it mean divine intervention. If anything, they most likely left it open-ended for future development…which the Nightfall writers obviously acted on.

ArenaNet was quite public at the time that they had two teams each making a campaign a year, with staggered releases. So while Abaddon may not have been envisaged at the start of Faction’s development, the bare bones at least of Nightfall’s story would have been laid out before the development of Factions had completed.

Frankly, I’d be amazed if they hadn’t reached at least as far as “dark forgotten god” when the invasion of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings happened.

Obsidian.1328:

draxynnic.3719:

On Abaddon…

The “campaign” model GW1 had involved two rotating teams with a one-year cycle for each team. So, while Abaddon was possibly still a Schrodinger when Factions started development, they probably knew who the god behind the curtain was before Factions was finalised.

Where do you get that info? The inspiration for the Factions story was a real-life Korean legend(or fairy tale if you will). I highly doubt the writer’s had Abaddon in mind when creating the Teller/Shiro dynamic. I doubt they had a god in mind at all for that matter. A few npc’s effectively stating “you didn’t just save Cantha, but a greater evil” doesn’t have to make it mean divine intervention. If anything, they most likely left it open-ended for future development…which the Nightfall writers obviously acted on.

I really don’t get your dissing of Abaddon. Dissing Scarlet is perfectly fine and greatly appreciated, as she is such a horrible disgrace to everything Guild Wars, but Abaddon? Get off the high horse… Abaddon was awesome and a very well implemented nemesis. I just wish we’d have been able to gather more on his personality in the Realm of Torment, like learning about some of his good deeds from the Solitude Plinth (mined from the gw.dat). Or him talking at least once in Abaddon’s Gate.

You want knowledge of Abaddon from Factions?

Even now, no one but Shiro knows how this act triggered what happened next, or whether it was his plan all along. As the twin swords sliced into his form, Shiro screamed, a sound that rose from the depths of some hellish place and grew to a deafening pitch.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

Realm of Torment hint in Factions pre-release!

“The world owes you a great debt, <player name>. If Shiro had succeeded, far more than the safety of Cantha would have been in jeopardy. You have been playing a game of greater stakes than you could have imagined. Someday, perhaps you will understand the true magnitude of the deeds you have performed this day.”

Suun, Oracle of the Mists

Thalador.4218:

Obsidian.1328:

draxynnic.3719:

On Abaddon…

The “campaign” model GW1 had involved two rotating teams with a one-year cycle for each team. So, while Abaddon was possibly still a Schrodinger when Factions started development, they probably knew who the god behind the curtain was before Factions was finalised.

Where do you get that info? The inspiration for the Factions story was a real-life Korean legend(or fairy tale if you will). I highly doubt the writer’s had Abaddon in mind when creating the Teller/Shiro dynamic. I doubt they had a god in mind at all for that matter. A few npc’s effectively stating “you didn’t just save Cantha, but a greater evil” doesn’t have to make it mean divine intervention. If anything, they most likely left it open-ended for future development…which the Nightfall writers obviously acted on.

I really don’t get your dissing of Abaddon. Dissing Scarlet is perfectly fine and greatly appreciated, as she is such a horrible disgrace to everything Guild Wars, but Abaddon? Get off the high horse… Abaddon was awesome and a very well implemented nemesis. I just wish we’d have been able to gather more on his personality in the Realm of Torment, like learning about some of his good deeds from the Solitude Plinth (mined from the gw.dat). Or him talking at least once in Abaddon’s Gate.

You want knowledge of Abaddon from Factions?

Even now, no one but Shiro knows how this act triggered what happened next, or whether it was his plan all along. As the twin swords sliced into his form, Shiro screamed, a sound that rose from the depths of some hellish place and grew to a deafening pitch.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

Realm of Torment hint in Factions pre-release!

“The world owes you a great debt, <player name>. If Shiro had succeeded, far more than the safety of Cantha would have been in jeopardy. You have been playing a game of greater stakes than you could have imagined. Someday, perhaps you will understand the true magnitude of the deeds you have performed this day.”

Suun, Oracle of the Mists

So wait mocking a character you hate is ok, but one you like isn’t? Everyone has different opinions. And both Abbadon & Scarlet are more similar than you think. Both of them seem to be behind everything that happens in the games.

Thalador

I wasn’t dissing Abaddon at all, I like him as a villain too. I was merely pointing out that his “responsibility” for a lot of the troubles in GW1 was retroactive in nature. And that he shares the same “behind it all” role as Scarlet.

As for your quotes, they were put in this post on the page before I think. Neither of them state it was Abaddon, or even a divine being at all, behind Shiro. Only that it was dire indeed. It could still be anything at that point.

draxynnic.3719:

Obsidian.1328:

draxynnic.3719:

On Abaddon…

The “campaign” model GW1 had involved two rotating teams with a one-year cycle for each team. So, while Abaddon was possibly still a Schrodinger when Factions started development, they probably knew who the god behind the curtain was before Factions was finalised.

Where do you get that info? The inspiration for the Factions story was a real-life Korean legend(or fairy tale if you will). I highly doubt the writer’s had Abaddon in mind when creating the Teller/Shiro dynamic. I doubt they had a god in mind at all for that matter. A few npc’s effectively stating “you didn’t just save Cantha, but a greater evil” doesn’t have to make it mean divine intervention. If anything, they most likely left it open-ended for future development…which the Nightfall writers obviously acted on.

ArenaNet was quite public at the time that they had two teams each making a campaign a year, with staggered releases. So while Abaddon may not have been envisaged at the start of Faction’s development, the bare bones at least of Nightfall’s story would have been laid out before the development of Factions had completed.

Frankly, I’d be amazed if they hadn’t reached at least as far as “dark forgotten god” when the invasion of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings happened.

Perhaps, but even so that doesn’t necessarily mean one begets the other. 6 months between releases and Factions doesn’t make it obvious at all about Abaddon. Again, the missions and story play out like he’s not even there. You’d think, if the teams were collaborating, there would be some solid mention of him besides some vague reference to a “bigger threat” or something. I still think Factions was written without the events of Nightfall in mind. However, I don’t think the opposite is true.

acedragonz.9387:

So wait mocking a character you hate is ok, but one you like isn’t? Everyone has different opinions. And both Abbadon & Scarlet are more similar than you think. Both of them seem to be behind everything that happens in the games.

And considering that Abaddon was a thousand plus year old god who gave the world magic with an established following of margonites/titans/demons/worshippers, while Scarlet is barely out of her teens, the similarities end there.

One being behind everything has far more logical sense than the other.

As Enokitake says.

It was a plot point that knowledge of Abaddon was well hidden, so extensive hints as to his existence would be out of place. There are a number of hints in Factions that point to the Realm of Torment, though, not to mention, the demonic invasion of the Hall of Heroes.

Just when which details were fixed is something I don’t know… but neither do you. I do know, however, from public comments by ArenaNet at the time and from contacts I had in NCSoft (who since left) that the structure was intended to be one of campaigns being arranged in linked trilogies – Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall was one such linked trilogy, while if the campaign model had continued, Utopia would have been the start of a new trilogy not as intimately linked to the Abaddon trilogy, but which would have been leading up to a climax at campaign 6. While the details hadn’t been working out, the overall big picture probably had (although it’s possible that Dhuum or Menzies was originally envisaged as the final Big Bad).

CHIPS.6018:

We can, however, expect better quality stuff after the Scarlet sega. ^^

can we? they could easily botch this again it.

draxynnic

I don’t buy it.

You’ll have to define “linked” for me too, I’m not sure how you mean that. By storyline, by theme, by npc’s, by gameplay?

For one thing, Shiro didn’t seem like the type of guy to take orders from anyone, he’d already nixed his duties as an Envoy to get back into the game…game meaning royally sticking it to the emperor(pun intended). Having the Teller influence him makes his slow turn to evil more believable, but having him side with Abaddon at all in Nightfall seemed off. If anything, Shiro seemed like the type of guy to want to get back at the dude who tried to play him. It would have been better if, upon meeting Shiro in the Realm of Torment, he asks you(the PC) to let him Leroy Jenkins on Abaddon in a meaningful(at least to him) form of seppuku.

Same thing with Khilbron really, although he’s probably a little more believable than Shiro for siding with Abaddon in the Realm of Torment. Even so, the way he’s portrayed in Proph he certainly didn’t need Abaddon’s urging(through that advisor ofc) to do what he did…he seemed mightily evil enough on his own.

The Charr…did they really even need an excuse to kill humans? Hardly. The Titans would have been a useful tool in their own right to wiping the Tyrian floor with humanity, they didn’t need encouragement. Or at least that’s how it seemed when you’re playing the game. I mean, the whole point of the Ascalon fiasco hinges on how the Charr got forced out by humans(and their gods) back in the day. Why even add another incentive when none is needed?

It seems to me they added Abaddon’s “behind everything” quality simply because they wanted something to…well…be behind everything. You’re right, it certainly links everything up in that regard. But I hardly think I’m way off the mark when I say that wasn’t their original intentions with Proph and Factions.

It was meant to be linked by storyline. That’s all I know about it myself, and I only know via draxynnic’s mentions.

As for Shiro, apparently you don’t know his background very well. He took orders as a loyal bodyguard of the Emperor for years – until the Fortune Teller told him he was going to be killed by said Emperor. It shows in Factions’ little flashback scenes that Shiro was very conflicted or just outright going insane over the Fortune Teller’s words until the very end – though he did prepare for killing the Emperor instead, all evidence points that he was hesitant until Angsiyan went and changed the plans to allow his entourage to join inside the temple.

Furthermore, Shiro Tagachi spent 200 years (roughly) inside the Underworld. Yes, a vast majority of the time after death Shiro was not an Envoy. Shiro literally became an Envoy… then nearly immediately betrayed them. He joined the Envoys for the sole purpose – it would seem – of returning to life.

All of this can be gleaned just from An Empire Divided and Factions itself. So Shiro was very much not “didn’t seem like the type of guy to take orders from anyone” nor was he “the type of guy to want to get back at the dude who tried to play him.”

Shiro is a classic case of a “noble” soldier who is turned evil by trickery. Though he was ruthless in his service against the Emperor’s enemies, he looked down on himself despite his obvious skills and he was by all appearances unquestionably loyal to the Empire. It was the Fortune Teller’s influence which led him to self-preservation over his life-long loyalty, as well as him tapping into dark forces that over the 200 centuries of wandering the Underworld and being constantly asked to become an Envoy (a position he had refused constantly for reasons known only to himself) had eventually twisted him to evil. In Factions, when we see him in present time you would not even consider the notion that he had once been a good (albeit ruthless) person. Nor does anyone view him as such anymore, even his contemporaries (well, until we go into the Realm of Torment and do the quest chain that reveals the nature of the Fortune Teller – those contemporaries met there note what’s mentioned in An Empire Divided: that Shiro was an overly dedicated person, even if offputting and to quote one of them “cold blooded”).

Some choice quotations to prove your view of Shiro false:

“Long ago, Shiro and I fought as brothers in the elite Imperial guard, and he was cold-blooded even then. Even so, none of us believed our eyes when he turned on Emperor Angsiyan and slew him.”

“You know, he did not always have such darkness in his heart. Ambitious, yes, but loyal to Cantha and a true guardsman.”

“Although it has been many years, I still cannot believe that Shiro alone committed the treachery against emperor. During preparations for the harvest ceremony he was on edge, talking about a fortune-teller and a choice he must make. He made no sense at all, and the whole thing still doesn’t. But then again, perhaps it can all be explained by how far out of his mind my poor comrade had gone.”

Even if you ignore those lines because they come from Nightfall, you can just read this section of An Empire Divided to see his life accomplishments; or alternativley look at the cinematics in Factions that depict Shiro’s past. Here he shows he has little self-value, seeing it as utterly ridiculous that he would be remembered so long after his death. Here he shows that he find it immensely odd that the Emperor would pay attention to him – again showing his lack of self-value. Here he shows his denial of the Emperor possible of feeling threatened by him; and here shows him slowly going mad by the Fortune Teller’s words.

All in all, Shiro’s history and words show that he is not someone who wouldn’t disallow following someone, nor is he someone to just simply want revenge. Besides, by Factions – even before Nightfall, it was clear that he was far different than he was in life.

Linked by storyline, as Konig says. Third part wraps up the storyline started in the first and second.

Konig’s already gone over Shiro’s character well enough. Regarding the charr – to use legal terms, they had plenty of motive, but they needed an opportunity, which the Titans granted. It’s also likely that, without Abaddon’s urging, they would have focused all their forces on taking Ascalon.

Lore is the last thing we honestly need to worry about, the fact Scarlet does keep reappearing is she probably plays a HUGE part into the lore of the game, she could have alot of points not yet discovered like why was she in the Thermonuclear reactor thing. Which itself has alot of lore behind it and possible links directly to the inquest and the dragons. Bobby and the team have the hardest job in the company (except maybe the Pvp balance team lol) SO with their OWN plot they want to follow and they have to slowly give us the pieces ALONG with the major plots of the elder dragons. So patience is a virtue here and i would waste ur cool downs just yet.

After reading up on Konig points about Shiro narrative in Factions, I went back and started to refresh my memory on the lore in Factions. I have to say I really did dismiss Factions for being the weaker story arch in the entire GW franchise. However after reading the cold hard text without hearing the bland voice acting made me rethink that position a bit. Also because I just finished playing through Dishonored, and I can’t get the voice of Michael Madsen portrayal as Daud out of my head. I actually now think Factions had a decent and somewhat interesting story. I did enjoy how they intertwined Shiro past with the present conflict with the PC. Just to flesh out his back story a bit more, so we could understand Shiro’s personalty before he went bonkers.

It kind of left me wondering how Terick (AKA:Razakel) eventually turned Vizier Khilbron to becoming a servant of Abaddon . It also makes me wonder what demon Abbadon used in order to convert Varesh Ossa and General Kahyet to his cause. Did he have another demon in the guise of a human or was it a full-fledged demon without the theatrics? I take it that the Fortune Teller ruse would be foundation of the pattern he end up using, in order to convert other potential mortal servants to his cause.

Anyhow I kind of wish that Scarlet past would become more prevalent in game; instead of just focusing on the “trouble she caused this time.” Basically more character depth and maybe shed some light on personality when she was still known as Ceara.

Sindex.9520:

It also makes me wonder what demon Abbadon used in order to convert Varesh Ossa and General Kahyet to his cause. Did he have another demon in the guise of a human or was it a full-fledged demon without the theatrics? I take it that the Fortune Teller ruse would be foundation of the pattern he end up using, in order to convert other potential mortal servants to his cause.

Varesh talks about Kahyet as “her teacher”, so I suspect that there was no demon directly involved in Varesh’s conversion – simply a human who’d already converted and managed to worm her way into the confidences of the ruling Ossa family.

My gut feeling regarding Kahyet is that she was actually the latest in a line of hidden disciples of Abaddon that’s been hiding out since the leak in the Realm of Torment two hundred years before Prophecies, or possibly all the way back to the Exodus. It’s even possible that the Searing was triggered at the time it was because that was when Kahyet was in a position to exploit it.

Konig

Umm, what? So you’re saying he went from loyal soldier to disturbed traitor…then back to loyal soldier? I hardly think his honor dictated he had to be loyal to anyone after his fall. At that point he was under his own steam. Everyone knows Shiro was once a noble person. The Teller’s urgings, along with his apparent low self-esteem, helped him make a dark decision he couldn’t escape from. What I don’t get is why, after 200 years and surely finding out the Teller’s motives in the Underworld by then, he doesn’t carry any ill will against Abaddon.

“Oh that was you poisoning my thoughts and making me doubt everything until I finally gave in and killed my master and consequently lost every shred of dignity I had? Meh, w/e…I got over it. Hey, I’ll help you kill these annoying Sunspears if you want, I’m still uber at dual wielding.”

If anything, his honor would dictate he should try and help the PC take him out when they meet him in the Realm of Torment, not side with Abaddon. And even if he was truly evil by that point, and beyond saving, he still would be royally kitten ed at Abaddon. Turning evil doesn’t make you lose your memory. I mean…he waited 200 years to spill royal blood to become mortal again, you don’t think part of that was out of some twisted need for revenge for his former life? Yet with Abaddon, the one who’s allegedly largely responsible for him losing his former life, he’s buddy-buddy. Doesn’t make sense.

So, you’re right in saying he used to be the type of guy to take orders. But that’s certainly not the Shiro we meet in Factions. He’s waaaay past the tenets of duty by then.

drax

Yes, they gave them the opportunity to invade humanity, you’re right. I was simply saying there was no need for Abaddon to be behind any of it. The Titan’s could have existed simply for their own sake just as easily, and influenced the Charr just the same, without Abaddon at all. It wouldn’t have changed anything for the Charr, except perhaps, which you pointed out, singling out Ascalon instead of all 3. Given the portrayal of the Charr in GW1, it’d be a rather large leap of faith to assume they only bared a grudge against Ascalonian humans. After all, they also blamed the human gods for losing Ascalon too right? And all of humanity worshiped them.

Obsidian.1328:

So you’re saying he went from loyal soldier to disturbed traitor…then back to loyal soldier?

No, I’m saying he went from loyal soldier to twisted traitor – he never “went back”, his act of traitorship was insanity taking fold, and this turned him to Abaddon’s side (Abaddon seems to use insanity has a tool as seen even more so throughout Nightfall).

Obsidian.1328:

What I don’t get is why, after 200 years and surely finding out the Teller’s motives in the Underworld by then, he doesn’t carry any ill will against Abaddon.

Nothing says he found out about the Fortune Teller.

We can only speculate as to why Shiro knowingly served Abaddon – or if, for that matter. We only know that the Fortune Teller twisted Shiro from loyal soldier into a pawn for Abaddon’s use. My theory would be that Abaddon offered a place of power among his troops (he is called a general in Gate of Madness, after all) and Shiro gave into the temptation of that after being ostracized as a traitor for an act he may have tried to self-defend as self-preservation.

Point is, the change makes perfect sense and has been seeded since day 1 in Shiro. Of all villains in the Guild Wars universe, Shiro is the most realistic and believable.

Konig

Agree on your last point, he was a really good villain. Seems very strange that he might have never figured out Abaddon was pulling the strings, especially considering his post-life surroundings, but I suppose anything is possible.

Still don’t think it makes perfect sense though. Shiro may have had a troubled mind and soul, but he just never seemed like the “well I screwed up royally, might as well go in whole hog” type. Then again, insanity bypasses all reasonable explanations. :/

Also, if insanity is Abaddon’s preferred currency, then Adelbern’s Foefire rage has got to be reeeeally suspect. 15 years post Aba-death but perhaps the seed was there already in ANet’s eyes. /shrug

Since when did “perfect sense” ever come into play with insanity? Might as well be asking the Joker to act logically.

And it’s not like Shiro is infallible. Just because we know something about Shiro doesn’t mean he knew it himself.

As to Adelbern – he started to lose his sanity with the Searing, like a few other Ascalonians (Sardalec Sanitarium existed for a reason), and he fell further into insanity with Rurik’s death. I think his insanity was just a case of post-traumatic stress disorder than being caused by Abaddon. Ghosts of Ascalon highlights Adelbern being a madman quite clearly, but his insanity was caused by more mundane reasons.

What? Someone going insane only because they are leading a dying people in a post apocalyptic wasteland with no heir to take your place when you die? Why would that happen? :P

You could argue it was triggered by Abaddon’s influence, but I don’t personally see what goal Abaddon would fulfill by setting that up. I mean the searing of Ascalon was in order to get to and destroy Arah, but if he had succeeded the Foefire would likely have hurt rather than helped him, unless he could have wrangled those spirits to being under his control.

Which is… actually possible, except that Abaddon died before the payoff happened. Not that I’m saying that I think that’s the case, but that I don’t think it could be dismissed that easily.

On Shiro… My interpretation is that after his death, he was essentially looking out for himself the whole time. He didn’t actually care about revenge per se – the Affliction was a side effect of his activities (one he took advantage of, but he never seemed to have a “get revenge on Cantha” motive there) – he was just looking to reincarnate himself regardless of who it hurt along the way. He went for the Imperial line because he needed to spill imperial blood to achieve his reincarnation, and he built an army before that because he needed an army for his invasion of the palace.

So when he came face to face with Abaddon… it’s reasonable that even if he was aware of Abaddon’s role in his fall, his thinking was less “revenge” and more “how can I make the best of this bad situation” – which in this case means serving Abaddon.

I also have a suspicion that the reason why Shiro came back when he did was because one of Abaddon’s agents or allies slipped him a few hints as to how he might be able to reincarnate himself – so it’s entirely possible that Shiro’s response to Abaddon was more one of gratitude than of blame. After all, isn’kitten bit suspicious that Shiro showed up on the tail end of Khilbron’s failed bid for domination of the continent of Tyria?

When it comes to the trilogies: I don’t like playing this card, but…

…you know what, I still don’t like playing that card just for some guy on the internet who seems more interested in grinding an axe than listening to reason. Believe what you want to believe. I know the truth.

I think Abbadon’s story was well written compared to something like Scarlet (via in game). Comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. Abbadon’s narrative works because it had better presentation, character depth, and pacing. Scarlet’s narrative arch has been practically a full year of miss match. You know those times when a developer sees a really fantastic picture drawn by someone (like Daniel Dociu) and then points to it saying “I want that in game now.” Only to have the lore written around the picture instead of vice versa. Yeah…. it feels like Arena Net have been doing that with every single living story update. Which is saddening because they have admitted to doing just that in a few interviews. The only difference from them doing that back then to them doing it now, is that there is shorter time period to develop said ideas before they ship.

draxynnic.3719:

On Shiro… My interpretation is that after his death, he was essentially looking out for himself the whole time. He didn’t actually care about revenge per se – the Affliction was a side effect of his activities (one he took advantage of, but he never seemed to have a “get revenge on Cantha” motive there) – he was just looking to reincarnate himself regardless of who it hurt along the way. He went for the Imperial line because he needed to spill imperial blood to achieve his reincarnation, and he built an army before that because he needed an army for his invasion of the palace.

So when he came face to face with Abaddon… it’s reasonable that even if he was aware of Abaddon’s role in his fall, his thinking was less “revenge” and more “how can I make the best of this bad situation” – which in this case means serving Abaddon.

I also have a suspicion that the reason why Shiro came back when he did was because one of Abaddon’s agents or allies slipped him a few hints as to how he might be able to reincarnate himself – so it’s entirely possible that Shiro’s response to Abaddon was more one of gratitude than of blame. After all, isn’kitten bit suspicious that Shiro showed up on the tail end of Khilbron’s failed bid for domination of the continent of Tyria?

I would argue it’s most likely that Shiro came into contact with Abaddon – or one of Abaddon’s cronies – in the Underworld shortly before becoming an Envoy, and convinced him that working for Abaddon would result in a new life (as a bargaining tool – “Work for my master, and he will provide you the tools to return to living” kind of deal, though Shiro still had to look up the exact details himself in Canthan libraries). His act of making an army seems to have been happening long before he actually discovered he needed imperial blood to return to life, so I think he was intending something else after becoming mortal – just perhaps not what most folks (Togo, Mhenlo, etc.) sans Suun thought which was taking control of Cantha himself (which is hinted at being a possible reason for his assassination of Angsiyan in An Empire Divided – before the truth of the Fortune Teller’s actions being revealed via flashbacks).

But I agree that nothing he does really say “for revenge!”

That’s pretty much what I was thinking, except a little less overt – giving Shiro a few hints knowing that Shiro’s efforts to follow up on those hints would cause chaos, and only later trading in on that gratitude to recruit him.

Anet, thanks for being so patient with these constant complaints. Some people don’t know how to balance criticism with personal issues. Don’t kick yourself over Scarlet, just continue what you’re doing and I’m sure you’ll have something better planned for the next arch. You’re still the Arenanet that made the beloved Guild Wars Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North. We all make mistakes, and it wasn’t even a big mistake, it’s just a character we don’t like. You’re smart people though and you have your reasons for doing what you do, and WE DON’T HAVE TO KNOW THE REASONS YET. So, know I trust you and I appreciate the fact that you can stomach some of this reading.

Just focus 99% on gameplay and 1% on lore if you ask me ..
This living story is like a basic tv show .. Way to much pressure to live up to a time schedule, and that results in weak writing ..

I’m almost sure the story would be better if it wasn’t rushed like it is with the living story .. Not that the personal story was amazing by any means, but at least there was some entertaining and funny moments .. If you absolutely have to spend your resources on lore, then focus mainly on humor pls, that is your strength .. I enjoy most of the living “story” actually, but the story itself is just meh ..

I must admit that I rarely care about stories in video games, except if I’m playing a story driven single player game. If I want to be entertained through media I can always go watch Breaking Bad or another amazing story. RPG’s is mostly just about progression through the rpg system, that’s the fun .. But it’s all about personal preference I guess, I know you can’t please all ..

I know that you will always focus on lore, and you should, many people enjoy it in MMO’s. Just had to give my selfish opinion ^^

BobbyStein.2315:

Eluveitie.1290:

This would give a lot of people peace of mind, Bobby, I hope you respond: is the end of Scarlet’s arch already on its way?

I mentioned this elsewhere on the forums, but I’ll say it here again. There is an end to the Scarlet story that has been planned out. I’m not at liberty to discuss release dates or the timeline, though.

This is somewhat encouraging news. To be honest though I am burnt out with the development of this game. I think the last time I logged in without immediately logging back out again was during the Tequatl portion of the living story which, while well intended was not as universally appealing as I hoped it would be.

High level difficult content is great (though this event was generally unaccessible to most servers except for the ones with the highest populations) and I was interested in the idea that Zhaitan’s minions could still function as their own separate entities without the aid of an Elder dragon (much like Glint), but then the story just stops there. We hear nothing new about the Elder Dragons from that point onward. It’s only about Scarlet and nothing but. The community keeps arguing over whether or not Scarlet is any good. There is nothing left to develop or reveal. Just put her out of her misery, please.

This is no longer Guild Wars. This is Scarlet Wars. I miss the old game. I like the new mechanics of GW2, but the flavor and essence of the original is long gone. At this point I would be happy if we just returned to something akin to the Personal storyline which is at least relevant to the survival of all of Tyria’s races against huge, overwhelming entities. We don’t even have Guild Halls in place yet. :shrug:

I get what op (and some others) are hinting at. I want Scarlet gone asap. If the Scarlet arc is completed, we’d likely never hear of her again. Thus, I’d like to propose a solution to the lore debacle:
Literally retcon Scarlet. Have her go into the mists, and somehow cease her entire existence. Better yet, have the PCs and possibly Kiel do this. Have people forget her and make all that she did never have happened. That would be a most satisfying end.
In the new fractal, for example, dialogue relating to her can be removed. The npc and her monologue can be removed.
The most tricky thing would be to explain those big zone invasion events, if the devs still want to keep those in the game.

I seem to be the only one that loves Scarlet. I explained why in many other threads, so I won’t do it here. I even understand more about what is going on then most of you; much to on the level of Konig here. I seriously think too many here have their heads in the sand and too human centrist on lore and are not really paying attention to the deep hidden nature of the storytelling in the game.

She doesn’t need to be retconned she needs to stay until a conclusion and people need to see that GW 2 is not about gods or anything in GW1 that was human-centric only. Its 250 years later people! Its not about humans anymore as much as you want it to be!

New enemies, new foes (ugh dragons cliche sucks imo) things I always wanted in GW 1 to happen: your enemies that seemed just mindless monsters (dredge/grawl/charr/krait/etc) are given a voice and roles in the world as much as or on par to us humans. They have their own agendas and actual societies different than our own.

Saying scarlet ruins the lore is to say all of gw 2, as a whole, ruined gw 1 lore with that sort of poisonous thinking going on here. As in the eyes of most players here, everything would be still humans and their gods and their enemies as mindless things to kill. Seems too many are still clinging on to Guild wars 1 of old.

The game devs should stick to its guns not listen to us at all (as we hardly know what we are talking about) and then focus on great lore options as follows, while building on holes in lore for the past 250 years that are relevant to now:

Mursaat, White Mantle, the mists and corruption in the human government.

This will be a win win for most players as it opens up Janthir and Maguuma and also gets us closer to Mordremoth. It also expands on living story for humans and helps rpers like me as my own RP is all based on WM/Mursaat

More Canthan based releases: even if its not the continent have more references to the lands and its culture and its people. We only had Majory and a captain’s counsel member in LA (wasn’t he killed by Mai Trinn, another Canthan?), and a few ascended and exotic items/weapons.

Eotn areas and what happened to them after Jormag’s rise.

Water areas and more ice and snow stuff. What more can be said?

Ring of fire:

Maybe we can see Mursaat fighting destroyers? Maybe make Mursaat have a good faction that split from Lazurus? As a sort of fall from grace as an ancient race redemption sort of thing?

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I seem to be the only one that loves Scarlet.

To bad she’s been presented poorly with such a small trickle of story that if it were water a cactus would dried up by now.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

New enemies, new foes (ugh dragons cliche sucks imo) things I always wanted in GW 1 to happen: your enemies that seemed just mindless monsters (dredge/grawl/charr/krait/etc) are given a voice and roles in the world as much as or on par to us humans. They have their own agendas and actual societies different than our own.

The problem is that they’re really not being given a voice or a role.

Krait got a little bit of development from the Tower of Nightmares release, but it was basically the bare minimum needed to make Scarlet forming an alliance involving a race that was known for its xenocidal (not xenophobic, krait don’t fear other races, they hold other races in contempt) attitude seem a little less jaw-droppingly contrived.

Nobody else in Scarlet’s story – Aetherblades, Flame Legion, dredge, Nightmare Court – has been given a voice or a role that goes beyond “Scarlet minion type C”. In the case of the Molten Alliance in particular, this has actually reduced their “voice” – they’ve gone from being villains with their own motivations and goals to simply being Scarlet’s thralls. This is where the “Lore Slayer” concept is coming from – when Scarlet makes an alliance, there is a tendency for the motivations and character formerly possessed by the constituent parts to be swept under the “Scarlet Is Awesome” carpet and be rendered inconsequential.

Taking the Molten Alliance, for instance: There was immense potential in that storyline – of dredge and Flame Legion leadership being put on the back foot due to allied charr-Pact occupation of the Citadel of Flames and due to rebellion among the dredge ranks, putting both in a position where they’re forced to recognise that they can’t stand alone and where each is receptive to a reaching out of the other. There was the potential for the story of one side reaching out to the other and making the case for an alliance, both sides debating over what compromises to make, and disagreements over priority targets.

What did we get? “Scarlet did it.” How do they decide what goals to pursue? Scarlet tells them. All of the distinctiveness, goals, identity, and, as you put it, voice and role of the dredge and Flame Legion charr has been buried behind two-dimensional cutouts labelled “Scarlet Minions Type A” and “Scarlet Minions Type B”.

That is why Scarlet has garnered the “lore slayer” reputation..

The dredge already had a voice given to them long before scarlet… they were once slaves of stone summit dwarves and Deldrimor dwarves alike in gw 1 and also kurzicks in Cantha as well. In Gw2’s time they were able to shed their bonds of servitude and take command of their own destiny only to be under a tyrant rule of one dredge of the name Shukov once more (sorrows embrace story mode). Its like, into the frying pan and into the fire deal. In gw 1, they were just mindless foes except for one npc in factions which wanted to make peace with humans. In Frostgorge Sound, they are trying to overthrow another tryrant. Scarlet would be their third (which they just didn’t have a brain to avoid) individual to lord over them in a sense. The dredge are just a sad tragic race in the world of Tyria as the dwarves before them. The Flame legion seemed to have gotten the better end of that deal.

I know my lore and Scarlet didn’t break anything!

The Krait in Gw 1 EOTN had not much known about them except they are xenophobic shapeshifters to be avoided. At least in gw 2 we know about their history a bit and their motives for being so xenophobic and xenocidal. Scarlet just added more fuel to their fire. They wanted to do this and become toxic, sScarlet didn’t force them. they could have not believed her and slain her. They are now more dangerous and more bloodthirsty! We did slay their new “promised prophet” after all!

Charr as we know have the most fleshing out of any enemy race in the game! Even the flame legion (also known mockingly as the gold legion), have gotten a new outlook to their ways and motives and a way to get back from the brink (COE dungeon) and we (the players) ruin it and kill baelfire not once, but twice!

What do they get from scarlet? Only time will tell, but the fused weapons and the fused metals provide a solid clue.

Remember the flame legion are very beaten back and rather primitive compared to the other 3 legions. They rely on magic mostly and need to steal materials or weapons in most events and encounters in Charr lands when we face them. Forming their so called “lore breaking” Alliance with dredge and Scarlet actually gave them the best chance at getting back at the other legions as now they have new metals to work with.

Grawl on the other hand, got the worst development so far… they seem smartyet primitive at the same time…

In gw 1, they were just these ape men that Charr thought were just worse than humans— or devolved humans at that!

The humans saw them as a nuisance species, especially in Ascalon in the pre-searing days, Stealing food livestock even weapons!

The Charr figured out if they could at least communicate with them they could align and use them for their own goals, which was evidences when Vatlaaw Doomtooth used them as a scouting force in Ashford Abby to cause a distraction while he got info on Ascalon forces in the area (if you ever played prophesies you’d know this.).

In EOTN, The Flame Charr tried to do this yet again, meeting with a Grawl chieftain to make an alliance to attack The Eye of the North, the base at the time for the Ebon Vanguard. You the player and Vael, the sort of eccentric Assassin (at least I thought he was), crash this little meeting and kill them all.

Cut to GW2 they seem just as primitive but now can speak a very noble form of new krytan and worship anything that moves or has magical power. They don’t trust any other smarter races though much anymore.

Scarlet doesn’t break any lore… she in a way helps the lesser enemy races… if she were to help the grawl what would she do? My money is on that she gives them a powerful yet dangerous construct for them to worship and unite all grawl against the other races. We all have to defeat it now!

The species to help the grawl (there always has to be an alliance)? Skritt! That’s right Skritt! The skritt could provide the smarts for the dumb grawl and their construct “god” and maintain it or make it stronger. The skritt have many possible enemies, Asura, (who treated them as experiment bait even before both species went to the surface after Primordius’ awakening.) Humans, (bandits did many mean things to them,even killing their king on occasion.) The pact too really uses them as expendable recon and infantry.

Scarlet obviously hates the pact, hates Queen Jennah, and hates any goody two shoe races that stand in her way. She uses nothing but second fiddle races or main race factions in her goals. They also benefit in a way from her tech.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I seem to be the only one that loves Scarlet. I explained why in many other threads, so I won’t do it here. I even understand more about what is going on then most of you; much to on the level of Konig here. I seriously think too many here have their heads in the sand and too human centrist on lore and are not really paying attention to the deep hidden nature of the storytelling in the game.

She doesn’t need to be retconned she needs to stay until a conclusion and people need to see that GW 2 is not about gods or anything in GW1 that was human-centric only. Its 250 years later people! Its not about humans anymore as much as you want it to be!

New enemies, new foes (ugh dragons cliche sucks imo) things I always wanted in GW 1 to happen: your enemies that seemed just mindless monsters (dredge/grawl/charr/krait/etc) are given a voice and roles in the world as much as or on par to us humans. They have their own agendas and actual societies different than our own.

Saying scarlet ruins the lore is to say all of gw 2, as a whole, ruined gw 1 lore with that sort of poisonous thinking going on here. As in the eyes of most players here, everything would be still humans and their gods and their enemies as mindless things to kill. Seems too many are still clinging on to Guild wars 1 of old.

The game devs should stick to its guns not listen to us at all (as we hardly know what we are talking about) and then focus on great lore options as follows, while building on holes in lore for the past 250 years that are relevant to now:

There’s so much wrong with this post, I can’t even… okay, just the most important points that must be addressed:

For the devs “plugging holes in lore:” I’d rather not let them do such. Prior to Scarlet and some of GW2’s questionable lore additions, there were very few lore & plot holes in the Guild Wars universe. The term you were looking for is “expanding on loose ends, continuing the threads (like the ones you listed) and weaving them into something marvelous.” Instead, we’ve gotten Scarlet, who’s a large enough lore and plot black hole on her own to destroy the core that made Guild Wars so awesome. Hence, the only hole that needs to be plugged – mercilessly and brutally – is Scarlet.

Also, given what we’ve seen so far, I have my doubts they could build on those “great lore options” in a meaningful and interesting way. See Thaumanova fractal for more reference (minus the Anomaly guy, who’s merely a side-character thanks to the grand and glorious Ms Villain Sue).

That’s you and your closed minded GW 1 mentality. If it was your way, we’d still be all humans in GW 2. It would be like the real world a bit; I kinda wish aliens were real and they’d visit our plant and turn the tables a bit. Seeing that will never happen… why in GW 2 should we stay to old GW 1 traditions as well?

Scarlet may not be the best character, but she at least did something for these races not even the Asura, Humans, Sylvari or non Flame Charr would ever do: prop them up a bit and upgrade their societies with her knowledge and tech know how.

Post this LS, we may see dredge with better weapons they had from F&F and new armor and whatnot featuring that new metal.

The Flame Charr would also have this metal.

Krait will remain toxic.

NC might keep their torment and confusion and hallucination skills and more.

what scarlet did not only changed the lore, she improved some of the races tech/abilties…

Atherbaldes (all races) and Inquest just stay the same mostly but humans in the Atherblades get loads of new tech only exclusive to Asura.

The idea from the Scarlet era of gw 2 in lore is the same as it was upon release. Not human-centirc anymore and everyone will be on an even playing field education, tech, and even magic-wise. Scarlet is furthering this idea.

Also, “This is my Story” motto in relation to every race’s individuals and as a whole forging their own paths— even Scarlet wanted to be on her own path not governed by dream or nightmare.

I say she fits very nicely in lore and gameplay if you look at that big picture.

(I was going to say more… but I lost my train of thought.)

The problem there, Yumiko, is that, to use your terminology, Scarlet has stolen the voices of those factions that fall under her shadow.

The Flame Legion is dying in the Steamspur Mountains. How does that further their attempts to control the charr race?

The dredge are yielding up their lives to a surfacer who couldn’t care less if they lived or died. How does that fit with the generations of cultural paranoia of outside enslavement?

All those benefits you’ve listed? Every one is already acquired. Why then do any of them continue to serve, when doing such can only cost them without any future gain? The only argument that can be made is that they have confidence Scarlet will vanquish all; yet how can they, when clearly only Scarlet knows her endgame, and every ploy she’s made has turned into a costly defeat for her allies?

You’re right that this game is about characters making their own stories- but Scarlet in writing hers erases all others.

THAT is why Thalador calls her a black hole- all that come into her sway are sucked in to her ego and never leave.

They don’t even appear physically in ToN, they are all shadowy copy-models as if they are hallucinations or toxic shadows if the real deal.

They were left to their own devices right after that alliances defeat. For all we know the Flame Charr and Shiverpeak dredge could be doing their thing in places we have not visited yet. Charr homelands of EotN in gw 2 and possibly dredge in a continent we haven’t even explored yet and even Cantha. Right now the dredge could be licking their wounds with a new leader and their knew tech knowledge and saying never again in terms of scarlet.

It is already well known that dredge are all over the world. Their tunnels reach all across Tyria (planet) not just the continent. Scarlet only subjugated only a small subset of dredge and they were Shiverpeak dredge, the same exact dredge that were under dwarven rule 250 years prior.

The Charr and dredge basically saw an opportunity given my Scarlet’s silver tongue and gambled and ultimately lost but were not destroyed entirely.

Everywhere F&F occurred is post F&F state not not back to launch of game state. We still fight these dredge, yet because of the way mechanics are presented and the way the game is structured event and passage of time wise the game has us in three states of time: Game launch F&f and post F&F. Who’s to say we are not fighting all versions of dredge now at the same time?

You’re forgetting Scarlet’s invasions, which are STILL ongoing.

Scralet’s invasions lore wise were officially ended when that LS part ended. Its just something for players to do until her arc ends Anet even said this at one point (wish I could find it though).

Even if that were the case, it undermines your point. Months after they’d gotten what they were going to out of her, they were still throwing away their lives in the cause of… causing mayhem? Sorry, not buying it.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Scralet’s invasions lore wise were officially ended when that LS part ended. Its just something for players to do until her arc ends Anet even said this at one point (wish I could find it though).

I’m going to have to ask you for a source on this because the comment I heard was that they’ll simply keep going until Scarlet’s arc ends – I’ve never seen a mention that “lore wise they stopped.” Especially since:

“Since her attack on Queen Jennah’s Jubilee, Scarlet Briar and her minions have wreaked havoc across Tyria. She’d dangerously adept at engineering monstrous devices and villainous alliances both. "

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Priory_Arcanist_Dolja

She’s stating that the attacks have been happening since the Jubilee – heavy implication of present tense. Based on this sole acknowledgment of the invasions since the jubilee content, I’d say that the invasions continuing afterward are indeed a part of lore.

So again, I’d have to ask for your dev statement that they stopped storywise, since there’d be a conflict between developer statement and NPC dialogue.