Guild Wars 2

Don’t get me wrong, I love running around with pistols or rifles etc. It makes for great gameplay—so I’m not critiquing their addition to the game.

But from a gw2 universe/lore standpoint, I try to rationalize how this all fits together and it doesn’t make any sense to me at all.

For instance, in the game the rifles appear to deal great damage, are armor piercing, and have a great rate of fire. So if I were a warrior or a ranger I don’t see any reason why I would pick a bow over a rifle ever—unless I wanted to ambush a pack of risen in a dense forest without sound to give away my position.

So, unless there is some unspoken rule, perhaps that it is much easier to magically manipulate arrows in flight than bullets—or something—bows seem pointless.

And then there are the massive tanks, and bat-mobile guns, and machine guns, and APC siege engines that the Charr have built, or the Asura with magically infused battle golems. —then you still have humans that are still running catapults and burning-oil ? No wonder humanity is on the brink. The charr could take Divinities Reach anytime they wanted.

So naturally, I try and figure out the balance. I think, hey, maybe part of the reason is because the Charr had to give up the power of their gods and find a new source of power in technology. Humans on the other hand still have the power of their gods to defend their city….owait o.O

So…thanks for reading, if any of you guys have any ideas on how I can fit all of these ideas together within the gw universe/lore—or just want to contribute thanks for posting !!

Not exactly what you’re saying…
So I’ll talk about guns/bows. Rangers can’t use guns, because that goes against their nature philosophy. Thieves can use pistols and shortbow. If you want to think realistically, pistols only have like 6 shots, wheras a shortbow can be fired for as much as a quiver can hold. And as seen with the warrior, you can manipulate both types of projectile weapons in different ways. Warriors use the bow as a more fire arrow approach, and a rifle as more of a sniper gun. So each weapon has their own use

Thematically I think it’s to differentiate races. The fact that humans seem compartiviely un-special and weak to the tools employed by other races is part of the human ethos in the GW2 timeline. This is pretty common in fantasy worlds, where all the non-human races have all kinds of cool stuff, but humans manage to get by by being adaptable and having a quick wit.

Essentially, I’d see the use of bows as a case of the current timeline. The pact and the peaceful interactions of races is fairly new, and thus rifles, gunpowder, and other technologies are still new and unknown to a lot of people. Just like reality, we didn’t transition from horses to cars or bows to firearms overnight. it was a porcess that took a long time, and Tyria as of GW2 is very near the beginning of that process for the majority of its people. Ranger characters don’t avoid using guns because they’re physically unable to, but rather because they don’t know how and see no reason to learn. Similarly, sylvari dont build giant war machines or golems because their culture doesn’t really need or use them.

Humans, as a culture have the strength of “adaptability” due to hundreds of years of losing ground due to their previous hubris. When your back is against the wall and you don’t have a lot of other options you tend to be a lot more amicable to learning to use an asuran golem, or a charr rifle, or whatever seems available to you.

Gibbilo.3270:

The charr could take Divinities Reach anytime they wanted.

They already tried and failed horribly, like with Ebonhawke Stronghold, after many failed attempts to even breach the walls the Charr simply believe its a “waste of time and effort”

Also with the awakening of the Elder Dragons they just kind of decided to work together since to not have one would mean the defeat of the others.

@OP: your theory would have sense if there is no magic involved. Magic puts everything to the same level.

In real life, the primary reason guns replaced bows was not power, in fact for a long time bows were better weapons than guns. The reason guns replaced bows is because using guns require minimal training, while a good bowman requires years and years of training.

Telsyr.8723:

Gibbilo.3270:

The charr could take Divinities Reach anytime they wanted.

They already tried and failed horribly, like with Ebonhawke Stronghold, after many failed attempts to even breach the walls the Charr simply believe its a “waste of time and effort”

Also with the awakening of the Elder Dragons they just kind of decided to work together since to not have one would mean the defeat of the others.

If you listen to soldier and civilian dialogue, Ebonhawke was going to fall. It was Queen Jennah that decided to offer a peace treaty to the Charr to save what they had left and perhaps gain new relations. As you can see, the Charr have already agreed to let the humans resettle on some of the land Ascalon outside of Ebonhawke. Basically, this was the make up for their long mindless war… aaaaand that they find humans useful in some ways to be considered as allies.

As for the guns. If you look at the designs of the guns, lore-wise they would be similar to matchlock rifles. (There are machine guns in this game but they operate like gatling guns and are stationary emplacements.) Game mechanics wise though, they couldn’t let players wait 15 seconds between every shot so they made it so it can be rapid fired.

Well, rifles from Charr and Human artisans resemble flintlocks. Asuran on the other hand . . . they use other methods to accelerate the bullet, it appears. Magitek mass drivers? Who knows, the Asura don’t explain their technology to bookahs.

With regards to humans here, two things come to mind:

First, the impression I get is that while humans don’t have the magitech of the asura, they are certainly more magically-inclined than the charr. In fact, from what we hear about, it’s possible that the best human magic-users might actually outstrip asura – asura have the edge because of their magitech, however an asura who becomes famous is usually famous because of their inventions. When you hear about a magic-user pulling off some stunning feat that single-handedly turns the tide of a battle without making use of some magical artifact or device, though… it’s pretty much always a human, up to and including Queen Jennah at Ebonhawke.

Secondly, humans do use rifles – Ghosts of Ascalon has a unit of Ebon Vanguard riflemen, there are rifle-users in the Ministry Guard and the Seperatists, and so on. Even if they aren’t shown often, technologically speaking they should have cannon as well (although note that older-style siege engines can still have advantages over early cannons). What we see in-game is probably a result of ArenaNet cutting corners with units such as the Seraph and Ebon Vanguard that nearly always appear as allies – the focus is on the PCs and the enemies being faced by the PCs, so the NPCs in friendly forces seem to have a smaller range of troop types (generally two to four per faction). In places where you have multiple armies working together this is hidden somewhat because they cover for each other’s gaps – thus, you don’t really notice this with, say, the Pact in Orr or the allied charr legions in Ascalon because what’s missing from one group you’ll see in another. However, in the case of humans, it becomes really obvious because you’re generally only dealing with one friendly human force at a time, be it the Seraph or the Ebon Vanguard, so it’s easier to notice things like how Seraph ranged troops are always archer warriors, when in truth the Seraph probably also contains rangers, warrior riflemen, and spellcaster support. If you take the mix of professions and weapons displayed by friendly unnamed NPCs, though, you could come to some strange conclusions – such as Iron Legion warriors all being riflecharr while the melee role is exclusively filled by guardians.

Tl;DR: In lore, humans do make use of firearms – ArenaNet just had higher priorities than showing this for friendly human forces in game.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Siege_Turtles
In GW1 the Luxons had Siege turtles with gigantic cannons on their backs. Despite this they were still on pretty even footing with the Kurzicks who had plant based Juggernauts
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kurzick_Juggernaut

I think my point is that you can’t look at guns as functioning the same way as in the real world, they’re not necessarily any more or less effective than other weapons. I mean, if you wanted to apply real world logic then we should be able to one shot everything, because let’s be realistic, if I hack at something with a sword or put a bullet in something, it’s going to die xD.

Just cutting in with a detail: ghosts in Ascalon do use cannons, especially around the Grendich Court in Diessa.

Gibbilo.3270:

Don’t get me wrong, I love running around with pistols or rifles etc. It makes for great gameplay—so I’m not critiquing their addition to the game.

But from a gw2 universe/lore standpoint, I try to rationalize how this all fits together and it doesn’t make any sense to me at all…

Back in Guild Wars 1, cannons were already available, although limited, to certain human groups (luxon siege turtles anyone?). It would make sense to assume that, before their fall, the ascalonians became even more desperate, and did everything they could to put this foreign technology to use against the charr.

Now, regarding explosives technology in the Guild Wars 1 timeline: the dwarves had reliable powder-based explosives, and the charr had ooze-based explosives (which were difficult to handle).

With explosives technology available, it would seem a natural evolution to attempt to employ such technology in different ways, thus the arrival of personal firearms.

After the Iron Legion reacquired its former territories, and the success of the rebellion against the Flame Legion, charr culture changed deeply. No longer were they willing to rely upon the mystic power of other charr who merely wished to use this power to preserve their privileged position in charr society, but also were unwilling to allow themselves to be manipulated by any kind of greater power, such as a god.

These two events combined, were all the Iron Legion needed to push forward with technological development, thus seeking to harness their very own power. Not granted to them by a god, or acquired through any obscure means, it was simply power created by the charr, and mastered by the charr.

Back to the fireams: history shows us that whenever someone makes a weapon with the potential of changing the outcome of an entire war, everyone will do their best to acquire or replicate the capabilities of such weapons. Thus, were the charr firearms copied by the other races.

And now, regarding the use of bows and melee weapons when firearms are already available (and I mean the real world human history): when firearms were first introduced, they were less desirable than crossbows (which, at the time had already replaced bows). A crossbow was much more precise and would pack more punch, than any pistol available.

A lot of refinements had to be implemented, in order to turn firearms into reliable weapons that could potentially outmatch every other available weapon in the battlefield, such as the introduction of rifled barrels (which is available as a trait to engineers, and thus suggests that the vast majority of firearms currently in use in the Guild Wars 2 universe, lack rifled barrels – this severely cripples their accuracy and effective range).

Now, regarding firearms and armor in real human history: at the beginning, plate armor would still provide protection against firearms, and bullets would not penetrate it unless at short or point blank range (it also depended on the caliber and the amount and type of gunpowder used, but plate armor was still the only thing that provided protection against bullets). As the weapons evolved and were more broadly accepted, certain types of armor were eventually phased out (such as chainmail) as they were completely useless against the increasingly common firearms.

Plate armor was the last one to be phased out, and it happened not because it no longer provided protection against firearms, but because it had to be too heavy and cumbersome to provide an acceptable degree of protection against the ever increasing power of the firearms. It became too expensive and impractical.

Regarding the existence of tanks within the current Guild Wars timeline, this doesn’t seem like a strange idea to me. We know that Leonardo da Vinci drew sketches of a tank, during a time when firearms were available, but some of the most common methods of land-based transportation, were still carriages and carts.

Granted, the charr tanks are nothing like da Vinci’s sketches, but there’s one thing that must be taken into account: the charr industrial revolution. Steam drives charr machinery.

We know the potential of steam to produce work (the mechanical definition of work) was discovered by the ancient greek. Unfortunately, at this moment I can’t remember the name of the man who discovered it. Some historians believe the true potential of steam could have been discovered earlier in history, if certain social conditions had lent themselves to that; among them, the need to find an alternate means of producing work, that outmatched animal power (granted, eolic and hydraulic power were in use, but in a very limited way.).

The charr met precisely the right combination of conditions they needed in order to take the next leap forward, to their industrial revolution.

Yeah no need to justify “guns should only shoot 6 times before reloading” or anything. This isn’t one of those FPS RPG’s where you’re running around counting bullets. It’s easier for me to think of this game as 5 different games that met in some weird game twilight zone.

Classic-fantasy humans, steam-punk tank cats, mad-scientist gnomes, ale-guzzling vikings, and some english-gentrified garden elves all mingling together on a borrowed world to kill a lich dragon.

It’s got something for everyone!!

Charr Guardian.1497:

We know the potential of steam to produce work (the mechanical definition of work) was discovered by the ancient greek. Unfortunately, at this moment I can’t remember the name of the man who discovered it.

He was Hero of Alexandria.

Ooh! Another chance to push my Magic Ammo Theory!

I’m still of the opinion that anyone with a capital P Profession (all PC’s and many NPCs) doesn’t bother with ammo (be it bullets or arrows) because all classes are magical to some extent. Much like the Mesmer offhand pistol is obviously firing a magical projectile and not something physical, I think everyone is firing projections of their own will (or whatever magic is in Tyria). This explains how a Thief can crank out 5 shots from a flintlock over the course of 1 second, or how a ranger Barrage is possible from only 1 bow.

Farmer Joe still needs his black powder and a ramrod to go hunting, and siege engines still need real ammo, but real Heroes don’t need this, they just need something to project their own potential through. Hence, Rangers stick with bows because it fits their traditions and beliefs better. Maybe in another 250 years, rangers’ magic will adapt to rifles too, but being naturalists, they haven’t jumped on the industrial revolution yet, and continue projecting their magic through the old ways. More cosmopolitan Professions have incorporated firearms to varying degrees, without necessarily discarding bows.

Just my two cents.

Klawlyt.6507:

Ooh! Another chance to push my Magic Ammo Theory!

I’m still of the opinion that anyone with a capital P Profession (all PC’s and many NPCs) doesn’t bother with ammo (be it bullets or arrows) because all classes are magical to some extent. Much like the Mesmer offhand pistol is obviously firing a magical projectile and not something physical, I think everyone is firing projections of their own will (or whatever magic is in Tyria). This explains how a Thief can crank out 5 shots from a flintlock over the course of 1 second, or how a ranger Barrage is possible from only 1 bow.

Farmer Joe still needs his black powder and a ramrod to go hunting, and siege engines still need real ammo, but real Heroes don’t need this, they just need something to project their own potential through. Hence, Rangers stick with bows because it fits their traditions and beliefs better. Maybe in another 250 years, rangers’ magic will adapt to rifles too, but being naturalists, they haven’t jumped on the industrial revolution yet, and continue projecting their magic through the old ways. More cosmopolitan Professions have incorporated firearms to varying degrees, without necessarily discarding bows.

Just my two cents.

Ever hear of “Projection Magic,” from the Fate/Stay Night universe? Because it sounds like a very plausible way of explaining this from a lore perspective. Since mesmer phantasms already work off a similar principle, it’s quite plausible.

Why does this need explained? Video games aren’t supposed to adhere to the laws of physics or even basic math. It’s silly to try and force every real-world mechanic on this. I mean, how come our characters don’t eat, or sleep, or use the bathroom?? How can we carry 10 stacks or iron ore in our backpack(with no change in encumbrance) and then magically send all of that to our bank, do our packpacks have tiny wormholes in them?

Some games out there try to do this with varying degrees of success, but I don’t see the point in trying to justify the reasoning behind it through lore or magic. It’s just a simple game mechanic to make the experience more enjoyable and convenient.

Obsidian.1328:

I don’t see the point in trying to justify the reasoning behind it through lore or magic. It’s just a simple game mechanic to make the experience more enjoyable and convenient.

I can only speak for myself but I enjoy finding the line between what’s lore and what’s game mechanics.

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

I don’t see the point in trying to justify the reasoning behind it through lore or magic. It’s just a simple game mechanic to make the experience more enjoyable and convenient.

I can only speak for myself but I enjoy finding the line between what’s lore and what’s game mechanics.

Oh. Erm…is this a nerdy lore kinda thing? Because I can uderstand that lol. I thought you guys were actually trying to find honest ways to justify why it’s not real. :P

Sorry about that.

Obsidian.1328:

Oh. Erm…is this a nerdy lore kinda thing? Because I can uderstand that lol. I thought you guys were actually trying to find honest ways to justify why it’s not real. :P

Sorry about that.

LOL! It is for me :P

Charr Guardian.1497:

And now, regarding the use of bows and melee weapons when firearms are already available (and I mean the real world human history): when firearms were first introduced, they were less desirable than crossbows (which, at the time had already replaced bows). A crossbow was much more precise and would pack more punch, than any pistol available.

Only in continental armies – the English kept using longbows up until the Cromwell era (the remaining longbowmen where on the side of the monarchy, and were disbanded afterwards).

A skilled longbowman actually performed better than pretty much any muzzle-loading handgun. The reason they were confined to the English, however, is that it requires a lot of investment to train someone to properly use one, including building up upper body strength (one of the English kings said that to produce a longbowman, you needed to start with his grandfather – more practically, the monarchy ensured a reasonable supply of longbowmen by making archery practise compulsory) – most nations preferred crossbows because you can give one to any conscript and expect them to perform decently, while if you give a longbow to someone who hasn’t been building up the upper-body strength they probably won’t even be able to draw it. The age of gunpowder came when firearms reached a point where they were superior to crossbows, and filled the same role. Since we don’t see crossbows, it might be reasonable to presume that GW2 is already in this era.

So why do we see bows? Because there are enough people still out there that see the value of bows. Rangers at the very least are sticking to bows, and they’re probably influencing others to practice enough to be competent. In the meantime, we’re probably still seeing medieval armour and weapons because metallurgy in GW2 is in advance of what was on historical Earth, with darksteel (apparently an alloy of platinum, zwa?), Deldrimor steel, mithril, and orichalcum being available as well as magic. Now, while making armour, melee weapons, or even rifle barrels out of such exotic materials may be viewed as worthwhile, it’s probably unlikely that people are going to use such valuable metals for ammunition – thus, the soldier decked out in superior armour can still enjoy decent protection without being severely encumbered.

@Chilly I’m not familiar with that, but it does sound interesting.

@Obsidian Yeah, it’s a nerdy lore thing. I don’t need these types of justifications, but these are the kind of things that cross my mind during loading screens and long runs. And I’ll be honest, while high fantasy isn’t usually my thing, Tyria is quite a world, and easy to get immersed in. It’s got so much of its own character and flavor, and it manages to break from the whole Tolkien/DnD stereotypes in interesting ways.
So yeah, while running supply back and forth in preparation for the next zerg, I wonder stuff like if I shoot magic bullets, and if growing up in the alleys if Divinity’s Reach, I managed to somehow attend Thief School.

I actually think this game took the steampunk elements way to far, especially in the pact, and it just causes inconsistency and poor storytelling in general in my opinion. Running around swining a sword right next to a tank column supported by aircraft, artillery and whatnot, just doesn’t make any flipping sense.

Personally I don’t so much mind the asura advanced technology since they’ve got the whole magitech thing going, and the charr only have the iron legion really emphasizing on steampunk. Why then the pact needs to be a steampunk army boggles my mind.

If you ask me this game needs to decide wether it wants to be heavy steampunk modern combat fantasy or either your regular fantasy setting with a touch of tech, because right now it’s so darn conflicting.

@Jelle: Guess you never played Final Fantasy…bad guys have spaceship and missiles. Good guys have sword, spear, shield, staff, bow. Good guys won everygame.

Game balance isn’t what’s being discussed here remember, lore-wise there’s very little stopping the charr war machine from rolling over all of tyria (possibly not asura) accept the elder dragon threat.

keep in mind the Charr warmachines biggest weakness is it’s divisiveness and need to be dominated before submitting. each legion vies for power. Without that divisiveness they dominate their enemies and rule as the alphs race in the lands they claim.

it took the the humans backed bythe power of gods to finally find a chinck in the armor of a united Charr nation.

So, the Charr having a distinct potential military advantage fits the lore. If A-Net ascribes a big portion of that advantage to technology, it fits.

Historically humans have taken full advantage of a technological advanatge smoothly incorporating it into their general overall strategy. Charr don’t do this. their “tech department” is pretty much restricted to one legion, at odds with 3 other legions. Who don’t necesarily hold up tech developement and use in the same kind of priority.

They are like the spartans. Each legion holds a rigid ideal of the type of training it takes to stay on top but that is also a major flaw becasue that rigidity is less adaptable. it works when they all work together but that cooperation is tenuous at the best of times.

Someone already pointed out the futility of trying to segregate science and magic. They are truly one and the same.

Consider that alchemy allowed for the discovery of gunpowder and explosives. You know, those same dudes that were trying to transmute matter from one form to another?

Humans got all technologically advanced in recent years and stopped using the names of certain fields of inquiry like alchemy and astrology and metaphysics; we are funny like that, thinking we are beyond anything that eight thousand years or more of human history can teach us.

One can read the Bhagavad Gita to see that the human mind already had encapsulated so many possibilities long before we attempted to do the same with our theories on multiverses and the quantum nature of our existence.

The lineage of our science is well founded:

Alchemy, became chemistry.

Astrology, became astronomy.

Metaphysics became physics and all its wonderful children.

Actually, Kuldebar, Clarke’s third law is demonstrably wrong in the universe of Guild Wars 2. Elder dragons such as Zhaitan can eat magical artifacts and absorb their power, but gain no benefit from doing so with nonmagical artifacts. Thus, there is a means of distinguishing between magic and nonmagical technology.

Now, magic can clearly be used in technology, but it appears as if magic in Tyria is certainly some kind of energy that is not known to exist in the real world. Devices employing that energy are magic, those that do not are not.

(Historically, yes, some sciences were born through people pursuing the occult. However, what happened there is that the science was what they found when they failed to find the magic they were looking for…)

Bows are clearly magical for all inhabitantas of Tyria! I have yet to spot a single quiver.

News just in, quivers exist.

Well now they always did. Strange, huh?

draxynnic.3719:

Actually, Kuldebar, Clarke’s third law is demonstrably wrong in the universe of Guild Wars 2. Elder dragons such as Zhaitan can eat magical artifacts and absorb their power, but gain no benefit from doing so with nonmagical artifacts. Thus, there is a means of distinguishing between magic and nonmagical technology.

Now, magic can clearly be used in technology, but it appears as if magic in Tyria is certainly some kind of energy that is not known to exist in the real world. Devices employing that energy are magic, those that do not are not.

(Historically, yes, some sciences were born through people pursuing the occult. However, what happened there is that the science was what they found when they failed to find the magic they were looking for…)

I don’t quite follow your supposition. It’s all magic, the science, too. The same continuum just perceived as different to those doing the observing. What dragons eat and how they digest it has no bearing on the magic of science or the science of magic.

Just because we don’t know or can’t explain something doesn’t mean something is eternally unknowable.

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

Digestion of magical items doesn’t really have anything to do with the third law.

It means they are in principle distinguishable. I don’t think anyone’s going to willingly offer up artifacts to something like the Mouth of Zhaitan (or any equivalents for other dragons) in order to determine whether the artifact is magical or purely technological, but the distinction is there. There may also be other means that can be used to drain the magic from an item, thereby distinguishing whether or not it was magical in the first place.

There may even be magic, such as the ubiquitous Detect Magic from Dungeons and Dragons, that can directly identify whether something is magical. The asura certainly seem to have a way of telling.

I think here you’re misinterpreting the meaning of Clarke’s Third Law. His intent is basically to say that if some item of technology is sufficiently advanced that the observer cannot understand it, it might as well be magic. We’ve seen this historically – cultures coming into first contact with firearms (let alone more advanced technology – do a search on “cargo cults” to see this in practice) tend to view it as magic. People in the Guild Wars universe, however, mostly understand the principles behind the technology they use – from the viewpoint of Clarke’s Law, it’s insufficiently advanced. Clarke’s Law does not mean that magic and technology will be indistinguishable in every universe.

I should note here that I am deliberately using the term ‘technology’ and not ‘science’, since the presence of magic and its properties will be part of the body of scientific knowledge within that universe – however, this does not change the fact that there are some things that have magic, and some things that do not, however advanced they might be. Magic is certainly something that is knowable in the Guild Wars universe, however part of that knowledge is that some things have magic and some do not, just like in both our universe and Tyria there are some things that are alive and some that are not.

The bottom line is that there is some energy in Tyria, called magic by its inhabitants, that is not present (as far as we know) in the real world. Items that have and/or make use of this energy are magical. Items that do not, however advanced they may be, are not magical.

In the Guild Wars universe, magic and technology, however advanced, are easily distinguishable. Just offer it up to a dragon and see if it likes the taste. If that’s not to your liking, there are probably a dozen different asura krewes that will happily analyse it for you for a modest sum.

Today guns are preferred over bows due to;
-their small size (mobility, conceal ability),
-small ammunition (you can carry alot more),
-bullets travel faster(usually somewhere around 800 fps),
-you can get alot more rounds in the air faster,
- and are alot more accurate at longer distances etc…
However: it took time to get there; I agree with PopeUrban; the idea that it’s a “transition phase” seems like a smart one.
Whenever someone comes up with a new idea everyone else usually thinks the person is a bit of a nutter, or don’t like change (like the reputation US army had for refusing new faster firing weapons (according to some documentaries), or physicians refusal of new medical theories back in the medieval ages)

draxynnic.3719:

Charr Guardian.1497:

And now, regarding the use of bows and melee weapons when firearms are already available (and I mean the real world human history): when firearms were first introduced, they were less desirable than crossbows (which, at the time had already replaced bows). A crossbow was much more precise and would pack more punch, than any pistol available.

Only in continental armies – the English kept using longbows up until the Cromwell era (the remaining longbowmen where on the side of the monarchy, and were disbanded afterwards).

A skilled longbowman actually performed better than pretty much any muzzle-loading handgun. The reason they were confined to the English, however, is that it requires a lot of investment to train someone to properly use one, including building up upper body strength (one of the English kings said that to produce a longbowman, you needed to start with his grandfather – more practically, the monarchy ensured a reasonable supply of longbowmen by making archery practise compulsory) – most nations preferred crossbows because you can give one to any conscript and expect them to perform decently, while if you give a longbow to someone who hasn’t been building up the upper-body strength they probably won’t even be able to draw it. The age of gunpowder came when firearms reached a point where they were superior to crossbows, and filled the same role. Since we don’t see crossbows, it might be reasonable to presume that GW2 is already in this era.

So why do we see bows? Because there are enough people still out there that see the value of bows. Rangers at the very least are sticking to bows, and they’re probably influencing others to practice enough to be competent. In the meantime, we’re probably still seeing medieval armour and weapons because metallurgy in GW2 is in advance of what was on historical Earth, with darksteel (apparently an alloy of platinum, zwa?), Deldrimor steel, mithril, and orichalcum being available as well as magic. Now, while making armour, melee weapons, or even rifle barrels out of such exotic materials may be viewed as worthwhile, it’s probably unlikely that people are going to use such valuable metals for ammunition – thus, the soldier decked out in superior armour can still enjoy decent protection without being severely encumbered.

However most of the muskets presented in the game used by the military units of each race look like they were made post 1700 or wouldn’t work period and thus bows would be obsolete. Also let us not forget that it take much less time to create ammunition for muskets when compared to arrows. Also there is a charr musket that has a bayonet on it. It is not a plug bayonet so you can assume that bows would be obsolete if you were to compare it to the real world’s timeline. So ultimately you would only see ranger with a bow or more primitive species(i.e. Hylek, Grawl, Jotun,etc) Unless the tyria’s tacticians were just stupid as heck and didn’t use muskets in massed formations.

Guns didn’t really outpace bows in the hands of a skilled archers until bolt-action and similar innovations allowing sustained fire started appearing in the late 1800s, finally overcoming the rate-of-fire advantage of bows. Guns were used because they were quicker and easier to learn and thus more effective in the hands of most people (especially when you’re using them for massed fire against packed ranks) – however, there were strategists in the British military that were considering bringing longbows back during the Napoleonic wars. The reason they didn’t was not because bows were strictly inferior to the muskets and early rifles of the time – it was because training a good longbowman requires starting on building up their strength in early adolescence, while you can get a decent musketeer in a few months.

The problem with applying real-world military history to Tyria is that the presence of magic gives Tyrians a very different set of military realities. Massed formations were vulnerable enough to artillery historically – they start looking like a much worse idea when someone on the other side can call down fire from the sky or reflect a volley of bullets straight back at the firer… and that’s just considering what a human army might be able to do. The end result is that Tyrian militaries, regardless of technology, seem to have developed tactics more akin to the modern day – namely, spread out, make use of terrain when practical, and generally try not to form up in ranks and files that have big bulls-eyes painted on them.

The end result is that Tyrians are going to lean towards weapons that are suitable to be used by reasonably skilled combatants against individual targets or small groups, not weapons that are so inaccurate on and individual level that they’re only really useful fired in volleys. You’re right in that Tyrian firearms seem relatively modern for weapons that are being used alongside bows – this could well be because guns actually never got out of the ‘toy’ phase in Tyria until rifling was developed and they started actually being accurate enough to reliably use against individual targets.

Combine that with the range of tricks that thieves, warriors and rangers can pull of with bows, whether through magic, alchemy or simple skill, and I don’t think it’s actually all that much of a surprise that seemingly anachronistic mixes of weapons continue to be used.

Technology doesn’t wield anywhere near as much power when even primitive sentient beings can manifest energy at will if they have that connection to it.

@Draxy your post was right on target.

Also, Tyrian humanity is on the brink because they are fighting wars against organized crime, the centaurs, the White Mantle, they lost what could be the most important city in the region in Lion’s Arch, their nobility is fighting each other, their military divisions are fighting each other, and the Seraph are spread out so far to the east and west it begs the question of whether Logan Thackeray has any idea what he’s doing.

Here’s what Jennah needs to do if she wants Kryta to be a great nation, even with the problems they have and the Dragons.

First, tell Logan to rejoin Destiny’s Edge and marry the guy so there isn’t such a conflict of interest.

Second, announce to the ministry that they will now be unable to decide where Seraph troops go, giving that authority to the Master Exemplar, Anise.

Third, tell the Ministry Guard that they are now under command of the Seraph and eliminate that conflict of interest.

Fourth, strongly advise Anise to get the Seraph out of the Shiverpeaks and Maguuma and to offer the poor service to the Seraph in exchange for settlement outside Ebonhawke.

Fifth, bring in asura and charr military advisors to teach construction of golems and siege weapons in exchange for non-aggression treaties that restrict future kings/queens from using them against their people.

Finally, kick the centaurs out of Kryta, smash every single bandit gang, and build an enormous wall across the northern border of Harathi Highlands, taking a lesson from the Ascalonians.

Unfortunately, most of those are things that she doesn’t really have the power to do.

For the first: Logan is explicitly not nobility, and in most monarchies it’s pretty hard to marry royalty if you’re not at least nobility yourself. Mind you, it’d be hard to argue that Logan doesn’t deserve that for taking part in bringing down an Elder Dragon, so Jennah might be able to pull that one off.

Second and third… ask Charles I of England how well that worked out (and, less obviously related but still applicable, the reason the United States as we know it even exists). Kryta’s power structure is based on a balance between the crown and Ministry, and if the Ministry was willing to cede power to the throne, the throne wouldn’t need to take away those powers to do what needs to be done. If the Queen attempted to unilaterally strip power from the Ministry, it’d give Caudecus an excuse to take the Ministry into outright revolt.

On the fourth – part A is something I’m not convinced is a good idea. The Seraph forces in Brisban and Snowden are relatively small, and it wouldn’t surprise me if those in Brisban are actually Shining Blade in disguise. By having a presence in those locations, Kryta is able to keep tabs on enemy activities there, and that intel could well be more valuable than a few more troops on the battlefields would be.

Recruiting the poor is a good idea… if Jennah and Logan aren’t already doing so. To be honest, I think they are, it’s just that not everyone’s willing to be recruited. We’re also told that part of the problem the Seraph have is funding the soldiers they already have (if Kryta is like most constitutional monarchies, the Ministry probably controls the purse strings). Granting land outside of Ebonhawke isn’t a viable option for a number of reasons (it’s questionable whether Ascalonian land is truly hers to give, and potential settlers may be wary of settling land that the charr might decide to take back at any time).

On point five… I don’t think that’s something that Jennah can really promise. She can’t predict the future, after all. On top of that, the asura are jealous of their technology, while engineer/charr style technology already seems to be making its way into the fighting agaisnt the centaurs.

On point six – I think they’re working on it as hard as they can, and I’m inclined to think the first part has probably actually been achieved by the time we hit the Battle for Lion’s Arch (it’s just that the zones are in a kind of temporal stasis). Building a wall isn’t really tenable due to being something that takes generations to complete – the Ascalonians built theirs from a position of strength as a fallback plan, not at a time they were being pushed hard back. The bandit gangs are the real challenge, and they’re surviving as a result of corruption higher up.

When push comes to shove, it’s Caudecus that really needs to be resolved, since most of Kryta’s problems seem to be directly or indirectly the result of his attempts to seize the throne. The result of the CM dungeon probably has him temporarily neutered, but I doubt he’s out for the count, and the bandits (especially those that are secretly White Mantle) are probably going to keep going without his support anyway (especially given the alliance in Brisban between them, the Inquest, and the Nightmare Court). Still, while we haven’t seen it, I do think Kryta is in a much better position at the time Zhaitan starts attacking Lion’s Arch than it was at the start of the game.

I feel this is kind of like the famous Spongebob question.

“How do SB and Patrick breathe while underwater?”
“It is a cartoon about a sponge in a pineapple and a starfish in pants and you want to argue the realism of them breathing underwater?”

Turial.1293:

I feel this is kind of like the famous Spongebob question.

“How do SB and Patrick breathe while underwater?”
“It is a cartoon about a sponge in a pineapple and a starfish in pants and you want to argue the realism of them breathing underwater?”

No, I’m finding it similar to a conversation with a friend once at a convention (over drinks, naturally) about how the world of Harry Potter was completely unrealistic and an example of hack writing.

Why? Because the existence of magic alongside the existence of technology should not be possible. The lack of people having put technology and magic together is unbelievable. The existence of several “minor” charms/spells should, in theory, greatly improve the quality of life and environment. There was about an hour of back and forth, many of the details are hazy, but it began and ended with Clarke’s Third Law being used liberally.

. . . it also ended when we all determined Alan Rickman made a very good fit for Snape, and we got derailed talking about Robin Hood, Die Hard, and many other terrible terrible movies.

@draxy

Jennah is at the strongest political position of her life right now though, and with the infamous Logan playing his part in the successful takedown of Zhaitan, they could definitely pull that off.

The Ministry would very likely be proven to be traitors with more digging on them, especially now that Demmi Beetlestone is working actively with the Order of Whispers to help undermine opposition to the throne at its most likely to be successful source. That much organized crime and corruption doesn’t come from one guy by himself, but from a network. I agree with you though, she would be wise to wait until she has something that can outrage the people against them, which is the source of what makes her worthy of protection by the Order of Whispers. The people love her, she has her priorities straight on their Lion’s Arch relationship, and if she announced that a group of ministers were on trial for treason, that would be one hell of a populist lightning rod.

I’ll note that I’m so sure about the treasonous elements because you have a bunch of greedy people who are entitled who are watching a “little girl” doing what they were doing for probably ten years. They’re cowards, never had a real job in their lives, do not have the slightest idea about how to fight the war their “subjects” are fighting, and make no effort to improve the lives of their refugees, poor, or “low birth” people.

There is the intel in the west and east, but there is economic havoc being spread in the source of Kryta’s wealtkittens and it’s flooding the capital with non-productive citizens who are very kitten off. The centaurs have siege weapons set up and are protecting them in their house. Furthermore, the combination of the Ministry Guard would overwhelm the centaurs and make getting back out to the west a frightening reality for the bandits and the White Mantle who are probably helping funding their operations.

Ascalon, whether the charr like it or not, is too prevalent in human culture and too sensitive a sore spot to not provide an opportunity for people to settle lands that have been ceded by the charr. The Ascalonian population in Kryta revere their past every day, and that part of the city would be migrating in droves.

Also, one cannot ever discount the power of either having your own home or returning home. Sun Tzu said, with my own flavor filler haha, that a force returning home would fight like unhinged demons where before they would fight like men. The possibility, let alone the probability with the peace treaty, and a more organized military, of people living in dire straits to have a farm, build a village, and to protect it is exactly what would have humanity settle a pretty good sized area around Ebonhawke.

I’ll admit after reconsidering the asura and charr idea that it would be a long shot, but it wouldn’t hurt to ask, especially members of the Orders who see the value of a Kryta straightened out.

To your point on the Mantle and the alliance out west, I think that is coming down the pipe with the living story. The Mantle is far from dead and I think that the big dirty secret with them was that they were an occupying power from up north in the isles and maybe that enormous river delta we see on the map. How else would they continue fighting a proxy war with the Shining Blade? I think Kryta was a colony of theirs during Guild Wars Prophecies, but I could be wrong. Maybe they reformed their society after the mursaat were exposed, had a revolt in their borders… it’s hard to say for sure, but it makes sense if they can bankroll a military campaign and have agents to infiltrate a large principality with a dedicated espionage organization.

The wall would take a long time, but the sooner you get it started, the sooner you finish it. Also, that area is exactly where both the Centaurs and White Mantle would march through. It would be better to make them go through the jungle than fight on a front with construction and a lot of forces protecting it, where the Shining Blade has a history and where guerilla tactics can slaughter marching troops by the droves.

If they are in a stronger position, it’s still a cluttered house with the politics and organized crime that are likely connected. She needs to be a bit more forceful with these nobles they don’t respect her at all, and you do that with fear. I think Machiavelli has it right on fear > love, but instead of everyone, which is foolish, you do that with people with power. Massive public support is not only morally honorable, but pragmatic because if you dispose of the leader who the public loves you will face thousands of furious people who immediately suspect you without any regard to your innocence or guilt. That is more powerful than any wealth or tricky manipulations politicians can BS

I’d be willing to bet that Jennah and Anise have a list of Ministers they’d love to be able to put on trial, but they just don’t have the evidence for it. It’s probably one of those situations where they know who’s responsible, but don’t have enough to prove it to the satisfaction of all involved. While Jennah is more popular among the people, there’s a lot of support among the common folk for Caudecus and the Ministry in general as well – if it goes to an all-out civil war where Jennah is seen as the aggressor against the Ministry (an organisation whose explicit purpose is limiting her power to prevent excesses on her part) then the outcome cannot be guaranteed. Such a trial would be a populist lightning rod, yes… but if there was even a whiff of illegitimacy in the trial, that lightning might not be directed where you think.

Like I said, look at Charles I as a historical example, while the cause for the War of Independance was essentially that the colonists weren’t granted representation in Parliament. In theory, the ministers represent their people to the government – while some have clearly turned their back on that, moving against them without sufficient evidence could lead to a backlash.

With the case of Ebonhawke – pretty much, anyone who’s willing to fight for the right to settle in Ascalon would likely have already joined the Ebon Vanguard – Ascalonian expats have been jumping through the gate to fight for Ebonhawke for centuries. I don’t think Jennah’s going to be able to get more recruits from that pool. Seriously, she’d have more luck offering lands that are taken back from the centaurs.

You’re also very wrong on the White Mantle. While they were worshiping the mursaat who came from elsewhere, the Mantle themselves recruited directly from Kryta. When the end started to be in sight for the Mantle in Kryta, however, Confessor Isaiah sent the most fanatical of the Mantle forces that had been stationed in western Kryta into the Maguuma Jungle – essentially a reversal of he previous situation with the Shining Blade hiding in the jungle, except that the Mantle went deeper. They’ve probably formed settlements in the western Maguuma, far enough from asura territory as well as Kryta to evade detection.

A wall would only protect against one direction of attack, and like I said, the Ascalonians built theirs from a position of strength – well away from the front lines. A wall that’s still under construction is not a benefit but a liability. Furthermore, the Searing showed that a wall that took over a century to build could be broken in just one day… and where the charr were lacking in magic until the Flame Legion got together with the titans, we know the Modniir are led by powerful earth shamans. They probably have the power to bring down a wall in pretty short order if they wanted to.

draxynnic.3719:

Guns didn’t really outpace bows in the hands of a skilled archers until bolt-action and similar innovations allowing sustained fire started appearing in the late 1800s, finally overcoming the rate-of-fire advantage of bows. Guns were used because they were quicker and easier to learn and thus more effective in the hands of most people (especially when you’re using them for massed fire against packed ranks) – however, there were strategists in the British military that were considering bringing longbows back during the Napoleonic wars. The reason they didn’t was not because bows were strictly inferior to the muskets and early rifles of the time – it was because training a good longbowman requires starting on building up their strength in early adolescence, while you can get a decent musketeer in a few months.

The problem with applying real-world military history to Tyria is that the presence of magic gives Tyrians a very different set of military realities. Massed formations were vulnerable enough to artillery historically – they start looking like a much worse idea when someone on the other side can call down fire from the sky or reflect a volley of bullets straight back at the firer… and that’s just considering what a human army might be able to do. The end result is that Tyrian militaries, regardless of technology, seem to have developed tactics more akin to the modern day – namely, spread out, make use of terrain when practical, and generally try not to form up in ranks and files that have big bulls-eyes painted on them.

The end result is that Tyrians are going to lean towards weapons that are suitable to be used by reasonably skilled combatants against individual targets or small groups, not weapons that are so inaccurate on and individual level that they’re only really useful fired in volleys. You’re right in that Tyrian firearms seem relatively modern for weapons that are being used alongside bows – this could well be because guns actually never got out of the ‘toy’ phase in Tyria until rifling was developed and they started actually being accurate enough to reliably use against individual targets.

Combine that with the range of tricks that thieves, warriors and rangers can pull of with bows, whether through magic, alchemy or simple skill, and I don’t think it’s actually all that much of a surprise that seemingly anachronistic mixes of weapons continue to be used.

Given the fact that human are fighting on many fronts I don’t think that it makes sense to have bows at all when muskets are available. I disagree with when longbows would have been obsolete due to their massive investment vs their return. Personally the value of a weapon has to account for how easy it is to use and it’s overall utility.

I don’t even think they are muskets. Yeah they look like them in some cases, but both rifles and pistols can heard heard expelling ammunition shells when fired. Shells. Which means it wasn’t light gunpowder and the resulting boom accelerated the projectile inside. No these use actual bullets.

I think the guns in common usage are different for each race. e.g.: Norn use black powder rifles.

Q: When were rifles and pistols introduce in Tyria? How did humans first begin to produce them? And how common are they in Tyria for regular people of each race to use?

Jeff Grubb: Blackpowder, also called Dwarfpowder, existed back when humans still ran the world (that is, during the original Guild Wars), and was used in larger scale weapons like Canthan Siege Turtles. It’s unclear whether explosives were first discovered by the dwarves, the Canthans, or both came up with the idea separately. Over the centuries, its use has spread among the major and minor races, though only the five major races produce rifles and pistols in any quantities. The charr excel in mass-producing such weapons from a common template while the humans prefer a hand-crafted style. Both races have pistols and rifles, but you will tend to see them in more common usage in the Black Citadel than in Divinity’s Reach. Norn are comfortable with blackpowder weapons, and the sylvari have grown their own gun stocks. The asura use them, but usually in combination with arcane aiming and reload systems of their own devising.

http://ashenfold.com/ashenfold-cartel-interview-with-jeff-grubb-and-eric-flannum/

The Brigadier.3847:

Given the fact that human are fighting on many fronts I don’t think that it makes sense to have bows at all when muskets are available. I disagree with when longbows would have been obsolete due to their massive investment vs their return. Personally the value of a weapon has to account for how easy it is to use and it’s overall utility.

Given what a human can do with a shortbow or longbow in Tyria, I really don’t think they’re that . . . obsolete. Also consider we don’t know how long it takes to fashion a rifle/pistol as far as in-story terms. (Yes. I know the crafting menu puts one together in 5 seconds. It also puts together a breastplate in 5 seconds. I know it takes more time to actually do that.)

So far as I can tell, rifles/pistols are single-target weapons. Bows seem to excel at more widespread attacks. (Seriously, when someone can use one bow and make it rain arrows in a 10ft radius circle? I’ll accept that over the cumbersome artillery.)

Bows, historically, were more accurate (and thus had a longer range) than anything that didn’t have a rifled barrel, and had a higher rate of fire than any gun that was developed before the late 1800s. In fact, there’s a video around on the internet of a guy using a recently rediscovered technique to fire a bow at roughly the same speed of a ranger using Rapid Fire – it can’t be done indefinitely, but it’s still comparable to a semiautomatic with a small clip.

The reason why bows dropped out of usage was political – only the British Crown bothered to train longbowmen, and Cromwell disbanded them after defeating Charles I. A lot of people have the idea of the gun as being a superweapon that beats anything that is Not A Gun, but that wasn’t really true until around the time of World War 1 (consider that lance- and sabre-armed cavalry charges persisted into the early 20th century, and were a large part of the reason why infantry continued to fight in blocks in the 19th century despite the risks posed by artillery and massed musket fire).

It’s also worth observing that, with the possible exception of asura firearms (who knows how the frell they actually work) Tyria doesn’t seem to have invented the revolver, let alone the magazine – the highest technology we see for getting multiple shots is pepperbox-style multibarrel weapons (and while cool, they have a significant drawback – you have to reload all those barrels afterwards). Thus, our ability to obtain rapid rates of fire are essentially Rule of Cool, not something that the firearms we see are actually capable of doing (unless you use the tactic of some historical pistol cavalry and carrying a bucketload of pistols, unloading them all, and then withdrawing to reload).

Muskets overtook bows historically because, under historical battlefield conditions, they represented the best value for the investment – they weren’t as good as good archers with longbows, but when it takes ten years of training to get a good longbowman and a few months to get a musketeer that’s good enough to stand in a block firing volleys in the general direction of another block, muskets represented, if you’ll excuse the expression, more bang for their buck.

Tyrian battlefield conditions, however, are different. There’s a lot more AoE around than in any historical battle before the invention of automatic weapons, and no cavalry to sweep in and wipe out any dispersed troops. The historical musket tactics of forming solid blocks and firing volleys in the expectation that if you send enough lead at a densely packed enough pile of volleys you’ll score hits just isn’t viable for the Tyrian battlefield.

And that, along with the possibility that there are some magical effects that work with arrows and not bullets, is why guns and bows continue to coexist. Give it another century or maybe just a few decades for the invention of automatic rifled firearms, and that could well be overturned, but Tyrian military realities are different to European ones and thus should not be expected to do the same things.

Did you know that modern kevlar armor, while designed to stop bullets (at least certain types) cannot stop an arrow shot? Yet people don’t use bows that often anymore.

Why? Because a bow requires a lot of training to be used effectively, and lacks the range of modern firearms.

GW2 Firearms actually look like the old single-shot, loaded through muzzle, guns – though they fire as quickly as a semi-auto (or with some skills full-auto).

My best explanation is this: Firearms are new – they are not surpassing bows in deadliness yet, but since they are significantly easier to use, they are being used by some professions.

At the same time, bows may hold a slight edge on damage in certain areas, but require a lot of training to use, so they aren’t as commonly used. It’s also important to note that bows can be maintained and used without infrastructure – making an arrow is difficult, but doable by one self, while making gunpowder and bullets usually requires an infrastructure build up.

A ranger is more or less an archery master – in terms of lore, I think of people like Adian and Nente who lived in the countryside, away from most civilization, hunting to survive, and thus being extremely well trained with all bows- especially since they’re easier to maintain than guns.

Most of the gun rate of fire I tend to rationalise according to the Rule of Fun (firing five shots a minute wouldn’t be fun, after all, and that’s for muskets – muzzle-loading rifles you had to be good to get three shots a minute, and GW2 guns are apparently rifled). Rapid fire with pistols I think of as being like the pistol cavalry I referred to above – they actually have a whole brace of them and just, well, unload. (Where are they carrying all those pistols? Same place a ranger carries the dozens of throwing axes they might use in a single encounter.)

The ease-of-maintenance-in-the-woods aspect is, I think, probably as much of the reason for rangers disdaining firearms as the luddite angle – rangers are probably the profession most likely to go on long-distance scouting and exploration missions into the wilderness, and training in a weapon that can be scratch-built in the forest in a pinch is a definite plus.

Pfft Tanks indeed, surely the pinnacle of Charr technological warfare has to be the Cowtapult!

On a more serious note, I suppose from a lore standpoint (definately not in game) with regards to bows it may well depend on who/what is firing the bow.

Disredgarding any magical effects on top of any kind of projectile for a moment, if you imagine a longbow used on a Norn (e.g. Eir) lord only knows how hard one of those arrows would hit, especially if you happened to be Human sized or shorter as the target. I would imagine due to weight it would be pretty much impossible to weild a shield (never mind body armour) thick enough to keep one of those from removing a large vital chunk of your anatomy or getting yourself stapled to the nearest solid object behind you.

Now of course you could also apply the same logic to a rifle, and a Norn/Charr sized rifle weilder would likely be able to fire a much larger projectile while still being able to cope with the kickback due to their inate bulk/strength. Still I think from a racial perspective at least, the larger races at least would more than viably use bows against the other races.

Finally, regarding the tanks, surely a big problem the Charr would have, is actually getting them through the shiverpeaks (assuming the Norn didn’t mind them trundling past). They are so big I would think the terrain would cause them all sorts of problems as likely the passes themselves would be way more extreme than the game play friendly shaped maps of the game world we get.

The whole magic thing as stated does complicate things, hence disregarding it for the purposes of this post, more just thinking of the physical aspect of it.

ZenonSeth.5739:

Did you know that modern kevlar armor, while designed to stop bullets (at least certain types) cannot stop an arrow shot? Yet people don’t use bows that often anymore.

Doesn’t kevlar also not stop sniper rounds? Just a thought . . .

WreckSC.1835:

The whole magic thing as stated does complicate things, hence disregarding it for the purposes of this post, more just thinking of the physical aspect of it.

Sorry to point this out, but leaving magic out of how Tyria functions is sort of missing the point. Magic does exist, and is a tangible force. Elementalists, mesmers, and necromancers all do impossible things and if they were used in military organizations (which they are in some cases) then you’d see they’re much more potent than some guy with a rifle or bow.

One of the favorite things about the mission in Guild Wars: Nightfall where you storm Gandara was that your magic-users contributed a lot. The necromancer found “reinforcements” at one point