Guild Wars 2

So early descriptions of the Elder Dragon’s depicted them as ‘forces of nature.’ The Wiki says that their consumption of magic “isn’t their goal or intention” and is simply a side effect of how they function.

And yet when the minion of the Dragon speak for them – or when the dragons themselves speak directly such as in the case with Mordremoth – they seem to be very personally vindictive, prideful, aloof, and greedy. All of them have the same bellowing voices, declaring that the heroes cannot defeat them and that everyone should submit to their power.

I really think this ought to change in the future. Having the dragon’s spitefully interested in the destruction of the world already goes against the lore that was established for them. But it’s too late to fix that.

But maybe other dragon’s could have different personalities? Maybe a dragon who thinks what it is doing is good for everyone? Or one that is literally a consuming force of nature that doesn’t notice what it’s doing? Because that’s what the destroyers felt like from GW1.

Or maybe a dragon voiced by a woman or literally ANY voice that isn’t an electronically modified baritone rambling about how all should kneel before their unstoppable power.

Zhaitan and Mordremoth were basically the same person, just with different powers. Variety would be nice.

Tai Kratos.3247:

Maybe a dragon who thinks what it is doing is good for everyone?

That’s kinda already what we got with Mordremoth. We weren’t dealing with anything about spitefully destroying the world- Mordremoth expressed the belief that it was the world, full stop. It was simply waking up and taking back what belonged to it to begin with.

Zhaitan’s a harder call to make, since we only get a look through the obviously warped lens of its minions’ perception of it, but their belief is that Zhaitan was a god-figure who would inevitably rule the world- again, not spiteful destruction, just overweening ego.

Kralkatorrik, from the brief look into his psyche we got through Snaff’s eyes, does seem to be about consuming the world, but it’s the only one so far.

The problem, as I see it, isn’t that they’re not diverse- it’s that ArenaNet hasn’t told any stories that allow their differences to be explored. In the Personal Story the dragons were this great mystery, with the fact that they could even be successfully fought coming as a surprise, so obviously we didn’t get a good look there. Heart of Thorns, and even the Living World all the way back to Scarlet, is all a race against time with huge stakes, with plenty to juggle and no opportunity to take a minute and figure out our opponent beyond guessing at their next objective so we can start the race again. It’s not that Zhaitan and Mordremoth were the same character, but that they were different characters forced into the same role as backdrop to the story. Or, if you prefer, characters being treated like a force of nature, like a storm or an earthquake to be weathered, and with ramifications to handle afterwards, but not to be engaged directly. Neither dragon came into focus until the very end of their arc, by which point the means to destroy them happened to be on hand and all that was left to do was waltz in and end things.

Good point. I guess by destroy I meant consume.

We get much more personality from Mordremoth than we did from Zhaitan. And Mordremoth is all about everyone ‘serving’ him, and disdains any attempts to resist him. He suffers from a cliché villain god-complex.

Zhaitan has minions that speak coherently, such as the Eyes of Zhaitan. And they taunt you with a similar god-complex attitudes, boasting about their master and reminding you how weak you are.

So I think they both do still have the same personality, we just got more personal with Mordremoth.

And so it seems that Kralkatorrik has a similar god-complex. The Branded don’t speak, however. And so right now it seems like he is a little more bestial – the creation of the Dragonbrand almost seemed accidental.

Some might be different. A conversation that NPCs can have in Verdant Brink has a norn saying he would rather fight Jormag than Mordremoth because while Jormag simply corrupts, Mordremoth twists and controls. And it seems like Primordus doesn’t even use flesh: he simply creates his own minions and destroys. (Hence the name…? Haha.)

But they all so far share a god-complex. They all boast about their invincibility and taunt you with your mortality and weakness. And all of these giant world consuming creatures have the same kitten voices. How disappointing would it be to meet Primordus and he just tells you he can’t be beaten, reminds you you’re mortal, and has the same deep, bellowing voice that EVERY other big boss has in this game? So I guess that is more what I meant.

I think the difference here, though, is that the god complex is almost justified. As best we can currently tell, we’re talking about creatures that seem to be a couple dozen thousand millennia old at absolute minimum, that’re tied to the functioning of the cosmos in ways we’re only beginning to see the scale of, and that’ve wiped out all life that stood before them every previous time they felt like it. Not just wiped out, but repurposed to fit their ends. They alter the land, the climate, the environment, in their own image… basically, it’s not a god complex when you’re functionally a god.

So yeah, I’m not disappointed by it, and I don’t see it as a cliche. It would’ve been weird if they weren’t full of themselves before now. I am hopeful we’ll be moving past it, though, since all the other dragons have now been awake to see two of their number cast down. Whether they convince themselves it’s more power to go around and that the same fate could never happen to them, or start taking us seriously, we should at least have forced them to address us now, and that in turn could open up the space we need for the story to address them.

Tai Kratos.3247:

So early descriptions of the Elder Dragon’s depicted them as ‘forces of nature.’ The Wiki says that their consumption of magic “isn’t their goal or intention” and is simply a side effect of how they function.

I’ll just start by saying this:

The whole “forces of nature” has almost always been told to us to be “the Tyrian’s perspective” when talked about in interviews pre-release. This was a pretty heavy indication right off the bat that they quite simple aren’t forces of nature, but to the ignorant of their true nature, they seem to be.

We’ve learned quite a bit since the release of the game and when all those ‘forces of nature’ comments were abound, and while we’ve seen such comments even after Zhaitan’s death these were from common (or not-so-common) civilians – never those who study or combat the Elder Dragons (in)directly.

One such example of what we’ve learned that proves they’re not a force of nature is that originally we were given the impression that their corruption was a mere side-effect of their presence – the creation of the Dragonbrand, for example, was originally stated to have just “happened” to the land that passed under Kralkatorrik’s shadow – as if Kralkatorrik wasn’t intentionally corrupting the land, but that merely all it touches became twisted. Kind of like the story of Midas, who turned anything he touched to gold whether he wanted it to or not. But then in Edge of Destiny we learned that he proactively breathed on that land with golden fire, and it was that breath that twisted it – and that he turned this corruption mechanism on and off during the fight with Destiny’s Edge/Glint, and fled that bottom end of the Dragonbrand without making more of it.

Another of the things we’ve learned is that as they consume magic, they’re proactively doing other things via their minions. If their only goal was to balance magic, then there would be no need to do it from extremes or with hostile actions.

Tai Kratos.3247:

I really think this ought to change in the future. Having the dragon’s spitefully interested in the destruction of the world already goes against the lore that was established for them. But it’s too late to fix that.

This is where the term “subjective knowledge” comes into play.

Your claim of pre-established lore was an intentional false establishment. Like when you’re introduced to a character who seems to be a villain, acts villainously, but we later find is just a spy.

The Elder Dragons were never meant to be non-malicious, and we’ve known this before release – with the release of Edge of Destiny. That novel explicitly calls Kralkatorrik and Jormag out, directly, as being malicious. As well as every dragon champion introduced there.

Tai Kratos.3247:

Zhaitan and Mordremoth were basically the same person, just with different powers. Variety would be nice.

Going to have to WAY disagree here.

Each Elder Dragon shows to have its own unique personality – either directly like Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Mordremoth – or through their minions – like Zhaitan, Primordus, Jormag, and Mordremoth.

And Zhaitan and Mordremoth’s personalities, methods of attack, etc. are very different. Yes, many risen (especially the more proactive champions like the Eyes and Mouths) all had deep resonating voices and so did Mordremoth, but not most of the mordrem (in fact, the champions either didn’t talk or had a variety of voices – the three commanders + Faolain specifically).

To summarize what I believe the two Elder Dragon’s personalities and goals are:

Zhaitan

Some lines that I feel are indicative of Zhaitan’s persoanlity:

Captain Whiting during Sea of Sorrows states: “The rule of the living has ended. This is the time of the Elder Dragons. Thus begins the time of Zhaitan and of Orr. The day of their ultimate victory is close.”

Bronn Svaard in Sea of Sorrows states: “You’ll join me in the service of the dragon, and we will again fight as one. We will serve Zhaitan forever.” and later " You cannot fight the inevitable. I feel it in my bones-in my blood. Zhaitan’s will is my will. His strength is my strength. The world will be reborn by the dragon. Death is only the beginning."

Morgus Lethe in Edge of Destiny states: “I’m your destiny, you know. I’m the destiny of all living things.”

Risen Keeper of the Shrine from Cathedral of Silence story states “The Mists are filled with lies. Zhaitan is our only chance at immortality. Serve him!”

Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan during The Source of Orr states “Defilers! Poisoners! We see you. We know your foul intent. These waters must remain as they are—and you must die!” and “All the death around you. All those who have gone before you. Come to Zhaitan, and find everything you have lost. You can be with them again.”

These lines, combined with how Zhaitan structures his minions – having a clear ranking heirarchy that matches the minions’ past life – indicates two things:

First, Zhaitan offers/seeks immortality through undeath, and in turn reunion and not losing loved ones, for all things, wanted or not by the individual. Second, Zhaitan places himself at the seat of power like a king would – he sees himself as a ruler of an eternal undead nation.

In a way, Zhaitan can kind of fit that “I’m doing good for others” ideal, as what could be kinder than offering someone to never lose anyone they love? The only price is dying first and living under his rule.

The interesting bit is that one line by the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, calling the player and Trahearne “defilers”/“poisoners”. This shows that Zhaitan – and in turn his minions – does, indeed, believe he is in the right.

Mordremoth
Throughout HoT and the trailers, Mordremoth makes multiple direct mentions to him being the world and him being “home”. He also mentions that killing him will send all into oblivion. This indicates to me that he sees himself as the world and the sustainer of all life.

However, there’s an interesting twist to this:

Master of Wind (on Aerin): It didn’t occur to me until after the crash as I tried to understand what had just happened. There were signs, bursts of anger. He said odd things about believing the world must be destroyed.

This one line about Aerin’s rantings – and we know that Aerin’s rantings were, for some reason, tied to Mordremoth now – gives an interesting twist to Mordremoth because it shows that he doesn’t see himself as the current world but rather as the rightful and important world.

Similar to the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan’s line about defiling Zhaitan’s corruption, Mordremoth seems to view that which he’s not corrupted to be something that “must be destroyed”.

As I said, these two are very different. One is ‘giving’ what it views as “immortality” and “reunion with loved ones” while the other sees itself as a required aspect of living.

There’s another interesting thing about Mordremoth. When you fight the corrupted Faolain, one of her lines talks about bringing harmony. It’s possible that, from Mordremoth’s viewpoint, it’s the hero because it’s bringing peace and harmony and working towards a world where the Gaia hypothesis is real and all living things are working together in concert towards the betterment of all. Of course, it’s doing that by bringing all living things under its control and killing those it can’t bring under its control, but lesser creatures obviously can’t be trusted to do what’s right for the greater good if left to their own devices.

They are different in mentality. They rised and destroyed every civilizations for eons. It is just feeding for them not an evil thing. People kill animals to eat them, animals kill other animals or plants even some plants eat other plants or animals. Dragons eat magic and life force, this is how they works.

In pantheon theology, it is common for a force of nature or concept to be closely tied to at least a vaguely understandable personality, depending on how that force of nature or concept is viewed by the society. e.g.: In a scalding desert, a sun god may be seen as less forgiving than in a colder climate where the sun is a welcome gift. In which case the later could be seen as more benevolent and caring.