Guild Wars 2

Scriptures of Dwayna

115 BE: And when the world rang with the clanging of swords and did fire fall from the skies, Dwayna, goddess of life and air, heard the wailings and pleas of the weak.

And when the rumblings of war did not cease, came Her charge, Doric, who did prostrate himself at Her feet.

And cast She now a glance upon the war-torn lands and wasted flesh of the fallen, and with tears upon Her cheek did lay Her gentle hands upon the prostrate man. Then saith She unto to him and all Her charges, "Lay down thy weapons, and as I have done unto ye, so ye must do for your brethren. Offer protection to the weak. Give solace and shelter to those who need it. Be ye a salve to the wounded.

Historical Monument of Kings Watch

~100 BE: Doric is crowned king in Ascalon.

gw1:Timeline

1 BE: The Human Gods give magic to races of Tyria.

History of Tyria

1 BE to 0 AE: Wars broke out immediately as the magical races fought for dominance. So much destruction was wrought that humans found themselves at the edge of extinction. When all seemed lost, it was King Doric, the leader of the united human tribes himself, who made the long trek to Arah, the city of the gods, on the Orrian peninsula. He gained an audience with the creators and begged them to help, to stop the wars and bring peace to the land once again.

(In my own words) ~0 AE: The Gods split the magic into the five bloodstones, and uses King Doric’s blood to seal each of the stones, presumably ending King Doric’s life.

Isn’t the first event, 115 BE, the same as Doric’s audience with the Gods in 0 AE?
History of Tyria even pictures Doric “prostrated at Her feet” in 0 AE, exactly as described by Dwayna’s scriptures 115 BE.

Edited January 6th:
Doesn’t the first event in 115 BE, sound remarkably similiar to the one in 0 AE?
The scriptures (115 BE) uses the term “prostrated at Her feet”. History of Tyria depicts the 0 AE event with Doric kneeling/begging (would it be stretching a point to say prostrated?) at Her feet.

Though the descriptions aren’t identical, I find them so similiar that I’m wondering if they were both (at least initially) intended to refer to the same event; the “Bloodstones event”. And that the writers just slipped up with the dates.

I wouldn’t say they’re exactly the same. At the end of the Scripture Dwayna charges Doric to go out and do things, while the historical monuments suggest the act of sealing the bloodstone caused Doric’s death. It wouldn’t make sense for Dwayna to say those things if her solution to the war killed him before he could start her tasks.

In the latter case at 0 AE, Doric prostrated before (at least) three gods (believed to be Melandru, Dwayna, and Balthazar).

In the former case, this was before he was king (and possibly the event that led to his crowning).

So yes, he prostrated himself before (a) god(s) twice. If not more.

Let me rephrase my question.
Obviously, they appear to be two different events, but…

I remember reading the History of Tyria (in the game manual) before starting to play gw1 back in 2005 – and also the part about Dwayna being the leader of the Gods.
Then, when I first read the scriptures in-game, I immediately connected the two events as being the same. Since she’s the leader, I didn’t react to the wording of Dwayna’s scriptures. If anything, it supported the image I already had in my head of the bloodstones meeting.

It wasn’t before later through Prophecies that I read the plaque again and noticed the date. Ever since, I’ve been wondering if the writers had imagined the two as separate events, or just slipped up with the scriptures’ date.

What makes me think it could have been the same event that the writers may intitially have intended these events to be the same:

• Why isn’t the 116 BE event referred to on the Timeline nor anywhere else (neither the big war or the meeting itself?
• The last meeting is a very epic one. Initially mentioned in both History of Tyria and on the Historical Monument of King’s Watch. The bloodstones is one of the most central plots within the whole franchise. Why would they choose to add another, much less important event (judging by the number of times it’s been referenced to), to put on Dwayna’s plaque?
• Why would they have him prostrate himself twice? Doesn’t it take away from Doric’s character? You could say it adds an extra event, but it kinda devalues the other when it just shows us he begged a lot for help – and this first time seemingly without any sacrifice.

Each of the gods in GW1 had their own “info intro” called Scriptures of Dwayna, Melandru, etc. Even Kormir got one added, although Abaddon’s was never seen…for obvious reasons.

They were probably meant as short, mythic introductions into the character and history of each god. Perhaps the writer wanted to reiterate Dwayna’s role as merciful to humanity and used Doric again as an example. /shrugs

Abaddon had one

• None of the Scripture events were on the timeline, sans Kormir’s since that was the third campaign.
• Because the Scriptures, as Obsidian said, gives an introduction to the gods. But furthermore, this scripture event marks the supposed beginning of King Doric’s reign.
• Because he was a very religious man from a very religious nation (Orr)?

pros·trate
(pr?s?tr?t?)
tr.v. pros·trat·ed, pros·trat·ing, pros·trates
1. To put or throw flat with the face down, as in submission or adoration: “He did not simply sit and meditate, he also knelt down, sometimes even prostrated himself” (Iris Murdoch).
2. To cause to lie flat: The wind prostrated the young trees.
3. To reduce to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome: an illness that prostrated an entire family; a nation that was prostrated by years of civil war.

adj.
1. Lying face down, as in submission or adoration.
2. Lying flat or at full length.
3. Reduced to extreme weakness or incapacitation; overcome.
4. Botany Growing flat along the ground.

[Middle English prostraten, from prostrat, prostrate, from Latin pr?str?tus, past participle of pr?sternere, to throw down : pr?-, forward; see pro-1 + sternere, to spread, cast down; see ster-2 in Indo-European roots.]

pros?tra?tor n.

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

the attached picture shows Doric kneeling and begging, not prostrated.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Abaddon had one

Thank you Aaron, I missed that somehow. My apologies.

RE: Forgotten Legend:

It may not be “lying flat”, but I think it’s certainly more submissive than a simple kneeling.
“Traditional kneeling”, if I may call it that, typically has more flair. I think of kneeling as a bow: it’s polite and controlled, only more submissive than a bow (and begging does usually also have that controlled aspect to it).

On the painting, Doric appear to kneeled down to the ground, with hands thrown up in the air. As in showing dispair or weakness.

I fully agree it doesn’t tick off all the boxes for the definition of “prostrated”. But to me, if I should describe his position on the painting, I do lean more towards “prostrated” (due to the very submissive state) than kneeling or begging.

Maybe that’s just me, but I find all the terms referred to above to be a bit open for interpretation.

NB! Still not saying that it is the same event. Just saying it might have been intended to be once upon a time.

then let’s agree to disagree. i’ve said my piece and counted to three.

i think you may want to edit your OP to change your insight, though. saying that the two events may have originally been intended to be the same, is a lot more interesting from a development standpoint than hypothesizing that the events were in fact the same.

in other words, originally intending the events to be the same, and then changing their minds, would make for an interesting discussion of the design process. i’d be much more interested in the thought process behind the changing of the original ideas. and by thought process, i don’t mean methodology, but rather the train of thought, inspirations, and possibly homages or personal influences from the lore-writers.

Point well made. I’ve edited my OP to more correctly reflect what I wanted to say in the first place. Didn’t mean for it to come across that way, so thanks for pointing it out.

they are remarkably similar because there were many wars and in fighting before and after magic was released upon humans.

The first event describes the end to the first Guild Wars (115 BE) where Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr found an uneasy peace.

The second comes after the Reintroduction of magic and concerns the Second Guild Wars event as well as the battles between Abbaddon and his followers vs the other 5 gods and their followers.

Doric rose to power through his Wisdom and deep concern for his people. He first begged the gods to save humanity from themselves, and later to save them from the temptation of magic.

All three Guild Wars occurred post-Exodus. And only Kryta and Ascalon were part of the first two.

The event in the Scriptures of Dwayna is NOT a Guild War.

The Second Guild War was not when you describe either – that wasn’t a Guild War at all, but an unnamed war between various races and groups.

Yes, no conflict of any sort is known to have existed around the time of 115 BE.
Which is kinda the whole premise of my doubts about the timelines here.

Rather the opposite of conflict really; humans are fairly new to the continent (90 years). They’re spreading throughout Tyria. Discovering, colonizing.

It would also be in this period they first encountered the other races of Tyria: mainly the Forgotten and the Charr. 15 years later, in 100 BE, humans drive charr out of Ascalon. If they encountered any resistance earlier (charr or other races), one could certainly believe they’d at least keep together themselves.
Nothing keeps peace better than uniting against a common enemy!

And what was this great war about? Who was it against?
“The world rang with the clanging of swords and did fire fall from the skies (…) war-torn lands and wasted flesh of the fallen”

They must have been productive these first 100 years… managing to expand throughout all of Tyria, raising two great wars. Quite epic ones by the sound of it.

I disagree that there “was no conflict of any sort” in 115 BE.

As you mention, Ascalon is established in 100 BE. This is also the year Doric is crowned king. But do you really think they claimed from approximately Rin on south in less than a year? Both Rin and Drascir existed during Doric’s lifetime, and while Ascalon no doubt spread further during the 100 year reign, it’s unlikely that they established a kingdom in a single year when said kingdom is established in the middle of hostile territory.

On top of that, Angel McCoy has told us that the gift of magic was not a one-time thing, but was delivered over a century by all gods. Abaddon’s gift of magic was just the largest one, thus “the” gift of magic.

And on top of that, we have Balthazar’s description from the Orrian History Scrolls: “It was he who claimed Tyria for humanity; he who said the other races would be easy to defeat. It would not be the only time that the Master of War was wrong.”

This, to me, sounds like the events of a lesser gift of magic being given, during the fight with the charr to expand, which was instigated by Balthazar’s desire to see humanity rule all of the world.

It’s not that there’s no known conflict at those times. It’s that they’re not named conflicts.

Titus.4285:

If they encountered any resistance earlier (charr or other races), one could certainly believe they’d at least keep together themselves.
Nothing keeps peace better than uniting against a common enemy!

Look at how the scriptures are written:

Then saith She unto to him and all Her charges, "Lay down thy weapons, and as I have done unto ye, so ye must do for your brethren.

Let me rephrase:
The scriptures sounds to be referring to a civil war between humans. Not between humans and other races. I definately agree that it’s very likely to have been numerous conflicts in the years 205 BE to 0 AE. But not so much between humans, as between humans and other races.
In these years of massive expansion, they would have a common enemy(ies) to fight against: at least the charr, maybe to some degree also the grawl and forgotten (though the forgotten seem to have retreated peacefully up until the war against the human margonites).

As we saw when the charr attacked the human kingdoms, and now when we’re under attack by the dragons: Nothing keeps peace better than uniting against a common enemy. And that’s why I find it somewhat unlikely (but not impossible) that there was a civil war around 115 BE.

You presume that Dwayna means “other humans” and not “other living beings”.

Remember that Dwayna was trying to make a paradise in Tyria. She – like Melandru – were for world peace.

So why would she not try to create peace with other races? Why wouldn’t she speak as if all races, despite how different they are, are brothers and sisters in life?

I can’t claim my interpretation has any more of a basis than any other here, but… in the Prophecies manual (and maybe somewhere else, but that was the first I found double checking) they described Doric in 1-0 B.E. as “leader of the united human tribes”. Working on the basis of the fact that in the real world and Tyria neighboring tribes frequently war with each other, and that presumably we’d have heard of it if any leader united the humans before Doric, and on the basis of the Scripture of Dwayna… I think the most likely explanation is that the humans of the time probably were in conflict with each other, and that the scripture might be showing us the start of Doric’s efforts to unify them into the entity that would be known as Ascalon.

If the human kingdom came to exist solely at the behest of the leader of the gods to her servant, it would certainly explain why Doric’s bloodline is held in such high regard even fifteen centuries later- it would go one step further than believing the monarch was blessed by the gods (a tenuous proposition giving their current silence) to instead claim that the institution of monarchy, the very principle by which the Tyrian humans govern, was an act of a goddess through her servant.

Titus.4285:

Nothing keeps peace better than uniting against a common enemy.

But yet, wasn’t it when, and arguably because, the charr were faced with a common enemy that they fractured as a people, fell to fighting with one another, and lost Ascalon to the humans as a result?

That’s two very good posts Konig and Aaron. Can’t argue with neither.
What I think we can all agree on is that Doric’s life is a very clouded one. I would love to hear more about Doric in the future (more short stories please!).

while it may not be specifically noted that these are or are not “guild wars”

i’d like to note that the only accounted for Guild war is the Third one in 1013AE

Logically i would assume that a conflict requiring the intervention of the gods would constitute a very large scale War or the other Two Guild wars.

Swish.2463:

while it may not be specifically noted that these are or are not “guild wars”

i’d like to note that the only accounted for Guild war is the Third one in 1013AE

Logically i would assume that a conflict requiring the intervention of the gods would constitute a very large scale War or the other Two Guild wars.

The problem is A.) the only source we have on the first Guild War cites the broken bloodstones as a cause, which puts that conflict sometime after 0 A.E., B.) that same source says that guilds didn’t even exist until at least 100 A.E., and C.) again, same source says “The kings of Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr were not powerful enough to stop the conflict”. Kryta didn’t have a king until 358 A.E., as far as we know, though I admit in that case that the Mazdak clusterkitten may have changed that without our knowing.

Another thing (aka A.2):

Over the next hundred years, the human kingdoms prospered. Powerful groups grew up within each nation. These were known as guilds. It was these groups, these guilds, that held the real power in Tyria. Though there were kings and organizations that made the laws and regulated the land, it was the guilds that enforced these laws—or didn’t—as they saw fit. As these guilds grew, their influence began to overlap.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

Centuries after Year 0, the Bloodstones – broken in Year 0 – were shot out of the volcano, and sometime after that, the first Guild War began.

So the first Guild War began sometime after 200 AE.

I will note on the notion of Mazdak and the Krytan kingdom history per the timeline: Kryta did exist since Doric’s reign (Doric has always – since day one – been credited with being ruler of all three Tyrian human nations; that includes Kryta; Lion’s Arch, in fact, housed his royal palace); and from what we know, 300 AE is both the time of Elonian colonial expansion in the land as well as the beginning of the centaur war (began due to human expansion into centaur lands). So the situation seems that Orrians – via Mazdak – founded Kryta sometime between 100 BE and 1 BE, hostile to Orr as we’ve been told, and later it was colonized (perhaps conquered, perhaps sold, perhaps abandoned for a time) by Elona and then later rebelled and broke off from Elona. It’s not very clear, but hardly a clusterkitten – the only real clusterkitten of timeline lore is Scarlet’s timeline.