Guild Wars 2

in order for the conclusion of the Living Story to be a hit?

I think you can still have a climactic ending without the need of someone dying.

Plus, isn’t that what we all expect? For someone to die. I know Anet is all about being creative and surprising us, and that would not surprise me if it happened, because I am already expecting it to happen.

Well, I think someone needs to die – but that someone needs to be Scarlet.

I’m going to bring in an external example – Avatar the Last Airbender. Nobody reallly important dies in the final episode, but you have a psychotic girl (Azula) who has a mental breakdown and tries to kill her brother – and it makes for a really emotional and well done scene. So definitely nobody has to die, they just have to come up with something good and compelling – and I think they can do that with Scarlet.

Yes, Scary (that is Scarlet for you fellow loremasters) will most likely die. That or she joins Destiny’s Child 2.0.
If you meant from the current cast, I find it plausible that Taimi’s polio progresses to a lethal stage and she will pass away shortly before the big encounter against Scary to make the heroes’ revenge that much sweeter.

The only one who needs to die in this story is Scarlet, even though I am pretty sure she will have a half-redemption before that happens.

Yeah, I can see them going along the lines of ‘she was consumed by whatever was manipulating her blah blah blah went insane blah blah didn’t know what she was doing’.
Which is ok, as long as they don’t try and redeem her fully.

I still have hope that the foreshadowed character death(s) are only red herrings and Destiny’s Edge 2.0 will never come to be.
Hopefully Braham and Roxx/Taimi will stay as a duo, just as Marjory and Kas, and Canach will reclaim his title as a freaking bada!ss !

They don’t have to die, but for some weird reason, some writers think that’s the only way to get a deep emotional impact from the reader/player. Over reliance on such a thing, can lead to a jaded fan base.

As other people have said, Scarlet is probably going to die soon, and while I’m not hoping for a “redemption” per say; I kinda hope she’ll explain her motives what at the end. Maybe not in the “Evil Overlord Monologue”-style, but more like dropping little tidbits of info the players can connect the dots with during the final battle.

Though with the mental clash between Scarlet and whatever during hologram entries, I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Entity” fully takes over during the final moments.

It doesn’t seem reasonable for any of the members of Destiny’s Orphans to die so soon. I’m thinking that at the end of the current arc Scarlet will awaken whatever dragon/force she has been poking for a while, and that creature’s surge of power might overcome her feeble remaining mental barriers, rendering her a vegetable (oh the puns) or pretty much killing her. Basically Scarlet would not be the real enemy, but merely the catalyst for its awakening. Something on the line of ‘oh poor her, after all she was being controlled and manipulated, and she actually was a good character’ ( or her motives were harsh but the ends perfectly justified the means). She’d be Tyria’s Snape.

It seems to me that the the end of the current living story arc will mark the awakening of a bigger deadlier enemy, which DE 2.0/Destiny’s Orphans will have to come together and fight. Maybe one or some of them will die in the future, but it just doesn’t seem plausible to get rid of them in a stage where the public still hasn’t grown to fully know them yet.

Scarlet will die, I am 100% convinced she will. It’s predictable that way, and I think the devs even outright stated something along those lines.

The real question is, will she redeem herself near the end?

^Another question would be, do the devs draw a line between Ceara and Scarlet? Meaning that maybe Scarlet will die but Ceara lives on? We’ll see.

Jelle.4623:

^Another question would be, do the devs draw a line between Ceara and Scarlet? Meaning that maybe Scarlet will die but Ceara lives on? We’ll see.

Ceara was/is still a psychopath though.

She only cared for herself, had zero empathy towards others, only saw them as tools for increasing her own knowledge, had no respect for any sort of boundaries (whether they be physical, magical, ethical, or moral) when it came to expanding her knowledge.

There isn’t much difference, if any, between the personalities of Ceara and Scarlet.

I disagree. From what I understood from the short-story “What Scarlet Saw”, Ceara was simply naturally curious. She was defiant against any sort of authority, and seemed very self centered. But I didn’t read any psychopathic tendencies in her character, until she transformed into Scarlet Briar.

Psychopaths aren’t always violent, she only seem to have gotten that trait after she “became” Scarlet.

Though for the literal definition…

psy·cho·path [sahy-kuh-path]
noun
a person with a psychopathic personality, which manifests as amoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc.

Which almost describes her to a T.

I disagree. The Ceara as portrayed in the short story did not come across as amoral. However, she was very self-centered, and anti-social. But that does not make someone a psychopath. That makes her reclusive and anarchistic (which plenty of people are).

Jelle.4623:

^Another question would be, do the devs draw a line between Ceara and Scarlet? Meaning that maybe Scarlet will die but Ceara lives on? We’ll see.

I like this.

And keeping Ceara around would make for an amusing story line for Taimi. Since she looks up to her so much, working side by side with her could make for some interesting dialog between the two.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I disagree. The Ceara as portrayed in the short story did not come across as amoral. However, she was very self-centered, and anti-social. But that does not make someone a psychopath. That makes her reclusive and anarchistic (which plenty of people are).

Plenty of people are also psychopaths as well, but that doesn’t make them necessarily dangerous or a threat to the society, because not all of them are violent. Ceara is a different matter though…

She has shown zero empathy towards others. Which doesn’t make her dangerous, but combined with her thirst for knowledge; it was shown she will go to extremes without any regards for how it might effect others. She joined the Inquest, willingly to expand her knowledge on the different subjects. They’re almost the basic definition of amoral in Tyria at the moment.

Ceara’s time with the Inquest was brief but extremely productive: they taught her things the other colleges wouldn’t even discuss, and allowed field tests without those irritating and unnecessary safety precautions.

People learn through studying the matter and participation, and they taught her things the other colleges wanted nothing to do with. For the Inquest, that usually involves the amoral experiments they do to different races, and she participated in them.

Erukk.1408:

She joined the Inquest, willingly to expand her knowledge on the different subjects. They’re almost the basic definition of amoral in Tyria at the moment.

Keep in mind that the Asura showed a lot of unwillingness to let her study, and actively worked against her. The reason Ceara sought out the Inquest, was to be rid of the restrictions imposed by Asura society. She didn’t join the Inquest specifically to do amoral things. She cared for the science, and not their ideology it seems.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

She cared for the science, and not their ideology it seems.

Not their ideology? She seemed very much at home with the complete disregard towards the safety and lives of others. What with them allowing those “field tests without those irritating and unnecessary safety precautions.”

Even if we don’t kill Scarlet and Ceara lives on, I think she is past any redemption. I mean after all the kitten she has done the only path left for her is to rot in some jail cell or at the far end of our swords.

Erukk.1408:

Not their ideology? She seemed very much at home with the complete disregard towards the safety and lives of others. What with them allowing those “field tests without those irritating and unnecessary safety precautions.”

What she wanted to do I think, was expand the borders of science. The lack of safety precautions weren’t the reason she joined the Inquest, it was the freedom. The Asura actively prevented her from doing her research. But the Inquest gave her the freedom to explore what she wanted. That the research was dangerous, does not make her acts evil.

Pretty sure Ceara was a high-functioning sociopath, as described. She wasn’t actually crazy, though. At any rate, I don’t think redemption is in the cards for her. At best, fully understanding her might earn her a little of the pity that she would be incapable of showing for others.

The Asuran society put up certain restrictions for a reason though, because expanding the borders of science is all well and good, but if it comes at the cost of others, specially other intelligent beings, it could be considered evil or amoral.

Even after the Arcane Council rejected her work, she still had the support of Headmaster Omadd. The work might have taken a bit longer to do, but she would have still been able to continue it with his support. She didn’t even care about the Arcane Council’s opinion in the end, but she still decided to join the Inquest. They could teach her new things, uncaring in how they came to be, but most importantly is because they provided fast results.

I like Teyo. More importantly, I need to advance my theories quickly. And nobody’s better at quick results that the Inquest.

If she wanted freedom, she could have just left to continue on her own, but she wanted results more than she wanted freedom. The Inquest can provide said result quickly through their less than caring practices.

On a humorous sidenote…

Mixing potions, poisons, and elixirs to produce specific effects was similar to building devices, but there was too much horticulture and not enough engineering for her tastes. If she wanted to spend her life harvesting pollen or distilling extracts from exotic blooms, she would have never left the Grove.

Tower of Nightmares anyone? I guess we know why she left it up to the NC, Krait, and Marjory to do all the heavy lifting now. If she wanted to work with plants, she would have stayed in the Grove.

scarlet’s death will be of her own doing. that’s my bet. we’ll still try to kill her, but she’ll accidentally kill herself first.

Erukk.1408:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I disagree. The Ceara as portrayed in the short story did not come across as amoral. However, she was very self-centered, and anti-social. But that does not make someone a psychopath. That makes her reclusive and anarchistic (which plenty of people are).

Plenty of people are also psychopaths as well, but that doesn’t make them necessarily dangerous or a threat to the society, because not all of them are violent. Ceara is a different matter though…

She has shown zero empathy towards others. Which doesn’t make her dangerous, but combined with her thirst for knowledge; it was shown she will go to extremes without any regards for how it might effect others. She joined the Inquest, willingly to expand her knowledge on the different subjects. They’re almost the basic definition of amoral in Tyria at the moment.

Ceara’s time with the Inquest was brief but extremely productive: they taught her things the other colleges wouldn’t even discuss, and allowed field tests without those irritating and unnecessary safety precautions.

People learn through studying the matter and participation, and they taught her things the other colleges wanted nothing to do with. For the Inquest, that usually involves the amoral experiments they do to different races, and she participated in them.

It’d be a step forward for games as a artistic platform if they could write a believable psychopatic character that isn’t “evil”.

“Death….good.”

I think this really depends on how it’s handled. They mentioned a loooong time ago that people will die (I can’t find this interview anymore, though), but it has to be a satisfying death for me to accept it. They’ve faced a bunch of clockwork, Aetherblades, and other hardships for months and if one of them dies from a random Molten Alliance member shoving a sword through them, I’ll be a bit disappointed.

I hope if someone dies that it’s handled through their artistic cut-scenes, too. I find it difficult to really emotionally connect with an animated sword swing and then a collapsed body animation.

But my basic point is, the death has to make sense for me to really connect with it. Killing someone for the sake of making it ‘sad’ isn’t going to really hit me.

I’m certain Scarlet will get killed or written out somehow. I think she’s gone far past the point of saving or going sane.

CharrGirl.7896:

Even if we don’t kill Scarlet and Ceara lives on, I think she is past any redemption. I mean after all the kitten she has done the only path left for her is to rot in some jail cell or at the far end of our swords.

I disagree. I’m personally seeing a close resemblance to Saint Alia Atreides, of Dune. I very much disliked her near the end, then her old personality came out a killed itself in order to prevent the personality of Baron Harkonnen winning control. She was very much redeemed at the end.

Narcemus.1348:

CharrGirl.7896:

Even if we don’t kill Scarlet and Ceara lives on, I think she is past any redemption. I mean after all the kitten she has done the only path left for her is to rot in some jail cell or at the far end of our swords.

I disagree. I’m personally seeing a close resemblance to Saint Alia Atreides, of Dune. I very much disliked her near the end, then her old personality came out a killed itself in order to prevent the personality of Baron Harkonnen winning control. She was very much redeemed at the end.

except scarlet’s “old personality” was just as much of an egocentric megalomaniac prick.

But not a mass murdering egocentric prick. I said it’s possible, not that it was what was going to happen. I mean for Alia, they had to take her all the way back to being a naive child for the redemption, who is to say that they couldn’t revert Scarlet back to a naive curious Ceara who regrets her actions.

Narcemus.1348:

But not a mass murdering egocentric prick. I said it’s possible, not that it was what was going to happen. I mean for Alia, they had to take her all the way back to being a naive child for the redemption, who is to say that they couldn’t revert Scarlet back to a naive curious Ceara who regrets her actions.

because ceara showed the same disregard for life (see: joining the inquest). chances are the only reason she wouldn’t have done what scarlet did would be because she had no reason to.

Narcemus.1348:

CharrGirl.7896:

Even if we don’t kill Scarlet and Ceara lives on, I think she is past any redemption. I mean after all the kitten she has done the only path left for her is to rot in some jail cell or at the far end of our swords.

I disagree. I’m personally seeing a close resemblance to Saint Alia Atreides, of Dune. I very much disliked her near the end, then her old personality came out a killed itself in order to prevent the personality of Baron Harkonnen winning control. She was very much redeemed at the end.

While I can see the resemblance, in the crescent internal struggle between Ceara/Whatever is there, it seems to me that Scarlet has lost the fight long ago, probably since the time she came out of Omadd’s machine. While Alia gradually loses control over time, Scarlet’s plans are cirurgical and carefully planned. Doesn’t seem consistent with an erratic and seemingly random personality. If that were so, we would have seen the flaws in Scarlet’s grand design, and so far, everything seems to be according to her plan.

JackDaniels.1697:

in order for the conclusion of the Living Story to be a hit?

I think you can still have a climactic ending without the need of someone dying.

Plus, isn’t that what we all expect? For someone to die. I know Anet is all about being creative and surprising us, and that would not surprise me if it happened, because I am already expecting it to happen.

I don’t think someone needs to die, and I don’t think someone should die (seriously, grow up, folkz), but we already know that someone WILL die since this has already been revealed by Angel McCoy during the year one anniversary bash panel.

Personally I think (unfounded speculation ahead)Ellen Kiel will die bravely while defending the city that put so much trust in her, and Evon Gnashblade (who will eventually be revealed as the mysterious 'E' benefactor of the heroes) will succeed in her position. Meanwhile, Scarlet will not die but get seriously transformed and will return as a Mega Boss event in some of the new upcoming maps. But this is just me pulling ideas out of my kitten, so take this as the speculation it is.

~MRA

MRA.4758:

I don’t think someone needs to die, and I don’t think someone should die (seriously, grow up, folkz), but we already know that someone WILL die since this has already been revealed by Angel McCoy during the year one anniversary bash panel.

She did mention Scarlet in that list before she talked about “character deaths,” so that could be all she meant. Because Scarlet is almost certainly going to die at the end of this story. Anything else would feel unsatisfying.

Well even though 99% of the playerbase hates her/dislikes how her story has been told; the only thing I can think of when it comes to killing Scarlet is that it would be such a waste. A waste of her genius. That’s partly why I mentioned that maybe even though Scarlet dies, Ceara will live on, cleansed from what ever entity possesed her. Her knowledge might be useful against the Elder Dragons and even if not, we don’t know what possesed her. A next story might be that the entity will strike against Tyria while we are/have been distracted by other things.

Another games strikes my mind while typing this, in Fable III about 50% of the game is about getting your tyrant brother off the throne, only after you have succeeded you learn that he had knowledge of an evil that was coming to invade Albion.

If you compare stories it is not all that different, we try to get Scarlet of her throne while she has been busy collecting manpower and technology.

Who knowsssss

/random theorycraft moment off

JackDaniels.1697:

in order for the conclusion of the Living Story to be a hit?

I think you can still have a climactic ending without the need of someone dying.

Plus, isn’t that what we all expect? For someone to die. I know Anet is all about being creative and surprising us, and that would not surprise me if it happened, because I am already expecting it to happen.

I expect none of the protagonists to die, certainly not Kasmeer. So much of that hype seems to be based on what I see as a misinterpretation of “noble woman trying to fit in with hardened adventurers”. People see the story respect that background and they think it’s foreshadowing her death as opposed to exploring her journey to becoming a valued member of the group. I think the writers like Marjory and Kasmeer too much to kill them.

Another reason the “death card” red light keeps going off for people is the writers are trying too hard to make these characters sympathetic. Kasmeer’s sob story, Taimi’s illness, those are cheap tricks writers use to make the audience bond with a character they want to kill. They don’t want the death to surprise you, they want the death to have an emotional impact so they position the audience to like them.

A surprising death for this story wouldn’t be to kill Marjory, Kasmeer or Taimi, it would be to kill Logan. Why? Because we aren’t positioned to like him, he’s bad at his job during the Queen’s Jubilee and in all of his scenes with Taimi the writers threw him under the bus so they could leverage the audience’s dislike of him into like for Taimi. Compare how his portrayal with Taimi is to the way Braham’s portrayal with Taimi. The goal was to make Braham and Taimi bond, Logan was used as a tool for that purpose. The Living Story doesn’t try to get us to like Logan, it uses him as a tool to get us to like the other characters. Killing Logan would be a surprise.

Another reason I believe people expect or want a death from the story is that would justify in their eyes all the prominence given to Kasmer and Marjory’s relationship. So far it’s been extraneous to the core story and hasn’t really led to anything. Imagine Lord of the Rings with two random characters – that’s what Marjory and Kasmeer are – and their love story plopped in the middle of it. You’re reading about the fight between the treants and Saruman then all of a sudden you get brought back to random love story. People think it might be a set up for a death, to justify all the time they spent focusing on it.

Finally, I think players want a real consequence from this story to justify the build up. We will probably get something physical – a new map, dramatic changes to existing maps, destruction of a well known environment or place, maybe the introduction of a new character, but will be get an emotional consequence? Something players can emotively connect to? Scarlet is supposed to be a personal nemesis but very little about the story feels personal. We are interested in these events because it’s new content and it’s a threat to Tyria but we aren’t emotionally invested. A character death makes it personal.

Yeah but just because someone has knowledge doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to let them walk around.

I mean, lest we forget that it was US who unleashed Palawa Joko back on Elona and pretty much kitten ed them all. You can argue that Abaddon was a bigger threat, but I would say that the people still alive in Elona might disagree.

I never said anything about letting her walk around ;P.

Joko crossed my mind by the way, being that entity, but I don’t think necromancers have access to that kind of power even if they are as powerful and experienced as Joko. Then again, I don’t think anyone knows the full depths of his power and if bloodstones really are weakened as I’ve read in another topic it might be possible that he is extending his powers. Of course, it’s highly unlikely since Joko is in Elona and I’m almost certain that we won’t go there for the next couple of years.

Jelle.4623:

I never said anything about letting her walk around ;P.

Joko crossed my mind by the way, being that entity, but I don’t think necromancers have access to that kind of power even if they are as powerful and experienced as Joko. Then again, I don’t think anyone knows the full depths of his power and if bloodstones really are weakened as I’ve read in another topic it might be possible that he is extending his powers. Of course, it’s highly unlikely since Joko is in Elona and I’m almost certain that we won’t go there for the next couple of years.

Oh I wasn’t suggesting he was behind this.
I’m just saying that during Nightfall we set him free because he had knowledge that could help us – and it turned out pretty badly for Elona.

So all I was saying is that an evil person might have knowledge you need, but it comes at a pretty high risk.

Neither was I, just expressing a thought that crossed my mind a few days ago. At the other hand, is it really that bad? Joko has armies and huge ones at that too. Of course, people are being oppressed if there are indeed any alive, but he has been fighting Zhaitan in the Crystal Desert and I think he would be doing a better job defending Elona then the Sunspears would have done.

After all ‘you never know what would have happened’.

*we are extremely off topic

Uhhh, is it back on topic if I say that Joko needs to die xD?

But I would say it’s pretty bad… He hasn’t exactly been treating people nicely. People had been fleeing Elona so that doesn’t really sounds so great xD. He would only be fighting the dragons because they pose a threat to ‘his’ land and his undead hordes.

Think about it this way; one of the reasons we were able to defeat Zhaitan was by cutting off his supply of new Risen.

If Elona was defended by Sunspears/humans instead of Palawa Joko with a huge undead army, Zhaitan might have been able to conquer it and in doing so he would have loads of fresh Risen troops and we wouldn’t have been able to do a thing about it.

I don’t think we know enough to say that – for all we know Zhaitan had the ability to take over Joko’s minions, considering they are corpses.

Shiren.9532:

A surprising death for this story wouldn’t be to kill Marjory, Kasmeer or Taimi, it would be to kill Logan.

This would truly be a surprise, and I also assume it will never happen.

Every day new players start playing the game, and Logan may be part of their personal storyline. Killing him in the Living World would create an inconsistency of their experience with the experience of everybody else which I don’t assume ANet willing to create. In fact, I understand the creation of the ‘biconics’ as an opportunity to have characters that may die, evolve, or whatever without harming the personal story or other existing content in the game.

So, unless some there is some technique to resolve PS/LW/dungeon path inconsistencies I’d say the members of DE, Queen Jenna, Lord Faren, and many many more characters are pretty much bullet proof.

~MRA

Here is the sad part: The few characters in the story who formed emotional bounded with the players are already dead.

Joko, I think, was a calculated risk, and as it turned out, it paid off. While pretty kitteny for Elona, the alternative was basically the whole of Tyria being swallowed by a literal hell dimension. It was the lesser evil, and unfortunately we didn’t get to see the leadup to Joko’s second invasion – it could have been that the Sunspears had done what should have been a good enough job to contain him afterwards, but some collosal kittenup that our characters could not have predicted sabotaged that.

On whether Tyria was better off for Joko claiming Elona… I think “we don’t know what might have happened” definitely applies here. The Order of Whispers would probably have been a lot stronger if Elona was still under (living) human control, and the Sunspears had a lot in common with the Vigil while being more tied in to Elona’s political structure and having a history of working hand in hand with the Order of Whispers – Elona’s survival could have lead to the formation of something like the Pact a lot earlier.

On the other hand, though, however Joko is keeping his army from falling under Zhaitan’s control (might just be as simple as distance), if he wasn’t there, Zhaitan might have been able to claim the remnants of his army. On the gripping hand, if Joko was still in the Desolation but hadn’t conquered Elona, he would still serve as a buffer… and he isn’t shy about pitting those who might otherwise be his enemies against a greater evil that poses a bigger threat.

Shiren.9532:

Imagine Lord of the Rings with two random characters – that’s what Marjory and Kasmeer are – and their love story plopped in the middle of it. You’re reading about the fight between the treants and Saruman then all of a sudden you get brought back to random love story. People think it might be a set up for a death, to justify all the time they spent focusing on it.

coughhobbitpt2cough

KILL TRAHEARNE, please for the love of the 6 gods and eternal blah blah kill him!

Even if Scarlet dies, the A.I. Hologram Scarlet will never be permanently destroyed. Scarlet = Skynet

Scarlet must die die die, die die die, die die.

Duh, obviousy Bloomanoo and Peneloopee will die.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Duh, obviousy Bloomanoo and Peneloopee will die.

2 down, far too many to go.

Execute Quaggan Extinction Plan A.

So, it seems that dataminers have dug up story spoilers for the end of the Living Story. I won’t go into any of it here, but let’s just say that I look forward to discussing the implications and consequences with you all once the patch goes live.