What the hell is astral power? What the hell is a celestial avatar? The entire point of nature magic was that it was drawn from nature. Not from space. Not from the mists.
Not from space.
Space = nature.
Nature is not exclusive to Earth (or Tyria in this case).
Thematically, it fits – star reading can be easily associated with druids and sages, and from star reading to drawing power from stars is no bigger jump than from communicating with dead people to raising undead minions and manipulating life force.
Not from space.
Space = nature.
Nature is not exclusive to Earth (or Tyria in this case).
So what do we draw from this then?
The druid now has moon powers?
The closest is us summoning a spirit of the sun.
They have never gathered the forces to themselves, they have invoked forces.
The implication is that we are becoming an avatar of a moon/druid spirit.
Such a bond requires more explanation. Avatar magic was not in the grasp of rangers before this spec, it was always with devout humans, and dervish/revenants.
There is no history here.
So what do we draw from this then?
The druid now has moon powers?
Yep. Druids in WoW do the same thing, it’s not unprecedented for a druid concept to use celestial powers.
Such a bond requires more explanation.
Not really, rangers can utilize the power of nature, and that includes space. Simple as that.
There is no history here.
There’s a first time for everything.
Not from space.
Space = nature.
Nature is not exclusive to Earth (or Tyria in this case).So what do we draw from this then?
The druid now has moon powers?
The closest is us summoning a spirit of the sun.
They have never gathered the forces to themselves, they have invoked forces.The implication is that we are becoming an avatar of a moon/druid spirit.
Such a bond requires more explanation. Avatar magic was not in the grasp of rangers before this spec, it was always with devout humans, and dervish/revenants.
There is no history here.
so its hard to believe nature magic, but you accept people who can control the elements, clone themselves, raise the dead, summon spirit weapons, summon flying bots? ok then.
Not from space.
Space = nature.
Nature is not exclusive to Earth (or Tyria in this case).So what do we draw from this then?
The druid now has moon powers?
The closest is us summoning a spirit of the sun.
They have never gathered the forces to themselves, they have invoked forces.The implication is that we are becoming an avatar of a moon/druid spirit.
Such a bond requires more explanation. Avatar magic was not in the grasp of rangers before this spec, it was always with devout humans, and dervish/revenants.
There is no history here.
so its hard to believe nature magic, but you accept people who can control the elements, clone themselves, raise the dead, summon spirit weapons, summon flying bots? ok then.
No. Its hard to believe that rangers are now dervish/revenants and no one can explain why. I don’t question guardians summoning spirit weapons, but I would gawk if I saw a warrior summon a flesh golem.
Its hard to explain why they have the ability to gather a force that was never identified in the lore.
Not from space.
Space = nature.
Nature is not exclusive to Earth (or Tyria in this case).So what do we draw from this then?
The druid now has moon powers?
The closest is us summoning a spirit of the sun.
They have never gathered the forces to themselves, they have invoked forces.The implication is that we are becoming an avatar of a moon/druid spirit.
Such a bond requires more explanation. Avatar magic was not in the grasp of rangers before this spec, it was always with devout humans, and dervish/revenants.
There is no history here.
so its hard to believe nature magic, but you accept people who can control the elements, clone themselves, raise the dead, summon spirit weapons, summon flying bots? ok then.
No. Its hard to believe that rangers are now dervish/revenants and no one can explain why. I don’t question guardians summoning spirit weapons, but I would gawk if I saw a warrior summon a flesh golem.
Its hard to explain why they have the ability to gather a force that was never identified in the lore.
Dervish tap into the magic of the six gods. Revenants tap into the power of the mists.
Completely unrelated to Druids.
Druids/Rangers use nature magic. Space/Celestial = Nature.
Thus it is normal for them to use it.
Done. Bam. Explained.
Warriors could summon Flesh Golem 253 years ago. It was called Dual Profession and supported by lore.
If new specializations seem to violate pre-established mechanics, just look at how the Daredevil now gets an extra dodge roll. Things change and evolve. So can a Ranger, and adapting is actually part of their class.
Warriors could summon Flesh Golem 253 years ago. It was called Dual Profession and supported by lore.
Indeed, classes can learn the abilities of other classes. That’s supported by the lore.
It’s just gone because of gameplay/technical reasons.
Not from space.
Space = nature.
Nature is not exclusive to Earth (or Tyria in this case).So what do we draw from this then?
The druid now has moon powers?
The closest is us summoning a spirit of the sun.
They have never gathered the forces to themselves, they have invoked forces.The implication is that we are becoming an avatar of a moon/druid spirit.
Such a bond requires more explanation. Avatar magic was not in the grasp of rangers before this spec, it was always with devout humans, and dervish/revenants.
There is no history here.
so its hard to believe nature magic, but you accept people who can control the elements, clone themselves, raise the dead, summon spirit weapons, summon flying bots? ok then.
No. Its hard to believe that rangers are now dervish/revenants and no one can explain why. I don’t question guardians summoning spirit weapons, but I would gawk if I saw a warrior summon a flesh golem.
Its hard to explain why they have the ability to gather a force that was never identified in the lore.
Dervish tap into the magic of the six gods. Revenants tap into the power of the mists.
Completely unrelated to Druids.Druids/Rangers use nature magic. Space/Celestial = Nature.
Thus it is normal for them to use it.
Done. Bam. Explained.
Not exactly. It is the use of avatars. It was a magical ability of the dervish, and now in revenants, which are the baby of ritualists and dervish.
It is not whether or not it is nature. Is is how are they physically performing an avatar skill. Something they up to this point have had no ability to perform.
If we used the “oh its nature” reason. Then a ranger would able to reproduce anything an elementalist could accomplish.
So please anet give us some lore explanation of how Druid Spirits contacted rangers, and how from that they learned how to become avatars of things.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
It is not whether or not it is nature. Is is how are they physically performing an avatar skill. Something they up to this point have had no ability to perform.
You could ask the same thing about the other specs. Why can the necromancer suddenly turn into a reaper? Why can people suddenly become a revenant? Why can elementalists suddenly overload attunements?
I will tell you why: Progress. Things change, people learn new abilities and skills.
It is not whether or not it is nature. Is is how are they physically performing an avatar skill. Something they up to this point have had no ability to perform.
You could ask the same thing about the other specs. Why can the necromancer suddenly turn into a reaper? Why can people suddenly become a revenant? Why can elementalists suddenly overload attunements?
I will tell you why: Progress. Things change, people learn new abilities and skills.
The reaper shroud is an advanced form of their death shroud. I would love an explanation of why people can suddenly become a revenant. Overloading is something they could mechanically do in gw1, and it isn’t like they have access to a whole ability they never had before. Rangers are transforming into avatars, and that requires explanation.
Not exactly. It is the use of avatars. It was a magical ability of the dervish, and now in revenants, which are the baby of ritualists and dervish.
Actually, I’d say they are unrelated because the Dervish was directly tapping into the power of the gods to become avatars, while the Revenant is using the mists and isn’t becoming an avatar at all.
Rangers are transforming into avatars, and that requires explanation.
They learned a new trick while experimenting with magic, there’s your explanation :P
But in all seriousness, most of the abilitys classes use have no expanation. You start a character and only have very few skills at your command, then suddenly you learn all sorts of new spells as you train and gain more experience. It’s like that with specs too.
(edited by Windu The Forbidden One.6045)
There is no history here.
And what history is there?
Look at everything we have on druids. And it amounts to almost nothing. We know as much about the druids as we do about The Order.
We know they were once human. We know they gave up their flesh and blood bodies to become spectral beings, to become closer to nature. We know that they consider themselves stewards of the Maguuma.
But nothing else.
We don’t know how they chose to shepard the life of the Maguuma. We don’t know their practices, their rituals (sans one, for divination), their teachings (sans one – “all are divine”). We don’t know what – if anything – they worshiped or revered.
We know practically nothing.
They’re as big of a mystery as Wizard’s Tower.
Maybe we meet a jothun who got lost in the jungle and teaches us celestial power.
I mean, they like gazing at the stars, carve nice alien circles in stones. Who needs crops, you know.
Stone is much better to contact some celestial being. Doesn`t wither in the winter…
We’re going to be entering Maguuma itself and there’s no indication that the druids from GW1 are dead. It seems entirely likely that our rangers have been contacted by the spirits of the ancient druids and taught how to utilize their power, of which we, as Konig said, know absolutely NOTHING about. As to why they chose us, rangers are already capable of using nature magic and channeling nature spirits. They already have a deep respect for nature and a reverence for the creatures of Maguuma, and have come to Maguuma to defend it from a creature that seeks to corrupt everything the druids gave up their mortal lives to protect.
Rangers becoming druids makes perfect sense from a lore perspective, and what exactly druids were capable of was a massive blank spot in the lore until now. Obviously the druids of Maguuma were astronomers in addition to gardeners, which perfectly fits in with what a druid is in history and many fictions.
Not from space.
Space = nature.
Nature is not exclusive to Earth (or Tyria in this case).So what do we draw from this then?
The druid now has moon powers?
The closest is us summoning a spirit of the sun.
They have never gathered the forces to themselves, they have invoked forces.The implication is that we are becoming an avatar of a moon/druid spirit.
Such a bond requires more explanation. Avatar magic was not in the grasp of rangers before this spec, it was always with devout humans, and dervish/revenants.
There is no history here.
Please point me in the direction of lore that, in detail, provides evidence that they had without a doubt no relationship with astral forces.
In fact point me to the lore that states ANYTHING indepth about their civilization that isn’t related to their ultimate fate.
Spoilers: You won’t, we realistically know jack kitten about Druids in the lore.
(edited by Celestina.2894)
Not exactly. It is the use of avatars. It was a magical ability of the dervish, and now in revenants, which are the baby of ritualists and dervish.
Actually, I’d say they are unrelated because the Dervish was directly tapping into the power of the gods to become avatars, while the Revenant is using the mists and isn’t becoming an avatar at all.
It is assumed that a revenant is simply a dervish that is forced to use ritualist magic when the gods go silent. They become avatar of spirits instead of gods.
As for other points I see in the other comments.
The issue isn’t what druids can do. It’s what rangers can do.
The act of becoming an avatar is not what we considered to be under the ranger field of magic. It was always invocations of nature, not direct channeling.
In many cultures nature and space are entwined. Nature is defined as the phenomena of the physical world collectively. Collectively. D&D, LOTR and fantasy that followed, bent this to mean grass, plants, and animals. But there is much more to nature. The way the world moves around the sun is nature; the theories of the All is nature. It is just modern fantasy has become so saturated with the Drizzt/Legolass, that it is all people think of when they hear ranger/nature.
And quite frankly, its more interesting then ‘traditional’ rangers. Celestial lore is something that is lacking in lore, and this is great.
It is assumed that a revenant is simply a dervish that is forced to use ritualist magic when the gods go silent. They become avatar of spirits instead of gods.
Well, your assumption is wrong. Dervishes didn’t communicate with the Mists in any form.
Besides, we’ve been told about the details of revenant lore already. And it’s got nothing to do with dervishes.
The issue isn’t what druids can do. It’s what rangers can do.
The act of becoming an avatar is not what we considered to be under the ranger field of magic. It was always invocations of nature, not direct channeling.
So, what, humans can become the avatar of melandru or avatar of Grenth, regardless of profession – yes, including rangers – and necromancers can assume a large, spectral lich form. But rangers, already known to have magic across a wide range of elemental forces (from plants to earth to lightning to fire to ice to nature spirits) cannot do any such thing?
But your very opening was that druids had no ties to the stars. So now that you’ve been proven you can’t say that with certainty, you drop your original argument and adopt a new one?
It’s like saying mesmers can’t affect time!
And to your original argument that celestial magic has no place in lore: See Factions.
If you want to argue that druids have no relation to Factions: See the Wardens.
I agree wholeheartedly with Konig. When it comes to profession lore, I think the druid seems the most interesting to me.
As Konig says, we don’t know a lot about the druid background.
However, the main thing we know about druids, apart from that they lived in and with the jungle? Is that at some point prior to Guild Wars 1, they developed the ability to leave their physical forms behind and become a spiritual projection instead. The ‘astral form’ ability of the HoT druid is probably a nod to that.
Regarding the connection with sun, moon, etc: Historical druids knew very well that there were at least correlations between changes in the night sky and the passing of seasons and other changes in the natural world, suggesting that the two are connected. It’s hypothesised that the purpose of some parts of Stonehenge, for instance, is to demonstrate that the Sun and/or Moon are in particular places at particular points in time.
There’s also the dialogue from this quest, particularly the line about realising that we are all one. This may be indicating that the druid philosophy recognises, and potentially exploits, a connection between celestial bodies and themselves.
We also have the precedent of the Sun at least being linked to rangers through the Sun Spirit.
More broadly, although this is stepping a little into speculation, I tend to think that ranger and elementalist magic are different shades of essentially the same area of magic (similar for thieves and mesmers). Elementalist magic also has a precedent of influencing celestial bodies (meteors…) or being inspired by them (Star Burst), with more if you consider Zephyrite Aspect magic to also be a branch of elementalism (consider the Sun Aspect skills from the Aspect Arena).
It is assumed that a revenant is simply a dervish that is forced to use ritualist magic when the gods go silent. They become avatar of spirits instead of gods.
Well, your assumption is wrong. Dervishes didn’t communicate with the Mists in any form.
Besides, we’ve been told about the details of revenant lore already. And it’s got nothing to do with dervishes.
The issue isn’t what druids can do. It’s what rangers can do.
The act of becoming an avatar is not what we considered to be under the ranger field of magic. It was always invocations of nature, not direct channeling.
So, what, humans can become the avatar of melandru or avatar of Grenth, regardless of profession – yes, including rangers – and necromancers can assume a large, spectral lich form. But rangers, already known to have magic across a wide range of elemental forces (from plants to earth to lightning to fire to ice to nature spirits) cannot do any such thing?
But your very opening was that druids had no ties to the stars. So now that you’ve been proven you can’t say that with certainty, you drop your original argument and adopt a new one?
It’s like saying mesmers can’t affect time!
And to your original argument that celestial magic has no place in lore: See Factions.
If you want to argue that druids have no relation to Factions: See the Wardens.
Just because the premise of the original argument is faulty does not make the new argument incorrect.
Are you trying to say that druids learned how to channel celestial avatars from the humans who became avatars of the gods?
The entirety of their magic in gw1 had no basis in avatars, that was a dervish thing.
“Among the Dervish’s most precious secrets is that of transformation. The Dervish, when roused, may channel divine powers and change their form temporarily to become the physical embodiment of a god.”
So no one is answering how a ranger can now perform dervish magic. This just reminds me how stupid the racial elite is lorewise that suddenly thousands of humans can master dervish magic despite ANET’s insistence that mastering magic was like getting a PhD.
The ranger can also now comprehend glyph magic, which used to be bound only to the elementalist and is not as rudimentary as a well or a trap.
The celestials you referenced do not use lunar or solar magic. Nor does it explain how the rangers have contacts to canthan demigods. Becoming an avatar of those creatures would give him the skills of another profession.
So what celestials are the becoming avatars of?
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
So no one is answering how a ranger can now perform dervish magic. This just reminds me how stupid the racial elite is lorewise that suddenly thousands of humans can master dervish magic despite ANET’s insistence that mastering magic was like getting a PhD.
The human racials are Prayers. When I turn into a reaper of grenth, I do not invoke this magic myself. I simply ask Grenth to turn me into a reaper, and Grenth granted it. Even though the six gods have distanced themselves from our world, they still answer prayers.
I’d like to qoute a small conversation from Game of Thrones on this one:
Melisandre: You should not have this power.
Thoros of Myr: I have no power. I ask the Lord for His favor, and He responds as He will.
(edited by Windu The Forbidden One.6045)
The entirety of their magic in gw1 had no basis in avatars, that was a dervish thing.
“Among the Dervish’s most precious secrets is that of transformation. The Dervish, when roused, may channel divine powers and change their form temporarily to become the physical embodiment of a god.”
So no one is answering how a ranger can now perform dervish magic.
Because rangers (or druids rather) don’t use dervish magic. Yes they transform into an avatar, but it’s not an avatar of the gods and that is the important part. Dervish magic is not defined by their ability to transform, there are a lot of transformations in GW1 and 2, what defines dervishes is their connection to the gods. They are hermits that shut themself of from society, so they can only listen to the gods (or alteast that’s how they started). Druid are similar in technique, as they also leave civilisation, but the sorce of their power is nature, not the gods. So when they transform they do it with the help of nature magic, not divine magic.
This is an interesting discussion. I see what Daniel is saying, about how Rangers are now able to change into an avatar. It’s new, though if you think about it, besides ANET actually giving us an exact explanation, they HAVE told us that upon entering the jungle, the existing professions are able to master new abilities to take on the mordrem. Maybe the explanation to how the professions are evolving is not directly related to the ranger, but more related to the jungle. Because its not just the ranger that is able to do new things. Every profession can acquire new abilities, but only after entering the jungle, so to speak (purchasing HoT). Yes, each profession IS getting different abilities and I see how you’re saying they are not explaining why these abilities are going to the ranger. But maybe the reason the ranger is getting these abilities is because he/she IS A RANGER. Guardians are able to wield a longbow now, because THEY ARE A GUARDIAN. I’m thinking that the jungle is causing each profession to develop in their own unique way, without needing an explanation or imposing restrictions on what can or can’t happen. That’s probably what ANET is doing because its a whole new place with new things and the professions need to develop to be able to survive better in the new environment.
Im kind of looking at it like X-Men, and each profession adaptation is kinda like a random mutation like an X-Man would have. Like this type of profession just develops this way because it’s the natural evolution of the profession.
Do you see what I mean? I don’t know if I’m correct in any way but it kinda seems like this. =)
Just because the premise of the original argument is faulty does not make the new argument incorrect.
But when you claim the original argument never existed, it does hinder your point.
Are you trying to say that druids learned how to channel celestial avatars from the humans who became avatars of the gods?
No, I’m saying that avatar magic isn’t all that unique as you make it out to be.
The entirety of their magic in gw1 had no basis in avatars, that was a dervish thing.
“Among the Dervish’s most precious secrets is that of transformation. The Dervish, when roused, may channel divine powers and change their form temporarily to become the physical embodiment of a god.”
So no one is answering how a ranger can now perform dervish magic. This just reminds me how stupid the racial elite is lorewise that suddenly thousands of humans can master dervish magic despite ANET’s insistence that mastering magic was like getting a PhD.
Nothing and no one says that druids use dervish magic.
I think you’re making a very fine mistake…
You seem to think that the term ‘avatar’ is unique unto the gods and the gods alone, and in turn unique unto the dervishes and the dervishes alone. This is not true in the least.
Avatar magic is merely temporary transformation. Almost every magical profession has a form of this – lich form, plague, tornado, moa form, all four norn transformations, etc. are all this.
Avatars are merely a representation of something bigger. Avatar magic is taking a temporary form of that something bigger. This is NOT unique to dervishes – you need to take that out of your head.
Dervishes were specialists in the magic, directed towards the forms of their gods, but not the only users of it.
The ranger can also now comprehend glyph magic, which used to be bound only to the elementalist and is not as rudimentary as a well or a trap.
And guardians can now use magical traps, and necromancers now learned how to raise their voice. And thieves learned how to throw daggers and punch really hard. Every profession learned something new.
Wells used to be unique solely to necromancers. Originally, they required a corpse to use. Now mesmers can use them? Not as rudimentary? I disagree.
The celestials you referenced do not use lunar or solar magic. Nor does it explain how the rangers have contacts to canthan demigods. Becoming an avatar of those creatures would give him the skills of another profession.
I was more referring to the skills Kuunavang blessed players with than Celestials. But to say they’re not solar? Do you know what solar means? Star. Celestials are stars.
So what celestials are the becoming avatars of?
Yet to be seen.
This is an interesting discussion. I see what Daniel is saying, about how Rangers are now able to change into an avatar. It’s new, though if you think about it, besides ANET actually giving us an exact explanation, they HAVE told us that upon entering the jungle, the existing professions are able to master new abilities to take on the mordrem. Maybe the explanation to how the professions are evolving is not directly related to the ranger, but more related to the jungle. Because its not just the ranger that is able to do new things. Every profession can acquire new abilities, but only after entering the jungle, so to speak (purchasing HoT). Yes, each profession IS getting different abilities and I see how you’re saying they are not explaining why these abilities are going to the ranger. But maybe the reason the ranger is getting these abilities is because he/she IS A RANGER. Guardians are able to wield a longbow now, because THEY ARE A GUARDIAN. I’m thinking that the jungle is causing each profession to develop in their own unique way, without needing an explanation or imposing restrictions on what can or can’t happen. That’s probably what ANET is doing because its a whole new place with new things and the professions need to develop to be able to survive better in the new environment.
Im kind of looking at it like X-Men, and each profession adaptation is kinda like a random mutation like an X-Man would have. Like this type of profession just develops this way because it’s the natural evolution of the profession.
Do you see what I mean? I don’t know if I’m correct in any way but it kinda seems like this. =)
I actually like that explanation.
There is something they learn from the jungle that allows them to perform this. After all the ability to shout for guardians was learned when monks blended with paragon teachings. From this I would take that Rangers visiting the jungle were finally able to contact spirits that had been silent to them before.
Just because the premise of the original argument is faulty does not make the new argument incorrect.
But when you claim the original argument never existed, it does hinder your point.
I truly fail to see where I claim this.
Are you trying to say that druids learned how to channel celestial avatars from the humans who became avatars of the gods?
No, I’m saying that avatar magic isn’t all that unique as you make it out to be.
The entirety of their magic in gw1 had no basis in avatars, that was a dervish thing.
“Among the Dervish’s most precious secrets is that of transformation. The Dervish, when roused, may channel divine powers and change their form temporarily to become the physical embodiment of a god.”
So no one is answering how a ranger can now perform dervish magic. This just reminds me how stupid the racial elite is lorewise that suddenly thousands of humans can master dervish magic despite ANET’s insistence that mastering magic was like getting a PhD.
Nothing and no one says that druids use dervish magic.
I think you’re making a very fine mistake…
You seem to think that the term ‘avatar’ is unique unto the gods and the gods alone, and in turn unique unto the dervishes and the dervishes alone. This is not true in the least.
Avatar magic is merely temporary transformation. Almost every magical profession has a form of this – lich form, plague, tornado, moa form, all four norn transformations, etc. are all this.
Avatars are merely a representation of something bigger. Avatar magic is taking a temporary form of that something bigger. This is NOT unique to dervishes – you need to take that out of your head.
Dervishes were specialists in the magic, directed towards the forms of their gods, but not the only users of it.
“An avatar is a physical manifestation of one of the Human Gods or other powerful beings on the world on Tyria into a visible form, shape, or essence, all of which appear to be spiritual in nature and grant blessings. Aside from the Human Gods each possessing a specific avatar form, the only other known being that can project themselves elsewhere is Glint.”
Avatars are by no means limited to the gods. However, no other profession beyond dervish has had the ability to become an avatar of something else. The concept of forms has existed. But they do not call become the bear, avatar of bear. There is a different implication between you transforming into something, and you becoming an avatar of something. Avatar’s of Grenth spoke as Grenth. An ele does not speak as “tornado.” It is okay if your response to this is that the name is bad.
The ranger can also now comprehend glyph magic, which used to be bound only to the elementalist and is not as rudimentary as a well or a trap.
And guardians can now use magical traps, and necromancers now learned how to raise their voice. And thieves learned how to throw daggers and punch really hard. Every profession learned something new.
Wells used to be unique solely to necromancers. Originally, they required a corpse to use. Now mesmers can use them? Not as rudimentary? I disagree.
A glyph was metamagic. A well was releasing energy from a corpse and pulsing a consistent effect that fed off the releasing energy. Any profession that uses magic should be able to create wells. Glyphs are exceedingly more complicated in their variety of effects. Ele’s specialty was energy manipulation. Ranger has always been on the low tier of the classes with blatantly magically abilities.
The celestials you referenced do not use lunar or solar magic. Nor does it explain how the rangers have contacts to canthan demigods. Becoming an avatar of those creatures would give him the skills of another profession.
I was more referring to the skills Kuunavang blessed players with than Celestials. But to say they’re not solar? Do you know what solar means? Star. Celestials are stars.
Um. Solar refers to of the sun. And the blessings Kuunavang gave were profession specific. The ability that rangers were blessed with:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Celestial_Stance
is completely absent in this spec. Instead they selectively get skills resembling the blessings given to monks, warriors, and elementalists. We are still once again left with the question of how rangers are contacting canthan demigods.
So what celestials are the becoming avatars of?
Yet to be seen.
Where the sudden power bump for rangers is coming come I don’t know. Of all the professions. They alone gain abilities that do not upgrade, or alter, an existing mechanic.
I truly fail to see where I claim this.
Your very first post…
Avatars are by no means limited to the gods. However, no other profession beyond dervish has had the ability to become an avatar of something else.
Norn.
Besides, aside from the name “avatar” this is nothing more than a transformation skill that alter’s ones skills and capabilities – no different from lich form in concept.
There is a different implication between you transforming into something, and you becoming an avatar of something. Avatar’s of Grenth spoke as Grenth.
No, the Avatar of Grenth spoke as the Avatar of Grenth.
A glyph was metamagic.
Care to provide a source for this, or are you just pulling it out of your rear end?
Nothing really indicated that, aside from mechanics, glyphs were any more different than signets.
Ele’s specialty was energy manipulation. Ranger has always been on the low tier of the classes with blatantly magically abilities.
Since GW2, rangers have been using the same field of magic as elementalists (elemental/nature-based magic). It’s not really a stretch to argue that they become capable of similar things elementalists are when they delve even more into magic.
Um. Solar refers to of the sun.
And what’s the sun?
That’s right. A star!
Amazing!
We are still once again left with the question of how rangers are contacting canthan demigods.
Celestials are not demigods. They’re ascended souls of humans.
Where the sudden power bump for rangers is coming come I don’t know. Of all the professions. They alone gain abilities that do not upgrade, or alter, an existing mechanic.
Half of the druid’s magic is plant based. The other is celestial based.
That falls in line with ranger more than any other profession out there.
I agree with Konig, the druid lore is fine and the Avatar transformation isn’t all that unique. You seem to be starting to grasp at straws now OP.
(edited by Windu The Forbidden One.6045)
I truly fail to see where I claim this.
Your very first post…
Avatars are by no means limited to the gods. However, no other profession beyond dervish has had the ability to become an avatar of something else.
Norn.
Besides, aside from the name “avatar” this is nothing more than a transformation skill that alter’s ones skills and capabilities – no different from lich form in concept.
There is a different implication between you transforming into something, and you becoming an avatar of something. Avatar’s of Grenth spoke as Grenth.
No, the Avatar of Grenth spoke as the Avatar of Grenth.
A glyph was metamagic.
Care to provide a source for this, or are you just pulling it out of your rear end?
Nothing really indicated that, aside from mechanics, glyphs were any more different than signets.
Ele’s specialty was energy manipulation. Ranger has always been on the low tier of the classes with blatantly magically abilities.
Since GW2, rangers have been using the same field of magic as elementalists (elemental/nature-based magic). It’s not really a stretch to argue that they become capable of similar things elementalists are when they delve even more into magic.
Um. Solar refers to of the sun.
And what’s the sun?
That’s right. A star!
Amazing!
We are still once again left with the question of how rangers are contacting canthan demigods.
Celestials are not demigods. They’re ascended souls of humans.
Where the sudden power bump for rangers is coming come I don’t know. Of all the professions. They alone gain abilities that do not upgrade, or alter, an existing mechanic.
Half of the druid’s magic is plant based. The other is celestial based.
That falls in line with ranger more than any other profession out there.
I don’t understand your first remark. How does this have anything to do with me “claiming the original argument never existed”.
So now rangers are making contact with the ascended souls of humans? That makes total sense.
Nothing came from from my rear.
“A glyph is a type of skill and are used to alter the effects of the next one or more spells cast.” -http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Glyph
Ergo metamagic. And they all fell under elementalist’s classed based attribute.
Signets are implied to require almost no magical aptitude, but still remain magical in nature.
Second a sun is a star but not all stars are suns. I get you are trying to claim that celestial used star magic. But technically its not solar magic unless its of a star that had planets orbiting it. The star magic idea would be fine if not for the fact that none of the celestial blessings of the ranger make it to the druid. Instead you get approximations of the celestial abilities other classes could obtain in gw1. It would make more sense if the celestials were not canthan.
Is the druid suppose to be an enhancement of a rangers ability to interact with the spirit world? Can they give some explanation. Not of what Druids were in Gw1 which apparently was not celestials. But can they explain where this is coming from?
The Druid specialization references heavily to Weh No Su (“Closer to the Stars” in Canthan) from Guild Wars 1 Faction. So far the maguuma druids have never been associated with Weh No Su. So is this a massive lore hint from ArenaNet that says that the druids and Weh No Su are the same ?
The thematic behind Druids and Weh No Su have been so far very different. In Guild Wars 1 Druids lived in the Maguuma Jungle and practice Nature (as in plant magic) and Weh No Su was associated with astronomy. These are not mutually exclusive but are they related ?
I do not believe that Colin Johanson would have allowed such a massive lore mistake. I think there could be a relation between Druids and Weh No Su and ArenaNet has just given us a huge hint. But alas this just my opinion thus it is not proof that this could have been indeed a mistake.
ArenaNet are the only persons who can provide us some sort of clarification about this.
The Druid specialization references heavily to Weh No Su (“Closer to the Stars” in Canthan) from Guild Wars 1 Faction. So far the maguuma druids have never been associated with Weh No Su. So is this a massive lore hint from ArenaNet that says that the druids and Weh No Su are the same ?
The thematic behind Druids and Weh No Su have been so far very different. In Guild Wars 1 Druids lived in the Maguuma Jungle and practice Nature (as in plant magic) and Weh No Su was associated with astronomy. These are not mutually exclusive but are they related ?
I do not believe that Colin Johanson would have allowed such a massive lore mistake. I think there could be a relation between Druids and Weh No Su and ArenaNet has just given us a huge hint. But alas this just my opinion thus it is not proof that this could have been indeed a mistake.
ArenaNet are the only persons who can provide us some sort of clarification about this.
I don’t know where you are getting weh no su from. Perhaps its because the celestial avatar form resembles the celestials that were weh no su, and not the druids from gw1 that now look like oakhearts.
The game is a lore mess. What’d else could we expect?
NCSoft makes more games than it knows what to do with. We’re only in the fortunate situation that Wildstar and Aion aren’t doing great. For now, this is where they get their bread.
There’s really no way to reconcile the lore in this game from what it was in GW 1. The fall out comes from the lack of skills available to us. It works for balancing purposes. The less skills they have to do the math for the more they can focus on other things. Unfortunately, they’ve had 3 years to focus on other things and it’s not gone so well. Living Story only started to get good with Scarlet. Dynamic Events are too fast and unimportant to the larger context of the map they take place in to be meaningful whereas in older games an “event” earned its name. Silverwastes is the first time we’ve really seen any improvement toward this.
All of this sums up to a kind of very constrained situation where the lore pinched off unexpectedly as it intrudes into the territory of another section of lore; all of whom are converging on the same point. So, the Druid is a confusion of Augury Rock gone wrong.
The best solution you can squish out of the pinch is probably that the waking of the Elder Dragons so disrupts the flows of magic that we see some confusion as to how magic actually expresses itself. The experience we’re living through is the same reason why the races before Guild Wars 1 pleaded with the gods to fix magic. As the distinctions of magic overlap it leads to a convolution and reduction in the potential of any one singular kind of magic. For instance, our brain has receptor sites for different chemicals. It only has just so many. Imagine suddenly you get too many chemicals at one site. The brain wouldn’t be able to tell you what’s going on. It would only report what chemicals got slotted in. Similarly, Guild Wars 2 only has 10 ability slots on average per class and maybe some 40 skills in total. By contrast Guild Wars 1 had 8 slots, but some 1,000 + skills. End result? Our characters have more receptor sites, but less distinction than our Guild Wars 1 characters. That’s not to say they are less powerful since soloing any creature in Guild Wars 1 was usually something of a chore.
The Druid specialization references heavily to Weh No Su (“Closer to the Stars” in Canthan) from Guild Wars 1 Faction. So far the maguuma druids have never been associated with Weh No Su. So is this a massive lore hint from ArenaNet that says that the druids and Weh No Su are the same ?
The thematic behind Druids and Weh No Su have been so far very different. In Guild Wars 1 Druids lived in the Maguuma Jungle and practice Nature (as in plant magic) and Weh No Su was associated with astronomy. These are not mutually exclusive but are they related ?
I do not believe that Colin Johanson would have allowed such a massive lore mistake. I think there could be a relation between Druids and Weh No Su and ArenaNet has just given us a huge hint. But alas this just my opinion thus it is not proof that this could have been indeed a mistake.
ArenaNet are the only persons who can provide us some sort of clarification about this.
I don’t know where you are getting weh no su from. Perhaps its because the celestial avatar form resembles the celestials that were weh no su, and not the druids from gw1 that now look like oakhearts.
The druid mechanic name on the reveal page is “Closer to the Stars” and in Canthan it is “Weh No Su” along with the whole astrology thematic, the reference is strong. This is why I am asking if there is a connection between druids and Weh No Su. Could this be a massive lore hint from Anet ?
The Druid specialization references heavily to Weh No Su (“Closer to the Stars” in Canthan) from Guild Wars 1 Faction. So far the maguuma druids have never been associated with Weh No Su. So is this a massive lore hint from ArenaNet that says that the druids and Weh No Su are the same ?
The thematic behind Druids and Weh No Su have been so far very different. In Guild Wars 1 Druids lived in the Maguuma Jungle and practice Nature (as in plant magic) and Weh No Su was associated with astronomy. These are not mutually exclusive but are they related ?
I do not believe that Colin Johanson would have allowed such a massive lore mistake. I think there could be a relation between Druids and Weh No Su and ArenaNet has just given us a huge hint. But alas this just my opinion thus it is not proof that this could have been indeed a mistake.
ArenaNet are the only persons who can provide us some sort of clarification about this.
I don’t know where you are getting weh no su from. Perhaps its because the celestial avatar form resembles the celestials that were weh no su, and not the druids from gw1 that now look like oakhearts.
The druid mechanic name on the reveal page is “Closer to the Stars” and in Canthan it is “Weh No Su” along with the whole astrology thematic, the reference is strong. This is why I am asking if there is a connection between druids and Weh No Su. Could this be a massive lore hint from Anet ?
I missed that.
This is becoming very bizarre. You have this connection going on in the reveal. And you have druids becoming celestial avatars that resemble canthan celestials. What you have entirely absent is the oakhearts that druids are said to resemble.
And the Celestials resemble random animals. You’re focusing too much on what druid spirits looked like.
If Celestials have a connection to cosmic forces and looked like pigs and rats then why does the druid spirit resembling an astral oakheart make them incompatible with the same cosmic forces? Especially when there is no lore about what sort of powers the druids had.
Here are some druid quotes.
“All that exists is all that must be.”
“Time moves neither forward or back. Time is the lens of perception.”
“The spirit beholds the truths that the eye cannot see.”
“It is not often that we allow mortals to witness our rituals, but we see in you the seeds of the divine. To be divine is to realize that we are all one. That the self is an illusion. Through this do you understand your own immortality. Through this are you freed from the illusions of the flesh.
Do not rush your understanding of these mysteries. Allow them to take root and mature gradually within you as the seedling in the soil.”
They clearly worked with concepts that went beyond simple animals and plants. They spoke of time, immortality, divinity, and spirit. And most of all they spoke of a unity of all things, which would make their view of the cosmos as a whole being a part of “nature” perfectly thematic.
Not exactly. It is the use of avatars. It was a magical ability of the dervish, and now in revenants, which are the baby of ritualists and dervish.
Actually, I’d say they are unrelated because the Dervish was directly tapping into the power of the gods to become avatars, while the Revenant is using the mists and isn’t becoming an avatar at all.
It is assumed that a revenant is simply a dervish that is forced to use ritualist magic when the gods go silent. They become avatar of spirits instead of gods.
They said it’s not, given how the first known Revenant is Rytlock, who was not a dervish :P.
And the Celestials resemble random animals. You’re focusing too much on what druid spirits looked like.
If Celestials have a connection to cosmic forces and looked like pigs and rats then why does the druid spirit resembling an astral oakheart make them incompatible with the same cosmic forces? Especially when there is no lore about what sort of powers the druids had.
Here are some druid quotes.
“All that exists is all that must be.”
“Time moves neither forward or back. Time is the lens of perception.”
“The spirit beholds the truths that the eye cannot see.”“It is not often that we allow mortals to witness our rituals, but we see in you the seeds of the divine. To be divine is to realize that we are all one. That the self is an illusion. Through this do you understand your own immortality. Through this are you freed from the illusions of the flesh.
Do not rush your understanding of these mysteries. Allow them to take root and mature gradually within you as the seedling in the soil.”They clearly worked with concepts that went beyond simple animals and plants. They spoke of time, immortality, divinity, and spirit. And most of all they spoke of a unity of all things, which would make their view of the cosmos as a whole being a part of “nature” perfectly thematic.
Because the druid spirits were not celestials. Celestials are spirits of stars. Call it the celestial spec then. Rangers can already invoke nature spirits of sun, stone, frost, and storm. Perhaps they can invoke spirits of stars as well. This does not explain however why the spirits they become avatars of are star spirits and not druid spirits when that is the name of the specialization.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Suns and stars are the same thing. The only difference is that sun is the term we use for stars that have planets orbiting them. So making a distinction between the two seems arbitrary to me.
Secondly Celestials were not spirits of stars. They were mortal humans that, upon death, transcended mortality and became spirit beings. This is almost identical to what the Maguuma Druids did. They left their fleshy bodies to become spirits of a higher order. The two may not be perfectly identical but it’s clear there are similarities.
As for why they have a Celestial form, you’re not listening. Druids very well could have, and judging by the elite spec probably did, utilize magic relating to celestial bodies. Given there is no lore about what druids could do prior to becoming spirits and based on their life philosophy we learned in GW1 it’s entirely likely that astral and celestial spells were in their repertoire and that the spirits of the ancient druids have taught us said skills.
Really druid is the only elite spec that makes perfect sense to me. We’re learning the forgotten art of the druids from them when we enter Maguuma.
Edit: Why is kitten nal censored? Does Anet just hate stashes of weapons?
(edited by Ehecatl.9172)
Druids worshiped Melandru, who was the patron goddess of rangers. Rangers already tap into the power of nature spirits and are the only profession that might be able to summon the druid spirits forth to communicate with them. And unlike elementalists who bend the natural world to their will through magical manipulation, rangers have a deep reverence for nature and seek to live in harmony with it, not dominate it.
Such a bond requires more explanation.
Not really, rangers can utilize the power of nature, and that includes space. Simple as that.
I disagree. If you’re going to be that loose with the powers of a ranger, why not have them command the elements? Water is nature? Wind is nature? Earth is nature? Fire is nature? Why aren’t we also elementalists if we can just use anything that fits under the vague title of nature that encompasses everything as far as celestial bodies?
You are.
Rangers already have a range of elemental powers. They summon spirits of the elements, invoke fire and frost to harm their enemies, summon healing water to aid themselves and their allies, turn stone into mud to trap their foes, invoke the power of stone in signet form to protect them from harm, and channel lightning to escape their foes. Guild Wars 1 managed to maintain a certain plausible deniability on whether the elemental skills of the ranger were magic or fieldcraft, but in Guild Wars 2, they’re magic.
The distinction between ranger and elementalist is not one of what magic they use but how much. Elementalists rely on their magic for pretty much everything. Rangers are still physical combatants first, using magic to round out their capabilities rather than as their primary weapon. But at the bottom line, rangers are still using elemental magic, they just don’t define themselves by it as much as elementalists do, and they put more focus on the elements as part of nature rather than the elements in isolation.
Druids, as an elite specialisation, are simply rangers that have chosen to focus more into this side than most. The astral skills are taking it in a direction that elementalists haven’t, but can be viewed as a kind of arcane or ether attunement focused on healing. There are precedents indicating that elemental magic can be taken in a more cosmic direction, it’s just that the full elementalists haven’t taken things in that direction (and, for game mechanics reasons, probably never will in the GW2 context).
Rangers do absolutely nothing with their pet and gain a celestial death shroud that has nothing to do with what a ranger is. It’s not a progression of the ranger, it’s not an evolution of the ranger, it’s not thematically a ranger – it’s something new and that’s not what all the other elite specializations are.
Guardians becoming trapper rangers is a big departure from the guardians we know.
From a mechanical perspective, it actually seems as if guardians and rangers have swapped places a bit. Guardians get traps and a longbow, rangers get Tome of Courage as a class mechanic. The lore is a bit different, of course, but that’s pretty much what has happened from a gameplay perspective.
Like it or not, some of the elite specialisations are essentially the replacements for secondary professions. Dragonhunter is guardian/ranger. Druid, it would probably be fair to say, is essentially a ranger/monk. Some of the other elite specs are also essentially secondary professions when you look closely at them, although some are more obvious than others, and some are drawing from professions that aren’t in GW2 (druid as ranger/monk, reaper arguably as necromancer/dervish).
(edited by draxynnic.3719)
Suns and stars are the same thing. The only difference is that sun is the term we use for stars that have planets orbiting them. So making a distinction between the two seems arbitrary to me.
Secondly Celestials were not spirits of stars. They were mortal humans that, upon death, transcended mortality and became spirit beings. This is almost identical to what the Maguuma Druids did. They left their fleshy bodies to become spirits of a higher order. The two may not be perfectly identical but it’s clear there are similarities.
As for why they have a Celestial form, you’re not listening. Druids very well could have, and judging by the elite spec probably did, utilize magic relating to celestial bodies. Given there is no lore about what druids could do prior to becoming spirits and based on their life philosophy we learned in GW1 it’s entirely likely that astral and celestial spells were in their repertoire and that the spirits of the ancient druids have taught us said skills.
Really druid is the only elite spec that makes perfect sense to me. We’re learning the forgotten art of the druids from them when we enter Maguuma.
Edit: Why is kitten nal censored? Does Anet just hate stashes of weapons?
Your second point is completely wrong
“Celestials are the physical embodiment of the spirits of the stars. They are made of the starlight that shines down on the world. As such, celestials are not fleshy creatures. " The upon death ascended yes, but what they ascended into was start spirits.
And I am listening, but I don’t want to accept a premise that doesn’t make sense.
Your argument is that instead of becoming an avatar of a druid, you essentially become a druid, complete with moon power nonsense. Why you would learn from spirit krytan humans how to take the form of a canthan supernatural entity is beyond me.
Your second point is completely wrong
“Celestials are the physical embodiment of the spirits of the stars. They are made of the starlight that shines down on the world. As such, celestials are not fleshy creatures. " The upon death ascended yes, but what they ascended into was start spirits.
And I am listening, but I don’t want to accept a premise that doesn’t make sense.
Your argument is that instead of becoming an avatar of a druid, you essentially become a druid, complete with moon power nonsense. Why you would learn from spirit krytan humans how to take the form of a canthan supernatural entity is beyond me.
The way you phrased it made it sound like you thought Celestials were star spirits and only star spirits. That’s why I pointed out that they were ascended humans. Exactly like druids. Druids and celestials are both humans who lost their physical body and transcended flesh to become spirits.
My argument isn’t that we become celestials but that celestials and druids share a magical theme. We don’t become celestials or druid spirits because we would need to die to do that based on the evidence we have. The Astral Avatar form is us tapping into a cosmic power and channeling it similar to how necromancers tap into the power of death to gain a death shroud. They don’t actually become an Avatar of Grenth. We are connecting to the greater natural energy of the universe. All is one. That is the core philosophy of Tyrian druids. We become the all, so to speak. Or at least borrow from it.
Nothing in lore says druids only used plant magic. It’s really just your personal view that is stopping you from accepting what the new lore is trying to tell us.
What if Ascension and Weh no Su would be part of HoT? Or might be there are missions to unlock the elite spec with lore explanation?
What if Ascension and Weh no Su would be part of HoT? Or might be there are missions to unlock the elite spec with lore explanation?
I don’t think they would hide elite specs behind story mission, after all there are people who only play WvW for example and that would force them, against there will, into PvE. Anet usually respects such players, by not gating gameplay content like this.
That said, yes we might ascend during the storyline, after all it looks like we get to meet the Mursaat again and those guys are invisible to the naked mortal eye, unless you are ascended. Though it is more likely that they will just reveal themself to us, if they even are Mursaat. However we already had a mock ascension ritual to get some divine fire during the LS, so maybe we do something like that again, to gain more divine fire.
Keep in mind, that ascension was bound to certain places, the only one we know in Tyria was in the Crystal Desert, so pretty much the other side of the continent. Unless they give us a new place, from which to ascend (the temple of Balthazar maybe?), it seems unlikely that we will.
Such a bond requires more explanation.
Not really, rangers can utilize the power of nature, and that includes space. Simple as that.
I disagree. If you’re going to be that loose with the powers of a ranger, why not have them command the elements? Water is nature? Wind is nature? Earth is nature? Fire is nature?
As draxynnic already explained indepth, Rangers do use elemental powers. The reason they don’t do it as much as elementalists is because Rangers decided to specialize in different aspects of nature.
(edited by Windu The Forbidden One.6045)
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