(edited by Neilos Tyrhanos.5427)
Dredge and the Priory
The Priory and Dredge are opposing factions. If you have done the Norn PS, you would have saw the Dredge launch assaults on Priory bases, attacked and killed a Vigil squad to test their sonic weapons, and they also attacked the Priory HQ directly solely to kill Ogden Stonehealer. They viewed all the other Priory members guilt of death for harboring a dwarf, who they view as “oppressor”.
The Dredge aren’t a innocent race of ex-slaves anymore. They have largely became a xenophobic race of expansionists, constantly fighting to claim more land.
(edited by Erukk.1408)
Also the fact there is a good chunk of Dredge who basically expand and go to Dwarven sites PURELY to destroy the relics and knowledge left within.
I won’t say it’s unfounded, but the dredge only have enemies because they insist on making them. It’d be relatively simple for the dredge to accommodate the Priory- all they want are some relics the dredge have no use for- but instead they insist on destroying them, and kill or imprison Priory researchers who come sniffing around for them. Their presence scares of the animals the hunter-gatherer norn rely on, and whenever they decide they want a new piece of land they just take it, and whoever was there before better run fast. Magister Penelope has the right idea- there is no moral high ground here. The only way any of these groups are going to secure their interests is by going out and taking them, and it was the dredge leadership that set that rule.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
The Priory and Dredge are opposing factions. If you have done the Norn PS, you would have saw the Dredge launch assaults on Priory bases, attacked and killed a Vigil squad to test their sonic weapons, and they also attacked the Priory HQ directly solely to kill Ogden Stonehealer.
With the exception of the assault on Ogden Stonehealer, the other actions seem uncomfortably similar to those of the Priory or other allied groups. I cannot condemn the Dredge for assaulting Priory bases, when the Priory assault Dredge bases with the same regularity.
Magister Penelope has the right idea- there is no moral high ground here. The only way any of these groups are going to secure their interests is by going out and taking them, and it was the dredge leadership that set that rule.
I may feel the same way if we ever saw the allied groups make any peaceful effort. We see no effort on the part of the Priory to allow the space that a species must need; we see no effort to get relics through non-aggressive methods.
I wouldn’t say the Dredge leadership set that rule. The Dredge leadership is undoubtedly xenophobic, aggressive, and paranoid, but I would say the rule was set two hundred and fifty years ago, with the Kurzicks’ awful treatment of the Dredge, and the other races making no effort to free them from enslavement (except for our own efforts at the Vloxen Excavation). After such a precedent, the Priory and other races really should have shown the emergent Dredge they meant them no harm. From what we see in-game, it looks to me as if they did the opposite.
I don’t see how the Kurzicks’ treatment of the dredge – they claimed that they were attacked first, BTW (both sides claim this, we have no clue which is true) – has any holding on the Tyrians’ treatment of the dredge. I somehow doubt that the Canthan dredge returned to Tyria with news of how they were treated there, since there was still 6 years of enslavement up north.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I don’t see how the Kurzicks’ treatment of the dredge – they claimed that they were attacked first, BTW (both sides claim this, we have no clue which is true) – has any holding on the Tyrians’ treatment of the dredge. I somehow doubt that the Canthan dredge returned to Tyria with news of how they were treated there, since there was still 6 years of enslavement up north.
Ah, I had Moleneaux mixed up with Molenin in my head (which would have meant Molenin returned to Tyria from Cantha). My bad.
Still, it can’t be doubted that the Dredge received incredibly poor treatment at every turn, even after the fall of Sorrow’s Furnace. They were given very little reason to credit the other species as allies.
Did the (other) dominant species of Tyria show peaceful intentions? My point is that Penelope’s dialogue seems to indicate that they don’t recognise the Dredge have any right to space to live; that whoever has the muscle should take whatever they want.
Dredge live mostly underground…. so them constantly expanding on the surface is actually taking lands from others… every city/major place of the dredge is underground so really they don’t NEED to be taking surface formations bar the occasional surface exit to a city. There is a difference between “living space.” and “Charging into ruins and killing most on sight.” Or like them raiding the one haven and stealing all the supplies from it :P.
Dredge live mostly underground…. so them constantly expanding on the surface is actually taking lands from others… every city/major place of the dredge is underground so really they don’t NEED to be taking surface formations bar the occasional surface exit to a city. There is a difference between “living space.” and “Charging into ruins and killing most on sight.” Or like them raiding the one haven and stealing all the supplies from it :P.
Taking the land from whom? The Norn are only recent arrivals this far south in the Shiverpeaks, too. The land was only owned long-term by the Dwarves, really.
Charging into ruins is one thing; it’s wrong of the Dredge to do so. But conquering land that was never anybody but the Dredge’s is wrong of the Priory, too.
Essentially, I’m saying that Penelope’s dialogue shows a rather uncompromisingly aggressive stance on the behalf of the perceived good guys, which leads me to see the whole situation as less than clear-cut. When the PC asks, she does not defend the practise on moral terms. She simply says they will make the Dredge fight for land.
Dredge live mostly underground…. so them constantly expanding on the surface is actually taking lands from others… every city/major place of the dredge is underground so really they don’t NEED to be taking surface formations bar the occasional surface exit to a city. There is a difference between “living space.” and “Charging into ruins and killing most on sight.” Or like them raiding the one haven and stealing all the supplies from it :P.
Taking the land from whom? The Norn are only recent arrivals this far south in the Shiverpeaks, too. The land was only owned long-term by the Dwarves, really.
Charging into ruins is one thing; it’s wrong of the Dredge to do so. But conquering land that was never anybody but the Dredge’s is wrong of the Priory, too.
Essentially, I’m saying that Penelope’s dialogue shows a rather uncompromisingly aggressive stance on the behalf of the perceived good guys, which leads me to see the whole situation as less than clear-cut. When the PC asks, she does not defend the practise on moral terms. She simply says they will make the Dredge fight for land.
And again, they are obviously aggressive toward ALL non-dredge people. They attack the Kodan extensively in Frostgorge for example.
The dredge clearly aren’t fighting to get enough land to comfortably support their population, as again they live mostly underground.
And again, they are obviously aggressive toward ALL non-dredge people. They attack the Kodan extensively in Frostgorge for example.
They do indeed. As I’ve said before, I’m not defending what the Dredge military do— I’m saying that the Priory do the same.
The dredge clearly aren’t fighting to get enough land to comfortably support their population, as again they live mostly underground.
Regardless, they have the same right to the land as any other. Many Tyrian races have made space for many others and allowed new settlement, particularly since the dragons rose, but this courtesy isn’t extended to all.
Again, Dredge live almost entirely underground. Why do they need to have equal amounts of land above and belowground?
They are an underground race. They don’t NEED surface cities. Saying they “the same right to land and living space” is okay… until you hit the point of “But they already have underground cities, mines, and tunnels… alongside some surface settlements around the tunnel exits… do they REALLY need extensive above ground holdings?”
The priory is acting off of… a long period of interacting. The Dredge showed themselves to be a xenophobic, hostile race that are interested in killing others instead of trading, destroying relics and knowledge of the Dwarves instead of simply letting the Priory take them…
Hell, the Granite citadel is kinda away from the fighting there, yet the Dredge charge in and attempt to slaughter the Norn and priory camp there basically unprovoked…
(edited by Kalavier.1097)
Regardless, they have the same right to the land as any other. Many Tyrian races have made space for many others and allowed new settlement, particularly since the dragons rose, but this courtesy isn’t extended to all.
You don’t know that though.
And even if they did extent that courtesy, do you think the Dredge would have actually excepted it? Their entire culture’s xenophobic nature wouldn’t work in their favor at all. Not to mention, the Moletariate probably wouldn’t allow it, since it could give way to their people mixing with the other races culturally. That might expand their mental horizons on how people should be allowed to live, and that might lead to questioning of the Moletariate’s leadership. Something they would never allow.
There’s a certain degree of ‘opinions expressed by one magister may not reflect Priory policy’ here. Maybe Penelope has lost so many of her comrades in the fighting that she’s not inclined to be gentle. Maybe she’s tired of people sympathising with the poor widdle dredge that have killed so many people and destroyed so much knowledge. Maybe she’s just not a very nice person.
The key might be, though, that there’s a clause missing, and what she means is something like “if they want exclusive use of the land, they have to fight for it like the rest of us”. The races and factions that get on well with one another have fairly open borders, allowing other races to travel through their territory and even settle in unclaimed regions. The dredge don’t do that – their xenophobia pushes them to drive everyone out.
Going back to the Priory’s official policy, I think it basically boils down to this: The Priory wants to study dwarven artifacts, and hopes that such artifacts may include the key to defeating the dragons. The dredge leadership wants to destroy everything connected to the dwarves. The Priory does not want knowledge or artifacts that might otherwise have been key to defeating the dragons to be destroyed because the dredge have a chip on their shoulder – and thus they’re trying to get as many dig sites out of the reach of the dredge as possible.
If the dredge were willing to let the Priory come in and dig, there would probably be no conflict between them. Since the dredge insist on everyone else keeping out while sitting on (and destroying) a resource that might be the difference between death and survival for everyone... well, if that’s what they want to do, they’re going to have to fight for it.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
Again, Dredge live almost entirely underground. Why do they need to have equal amounts of land above and belowground?
They are an underground race. They don’t NEED surface cities. Saying they “the same right to land and living space” is okay… until you hit the point of “But they already have underground cities, mines, and tunnels… alongside some surface settlements around the tunnel exits… do they REALLY need extensive above ground holdings?”
Neither do the Priory, or the Norn, or countless other species. It’s not the place of the Priory to decide where another species is allowed to live; especially when many such settlements aren’t taken from anybody else.
The priory is acting off of… a long period of interacting. The Dredge showed themselves to be a xenophobic, hostile race that are interested in killing others instead of trading, destroying relics and knowledge of the Dwarves instead of simply letting the Priory take them…
This is affording the benefit of the doubt to one side, and not the other.
You don’t know that though.
And even if they did extent that courtesy, do you think the Dredge would have actually excepted it? Their entire culture’s xenophobic nature wouldn’t work in their favor at all. Not to mention, the Moletariate probably wouldn’t allow it, since it could give way to their people mixing with the other races culturally. That might expand their mental horizons on how people should be allowed to live, and that might lead to questioning of the Moletariate’s leadership. Something they would never allow.
I think they may have accepted it if they were given any reason to see other species as their allies. Those allies, in the past, stood by while the Dredge were enslaved; there’s nothing in-game that suggests the surface species adopted a more cordial approach at any point.
We don’t see the beginning of the recent conflict, but the benefit of the doubt is being afforded to one side, and not the other.
If the dredge were willing to let the Priory come in and dig, there would probably be no conflict between them. Since the dredge insist on everyone else keeping out while sitting on (and destroying) a resource that might be the difference between death and survival for everyone... well, if that’s what they want to do, they’re going to have to fight for it.
Certainly— but that’s not the reasoning on display in the quote, which speaks of making them fight for any land they want (which isn’t taken from any other occupying species, in many cases). It’s also not a great defence of the practise of conquering bases that aren’t dig-sites.
(edited by Neilos Tyrhanos.5427)
Dredge have always been looked upon as less worthy and driven into xenophobia by their constant rejection, They could be a powerful ally, given the chance ( We know they can make alliances ). I remember a blogpost about the Dredge talking about how the Norn just hunted the dredge for sport, they didn’t use the meat or the skin, they just killed them because they could.
Elona is Love, Elona is life.
There’s a certain degree of ‘opinions expressed by one magister may not reflect Priory policy’ here. Maybe Penelope has lost so many of her comrades in the fighting that she’s not inclined to be gentle. Maybe she’s tired of people sympathising with the poor widdle dredge that have killed so many people and destroyed so much knowledge. Maybe she’s just not a very nice person.
The key might be, though, that there’s a clause missing, and what she means is something like “if they want exclusive use of the land, they have to fight for it like the rest of us”. The races and factions that get on well with one another have fairly open borders, allowing other races to travel through their territory and even settle in unclaimed regions. The dredge don’t do that – their xenophobia pushes them to drive everyone out.
This could be very true, as other Priory members don’t seem that extreme anyway. Hell, it could simply be partly “Knowledge to use against the dragons!” and partly “We DO NOT WANT this knowledge and historical artifacts destroyed.”
Neither do the Priory, or the Norn, or countless other species. It’s not the place of the Priory to decide where another species is allowed to live; especially when many such settlements aren’t taken from anybody else.
Um what? The other races live primarily above ground. This would be true if they were violently expanding UNDERGROUND, but they aren’t.
This is affording the benefit of the doubt to one side, and not the other.
I’ll explain this later on.
I think they may have accepted it if they were given any reason to see other species as their allies. Those allies, in the past, stood by while the Dredge were enslaved; there’s nothing in-game that suggests the surface species adopted a more cordial approach at any point.
Actually, humans and deldrimor dwarves fought and killed the stone summit. When the Dredge were in trouble, the player character/hero of GW1 helped them . In Factions, you took out a hostile leader, helping a nicer one come to power. In prophecies Sorrow’s Furnace. In EOTN a DREDGE comes to you about his brethen being enslaved and you rescue them… hell in Sorrow’s Embrace in the miner path…
Rasolov: I don’t know if the rebellion will spread, but today my friends will be treated fairly. I was raised to hate outsiders and believe that our leaders care for us.
Rasolov: And yet Shukov was ready to put us in chains, just as the dwarves once did. And today a group of outsiders helped me stop Shukov. Remarkable!
We explicitly get told they raise their young to hate all outsides and NEVER trust them.
Certainly— but that’s not the reasoning on display in the quote, which speaks of making them fight for any land they want (which isn’t taken from any other occupying species, in many cases). It’s also not a great defence of the practise of conquering bases that aren’t dig-sites.
As said, the words of a single person do not have to mean the viewpoint of the entire order.
Also, the Dredge use those bases as means to DIRECTLY assault local areas such as the fort/monastery nearby.
Dredge have always been looked upon as less worthy and driven into xenophobia by their constant rejection, They could be a powerful ally, given the chance ( We know they can make alliances ). I remember a blogpost about the Dredge talking about how the Norn just hunted the dredge for sport, they didn’t use the meat or the skin, they just killed them because they could.
A few Dredge allied with the inquest to gain power, and IIRC, planned to swarm over the surface and basically put “everybody else in their place” or kill them.
Some Norn may have hunted the Dredge, but what a handful do don’t mean the rest would do it. Hell, I’ve seen Norn NPCS ingame describe local threats as “hunting”. Such as Centaurs attacking Ascalon Settlement or the undead in the swamp (First Haven). It’s their nature… As a hunter based society/origins, going out and taking out a threat may simply be called “hunting” just as easily as going to get meat.
Actually, humans and deldrimor dwarves fought and killed the stone summit. When the Dredge were in trouble, the player character/hero of GW1 helped them . In Factions, you took out a hostile leader, helping a nicer one come to power. In prophecies Sorrow’s Furnace. In EOTN a DREDGE comes to you about his brethen being enslaved and you rescue them… hell in Sorrow’s Embrace in the miner path…
Aye, the hero saves them at Vloxen (though remember also the quest in Sorrow’s Furnace that has you working for the Summit and assassinating Molachev on the Summit’s behalf).
They remained enslaved after the Furnace fell. Whatever the heroes did, the other species stood by.
Some Norn may have hunted the Dredge, but what a handful do don’t mean the rest would do it. Hell, I’ve seen Norn NPCS ingame describe local threats as “hunting”. Such as Centaurs attacking Ascalon Settlement or the undead in the swamp (First Haven). It’s their nature… As a hunter based society/origins, going out and taking out a threat may simply be called “hunting” just as easily as going to get meat.
This really does seem like giving the benefit of the doubt when evidence indicates the opposite. Molesmasher has Norn players raiding an underground Dredge mine (from where they are not attempting to launch attacks themselves); numerous hearts request we kill non-aggressive workers and destroy mining equipment, quite apart from dealing with the soldiers.
I recall a post by a dev from some time ago, saying (something along the lines) that the Norn do indeed fight them for sport, that it’s part of the hunting to them. I wish I could find it— I’ll keep looking.
EDIT: found it!
He says specifically that the Norn delight in provoking them, and that while the soldiers are hostile, the workers just want to work.
(edited by Neilos Tyrhanos.5427)
Norn being kittens and starting a fight isn’t new. Again, in their culture, a threat may be described as hunting, as seen by some Norn fighting undead and calling it a hunt, or centaurs, etc.
But the dredge are still xenophobic and teaching their children to hate all outsiders, and are still openly hostile to Non-norn people.
The other races? Dredge would’ve encountered humans and Dwarves.. maybe a rare charr or Norn. None of the Asura or Sylvari. Besides, we don’t know if they actually did more or stood by.
Norn being kittens and starting a fight isn’t new. Again, in their culture, a threat may be described as hunting, as seen by some Norn fighting undead and calling it a hunt, or centaurs, etc.
Well, we do have a dev source saying the Norn provoke the Dredge when they’re spoiling for a fight, and we don’t see attacks launched from Molensk or other mines which are routinely raided.
It’s rather an assumption to say the Dredge always attack first. We don’t see that. We see the Dredge military often attacking others, and we see others often attacking the Dredge (including non-aggressive mines and miners).
The other races? Dredge would’ve encountered humans and Dwarves.. maybe a rare charr or Norn. None of the Asura or Sylvari. Besides, we don’t know if they actually did more or stood by.
The Asura were in contact with the Dredge, according to this.
The Asura of the Tarnished Coast are a brilliant, if diminutive, people who dwelled, until recently, within the Depths of Tyria, where they regularly dealt with Dwarves, Dredge, and other underground races.
The dredge are similar to the centaurs and probably ogres too. They are intelligent, social, organized, enemies who are largely fighting for their own turf. Their conflicts have a historical basis but there are variety of practical, philosophical, and cultural factors as well. At another time, in another place, they could be allies of the major races but it isn’t going to happen at the moment.
If you want to see the Dredge as a neutral race you can easily do that and just consider them to have alternative philosophies and poor leaders. If you want to see them as an evil race you can see them as invaders who will raid for goods, drive people from their lands, refuse to trade (as that assumes individual property), destroy history based on racial hatred, enslave their citizens to a corrupt ideology, and so on.
Neilos… and what about the group of norn miners in Wayfarer foothills who are attacked and imprisoned by the dredge? The very ones who an event deals with escorting a norn back in (when the other miners WILL NOT) to RESCUE the captured ones.
Also, who says the Asura did nothing? What facts do you have to back that up? Maybe some Asura helped them out for a while, maybe others turned their backs.
There is a difference between seeing them as they act, and placing far too much sympathy toward them based off the words of a SINGLE PERSON. It’s rather an assumption to say that if the Priory just backed off, the Dredge would do nothing and would leave them alone. It’s a huge assumption to say if the Priory backed off, the Dredge wouldn’t follow on their heels destroying all they could find.
Essentially, Stooperdale covered it. What do we see of the Dredge? raiders who will steal supplies (Gendarren fields). Attackers who will drive others away (Koden, Granite Citadel ruins, wayfarer foothills captured miners, etc). Destroy history based on racial hatred (a LOT of the times we see them fighting Priory, it’s because the dredge want to destroy EVERYTHING DWARVEN that the Priory has gathered or wants to gather)
And enslaving their citizens? Sorrow’s Embrace, and one heart where you HELP DREDGE REBELS.
Yes, in post Sorrow’s Embrace dredge culture it might be nicer and more friendly, but it might not. They proved themselves (EXPLICITLY SO in the Norn storyline) to be a major threat, one to treat with caution and armed force then a wave and a glance over randomly.
Norn storyline they kidnapped and murdered vigil soldiers in weapon tests, they attacked a haven/priory base to steal a book of building plans (and if you do the vigil path, it’s implied/stated they murdered EVERY SINGLE PRIORY MEMBER at the place while doing so and you were investigating the missing vigil soldiers.), and then (using an icebrood/dragon magic enhanced sonic cannon) WENT AFTER THE PRIORY.
Why? To murder Odgen. That was it. That was the ONLY REASON. They were going to kill everybody in the Priory building (and surrounding area as the weapon attracted icebrood) simply to take out “The last oppressor”. Now I think you can find one or two dredge that take issue with the tactic, but that’s because using the weapon caused freaking ICEBROOD to swarm over the area, and less because it’s just a slaughter (IIRC).
(edited by Kalavier.1097)
Certainly— but that’s not the reasoning on display in the quote, which speaks of making them fight for any land they want (which isn’t taken from any other occupying species, in many cases). It’s also not a great defence of the practise of conquering bases that aren’t dig-sites.
Like I said, you’re picking out one quote, from an individual whose motivations for saying that aren’t known.
I don’t have the time to go through and grab each quote right now, but the overall impression from other Priory members (including relevant scouts) is that the main source of the conflict is that the Priory wants dwarven artifacts for their historical value and possible relevance in fighting the dragons – the Priory generally isn’t interested in seizing territory for the sake of it. If the dredge were willing to let the Priory do their work in dredge territory, there’ll be no conflict. As it is, you have a historical preservation society that’s willing to fight to achieve their goals, and a regime that is hellbent on destroying history.
With respect to capturing other bases – regardless of the reasons for it, there’s a war on, and when you’re in a war, the further you can push the front away from your objectives, the better. Capturing those bases makes it harder for the dredge to raid the actual dig sites. Possibly more significantly, though, keep in mind that the dredge strongholds themselves are potentially valuable dig sites – there’s the Dragon’s Eye event in Dostoev (sp?) Sky Peak, and let’s not forget that the Tome of the Rubicon was originally found in Sorrow’s Furnace. The Priory probably regards stuff that’s too deep in dredge territory to be lost causes in general, but if they get the opportunity, they’ll go for it. After all, it might be the difference between extinction and survival for everyone.
When it comes to other races… Nobody’s perfect, and the norn particularly tend to be jerks (remember back in EOTN where most wouldn’t even talk to us until we beat them down?). However, we’ve also been told that the dredge regime is a 1984-esque one that relies on presenting other races as outside enemies to keep internal dissent to a manageable level. Yes, they’ll form alliances… but the alliances they’ll form are with other regimes that are similarly oppressive – any alliance with a more liberal nation might involve the “ally” condemning the moleteriate for their heavy-handed methods or lower-ranking dredge learning that there are fairer forms of government. It’s possible that catty moves by other races, particularly the norn, has helped the dredge regime in maintaining the fiction that everyone (apart from the occasional regime-approved alliance with a similarly oppressive regime that doesn’t risk presenting itself as a better option) is out to get them, but without a more detailed history than we have, we can’t be sure either way. Right now, though, we have to deal with the situation as it is.
Currently… they’re like so many other nations that are looking to aggressively expand at the expense of their neighbours. Most of the dredge are probably just caught up in it like anyone else, but they have to be fought and contained. The ultimate objective would be the removal of the regime, whether through conventional military means or by supporting rebellions (which we do in Sorrow’s Embrace explorable and in zones set after that dungeon such as Frostgorge Sound).
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
The dredge are caught up at the end point of a cycle of revenge and violence – Unfortunately, that end isn’t ‘exhaustion’, but “Total Annihilation”. Non-dredge have proven themselves to be nothing but hostile to the dredge – They cannot allow non-dredge to have the surface because said non-dredge continue to use the surface to muster their forces and grow in strength to assault the Dredge, as they have done throughout history.
While there may have, at one point in the past, a window where Dredge and the other races could have compromised and come to a mutually beneficial understanding, that point is long past. Only the total destruction of one side or the other’s culture will bring anything resembling a lasting peace.
As long as both sides want it, there’s always a window. After all, until not too long ago, everybody thought that charr and humans would keep fighting until one wiped the other out.
At the moment, though, the dredge leadership wants war – the persecution complex and xenophobia keeps them in power. If the rebellion against that leadership (that we have opportunities to assist in some of the content) succeeds, though, another opportunity to redefine the relationship between dredge and other races will come. Whether that opportunity is taken or whether it will be squandered by one side or the other is, of course, another question.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
As long as both sides want it, there’s always a window. After all, until not too long ago, everybody thought that charr and humans would keep fighting until one wiped the other out.
At the moment, though, the dredge leadership wants war – the persecution complex and xenophobia keeps them in power. If the rebellion against that leadership (that we have opportunities to assist in some of the content) succeeds, though, another opportunity to redefine the relationship between dredge and other races will come. Whether that opportunity is taken or whether it will be squandered by one side or the other is, of course, another question.
True.
Dredge would make an awesome 7th playable race (With Skritt being the 6th)
Dredge and hylek are two races that I’m pretty sure will never be playable, unfortunately, and for the same reason – both have a racial immunity to a condition (blind and poison respectively).
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
True. Of course, I also think that no dredge want peace – To them, peace is nothing more than a means to their own subjugation, and their history has proven them right in this regard.
Essentially, Stooperdale covered it. What do we see of the Dredge? raiders who will steal supplies (Gendarren fields). Attackers who will drive others away (Koden, Granite Citadel ruins, wayfarer foothills captured miners, etc). Destroy history based on racial hatred (a LOT of the times we see them fighting Priory, it’s because the dredge want to destroy EVERYTHING DWARVEN that the Priory has gathered or wants to gather)
As I said before, the actions of the Dredge leadership and military are inexcusable. I’ve not been arguing that.
But killing Dredge miners, who, as the Dev has clarified, just want to work— that’s not the same thing. That’s not to be glossed over, either.
(edited by Neilos Tyrhanos.5427)
You make a few good points. I avoid fighting the yellow dredge, and can only sigh at the misplaced proletarian courage when one picks up a fallen soldier’s weapon to attack me – it helps that IRL I’m pretty far to the Left myself.
However, as people have said, they are rabidly xenophobic, well past anything the real Soviets did (more like Cultural Revolution, or even Khmer Rouge), to the point where they would invite massive destruction to kill a single dwarf who wasn’t even of the faction that enslaved them.
Also, it’s not entirely black and white. I haven’t played SE yet; but there are the rebels in Frostgorge, and (I think in the same area) an object on the ground that is a memorandum from a (female) dredge officer protesting to her superiors of the rampant sexism of the Flame Legion during the Molten Alliance, and warning against adopting similar policies. So we do have sympathetic dredge characters, and can even feel some degree of sympathy for the wrongs they as a race have suffered. Just because they are generally evil doesn’t mean they are always evil, and by the same token just because the Priory is generally good doesn’t mean that it (or its individual members) are always good.
(edited by Naranek.3467)
Essentially, Stooperdale covered it. What do we see of the Dredge? raiders who will steal supplies (Gendarren fields). Attackers who will drive others away (Koden, Granite Citadel ruins, wayfarer foothills captured miners, etc). Destroy history based on racial hatred (a LOT of the times we see them fighting Priory, it’s because the dredge want to destroy EVERYTHING DWARVEN that the Priory has gathered or wants to gather)
As I said before, the actions of the Dredge leadership and military are inexcusable. I’ve not been arguing that.
But killing Dredge miners, who, as the Dev has clarified, just want to work— that’s not the same thing. That’s not to be glossed over, either.
And the dredge miners aren’t involved in the camp warfare that you explicitly drew the quote from. That’s purely military
Again, most of it goes toward stopping their invasion of areas. Stop their resources, they can’t advance. There are at least two events I can think of which literally boil down to that. The Dredge pop up in an area without warning, claim, or anything else, then start stripping the resources from it and you have to stop them. (The small forest that is used to rebuild the bridge in Snowden, and in the valley just north of the priory…)
Even then, the Dredge do it to others (As shown by their murdering a bunch of priory researchers, from a group that isn’t even CLOSE to a dredge held location…)
Basically reading this I’m of the opinion that both sides are in the wrong to one degree or another, and in all honesty that is just life when it comes to warfare. Could the Priory or Norn have taken a better attitude towards the Dredge? Yes! Could the Dredge have taken a better attitude towards outsiders? Yes! It’s very similar to the hatred between humans and charr. The humans of GW1 hated the charr for destroying Ascalon, the charr of GW1 hated humanity for taking Ascalon a millenia before. The hatred continued because both sides killed each other, it is very similar to the Priory/Dredge conflict. If the Priory got in contact with the rebel dredge in Frostgorge, I would expect the Priory to put their best foot forward in reconciling with the race.
The main difference is the Priory doesn’t hate the dredge or (besides that one) perhaps WANT to conflict. IIRC, the dragon eye gem event had the priory guy trying to be diplomatic about it, only to get attacked.
They just want the dwarven relics.
Hell, the vigil in bloodtide coast has a squad that goes into a risen infested dredge town/mine, purely to try to find survivors and help them.
The Priory as an organization may not hate them, but it is obvious that individuals do. Similar to how humanity on a large scale doesn’t care much about the charr. Sure you have the small Ebonhawke group that hates them, but for the most part, charr are a distant threat to humanity. Centaurs are more the enemy to be despised.
I think the reason the Priory is considered the good guy in the scenario (where I’m certain ‘evils’ were done on both sides) is they are the ones that I could see most willing to give up a grudge and put differences aside. I personally see that being harder for the dredge. I can understand how the dredge got to be how they are, they’ve had a rough life as a race, but that doesn’t forgive the way in which they’ve decided to react to it.