Guild Wars 2

If the story ends up with having the revived mursaat being a good guy, I’m going to freak out…
I can stand having the charr on the good side because not all of them were evil…it was war …bla bla… and they are cool..
But please…..please Anet…don’t make him good, not even a little bit…mursaat are evil and twisted beings…I can’t stand to one of them being redeemed and becoming bbf with the player character…

Just to make sure, you do know that most of their actions were taken to safeguard the world from the return of the titans by keeping the Door of Komali shut right? As the players back in GW1 we kinda screwed the pooch on that one and then had to fix it again in Nightfall.

Different strokes, I guess. I’m a sucker for a good redemption story personally. And considering his entire race was exterminated, it doesn’t seem unreasonable that something like that would make you reconsider a few things.

There’s probably a middle ground they can hit too, where they make him changed to a degree but not necessarily a “good guy”.

Humans have a BIG thing against the mursaat, remember the Saul incident?

He won’t get an easy ride.

Zilong.1407:

Just to make sure, you do know that most of their actions were taken to safeguard the world from the return of the titans by keeping the Door of Komali shut right? As the players back in GW1 we kinda screwed the pooch on that one and then had to fix it again in Nightfall.

Well, the Mursaat were scared that the titans would kill them all…so they guarded the only thing that was important to them…hemselves…

Also in the tablets in ember bay they are always saying that they want to rule the world….

No middle ground for me… I’m a little sich of how some parts of the lore have been treated lately…al being a beautiful world where everything is wonderful, friendship and stuff like that….wth! there are dragons destroying the existing world…

Zilong.1407:

Just to make sure, you do know that most of their actions were taken to safeguard the world from the return of the titans by keeping the Door of Komali shut right? As the players back in GW1 we kinda screwed the pooch on that one and then had to fix it again in Nightfall.

This is definitely true. But, at the same time, it was largely done for their own sense of self-preservation rather than because it was the right thing to do. The Mursaat were pretty immoral when it came to how they kept the door shut, too. They didn’t care how many lesser beings they killed off, as long as it kept the titans from overrunning Tyria. However, that doesn’t mean that one Mursaat couldn’t have actually changed his ways, of course.

I don’t believe for a moment that he has any “good” intention.

At the very least, he needs our help to fight the dragons, so that he can then move forward with his plan to wipe us out (which he can’t do with the dragons in the way).

Sarevok.2638:

Humans have a BIG thing against the mursaat, remember the Saul incident?

Krytans, specifically. Ask a citizen of Ebonhawke however, and you will likely find they’d rather trust a Mursaat than a Charr.
And Sylvari, Norns and Asurans are unlikely to have any strong prejudices at all. It’s not like Mursaat ever done anything to them, after all.

Still, to answer the OP: Where exactly did you seem him behaving like a good guy? Because i sure didn’t. What i see is him pulling a second Saul D’Alessio case, because it (specifically: killing elder dragons) is in his interests. Granted, he doesn’t need to keep the Doors of Komalie shut this time, so he may not need any more blood sacrifices, but it doesn’t mean he won’t cross us over at the first opportunity as soon as it will suit his neeeds.

TL/DR: i don’t see a good guy here. I just see a very pragmatic (and charismatic) villain that doesn’t resort to violence as his first conversation option.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Without the Mursaat doing what they did the Charr would probably have driven the humans in Kryta to extinction.

They may have done it to save themselves but their information came from the Flameseeker Prophecies. As Glint knew what was going to happen you could say it was all her fault.

Then who can you trust in this game? The only reason the Charr aren’t still trying to wipe out the humans is the dragons. Are the Norn any more trustworthy than the greedy and self centred Asura?

Might remnants of Mordremoth still be carried by Sylvari? Perhaps he still exists or perhaps he was set up by the Pale Tree?

There have been many instances of someone changing ideals and altering their world. This might be one, or it might be another stab in the back turncoat. We will just have to wait to find out.

Sarevok.2638:

Humans have a BIG thing against the mursaat, remember the Saul incident?

He won’t get an easy ride.

Ya know, I often wondered where they took him. He was there, they offered help, he took it, they took their payment for their services. I always wonder where they shoved him.

X T D.6458:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This. We really can’t use a war with Lazarus right now, we have bigger fish to fry.

More importantly, Lazarus can’t use a war against anything other than dragons. He hates the current races (especially humans and probably Asura) but is probably terrified of dragons. Revenge can come later.

I don’t want a war with Lazarus at all. An uneasy alliance is far more interesting than an open war. And having him around gives us access to all kind of mursaat story possibilities, exploring their lore, their cities or whatever. Don’t make him a goodie or a baddie, but a little of both.

Cough…Palawa Joko…Cough…

Zilong.1407:

Just to make sure, you do know that most of their actions were taken to safeguard the world from the return of the titans by keeping the Door of Komali shut right? As the players back in GW1 we kinda screwed the pooch on that one and then had to fix it again in Nightfall.

False.

Their actions were taken to safeguard THEMSELVES and only themselves.

Until Episode 2, there was never, ever, any indication that the mursaat cared about anyone but themselves.

And we fixed in the final mission and post-story quests (dubbed the titan quests). Nightfall had nothing to do with cleaning up the mess made in Prophecies, though we find out that Khilbron and the titans were tied to Abaddon and that we, in fixing our mess in Prophecies, inadvertently slowed Abaddon’s plans.

X T D.6458:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of my enemy is also my enemy. Who just might be a temporary ally to fight the bigger threat… until they become the bigger threat via deception that is the mursaat MO.

Same thing we did with Joko. Except for one thing…

X T D.6458:

Cough…Palawa Joko…Cough…

Joko never even pretended to be our permanent ally. He saw us as useful tools, we saw him as a necessary evil.

There was no redemption. Not even deception. Everyone knew exactly where things stood.

Sarevok.2638:

Humans have a BIG thing against the mursaat, remember the Saul incident?

He won’t get an easy ride.

If one race is going to compromise the safety of the world, especially one as capricous and fragmented as humanity, the better off the world will be just, well, offing them, and letting Skritt or Grawl take their place. Also -humans have NO room to complain about other races being genocidal toward them, given their modus operandi to the rest of the world (Prior to the Charr and Centaur getting sick of their kitten and fighting back)

The Mursaat were doing what they thought was best for the survival of their own race and the world – They ‘betrayed’ the first alliance because the Forgotton were demanding a Stupid Plan. Then they were cruel to the new vermin populating the world when they came back to save the world from destruction at the hands of the Titans.

Just to be clear, the mursaat have always been the anti-heroes. even though for selfish reasons, they wanted to save the world, and thought that the sacrifice of one species was worth. They live and breath the credo of “extreme conditions require extreme measures”

Except that they weren’t anti-heroes.

They were always villains.

They weren’t out to save the world. They were out to save themselves. And sacrificed thousands while manipulating leadership of one species and committed genocide of another species.

Then Episode 2 came, which redacted “they betrayed the others” into “they were betrayed” with questions raised.

I wouldn’t go that far. We could go back and forth on whether sacrificing thousands of people to hold closed the Door of Komalie was justifiable, but they continued sacrificing innocent Chosen on the bloodstones for years after the Flameseeker Prophecies had come to a conclusion. That’s not a good thing. That’s not even an anti-hero thing. That’s a villain thing.

However, just because they’ve been the villains doesn’t mean they can’t be more complicated rather than being doomed to be cliche moustache-twirlers forevermore. Look at the charr, for instance. Granted, in Lazarus’ case there is the added doubt that it’s not some future generation being judged by the sins of their fathers but that it’s one of Optimus Caliph’s associates and partially responsible for what the White Mantle was made into in the first place… however, people can change.

The question is… has Lazarus changed? Or is our enemy’s enemy nothing more than our enemy’s enemy, who may be useful, but who is certainly not our friend?

Which is one of the things that makes this story interesting. We knew, as soon as Khilbron appeared in Prophecies, that he was up to no good even if our characters didn’t (I did, anyway – it was hard to swallow that the Vizier who caused the Cataclysm could have come out of that unscathed and a force for good, and since we’d been shown an Orrian Lich Lord previously, well..). Likewise, as Konig pointed out, Joko made no bones (har har) that we were finding each other useful against a common enemy. Lazarus… isn’t obvious. I’ll admit that if I had to guess I’d predict that we’ll get stabbed in the back by him eventually, either ingame or between now and GW3, but it is at least plausible that ArenaNet is going for a redemption arc.

And the only way we’ll know for sure is that Lazarus is genuine is comes to a tragic end.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Then Episode 2 came, which redacted “they betrayed the others” into “they were betrayed” with questions raised.

Episode 2 hasn’t definitively said that the mursaat were betrayed, it just has the mursaat claim they were betrayed. Lying about their history to cover up their crimes and make themselves seem the wronged party is entirely in keeping with what we’ve seen of the mursaat in the past.

Of course the present-day mursaat may well believe that what’s been written is true, assuming they’re not so long lived that those seen in GW1 had survived since the previous dragon rise.

This also wouldn’t be the first time we’ve seen conflicting histories like this, with the human and charr histories differing to each make it seem like the other race was the villain.

Stitch.1794:

Episode 2 hasn’t definitively said that the mursaat were betrayed, it just has the mursaat claim they were betrayed. Lying about their history to cover up their crimes and make themselves seem the wronged party is entirely in keeping with what we’ve seen of the mursaat in the past.

It… really isn’t.

Because we don’t know how the mursaat justified the sacrifice of the chosen, or the war with the Seers.

In GW1, the only dialogue we got from a mursaat was quite literally from Lazarus in EotN, and Optimus Caliph in the BMP. The former case is just tauntings and swearing of revenge. The latter is acting of pretending to being benevolent-at-unknown-cost gods.

Of course, this means it could fit them, but neither Lazarus nor Caliph ever actually lied about or justified anything. Caliph literally said “we will help you, but there will be a cost to our help and you must be prepared to pay it” without ever saying what that cost is (the death of all non-fanatic who saw them).

What little we have from the mursaat’s own mouths is non-full truths and nothing but. They never lied. They just weren’t clear in what they meant.

Stitch.1794:

This also wouldn’t be the first time we’ve seen conflicting histories like this, with the human and charr histories differing to each make it seem like the other race was the villain.

The thing is that there’s a huge conflict of known history in that the mursaat version is practically 100% different. Particularly around the actions of the Seers and dwarves (especially dwarves).

lets assume he’s the last mursaat, i dont think he be thinking of self preservation because no matter what hes kind is doom. now he cooperating with us but im sure he has hidden agenda on his own. ill compare him to little finger of game of thrones.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Stitch.1794:

Episode 2 hasn’t definitively said that the mursaat were betrayed, it just has the mursaat claim they were betrayed. Lying about their history to cover up their crimes and make themselves seem the wronged party is entirely in keeping with what we’ve seen of the mursaat in the past.

It… really isn’t.

Because we don’t know how the mursaat justified the sacrifice of the chosen, or the war with the Seers.

In GW1, the only dialogue we got from a mursaat was quite literally from Lazarus in EotN, and Optimus Caliph in the BMP. The former case is just tauntings and swearing of revenge. The latter is acting of pretending to being benevolent-at-unknown-cost gods.

Of course, this means it could fit them, but neither Lazarus nor Caliph ever actually lied about or justified anything. Caliph literally said “we will help you, but there will be a cost to our help and you must be prepared to pay it” without ever saying what that cost is (the death of all non-fanatic who saw them).

What little we have from the mursaat’s own mouths is non-full truths and nothing but. They never lied. They just weren’t clear in what they meant.

Stitch.1794:

This also wouldn’t be the first time we’ve seen conflicting histories like this, with the human and charr histories differing to each make it seem like the other race was the villain.

The thing is that there’s a huge conflict of known history in that the mursaat version is practically 100% different. Particularly around the actions of the Seers and dwarves (especially dwarves).

This would fit in with the “deception by omission” line you speak of, though.

From the mursaat viewpoint, they launched an attack on Zhaitan, the other races (except the Forgotten) failed to support them, the attack failed as a result. They view this as the other races abandoning them, and therefore they feel perfectly justified in abandoning the other races in turn.

The fact that the other races could well have had their hands full (the dwarves being busy fighting the Destroyers, for instance) is the other half of the truth that the mursaat have omitted. And in this case, it might not even be deliberate: it’s entirely possible, given what we’ve seen of their mentality, that they were so busy being wrapped up in themselves that they didn’t care to see just what the others were really doing.

There’s nothing contradictory in the idea that the mursaat and Forgotten launched a joint attack on Zhaitan. In fact, I believe it was mentioned that the mursaat were the best fighters against the dragons before they bugged out, which is entirely in line with them launching an offensive.

Drax, I’m pretty sure omission isn’t when you’re explicitly stating something that isn’t true (that the dwarves “hid in their fortresses”). If the mursaat never mentioned the dwarves, or merely said they didn’t fight Zhaitan, then I’d say a lie of omission – even if it was “they didn’t fight the Elder Dragons” it could be argued to be subjective truth of mursaat not knowing the dwarves fought Jormag’s and Primordus’ minions.

And no, the contradiction doesn’t lie in the mursaat and Forgotten launching a joint assault. If anything, that may be the singular piece of lore that doesn’t seem off from those tablets.

The precise line is “The jotun hid from the dragons, and the dwarves withdrew into their fortresses”

Note that tablets II-IV could all be, and likely are, referring to a single slice of time – specifically, the time during which the mursaat and Forgotten planned and executed an attack on Zhaitan. The dwarves and jotun may have fought beforehand, and may have fought afterwards, but the important thing is that at that time they weren’t taking part in offensive operations. In the case of the dwarves, in fact, the term “withdrew” may itself indicate that they had been fighting and had been forced to retreat into fortifications.

Furthermore, in the case of the dwarves, withdrawing into their fortresses is emphatically not equivalent to not fighting at all, if those fortresses are being attacked by the minions of Jormag and Primordus – particularly if those fortresses formed a line of defences that protected the other races from attacks coming from that direction. The dwarves might well have been making the biggest contribution they could by holding the line there so that other races could focus on other fronts. The dwarves having withdrawn into their fortresses at one particular point in time is far from being inconsistent with what we knew previously – the half-truth that the mursaat aren’t admitting is that the dwarves were still playing an important role in the combined campaign even if it was, at that particular point in time, a defensive one.

(Regarding the jotun… it is curious that for a physically powerful and then (magi)technologically advanced race, we haven’t heard much about their contribution apart from an early warning system. Could just be gaps in history, but we can’t discount the possibility that they didn’t fight.)

One thing to consider, also, is that mursaat are, from what we’ve seen, universally spellcasters: every mursaat we’ve seen is able to cast spells and, therefore, able to fight. Now, we never saw a clearly female mursaat, which could mean anything from “cannot be easily distinguished like humans can” to “weren’t shown because ArenaNet didn’t assign the resources for more than one mursaat model, but were equivalent to the males in fighting ability” through to “noncombatants” or even “mursaat do not have the same genders that other races do”. It’s possible that the mursaat were a race that effectively had no noncombatants, and as a result they saw other races going defensive as cowardice when the truth was that the other races were concerned about protecting noncombatants and therefore couldn’t afford to throw everything they had into an offensive.

With the amount of arguing going on in this forum, with interesting evidence on both sides, I feel that the writers have done a good job creating a morally grey race.
Good job, writers! Keep at it!

There are a few facts that we need to consider with any race.
-We can’t judge the entire race as a whole and need to consider them individuals. Every race has its unfavorable groups: Inquest, Nightmare Court, Sons of Svanir, Flame Legion, White Mantle/Bandits. It is possible that the Mursaat had factions within their race as well.

-History is written by the winners. Take anything that one group says with a grain of salt. We can’t just blindly trust everything that the Forgotten told us as the absolute truth. They may have altered or even redacted parts of their history, and I wouldn’t put it past the Mursaat either. There will be things that both sides would rather forget.

-Pure evil and pure good have difficulty existing in dynamic characters. Characters can change. Sudden change is suspect, so I am wary of Lazarus, but it would be more interesting if he is a nuanced character that makes slip-ups, falls into old habits, and awkwardly tries to prove himself to those that slayed the dragons. If he is just manipulating us like others in the past, I’ll just call it a snooze fest, since we’ve already done that story.

We shouldn’t hope for Lazarus to be either a good or a bad character, but rather hope for him to be an interesting, deep, and dynamic character. Making him the bad guy or making him goody-two-shoes are the easy and lazy way of writing him. I want him to do good, but also say things that make our character argue with him. I want him to make a mistakes, raise our suspicion with a choice that is morally difficult, bond with some characters, but not get along with others.
The writers have already made interesting choices involving Lazarus and the Mursaat. It’s a good start, and I hope they keep it up.

Sartharina.3542:

Sarevok.2638:

Humans have a BIG thing against the mursaat, remember the Saul incident?

He won’t get an easy ride.

If one race is going to compromise the safety of the world, especially one as capricous and fragmented as humanity, the better off the world will be just, well, offing them, and letting Skritt or Grawl take their place. Also -humans have NO room to complain about other races being genocidal toward them, given their modus operandi to the rest of the world (Prior to the Charr and Centaur getting sick of their kitten and fighting back)

The Mursaat were doing what they thought was best for the survival of their own race and the world – They ‘betrayed’ the first alliance because the Forgotton were demanding a Stupid Plan. Then they were cruel to the new vermin populating the world when they came back to save the world from destruction at the hands of the Titans.

I think you forget that humanity is the race that saved the world a few times over in GW1. Not the other races.
If I had my way we’d have already offed the other races that aren’t the norn and built a new empire upon the ashes of their civilizations.

Ascalon Eternal!

DuskyInsanePoet.4218:

-History is written by the winners.

In this case, history was written by the survivors. No one won during the last dragon rise…

Harper.4173:

I think you forget that humanity is the race that saved the world a few times over in GW1. Not the other races.
If I had my way we’d have already offed the other races that aren’t the norn and built a new empire upon the ashes of their civilizations.

Ascalon Eternal!

I think you forget that the world was in need of saving because of humanity on most occasions.

Stitch.1794:

Harper.4173:

I think you forget that humanity is the race that saved the world a few times over in GW1. Not the other races.
If I had my way we’d have already offed the other races that aren’t the norn and built a new empire upon the ashes of their civilizations.

Ascalon Eternal!

I think you forget that the world was in need of saving because of humanity on most occasions.

I think you are mistaken.

Was humanity the reason The Great Destroyer nearly woke up 250 years ago?
Was humanity the reason Abbadon tried to unleash Nightfall?

Where exactly are these “most occasions” coming from? Did you even play the first game?

Harper.4173:

Stitch.1794:

Harper.4173:

I think you forget that humanity is the race that saved the world a few times over in GW1. Not the other races.
If I had my way we’d have already offed the other races that aren’t the norn and built a new empire upon the ashes of their civilizations.

Ascalon Eternal!

I think you forget that the world was in need of saving because of humanity on most occasions.

I think you are mistaken.

Was humanity the reason The Great Destroyer nearly woke up 250 years ago?
Was humanity the reason Abbadon tried to unleash Nightfall?

Where exactly are these “most occasions” coming from? Did you even play the first game?

The Great Destroyer is the exception, can’t blame humans for that one.

It was humans who released the titans (Khilbron aided by the PC), a human who caused the jade wind and affliction (Shiro), a human who started nightfall (Varesh) and a human who released Palawa Joko (PC).

draxynnic.3719:

The precise line is “The jotun hid from the dragons, and the dwarves withdrew into their fortresses”

The full line is:

The elder races could not agree on what to do. The jotun hid from the dragons, and the dwarves withdrew into their fortresses. The Seers stored magic for use after the dragons returned to sleep.

This shows two things:

First, every race took a different action. In turn, this means that the so-called alliance from every single other source is a fabrication should this be accurate.

Second, all three actions are defensive, rather than offensive, measures. And we were told the dwarves went on the offensive.

draxynnic.3719:

Note that tablets II-IV could all be, and likely are, referring to a single slice of time – specifically, the time during which the mursaat and Forgotten planned and executed an attack on Zhaitan.

Given the full line, I find this quite the stretch. These things all happening simultaneously is unlikely in the first place, and the whole sounds to me to be talking about the actions during the dragonrise in general.

Furthermore, in the case of the dwarves, withdrawing into their fortresses is emphatically not equivalent to not fighting at all, if those fortresses are being attacked by the minions of Jormag and Primordus – particularly if those fortresses formed a line of defences that protected the other races from attacks coming from that direction.

The entire set of tablets is about fighting the Elder Dragons and how the other three races refused to do such.

That’s a heavy implication that the dwarves, jotun, and seers never had major battles with any Elder Dragon or their minions.

DuskyInsanePoet.4218:

With the amount of arguing going on in this forum, with interesting evidence on both sides, I feel that the writers have done a good job creating a morally grey race.
Good job, writers! Keep at it!

They’re not a morally gray race. They’re a morally questionable race, because we simply no longer know. Originally painted to be black, now they’re painted to be white-turned-black. There’s no gray there.

We’re left wondering whether they were good or evil not because their actions and reasons are questionable, but because we don’t know what their actions actually were anymore.

And that is bad writing.

Stitch.1794:

The Great Destroyer is the exception, can’t blame humans for that one.

It was humans who released the titans (Khilbron aided by the PC), a human who caused the jade wind and affliction (Shiro), a human who started nightfall (Varesh) and a human who released Palawa Joko (PC).

So you don’t blame humanity for when Elder Dragons rise… but you blame humanity when an evil forgotten god rises?

Khilbron, Shiro, and Varesh may have been humans, but their actions were orchestrated by demons and, in turn by hierarchy, Abaddon.

Joko’s freedom was also caused by Nightfall – Abaddon’s pull for freedom from the Realm of Torment – not really humans. Nightfall might have been directly caused by Varesh, but she (like Shiro and Khilbron) was but a puppet on strings pulled by Abaddon.

That would be like blaming the Disc of Chaos for threatening the world, instead of Primordus.

Ya I wouldn’t worry too much about him becoming our friendly buddy. He didn’t swear revenge on humanity then return absorbing a bloodstones magic then burning down all non-mursaat-worshiping white mantle as demonstrations of good intentions. He is an out of touch bad guy with limited resources supported by a broken cult that is in hiding.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Stitch.1794:

The Great Destroyer is the exception, can’t blame humans for that one.

It was humans who released the titans (Khilbron aided by the PC), a human who caused the jade wind and affliction (Shiro), a human who started nightfall (Varesh) and a human who released Palawa Joko (PC).

So you don’t blame humanity for when Elder Dragons rise… but you blame humanity when an evil forgotten god rises?

Khilbron, Shiro, and Varesh may have been humans, but their actions were orchestrated by demons and, in turn by hierarchy, Abaddon.

Joko’s freedom was also caused by Nightfall – Abaddon’s pull for freedom from the Realm of Torment – not really humans. Nightfall might have been directly caused by Varesh, but she (like Shiro and Khilbron) was but a puppet on strings pulled by Abaddon.

Abbadon wasn’t able to threaten Tyria directly himself, he needed human agents to make his plans work. In two cases, he found willing accomplices (Khilbron and Varesh). In another he found someone selfish enough to allow himself to be duped into murdering a man he was sworn to protect, and then risk the lives of a whole continent to resurrect himself. None were forced into taking the actions they took. In every case, the humans involved acted of their own free will, and with Khilbron, Varesh, and Shiro (when he returned), they knew what the consequences would be and acted anyway.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That would be like blaming the Disc of Chaos for threatening the world, instead of Primordus.

I thought dragon minions had no will of their own? Whatever they do is the will of their dragon, and they are really are just puppets. All the blame has to go to the dragon.

We actually aren’t so sure Khilbron was willing. He was, after all, tricked by Razakel.

And Varesh was effectively brainwashed like any religiously radical, having been taught to Abaddon’s cult by General Kahyet.

Furthermore, they weren’t Abaddon’s only attempts. There was also the assault on the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, led by the Darknesses, and the assault on Dragon Festival led by The Fury – who was also leading the titan threat through the Door of Komalie. No human villains in either of those cases.

Khilbron, Shiro, and Varesh all had their roles, but those roles wouldn’t exist without The Fury, Razakel, the Fortune Teller, and whoever had re-spread the knowledge of Abaddon in Elona (most likely yet another demon).

And yes, dragon minions do not have free will. But my point is that you cannot always blame a subordinate for the leader’s plans and actions, especially when the subordinate is unknowing of the plot or manipulated into the plot (such as Shiro and Khilbron respectively) or brainwashed (either traditionally, like Varesh, or magically, like dragon minions).

You especially cannot say that humanity was the one at fault, when there was only fewer than a dozen humans actually aware and able to make the choice. That would be like blaming all of humanity for Adolf kitten.

And with Abaddon being a manipulator via agents, who knows the circumstances that led to Kahyet becoming a devout follower of Abaddon. Maybe even she was tricked – Anet never went into that.

Let’s not forget that the events of Prophecies were triggered by Abaddon influencing the charr through the titans. Khilbron would never have had the excuse or the desperation (depending on how you read his character) to cause the Cataclysm if not for the Searing and the charr invasions… and while Khilbron was one man, all of the charr at the time were behind the Searing.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

The precise line is “The jotun hid from the dragons, and the dwarves withdrew into their fortresses”

The full line is:

The elder races could not agree on what to do. The jotun hid from the dragons, and the dwarves withdrew into their fortresses. The Seers stored magic for use after the dragons returned to sleep.

This shows two things:

First, every race took a different action. In turn, this means that the so-called alliance from every single other source is a fabrication should this be accurate.

Second, all three actions are defensive, rather than offensive, measures. And we were told the dwarves went on the offensive.

Even with the full line, I think you’re reading limitations in the possible interpretations of the statement that aren’t there.

All that’s needed for the tablets to be true is for there to be some point in time where there was disagreement – with the jotuns wanting to hide, the dwarves wanting to fortify, the Seers working on the bloodstones, and the mursaat and Forgotten wanting to go on the offensive. This disagreement leads to the mursaat and Forgotten going on the offensive on their own, being defeated, and the mursaat blaming the other races for their defeat.

There could have been a period where all parts of the alliance were more eager to fight and go on the offensive, and the tablets would still be truth. A half-truth, as they’re omitting the period when the other races were more hawkish, but truth nonetheless (and we already know the tablets have left out the Seer-mursaat war, so obviously they aren’t a complete record).

Or there could have been a period, after the mursaat left, that the dwarves went on the offensive.

Or the dwarves could have been going on the offensive underground, and the mursaat didn’t realise, or, being arrogant self-obsessed kittens, regarded this is “withdrawing into their fortresses” because the dwarves were fighting on a different front to that the mursaat wanted to.

I’d also note that nothing in the tablets indicates that the mursaat were ever “white”. Their motivations for fighting could easily be, and probably are, selfish: they wanted to retain their full magic, and the only ways to do so were to leave Tyria or to defeat the dragons.