Dragons, who are they

Dragons, who are they

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Posted by: ReSpect.7125

ReSpect.7125

The other day I sat and was thinking about the current story that is going on in Tyria. Then something struck my mind. Names! How do we know the knew dragons name is Mordemoth? Same goes with the other. Well, deep sea dragon dont have a “real” name yet. Zhaitan, his name we have herd countless times. Jormags name we have herd many times too. Then we have Kralkatorik (the shattere). I rarely do the shatterer world event. Do we get the name from there? Or maybe gw1 or any book? Then Primodus, he havent even entered the Tyria we can explore, how do we know his name? Last we have Mordemoth, where have we got his name?

Thanx in advance

Zandra Zvift lvl 80 human elementalist
Good luck and may the six watch over you

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Posted by: Heraldusluminare.2946

Heraldusluminare.2946

That… is actually a really good question.

I’ve always assumed the dragons were given names by the most ancient of races (Forgotten, Mursaat, Dwarves, etc.), which were later handed down to the younger races. If I understand correctly, none of the dragons have ever specifically announced their names to the dis-regardable mortal races. But perhaps they have through their champions?

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Posted by: Mularc Templare.5063

Mularc Templare.5063

From memory is depends on the Dragon. We are told Zhaitan occurs in the legends of the Dwarves, but it’s not said where they got that name from. I would agree with Herald about the ancient races.

To answer specifically Mordremoth, we know his name from an attack used by a boss in the CoE explorable dungeon; it’s called Teeth of Mordremoth and has an earth-based feel about it. It’s important to note that thus far, our player characters have no idea as to the name of the next dragon; it’s not been mentioned in-universe thus far.

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Posted by: ElysianEternity.6215

ElysianEternity.6215

The oldest mention of Zhaitan’s name was discovered in dwarven records by the Priory IIRC. A npc in Malchor’s leap mentions that.
Also his minions constantly call him by this name, so maybe he named himself and the dwarves took note of it. Or maybe he adopted the name.

Primordus was named by dwarves to my knowledge too.
Kralk’s name was given to us by Glint.
Jormag I forgot. Woops.

Mordremoth we don’t know yet.
The DSD most likely does have a name, we just haven’t found any records on it yet or heard anyone refer to it. It could have an arabic name if the Largos decided to name it or maybe it has been given a name by the krait (something with ss?).

Or maybe one of the ancient races named the DSD and Mord but we just haven’t stumbled upon any records mentioning these names yet. Mord’s name we only know as players because of Subject Alpha’s move anyway. ;P

(edited by ElysianEternity.6215)

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

There is a rather big difference between player knowledge and character knowledge.
Technically our characters doesn’t even know about DSD (it is implied that it exists in the game, but only very obscure and most likely not possible for in-universe characters to figure out it is an ED), but the players does.

You seem to be talking about character knowledge.
And that is basically: Someone in Tyria gave them that name, and as such, people call it by that name.
Same way as we call massive storms different names in the real world.

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square

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Posted by: Heraldusluminare.2946

Heraldusluminare.2946

Beware the wrath of… Bubbles!

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Posted by: ReSpect.7125

ReSpect.7125

+1 to Herald for DSD name

Why didnt Scarlet tried an alliance between krait and quaggan? Both races got chased away from their homes due to the Bubbles. If Scarlet picked her words right it should be possible. Imaging swimming thru water with kraits and hostile Quaggans.

Zandra Zvift lvl 80 human elementalist
Good luck and may the six watch over you

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

SOME people know about DSD, or suspect it. However few in the public do.

An npc in the priory explicitly goes “Five races vs 6 dragons…”

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Posted by: Dondagora.9645

Dondagora.9645

I made a topic a while back that connected the name Mordremoth to the unknown and unseen[at the time] plant/jungle dragon. Assuming the connection to Sylvari and the jungle dragon was correct, along with the name provided in the Crucible of Eternity, it could be that Mordremoth comes from Mordred of Arthurian legend given the celtic and arthurian influence on the sylvari.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

SOME people know about DSD, or suspect it. However few in the public do.

An npc in the priory explicitly goes “Five races vs 6 dragons…”

That does not mean that they know anything about Bubbles or Mordremoth beyond “at one point there were two more dragons”. Their source merely states that the jotun recorded six dragons during the last rise. It wouldn’t necessarily say that one was out in the ocean, or that it had water-based minions.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

I’d have to find the book, but I recall one mentioning a “rumored dragon” in the sea.

They might not know about ‘bubbles’ directly, but they know at least one more dragon is out there (post mordi waking up).

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I’d have to find the book, but I recall one mentioning a “rumored dragon” in the sea.

They might not know about ‘bubbles’ directly, but they know at least one more dragon is out there (post mordi waking up).

You’re probably remembering the Movement of the World- to the best of my knowledge, it’s the only source that mentions Bubbles. The problem is, while it was originally presented as an in-universe document, it was from early pre-release and several parts of it have changed. We now have to either accept that and see it as an out-of-universe, slightly unreliable guideline, or else say that the greatest historian of the Priory is confused on the sequence of world-shaking catastrophes that had profound implications for his order.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

No, there is a book in DR (probably in the priory outpost) which talked about the Elder Dragons. That’s the one I’m remembering.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

It only went over Primordus, Jormag, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik.

Text on the wiki:http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Elder_Dragons

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Taohaza.4205

Taohaza.4205

Also his minions constantly call him by this name, so maybe he named himself and the dwarves took note of it. Or maybe he adopted the name.

I don’t think Elder Dragon would adopt name given by a ‘food’ race.

About Bubbles. I’d say, one of ocean races would mention why they left their homes.

I’m more curious about what Elder Dragons are.

(edited by Taohaza.4205)

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Posted by: ReSpect.7125

ReSpect.7125

I would realy like if they released ‘bubbles’. We have fought dragons in the sky (Zhaitan, desert (the shatterer) and arctic (Jormag). Would be realy fun with an underwater fight. This would result in a dragonfight where you can attack it in mele. Probably gonna take along time until then.

Zandra Zvift lvl 80 human elementalist
Good luck and may the six watch over you

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Jormag, Primordus, and Zhaitan’s names come from dwarven legends – and they’re called such by their minions (well, Jormag and Zhaitan are) so its likely that the dwarves got the names from minions going “FOR <Dragon’s name>!”. Kralkatorrik’s name comes from Glint. Mordremoth we only know from out of game stuff – no NPC has mentioned it.

There is a rather big difference between player knowledge and character knowledge.
Technically our characters doesn’t even know about DSD (it is implied that it exists in the game, but only very obscure and most likely not possible for in-universe characters to figure out it is an ED), but the players does.

The players do seem to know of the DSD. At the end of the personal story, in the My Story tab, it says there are four left.

Mordremoth was not awake at that time, so the PC most likely wouldn’t be referring to a creature with 0 influence beyond Inquest research.

Only the Priory and Inquest know of Mordremoth (Order of WHispers by extension of spies in the Priory), but they likely didn’t know its state of being. Well, Inquest might’ve.

I’d have to find the book, but I recall one mentioning a “rumored dragon” in the sea.

They might not know about ‘bubbles’ directly, but they know at least one more dragon is out there (post mordi waking up).

You’re probably remembering the Movement of the World- to the best of my knowledge, it’s the only source that mentions Bubbles. The problem is, while it was originally presented as an in-universe document, it was from early pre-release and several parts of it have changed. We now have to either accept that and see it as an out-of-universe, slightly unreliable guideline, or else say that the greatest historian of the Priory is confused on the sequence of world-shaking catastrophes that had profound implications for his order.

There’s some quaggans in Timberline Falls that mention fleeing an Elder Dragon, actually. The Movement isn’t the only source. Specifically, the skill point quaggan in Melaggan’s Grotto – sadly, she doesn’t mention it on re-talking.

_ It’s not a complicated story. Quaggans have lived peacefully beneath the waters for many generations. When the dragons spewed their filth across Tyria, the quaggans had to flee. _
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Villager_%28Mellagan%27s_Grotto%29

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Right, forgot about her. Mind, the quaggans’ recounting of history is extremely frustrating… but that’s a subject for another thread.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: bullyrook.2165

bullyrook.2165

The real question is: did the dragons name themselves, or was it the races of Tyria?

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

The minions may simply be repeating the name of their master that they learnt before they were corrupted. It doesn’t mean that the dragons have adopted that name.

It may be that the dragons have their own names for themselves that they haven’t chosen to share with anyone, or that they simply don’t care about names. Dragons may not even understand names.

People don’t generally name themselves. If a dragon decided it wanted a title I imagine it might choose something prosaic.

“I am Fire, I am Death.”

(edited by Wanderer.3248)

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

The minions may simply be repeating the name of their master that they learnt before they were corrupted. It doesn’t mean that the dragons have adopted that name.

There are cases in SoS where sailors who died in the Rise of Orr referred to Zhaitan as Zhaitan, so the name definitely comes with the corruption. Rather the dragons named themselves, or took the names given them by one of the earliest races they destroyed, is an open question, and unlikely to be answered imo.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

A lot of the risen died before even knowing that Elder Dragons even existed, let alone Zhaitan’s name. Not just in SoS but in-game. All Orrian risen are such cases.

So it’s unlikely that the dragon minions are just going “this is what my enemy calls my master, so I’ll call him that too” (what if we start calling the dragons “Sir Poopyface”? will the minions go “All hail Sir Poopyface!” too? :P).

As to “people don’t generally name themselves” – that’s exactly what every sylvari does.

Whether the Elder Dragons named themselves though is fully unknown, just as their age is.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: ReSpect.7125

ReSpect.7125

Just to sumarise about my first question.
How does we know the names of the ED?
Zhaitan=risen, PS and events/happenings in Orr.
Jormag=the Jormag world event.
Kralkatorik=Glint
Primodus=the dwarfs
Mordremoth=an attack by subject alfa
DSD=unknown (or Bubbles from the forum)

Is this right?

Zandra Zvift lvl 80 human elementalist
Good luck and may the six watch over you

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Can add “the dwarves” to Jormag and Zhaitan. We know of their names by both minions and dwarven legends.

And alpha, not alfa. But yeah, that’s right otherwise.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: bullyrook.2165

bullyrook.2165

A lot of the risen died before even knowing that Elder Dragons even existed, let alone Zhaitan’s name. Not just in SoS but in-game. All Orrian risen are such cases.

So it’s unlikely that the dragon minions are just going “this is what my enemy calls my master, so I’ll call him that too” (what if we start calling the dragons “Sir Poopyface”? will the minions go “All hail Sir Poopyface!” too? :P).

As to “people don’t generally name themselves” – that’s exactly what every sylvari does.

Whether the Elder Dragons named themselves though is fully unknown, just as their age is.

My point exactly. What if something created and named the dragons? We know the Six are not true gods, they are only beings of power that seemed to have risen in the wake of an older pantheon. Could the case be the same for the dragons?

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Posted by: Stooperdale.3560

Stooperdale.3560

Anything could be true for the origins of the elder dragons. There is still very little known about the elder dragons at the end of the personal story. It’s quite possible that the dragons are trying to hide their history as it would diminish their god-like status. We even see Zaitan trying to destroy some dwarven records in the personal story.

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Posted by: Captain Unusual.9163

Captain Unusual.9163

Anything could be true for the origins of the elder dragons. There is still very little known about the elder dragons at the end of the personal story. It’s quite possible that the dragons are trying to hide their history as it would diminish their god-like status. We even see Zaitan trying to destroy some dwarven records in the personal story.

I doubt they really care about their “god-like status”. They’re more akin to a force of nature, rather than a sapient being with an ego. Maybe their servants care about that, but the dragons themselves likely don’t. We really don’t know how smart the dragons themselves are, actually, versus how smart their servants are. I actually assume the dragons aren’t actually terribly smart, or interested in doing much beyond finding a place they like that fits their aspect, and then just slowly expanding from there. Hence why Zhaitan just sits in Orr, and his servants plague the world. Same with Jormag and Kralk and Bubbles.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

My point exactly. What if something created and named the dragons? We know the Six are not true gods, they are only beings of power that seemed to have risen in the wake of an older pantheon. Could the case be the same for the dragons?

Not everything has to be made by something more powerful.

And the Six are true gods – gods in the polytheist context, not the monotheist context. And only half of the gods are indicated to have “risen in the wake of an older pantheon” – nothing says Melandru, Dwayna, or Abaddon’s predecessor had predecessors (or Lyssa, Balthazar, and Dhuum for that matter, but Lyssa’s outright stated to have “lost origins,” Balthazar has a half-brother, and Dhuum looks too human IMO – so I think that only Dwayna and Melandru are part of the original pantheon, which I hold because there are statues of female winged humanoids throughout the Rift, which is the center of all things).

And nothing really prevents the Elder Dragons to have been born directly from the Mists – which is outright stated to be the inevitable origin of all things (all geneologies can trace themselves back to someone or something born from the Mists, basically).

I doubt they really care about their “god-like status”. They’re more akin to a force of nature, rather than a sapient being with an ego. Maybe their servants care about that, but the dragons themselves likely don’t. We really don’t know how smart the dragons themselves are, actually, versus how smart their servants are. I actually assume the dragons aren’t actually terribly smart, or interested in doing much beyond finding a place they like that fits their aspect, and then just slowly expanding from there. Hence why Zhaitan just sits in Orr, and his servants plague the world. Same with Jormag and Kralk and Bubbles.

Risen basically treat ZHaitan as their god. Sons of Svanir and sentient Icebrood do the same for Jormag. They very much do have personalities – as we can see from their minions whom are in a hivemind like state with their dragons, as well as we can see from Edge of Destiny directly with Jormag and Kralkatorrik – we don’t have much on those personalities, but we know the Elder Dragons have active goals, thoughts, and intentions, which indicates the existence of personalities.

The comparisons to forces of nature everyone from Anet or in-game gives is more about how they appear to the average Tyrian, who do not see these things that indicate the ED have personalities. To the average Tyrian, the Elder Dragons are little more than forces of nature, because they’re so unknown to them.

Also, if the Elder Dragons minions are smart, then the Elder Dragons themselves are too. Elder Dragons know everything their minions know and ever knew even before becoming corrupted.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: ReSpect.7125

ReSpect.7125

Im at uni so it would be pretty nice to be an ED. During tests I just threathen my minios tto study so I can chill on a cafe or somethimg. Thou it probably would be kinda tricky to be in the classrooms :/

Zandra Zvift lvl 80 human elementalist
Good luck and may the six watch over you

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Posted by: bullyrook.2165

bullyrook.2165

My point exactly. What if something created and named the dragons? We know the Six are not true gods, they are only beings of power that seemed to have risen in the wake of an older pantheon. Could the case be the same for the dragons?

Not everything has to be made by something more powerful.

True, but not all things are the creation of random chance.

And the Six are true gods – gods in the polytheist context, not the monotheist context.

Incorrect, they are worshiped as true gods, but seeing as they played no role in the creation of Tyria – even though gw1 lore said otherwise – or any of its known races that makes them no different than exceptionally powerful demons, giants, dragons, or shiny rocks.

And only half of the gods are indicated to have “risen in the wake of an older pantheon” – nothing says Melandru, Dwayna, or Abaddon’s predecessor had predecessors (or Lyssa, Balthazar, and Dhuum for that matter, but Lyssa’s outright stated to have “lost origins,” Balthazar has a half-brother, and Dhuum looks too human IMO – so I think that only Dwayna and Melandru are part of the original pantheon, which I hold because there are statues of female winged humanoids throughout the Rift, which is the center of all things).

Nothing says that Melandru, Dwayna, or Abaddon’s predecessor don’t have predecessors.

And nothing really prevents the Elder Dragons to have been born directly from the Mists – which is outright stated to be the inevitable origin of all things (all geneologies can trace themselves back to someone or something born from the Mists, basically).

Where did you get that info?

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

As I recall, Melandru is the oldest of the gods, and Charr even have a theory/myth that she created Tyria.

We know Balthazar had a father (likely to be a god), and a half brother. Hell, the ‘gods’ could be part of an entire race, of which we know of a handful.

(edited by Kalavier.1097)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Incorrect, they are worshiped as true gods, but seeing as they played no role in the creation of Tyria – even though gw1 lore said otherwise – or any of its known races that makes them no different than exceptionally powerful demons, giants, dragons, or shiny rocks.

What defines “god” then?

Because, in the GW context, the best definition we have for god is “unaging being of immense power who, though can be supplanted, their power cannot be destroyed.” This is what the Six Gods are, at least. But what defines a god? The Six Gods are more than most polytheistic gods – a polytheist god is usually defined best as “an unaging being of immense power whom rules a higher realm (e.g., Olympus) or the afterlife” – the Six Gods are this and more (their power cannot be destroyed).

Nothing says that Melandru, Dwayna, or Abaddon’s predecessor don’t have predecessors.

But nothing hints that they do, either. So why presume something exists when we hold no evidence to the contrary?

Furthermore, the existence of winged female humanoid statues within the Rift (the center of all things with no sense of time progression), while the oldest and leader of the gods (Melandru and Dwayna respectively) share that depiction (winged female humanoids). This hints that if there was anything that could be called the “original Six Gods” – it’d be winged female humans, ergo Dwayna and Melandru most likely amongst them.

Where did you get that info?

Prophecies manual. The very first piece of lore on the Mists we ever learned.

Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Hell, I’ve heard theories in which Melandru may have been from an ENTIRELY different set of ‘gods’, IE the gods the Jotun mention or such.

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Posted by: Tuomir.1830

Tuomir.1830

I still hold on to my theory of the Dragons being a completely different life form, primordial beings tied to Tyrian mundus, not originating from the mists, incapable of entering it themselves, and naturally opposed to beings originating from the mists. However, as there’s nothing to or against that theory as far as I see, I won’t be driving it forwards as of yet.

Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.

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Posted by: bullyrook.2165

bullyrook.2165

Incorrect, they are worshiped as true gods, but seeing as they played no role in the creation of Tyria – even though gw1 lore said otherwise – or any of its known races that makes them no different than exceptionally powerful demons, giants, dragons, or shiny rocks.

What defines “god” then?

Because, in the GW context, the best definition we have for god is “unaging being of immense power who, though can be supplanted, their power cannot be destroyed.” This is what the Six Gods are, at least. But what defines a god? The Six Gods are more than most polytheistic gods – a polytheist god is usually defined best as “an unaging being of immense power whom rules a higher realm (e.g., Olympus) or the afterlife” – the Six Gods are this and more (their power cannot be destroyed).

Good question. But Abaddon was destroyed after his power was taken from him. Although the powers they possess may be mighty and indestructible, the beings that claim to be gods in this game are no different than a wizard with a magic staff. Only that in this case the “staff” is their own godly powers. In other words: these are simple human-like beings charged with a divine energy from an unknown source. We see an example of this in Baelfire, whom was close to ascending to the level of one of the Six. If he had succeeded in accumulating the power to match one of them, would that have made him a true god? I think not. As is, the Dragons are closer to being gods than the Six.

Nothing says that Melandru, Dwayna, or Abaddon’s predecessor don’t have predecessors.

But nothing hints that they do, either. So why presume something exists when we hold no evidence to the contrary?

Furthermore, the existence of winged female humanoid statues within the Rift (the center of all things with no sense of time progression), while the oldest and leader of the gods (Melandru and Dwayna respectively) share that depiction (winged female humanoids). This hints that if there was anything that could be called the “original Six Gods” – it’d be winged female humans, ergo Dwayna and Melandru most likely amongst them.

Very possible. But that still doesn’t convince me that these two are among the first of their kind.

Where did you get that info?

Prophecies manual. The very first piece of lore on the Mists we ever learned.

Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.

Key words “it is said”. Need I remind you that in GW1 it was said that the Six created Tyria, but that turned out to be false. From the sounds of it, I’d be more willing to accept the idea that the Mists have a will of their own.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I think you’re grossly understating the Six Gods there. Firstly, though Gaheron may have claimed such he was nothing close to a god – the gods’ divinity is so bright it blinds onlookers, and their power is indestructible, as in it has to exist, aka it cannot not exist, meaning there must be Six Gods, in that without a host (the god itself) it will go chaotic and threaten to destroy a huge place (Abaddon was killed in the very heart of the Realm of Torment, but still his power threatened to destroy Tyria). Gaheron lacks both. Also, Abaddon was killed then his power taken – not the other way around. As it stands, it may be impossible to take the power of a living god (the only possible case of this known would be Grenth overthrowing Dhuum, but Grenth was already a demigod, so he’s an exception to the rule from the get go). And he was only able to be attacked because there were chains made by another god (Balthazar, specifically) used to make him vulnerable (and the five gods blessed the PCs in Nightfall just before fighting Abaddon, though whether this had any actual affect we don’t know – and Abaddon was weakened, having just gotten enough power back after being beaten by five gods to break his chains, though they were able to be put right back on by players).

So you’re what you’re effectively saying is “the six gods are just human-like beings who are basically capable of destroying the cosmos” and then saying “a charr who was capable of transforming into a larger form and was very powerful indeed was close to becoming akin to the Six Gods”. Yeah, sorry but no.

As to the Mists, the difference between that line and the bit about the gods creating Tyria is that the latter is written from an in-universe perspective while the former’s perspective is unknown (likely out of universe). Since that doesn’t convince you, how about the words of Jeff Grubb, Lore Continuity Designer:

Jeff Grubb: The Mists are the building blocks of reality, the proto-reality that exists between the worlds. It is where we find afterlifes and the homes of the various gods and other powerful entities. The Mists also resonate from the worlds around them, such that they form bits of their own reality – islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds.

Less specific, but same meaning. This is a piece of GW1 lore that has been unchanged. And if you go questioning all of GW1 lore just because History of Tyria is practically fully wrong, then you might as well just pretend GW1 doesn’t exist. But the thing is, it does, and until we have actual proof to say otherwise, what is said in GW1 is the case.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

Tyrian gods aren’t all powerful creators. They’re more like Greek or Norse Gods – virtually immortal (although they can be defeated) and with vast, but limited power. The implication is that no mortal can obtain that power, no matter how good their gear is.

If Tyrians ever invented an omnipotent deity, then they might claim that the gods were not “real” gods, in comparison. But in comparison to mortals, even the most powerful mortals, they are gods.

(edited by Wanderer.3248)

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

Tyrian gods aren’t all powerful creators. They’re more like Greek or Norse Gods – virtually immortal (although they can be defeated) and with vast, but limited power. The implication is that no mortal can obtain that power, no matter how good their gear is.

This is however proven completely false, seeing as Kormir became a God, and she was very much Human (and thus mortal). So technically mortals CAN obtain that power.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I think what Wanderer meant in saying that is that no mortal can become as powerful as a god without replacing one of the Six Gods. I.e., Gaheron would never reach true godhood.

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Posted by: bullyrook.2165

bullyrook.2165

I think what Wanderer meant in saying that is that no mortal can become as powerful as a god without replacing one of the Six Gods. I.e., Gaheron would never reach true godhood.

That is untrue. The wiki claims that Baelfire was well on his way. It is very possible he would have succeeded if given enough time. You keep claiming that there can never be more or less than six gods, but how did they become gods in the first place? I am of the mind that the power each god possesses was formed independent of its current host somewhere in the Mists and was then manifested in a mortal being, making them immortal until someone with plot-armor comes along.

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

That is untrue. The wiki claims that Baelfire was well on his way. It is very possible he would have succeeded if given enough time. You keep claiming that there can never be more or less than six gods, but how did they become gods in the first place? I am of the mind that the power each god possesses was formed independent of its current host somewhere in the Mists and was then manifested in a mortal being, making them immortal until someone with plot-armor comes along.

And what did the wiki quote as a source for that information?
Sadly the wiki is rather untrustworthy when it comes to lore nowadays.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

“wiki claims” is exactly the issue there. What is the source for that? Gaheron saying that us he close to obtaining godhood. That’s a subjective statement that of course he’d claim! The whole point is him obtaining godhood. But he never does.

There are few credible editors of the wiki, and the most active is Santax who takes subjective NPC wording ad fact and mixes his theories his theories with facts, no different than WoodenPotatoes does/did.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

If a mortal assumes the power of a god then they become immortal. And vastly more powerful than any mortal. Yes it’s a tautology; it’s just what being a god means.

I stand by my point that a great hero, with the shiniest armor, and the biggest sword, and elite abilities, or the fattest spell book and the gnarliest staff, is still an order of magnitude below godhood. All the examples of mortals becoming gods (in GW2 or otherwise) are exceptional cases, involving exceptional or even unique circumstances, and usually some sort of extreme danger.

There is no steady continuum from mortality to immortality. By definition, there is a large gap between the power of gods and mortals. So gods are not simply really powerful mortals. They have power you can’t get without actually becoming a god.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

Also, just becomes someone claims they are a god, or are worshiped as a god, doesn’t actually make them a god. Plenty of real humans (e.g. Roman Emperors) have claimed to be gods over the course of human history.

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Posted by: Doctor.1905

Doctor.1905

Also, just becomes someone claims they are a god, or are worshiped as a god, doesn’t actually make them a god. Plenty of real humans (e.g. Roman Emperors) have claimed to be gods over the course of human history.

If it looks like a god, smells like a god, and ignores your prayers like a god, you don’t have to actually see the god to know it’s a god.

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Posted by: pdavis.8031

pdavis.8031

What if the dragons are “anti-gods”? Those who by whatever means achieved godhood, but did so for the forces of evil. We know that the six have the aspects of “good”. (i.e. light, justice, order, life, etc.) but few, or none, from the aspects of “evil”. (i.e. chaos, death, decay, darkness, etc.). It would make sense for them to take the form of dragons and use avatars and minions to wreck havoc upon the world, much like the six use avatars to bring wholeness to the world. Also it makes sense for them to remain unknown, as they remain hidden and asleep for many generations at a time. The ones we do know about, and their names, is because they are the most recent ones to have awaken. They recieved their names, or changed them, upon becoming “anti-gods”. We could also ask the same about the gods. How do we know their names? Apparently it was revealed to their followers at some point by them, so why couldn’t it be true of the dragons as well?

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Posted by: bullyrook.2165

bullyrook.2165

Actually, I was thinking that maybe the Dragons (lore-wise) did name themselves. They simply absorbed knowledge of the local inhabitance and built a name that best suited them from the combination of dialects. That would explain why they have no linguistic similarities between them. It could very well be that the dragons are exactly like the gods, only that their power is what happens when it is left unchecked. Snaff is described as acting for everything the Kral lacked in order to control him. Had he been successful, would we have seen the first asura deity?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The issue with your theory, pdavis, is two-fold.

Firstly, even the gods have darker elements. Grenth, for example, is the god of death, darkness, destruction, etc. Balthazar is the god of war and fire. If you go with the core aspects of the gods, you’re left with Death, War, Life, Nature, Knowledge, and Beauty. On the flip side, however, the Elder Dragons are all aspects of nature – there is nothing innately evil about what their aspects are; they are Fire, Ice, Water, Vegetation/Plant, Death/Undeath, Crystal. So this isn’t a case of black and white, but more of “actions” or “aspects of life” and elements. Half of the gods have a darker side to them, if not more; same goes for the Elder Dragons’ elements – they all have a dark and light side to them, the Elder Dragons are just forces of destruction themselves.

The second, is that the Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods by dozens of thousands of years, the Six originating somewhere completely different than the Elder Dragons, whom are said to have “always been on Tyria”. Their origins are unrelated by all evidences.

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Posted by: pdavis.8031

pdavis.8031

I was not aware of that…I’m still a noob to the ancient history and lore so…

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

No worries, that’s why I was explaining it.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.