Guild Wars 2

In guild wars 1, dragons were… popular in Cantha, and drakes in Guild Wars 1 were also referred to as “A kind of dragon.” What if the Elder Dragon’s are simply VEERRRYY old dragons or drakes who were corrupted by the sheer amount of magic they consumed. And since,(Im assuming based on lore I read, not actual GW1) the saltspray dragons were the only ones who reacted to the magic from the Jade Wind by being “corrupted”, maybe they simply took in the godly magic released and became corrupted, or rather, much weaker elder dragon.

(Cut off, continuing from where I left off.)

And the reason strong drakes or “dragons” only exist on Cantha while Elder Dragons live on Tyria is because the elder dragons first gathered enough magic on Tyria they began corrupting the weaker dragons like Glint, making them sleep or hide or wherever the unfreed champions went when the dragons slept.

Except it has been hinted that Elder dragons were already in Tyria before the humans and their gods arrived in Tyria.

Given the fact it was Abbaddon who gave magic to the races of Tyria it is unlikely drakes or minor dragons have been able to feed on it before.

Actually, magic was present the last time the dragons were awake – it was sealed into the artifact that would later be broken into the Bloodstones, and then re-released by Abaddon.

As another point of information, though, pretty much everything in the Jade Sea and Echovald that survived the Jade Wind was corrupted – we’re specifically told about Saltsprays, kirin, and wardens, and the Rockhides at least were probably corrupted just as the Saltsprays.

It’s certainly quite possible that the dragons are related to drakes.

I think it has been stated by devs way back that drakes are not related to the elder dragons, but I can’t find where I read that. Still, even without that, I find it extremely unlikely that such world-shaking beings that seem to transcend all living beings in all but mortality would be of the same breed as your average river drake.

Well Glint in GW1 did have some characteristics of sand drakes and even dropped sand drake crests if you defeated her.

A-net describes the Dragons as primoridial powers. Maybe drakes are weaker dragons are just smaller fragments and offspring of these primordial powers.

That’s a whole lot of air you are building your bridge on – there’s really nothing to suggest an actual connection. It would be about as relevant to say moas are offspring of the elder dragons, because birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Nothing to connect them besides the fact that they are both dragons. Dragons and Elder Dragons.

Drakes are never referred to as dragons ingame. Dragons in Cantha were called dragons long before humanity knew the first thing about the elder dragons. Why were the elder dragons named such? Because they look similar. That’s not a connection, that’s a coincidence.

True, but there are at least two instances of Canthan dragons being referred to as drakes, and in addition, iirc, weapons of dragonslaying affected drakes before the release of Factions. The overlap, and the relationship, is there. The question is rather they are related to the Elder Dragons, and I think we’ll have to wait until more is known about Kuunavang to answer that satisfactorily… although it is worth noting that drakes are as susceptible to Elder Dragon corruption as any other form of wildlife.

what we know of the Elder dragons doesn’t come from humans it comes from dwarves and ancient jotun. And we don’t know the full extent of what they knew of the ED’s. So I wasn’t so much concerned of how the races thought of them as how A-net thinks of them. Everything Aaoron said, added to the fact that A-Net has descided to name them Elder Dragons. And then go onto say that dragons represent power in questions unrelated to the elder dragons. So there is at least the possibility that there is a connection

Anyway, my point is that if there is a connection, instead of thinking of dragons as animals and the ED’s as animals that gained power from some other means. maybe we should think of dragons more as elementals like in other fantasy universes. And then in this case, ED’s would be older, more powerful elemental powers where as other dragons would be younger and weaker versions. This way of looking at it would be supported by the fact that ED’s are primordial powers, A-net equates dragons to power, and Oola says we are all the embodiment of magic.

The argument that Oola may have just been talking about the playable races is countered with the fact that some of the playable races don’t even know their own origins and one is at least not native to the world Tyria. So A-net may have been giving us hints as to the nature of all creatures on Tyria. That since the mists are the building blocks of reality then all creatures are the embodiment of that fact.

Oh right, forgot about jotun and dwarves when writing that… still, somehow I think Anet was thinking about making Elder Dragons dragons, instead of making them related to existing dragons… At least to me, they seem worlds apart. And besides, even though the jotun and dwarves survived the previous dragon uprising, that doesn’t mean they ever knew a thing about their origins, much less now.

Now the dragons in Cantha, they seem very much flesh and blood to me. Powerful and magical, for sure, but flesh and blood (and scales). It also should be noted that the saltspray dragons lay eggs. That would very much be against the idea of them being elementals, no? So, “lesser dragons”, as in not Elder Dragons, are mortal animals, even if the word does sound like doing a disservice to them. The Elder Dragons, on the other hand, are more magical in their nature – see Zhaitan eating magical artifacts via special minions.

Absolutley. I do agree that “lesser dragons” are flesh and blood. I’m just trying to include more puzzle pieces into my over all theory. When Oola asks “What are we?” the answer is “We embody magic”. So according to my theory, (Which is admittedly only a theory and far from confirmed) we are all to some degree or another a type of elemental. The less powerful the elemental, the more flesh and blood it will be comprised of. We can see evidence of this in Flame legion that have gone through rituals to give them more power and magic. And the branded creatures that lay eggs. So even the processs of egg laying is acceptable for elemental creatures. It’s just that the eggs might also be elemental.

This is based on the fact that when Oola says “We embody magic” it is to the question “What are we?” I always remembered that because it didn’t flow to well. So if A-net was giving us a hint to a greater “truth” of Tyria, this may be that truth.

A couple things.

1. The more magic they eat the more powerful they are, no? And the longer they live the more they eat. And also, judging by the magical beings lifespans in the games more magic = longer life, So if we work with an idea that all dragons absorb magic, some just do a much more efficient job then others, we could assume that all Elder Dragons simply absorb magic and use that as their own.

2. To see that drake are sort of dragons, look at the original concept art for them in Guild Wars 1, and the actual wiki entry that states they are a type of dragon.

3. Never played factions, my bad for getting the Jade Wind stuff messed up.

4. All the dragons in the skies of Arah, yet we never get an explanation on how some dragon champions take dragon-like shapes while others keep old shapes or alter themselves only slightly. If there were dragons in Tyria and Elona before elder dragons reached full potential, that could explain why there are so many, by corrupting all other dragons on the continent. Cantha is a bit too far out for them to bother flying too when they got all that life in Tyria to corrupt already.

Beetle.2476:

A couple things.

1. The more magic they eat the more powerful they are, no? And the longer they live the more they eat. And also, judging by the magical beings lifespans in the games more magic = longer life, So if we work with an idea that all dragons absorb magic, some just do a much more efficient job then others, we could assume that all Elder Dragons simply absorb magic and use that as their own.

You can’t build a bridge without first having ground to start from. The only time a drake might devour something magical would be if an unlucky adventurer were to wear something magical, and they aren’t very good in digesting it.

Beetle.2476:

2. To see that drake are sort of dragons, look at the original concept art for them in Guild Wars 1, and the actual wiki entry that states they are a type of dragon.

The wiki line refers to the game technical species of the group of enemies. It has little to do with the lore.

4. All the dragons in the skies of Arah, yet we never get an explanation on how some dragon champions take dragon-like shapes while others keep old shapes or alter themselves only slightly. If there were dragons in Tyria and Elona before elder dragons reached full potential, that could explain why there are so many, by corrupting all other dragons on the continent. Cantha is a bit too far out for them to bother flying too when they got all that life in Tyria to corrupt already.

The most powerful dragon minions are corrupted to resemble their master, unless they are meant for a special task (such as the eyes and mouths of Zhaitan). The risen knights are a good example of a stage between the original and a dragon champion.

I wouldn’t look too deep into it. Drakes are simply the GW version of reptiles.

There is actually a large inconsistency between GW1 and GW2 in regards to differentiating reptiles and drakes. If you look at the designs, the GW1 crocodile resemble the GW2 river drake, while the GW1 dune reptiles resembles the GW2 ice drake. There for, we might as well condlude they just wanted to transform all lizard-like animals to drakes.

Beetle.2476:

drakes in Guild Wars 1 were also referred to as “A kind of dragon.”

This is mechanical only. It has absolutely no (confirmed) lore value. Just like how jotun, ettin, and yeti were all called ogres in GW1 – but they are all, very much, 1) not related and 2) not ogres.

Dustfinger, I think you’re drawing a pretty long bow with that theory there. It was known in GW1 that souls contained magical energy – this is probably what Oola is referring to.

yeah, maybe. but I have no problem refining it as we get more confirmed information.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Beetle.2476:

drakes in Guild Wars 1 were also referred to as “A kind of dragon.”

This is mechanical only. It has absolutely no (confirmed) lore value. Just like how jotun, ettin, and yeti were all called ogres in GW1 – but they are all, very much, 1) not related and 2) not ogres.

Well I would say GW1 concept art…. but that is also not confirmed lore. But a drake in Middle Sweden is a type of dragon. And compare the image of said dragon to drake concept art.

Confirmed or not really holds no value in discussions about unknown lore. It may hold a little value in the details but just saying a theory isn’t confirmed doesn’t devalue the theory. Only confirmed details that disprove the theory can really be valid in a topic like this.

Dustfinger.9510:

The less powerful the elemental, the more flesh and blood it will be comprised of. We can see evidence of this in Flame legion that have gone through rituals to give them more power and magic. And the branded creatures that lay eggs. So even the processs of egg laying is acceptable for elemental creatures. It’s just that the eggs might also be elemental.

This is based on the fact that when Oola says “We embody magic” it is to the question “What are we?” I always remembered that because it didn’t flow to well. So if A-net was giving us a hint to a greater “truth” of Tyria, this may be that truth.

To counter your theory: Shiro Tagachi’s Shiro’ken creations as well as ghosts all seem to be of the opposite effect where they’re more powerful to be flesh and blood rather than some sort of object like metal or stone (hence why Shiro returned to his actual body rather than his possessing of Shiro’Ken bodies, and why spirits who can barely influence the physical would become stronger as undead than as animated objects). It’s an equally large stretch as using the Flame Legion, who are just fanatically obsessed with flame – that’s more of them seeking to become flame, rather than becoming flame because they’re becoming stronger.

Also, that question is quite fine. Do you expect it to be “Who are we” or something? Because I must be missing why it “didn’t flow so well.”

However, personally, I think Oola’s line is in reference to the soul. Souls seem to be used as energy (eaten by demons and scarabs as food, used by mursaat to seal the Door of Komalie, death of such empowers Dhuum, used to animate Shiro’ken, ritualism, etc. etc.), and magic itself is energy as well. I suspect, personally, that souls are an embodiment of magic – hence, to me, Oola’s line is not about the flesh and blood, but the soul of beings being an embodiment of magic.

Beetle.2476:

A couple things.

1. The more magic they eat the more powerful they are, no? And the longer they live the more they eat. And also, judging by the magical beings lifespans in the games more magic = longer life, So if we work with an idea that all dragons absorb magic, some just do a much more efficient job then others, we could assume that all Elder Dragons simply absorb magic and use that as their own.

2. To see that drake are sort of dragons, look at the original concept art for them in Guild Wars 1, and the actual wiki entry that states they are a type of dragon.

3. Never played factions, my bad for getting the Jade Wind stuff messed up.

4. All the dragons in the skies of Arah, yet we never get an explanation on how some dragon champions take dragon-like shapes while others keep old shapes or alter themselves only slightly. If there were dragons in Tyria and Elona before elder dragons reached full potential, that could explain why there are so many, by corrupting all other dragons on the continent. Cantha is a bit too far out for them to bother flying too when they got all that life in Tyria to corrupt already.

1. Problem is that no drakes are known to eat magic. Furthermore, most magical beings are elementals or demons of some sort.

2. See previous post (yes, I know this is written before my previous post where I only responded to the OP). The GWW entry on “drakes are a type of dragon” is meant is solely and purely in a mechanical sense. No lore has been attached to that as of yet. And given the remodeling for GW2, it seems like that’s not lore.

4. Personal theorycrafting is that Tequatl and the others are made similar to Abominations – they’re sewn or magically crafted together to make large dragons. Perhaps using Leviathan bones (those giant fishy bones found in waters throughout, or decorating Dhuum’s Last Stand). The Shatterer is an earthen construct, while the Claw of Jormag seems to be a mix of bone and ice – the bone likely coming from those large semi-draconian bones seen in the Far Shiverpeaks in GW1.

I suspect those gargantuan bones seen in abundance in GW1 – especially the Crystal Desert – are remnants of ancient, fallen, Elder Dragons – or rather, the race the Elder Dragons are born from. Original dragons, and that the Elder Dragons could be viewed as “Dragon Lords” “Dragon Kings” or whatever you want to call them (various different fantasy stories call them similar things, but all mean the same thing): powerful alpha dragons that live longer, are stronger, and are far more crueler.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

To counter your theory: Shiro Tagachi’s Shiro’ken creations as well as ghosts all seem to be of the opposite effect where they’re more powerful to be flesh and blood rather than some sort of object like metal or stone (hence why Shiro returned to his actual body rather than his possessing of Shiro’Ken bodies, and why spirits who can barely influence the physical would become stronger as undead than as animated objects). It’s an equally large stretch as using the Flame Legion, who are just fanatically obsessed with flame – that’s more of them seeking to become flame, rather than becoming flame because they’re becoming stronger.

Hmm, creations are tricky because we really have no standard for how powerful they are supposed to be. And further because they aren’t mist creations their artificial creations so they wouldn’t be subject to this potential rule. Ghosts, we seem to have conflicting evidence for. Duka Barradin for instance is beaten in his ghostly form then posses a stone staute and is clearly more powerful than minutes before. So I wouldn’t take too much stock in extreme example that seem to fall so far out of the “natural bounds” of the theory. Flame legion, you may absolutely be right about the cause and effect of their intentions. But reguardless of their intentions, we see it in many mobe around the world. icebrood, flame legion. both get more elemental as they get more power. So we could look at it as coincidence, but I don’t like to ascribe too many things to coincidence when ther’s so much open room in the lore.

Also, that question is quite fine. Do you expect it to be “Who are we” or something? Because I must be missing why it “didn’t flow so well.”

I would expect an answer of “We embody magic” to come from a question more similar to “What do we do?” rather than “What are we?”

However, personally, I think Oola’s line is in reference to the soul. Souls seem to be used as energy (eaten by demons and scarabs as food, used by mursaat to seal the Door of Komalie, death of such empowers Dhuum, used to animate Shiro’ken, ritualism, etc. etc.), and magic itself is energy as well. I suspect, personally, that souls are an embodiment of magic – hence, to me, Oola’s line is not about the flesh and blood, but the soul of beings being an embodiment of magic.

Also valid. To support this, i’d point to the inquest who power their machines with souls.

With the Barradin instance, I’d say that’s more a case of him just possessing something THAT large – the pure weight of the stone is what gives him the advantage, added onto the Foefire speciality.

For the Icebrood and other dragon minions – Icebrood get more elemental as time progresses, but take note that the Icebrood Colossi are actually very weak, and they’re just about the final stages of icebrood norn. For dragon minions, it’s actually “they become more draconic as they become more powerful” according to the Art of Guild Wars 2 – if I’m remembering correctly that is. Key note with that would be, for example, Risen Knights and the dragon champions or Branded Lieutenants.

As to the question part: I guess that makes sense, though asking the question “what do we do?” makes no sense, since we can do a lot of things. Rather, it’s not the question but the answer that’s out of place – the answer should be “we are the embodiment of magic” – which is what Oola herself says. In other words, the PC was answering in short, improper, form there.

As to Inquest powering golems with souls – that was, in my mind, one of the “etc. etc.” :P There are many more examples – and not just Inquest who power golems with souls (Oola did this to herself). There’s even the theory that Jade constructs of the mursaat were powered/animated by souls, given various reasons (namely the mursaat tokens and the direction of mursaat magic).