Guild Wars 2

Elementalists and Rangers both connected to nature.
I would say my thoughts about that trying to reach immoratality with understanding of true self, nature etc. which specific druids.
Elementalists have longer lifespan. It is their way of grasping immortality due to understanding world.

Druids back to nature, droping flesh and being immortal. Elementalists after their life ends backs to nature as every dead matter decomposite. Rangers that didn’t go being druids also backs to nature as every dead matter decomposite.
So ways to back to nature/ultimate obcjetive:
Druid – immortality, no flesh. ||Ele – immortality, no flesh – how?* or Ele –
immortal body that refuse to back.
*Ranger – decomposition of flesh. || Ele – decomposition of flesh

That part about immorality of ele with no flesh – being elementals. Are elementalsjust infused with magic ancien things or elementalists that ascended into that form of their most appreaciated elements to be one.

Ele with immortal body, hmm I would like to have some info about that wizard in that towe. Maybe he finds in people, beings his true elements and turn them into it. Maybe he stay in that form to guide other not cuz of lust for eternal life.

I always remember Cynn and her white glowing eyes while casting meteor shower in guild wars prophecies trailer.

End of my theories:) cheers.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t understand your first remark. How does this have anything to do with me “claiming the original argument never existed”.

Your first comment was that celestial magic has no place in lore. Which you then denied the argument of later on.

Daniel Handler.4816:

So now rangers are making contact with the ascended souls of humans? That makes total sense.

No one ever said that, but it’s entirely possible.

My point was that

Daniel Handler.4816:

Nothing came from from my rear.
“A glyph is a type of skill and are used to alter the effects of the next one or more spells cast.” -http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Glyph
Ergo metamagic. And they all fell under elementalist’s classed based attribute.
Signets are implied to require almost no magical aptitude, but still remain magical in nature.

Mechanical function don’t define lore. Also, most glyphs fell under the ‘no attribute’ line in GW1.

There was 1 Air Magic Glyph, 1 Fire Magic Glyph, 3 Energy Storage Glyphs, and 8 No Attribute Glyphs.

So no, glyphs don’t “all fell under elementalists’ classed based attribute”. Not even half fall under any elementalist attribute.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Second a sun is a star but not all stars are suns. I get you are trying to claim that celestial used star magic. But technically its not solar magic unless its of a star that had planets orbiting it.

Let me put it this way:

All solar magic is star magic.

Not all star magic is solar magic.

Daniel Handler.4816:

It would make more sense if the celestials were not canthan.

They’re not – or rather, they’re not exclusively Canthan. The Celestial Pig, Chong, is from a time when humans were new on the world of Tyria. That means he’s from whatever land humans lived on before Cantha. Most likely, given our current lore, Sunrise Crest/Sunken Isles.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Is the druid suppose to be an enhancement of a rangers ability to interact with the spirit world? Can they give some explanation. Not of what Druids were in Gw1 which apparently was not celestials. But can they explain where this is coming from?

Most likely we’ll get that explanation in 2 months time, when HoT comes out. Anet outright stated that they disliked how they didn’t include profession lore in the core game and intend to do such with revenants and elite specializations. Hence why we see something like Marjory becoming a Reaper. Hence why two of the elite spec names and themes come from lore.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t understand your first remark. How does this have anything to do with me “claiming the original argument never existed”.

Your first comment was that celestial magic has no place in lore. Which you then denied the argument of later on.

Daniel Handler.4816:

So now rangers are making contact with the ascended souls of humans? That makes total sense.

No one ever said that, but it’s entirely possible.

My point was that

Daniel Handler.4816:

Nothing came from from my rear.
“A glyph is a type of skill and are used to alter the effects of the next one or more spells cast.” -http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Glyph
Ergo metamagic. And they all fell under elementalist’s classed based attribute.
Signets are implied to require almost no magical aptitude, but still remain magical in nature.

Mechanical function don’t define lore. Also, most glyphs fell under the ‘no attribute’ line in GW1.

There was 1 Air Magic Glyph, 1 Fire Magic Glyph, 3 Energy Storage Glyphs, and 8 No Attribute Glyphs.

So no, glyphs don’t “all fell under elementalists’ classed based attribute”. Not even half fall under any elementalist attribute.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Second a sun is a star but not all stars are suns. I get you are trying to claim that celestial used star magic. But technically its not solar magic unless its of a star that had planets orbiting it.

Let me put it this way:

All solar magic is star magic.

Not all star magic is solar magic.

Daniel Handler.4816:

It would make more sense if the celestials were not canthan.

They’re not – or rather, they’re not exclusively Canthan. The Celestial Pig, Chong, is from a time when humans were new on the world of Tyria. That means he’s from whatever land humans lived on before Cantha. Most likely, given our current lore, Sunrise Crest/Sunken Isles.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Is the druid suppose to be an enhancement of a rangers ability to interact with the spirit world? Can they give some explanation. Not of what Druids were in Gw1 which apparently was not celestials. But can they explain where this is coming from?

Most likely we’ll get that explanation in 2 months time, when HoT comes out. Anet outright stated that they disliked how they didn’t include profession lore in the core game and intend to do such with revenants and elite specializations. Hence why we see something like Marjory becoming a Reaper. Hence why two of the elite spec names and themes come from lore.

Perhaps this is a language issue. But it seemed as if you were saying I later denied I even made the argument. If you are using it in the logic sense that I negated my own earlier statement, then realise that the quality of an argument is more important than the quantity.

I don’t know why we are arguing the linguistic difference between solar or star. Its weird that when I make the statement lunar or solar you focus incredibly on proving that celestials used solar magic, while ignoring any of the lunar magic oddities and the fact that lunar=/=star.

I agree with the fact that the sun is a star. What I also believe is that you are assuming something of tyrian mythology.

In Japanese mythology, Amaterasu is the goddess of the sun, and she is at the head of her pantheon. Amatsu-Mikaboshi is the star god, and far lesser in power and importance. You assume that because the sun is a star, that all star spirits can perform sun magic.

You are correct on glyph attributes, I misread the wiki. At the same time. The skill used be specific to elementalist alone, and some of them were attributes of their profession. Mesmers and Necros have always been on the same tier as spellcasters. Rangers and Elementalists were not. After 250 years rangers can perform some of their Rituals instantly. They seem to have become more efficient at casting their spells, but the complexity of the spells have not increased. The power level between a druid and a ranger is much higher than any other class and their elite specialization. They are raised to spellcaster tier suddenly.

There is no before cantha as far as history is concerned.

“The northern coastline of Cantha is the earliest known location of human settlements, dating back to the late pre-imperial era, 276 years before the beginning of the Canthan calendar, and predating the earliest known human presence in Tyria and Elona by 581 years.”

It is implied that humans were brought by the gods to cantha, and spread out from there.

Shiren.9532:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Such a bond requires more explanation.

Not really, rangers can utilize the power of nature, and that includes space. Simple as that.

I disagree. If you’re going to be that loose with the powers of a ranger, why not have them command the elements? Water is nature? Wind is nature? Earth is nature? Fire is nature? Why aren’t we also elementalists if we can just use anything that fits under the vague title of nature that encompasses everything as far as celestial bodies? Isn’t that a lot less extreme than space? How does a beast master go from using swords and bows and taming animals of the wild to channeling the powers of the universe and firing cosmic laser beams?

I get it. Everything is nature. I get the completely worthless point that druids IRL do stuff that does not matter in Tyria. I don’t get how astral form is a natural progression for a ranger. Aesthetically it looks wrong, thematically it’s too far from the ranger.

What bugs me most is it has nothing to do with the ranger’s bond with pets – our core mechanic. Warriors had adrenaline evolving intoa berserker who more frequently release their adrenaline, elementalists are able to saturate their power the longer they stay in attunement, guardians are able to manifest their virtues into a more corporeal effect, necromancers hone their death shroud into a bringer of death, mesmers can use their shatters to gain a new powerful effect, thieves evolved their evasive physicality into a third dodge and continue to use inititiative.

Rangers do absolutely nothing with their pet and gain a celestial death shroud that has nothing to do with what a ranger is. It’s not a progression of the ranger, it’s not an evolution of the ranger, it’s not thematically a ranger – it’s something new and that’s not what all the other elite specializations are.

Not long ago there was a druid specialization datamined that included glyphs and something called aspects. It seemed to imply we would get a profession that would tap into aspects of different animals to enhance our glyphs and possibly even stats or weapons skills based on the different animals. This matches the flavour and theme of the ranger, it gives us spells and it matched the imagery of the shoulders and staff – bramble wood etched with iconic images of the wild beasts rangers are bonded with. Instead we ended up with something that has no connection with our pet at all and bypasses natural life on earth with some abstract references to the moon and stars. I’m sure moonkin druids from WoW are happy, but this is a bizarre evolution from what a ranger is at its core.

I personally am ok with the current class mechanic, but i totally agree with you about the celestial theme really not matching the druid, and you explained that part really well.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Perhaps this is a language issue. But it seemed as if you were saying I later denied I even made the argument. If you are using it in the logic sense that I negated my own earlier statement, then realise that the quality of an argument is more important than the quantity.

That is what you did, and what I’ve been saying. The argument you made at the beginning you later said you did not make.

Which is why I’m saying that the quality of your argument begins to sound like you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing, and not because you actually believe what your fingers are typing.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t know why we are arguing the linguistic difference between solar or star. Its weird that when I make the statement lunar or solar you focus incredibly on proving that celestials used solar magic, while ignoring any of the lunar magic oddities and the fact that lunar=/=star.

By my understanding both the druid’s magic and celestial magic utilizes the same concept:

Light from the sky.

In this case, then lunar, solar, and star magic would indeed be the same – because the source is irrelevant here, the fact that light exists in the sky is.

The point in my argument was that creating a distinction is pointless as there is none. Nowhere in the druid article is it called “solar magic” or “lunar magic” – we just have solar and lunar themed skill names. As well as astral (star) themed skill names.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I agree with the fact that the sun is a star. What I also believe is that you are assuming something of tyrian mythology.

In Japanese mythology, Amaterasu is the goddess of the sun, and she is at the head of her pantheon. Amatsu-Mikaboshi is the star god, and far lesser in power and importance. You assume that because the sun is a star, that all star spirits can perform sun magic.

Daniel Handler.4816:

You are correct on glyph attributes, I misread the wiki. At the same time. The skill used be specific to elementalist alone, and some of them were attributes of their profession. Mesmers and Necros have always been on the same tier as spellcasters. Rangers and Elementalists were not. After 250 years rangers can perform some of their Rituals instantly. They seem to have become more efficient at casting their spells, but the complexity of the spells have not increased. The power level between a druid and a ranger is much higher than any other class and their elite specialization. They are raised to spellcaster tier suddenly.

Traps were unique to rangers in GW1. Yet now they are used by thieves and suddenly guardians.

Mesmers were not on the same tier as spellcasters as Necromancers. Their magic are two completely different spheres – two different schools of magic, two different magical energies.

Rangers in GW1 could practice elementalism – see dual professions – and in the time since GW2 they only became even more magically adept. Your argument makes no sense.

Daniel Handler.4816:

There is no before cantha as far as history is concerned.

My point was that celestials predate Cantha and thus trying to link Celestials solely to Cantha is foolhardy and incorrect. Nothing prevents the Celestial teachings to have been passed down to ancient Krytans from before the Exodus and only remembered by a single offshoot of them – the druids.

Daniel Handler.4816:

It is implied that humans were brought by the gods to cantha, and spread out from there.

Nowhere is that implied in what you quoted. In fact, we outright know that humans lived on another land before Cantha – see this interview as ONE source. And the fact that humans arrived on the coastline of Cantha implies travel by ship.

They were brought to the world by the gods, then placed somewhere else, and by all indication sailed out to Cantha, Tyria, and Elona at a later date.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Perhaps this is a language issue. But it seemed as if you were saying I later denied I even made the argument. If you are using it in the logic sense that I negated my own earlier statement, then realise that the quality of an argument is more important than the quantity.

That is what you did, and what I’ve been saying. The argument you made at the beginning you later said you did not make.

Which is why I’m saying that the quality of your argument begins to sound like you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing, and not because you actually believe what your fingers are typing.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t know why we are arguing the linguistic difference between solar or star. Its weird that when I make the statement lunar or solar you focus incredibly on proving that celestials used solar magic, while ignoring any of the lunar magic oddities and the fact that lunar=/=star.

By my understanding both the druid’s magic and celestial magic utilizes the same concept:

Light from the sky.

In this case, then lunar, solar, and star magic would indeed be the same – because the source is irrelevant here, the fact that light exists in the sky is.

The point in my argument was that creating a distinction is pointless as there is none. Nowhere in the druid article is it called “solar magic” or “lunar magic” – we just have solar and lunar themed skill names. As well as astral (star) themed skill names.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I agree with the fact that the sun is a star. What I also believe is that you are assuming something of tyrian mythology.

In Japanese mythology, Amaterasu is the goddess of the sun, and she is at the head of her pantheon. Amatsu-Mikaboshi is the star god, and far lesser in power and importance. You assume that because the sun is a star, that all star spirits can perform sun magic.

Daniel Handler.4816:

You are correct on glyph attributes, I misread the wiki. At the same time. The skill used be specific to elementalist alone, and some of them were attributes of their profession. Mesmers and Necros have always been on the same tier as spellcasters. Rangers and Elementalists were not. After 250 years rangers can perform some of their Rituals instantly. They seem to have become more efficient at casting their spells, but the complexity of the spells have not increased. The power level between a druid and a ranger is much higher than any other class and their elite specialization. They are raised to spellcaster tier suddenly.

Traps were unique to rangers in GW1. Yet now they are used by thieves and suddenly guardians.

Mesmers were not on the same tier as spellcasters as Necromancers. Their magic are two completely different spheres – two different schools of magic, two different magical energies.

Rangers in GW1 could practice elementalism – see dual professions – and in the time since GW2 they only became even more magically adept. Your argument makes no sense.

Daniel Handler.4816:

There is no before cantha as far as history is concerned.

My point was that celestials predate Cantha and thus trying to link Celestials solely to Cantha is foolhardy and incorrect. Nothing prevents the Celestial teachings to have been passed down to ancient Krytans from before the Exodus and only remembered by a single offshoot of them – the druids.

Daniel Handler.4816:

It is implied that humans were brought by the gods to cantha, and spread out from there.

Nowhere is that implied in what you quoted. In fact, we outright know that humans lived on another land before Cantha – see this interview as ONE source. And the fact that humans arrived on the coastline of Cantha implies travel by ship.

They were brought to the world by the gods, then placed somewhere else, and by all indication sailed out to Cantha, Tyria, and Elona at a later date.

I would like you to quote what denial you are talking about in the first comment. Perhaps this is a language issue.

Dude. You can’t seriously make a light from the sky argument or else you could equate the fire made by elementalist to that of a guardian.

The article you linked refers to a possibility not a certainty. If celestials are part of achieving Weh no Suh, why are they entirely absent in ascending?

When I said tier of spellcaster. I meant level of magic use versus weaponry. You took two different professions each magical, and then asked them to make a pulsing aoe of their profession. For traps you again are taking a generic concept and apply it.

But then you get to a ranger who is not a spellcaster profession, and as much as you want to declare it does not use elemental magic, and then suddenly they are using magic at the level of an elementalist.

Rangers are not elementalist. They do not use elemental magic. Plants do not equal water+earth any more than a guardian is using elemental magic because holy fire is holy + fire. When you reduce nature magic to elemental magic you completely disregard that it’s closest lore companion was the ritualists, as well as the spirit oriented aspect.

And none of this has anything to do with druids except in name. You are suppose to shirk your bodies like the druids except you don’t look like a Druid spirit when you do so.

All of the other specs were magnification of techniques already available to the profession.

Druid alone for some reason has the ranger learn a technique that goes beyond the assumed scope of the original profession and steals what were skills/concepts of the other profession (monks) and new (mesmers).

The very idea that a Druid can summon a black hole is made strange by the reality that gravity manipulation is a mesmer thing.

Lastly you keep mentioning dual professions which the current professions stopped to add mastery to their profession. When Rangers underwent this development what changed was a heightening of their beastmastery. Now advanced elemental magic requires a PhD. They are going to need a good reason why druids are at this level of magical complexity when their baseline nature magic is sub par in its complexity, to the point non ranger sylvari and other professions can mimic it. And the spirit part that was so unique is entirely absent in the specialization.

In the 250 years since gw1 (as was stated by the devs) the ranger started utilizing more magic, you can see this in his utilities such as sun/frost spirits,etc.

Nature magic is most definately elemental in nature. Just because ranger and elementalist focus on different aspects and uses of elemental magic, does not make it not elemental.

Rangers have always been somewhat magical, the specialization is the ranger specializing even more into that magic.

I have to add 250 years ago a ranger (Keiran Thackeray) became a paragon.
so to me it isnt a big stretch for a ranger to learn more spells (my ranger already shoot lightning from her hands and summon water springs!) and signets are magical
(even gw1 rangers had thos)

Daniel Handler.4816:

When you reduce nature magic to elemental magic you completely disregard that it’s closest lore companion was the ritualists, as well as the spirit oriented aspect.

Forgot to comment on this line earlier, but the ritualist is not the closest lore companion of the ranger. Ritualists draw their magic from the mists, which is something the ranger can’t and has never been able to do. Ritualists have a very unique source of magic that no other class in gw1 could tap into, before the gods gave humans magic, ritualists were already practicing their craft. The closest lore companion to the ritualist is the recently revealed revenant.

If you have a source that states otherwise i’d happily take it back, but this claim is quite unfounded.

Daniel Handler.4816:

When you reduce nature magic to elemental magic

No one is saying nature magic is just elemental magic, but elemental magic is part of nature magic. Having two profession tap into different aspects of the same type of magic and use them differently is not at all strange. The ranger and elementalist while both utilising aspects of nature, utilise different aspects in completely different ways.

Didn’t read any of the needlessly long comments here.

Druids were krytans who went into maguuma and shed their mortal form.

They were not from any other lore. They aren’t real world. They aren’t WoW.

Shed mortal form? Spirits? Astral? Celestial.

Seems to make sense with me.

Especially with the sun moon and stars being a huge part of natures cycle.

dsslive.8473:

Daniel Handler.4816:

When you reduce nature magic to elemental magic you completely disregard that it’s closest lore companion was the ritualists, as well as the spirit oriented aspect.

Forgot to comment on this line earlier, but the ritualist is not the closest lore companion of the ranger. Ritualists draw their magic from the mists, which is something the ranger can’t and has never been able to do. Ritualists have a very unique source of magic that no other class in gw1 could tap into, before the gods gave humans magic, ritualists were already practicing their craft. The closest lore companion to the ritualist is the recently revealed revenant.

If you have a source that states otherwise i’d happily take it back, but this claim is quite unfounded.

I believe Daniel is talking about nature rituals in particular, but I could be wrong. Nature Magic, as an area of expertise for the Ranger, didn’t exist in GW1. Almost all of the nature rituals in GW1 came from two Ranger attributes: Wilderness Survival and Beastmastery(Marksmanship and Expertise had 1 each). Knowing that, it would be relatively safe to assume that nature rituals involved communing with the plants and animals of Tyria, and not necessarily the cosmos.

Rituals themselves could only be performed by Rangers or Ritualists(nature rituals and binding rituals respectively), that might be the connection Daniel was trying to infer. It’s also important to note that the Ranger attribute Expertise worked not just with nature rituals, but binding rituals as well. So there has to be some real connection there between Rangers and Ritualists…if only in terms of rituals.

So while Rangers could not directly “tap into” the source of the Ritualist’s powers, they could certainly interact with and modify it. They both “communed” with spirits, it’s just that the Ranger did so with nature spirits(Tyria) and the Rit with ancestral spirits(The Mists)….since, I guess, animals and plants didn’t have an afterlife apparently. :-P

Obsidian.1328:

dsslive.8473:

Daniel Handler.4816:

When you reduce nature magic to elemental magic you completely disregard that it’s closest lore companion was the ritualists, as well as the spirit oriented aspect.

Forgot to comment on this line earlier, but the ritualist is not the closest lore companion of the ranger. Ritualists draw their magic from the mists, which is something the ranger can’t and has never been able to do. Ritualists have a very unique source of magic that no other class in gw1 could tap into, before the gods gave humans magic, ritualists were already practicing their craft. The closest lore companion to the ritualist is the recently revealed revenant.

If you have a source that states otherwise i’d happily take it back, but this claim is quite unfounded.

I believe Daniel is talking about nature rituals in particular, but I could be wrong. Nature Magic, as an area of expertise for the Ranger, didn’t exist in GW1. Almost all of the nature rituals in GW1 came from two Ranger attributes: Wilderness Survival and Beastmastery(Marksmanship and Expertise had 1 each). Knowing that, it would be relatively safe to assume that nature rituals involved communing with the plants and animals of Tyria, and not necessarily the cosmos.

Rituals themselves could only be performed by Rangers or Ritualists(nature rituals and binding rituals respectively), that might be the connection Daniel was trying to infer. It’s also important to note that the Ranger attribute Expertise worked not just with nature rituals, but binding rituals as well. So there has to be some real connection there between Rangers and Ritualists…if only in terms of rituals.

So while Rangers could not directly “tap into” the source of the Ritualist’s powers, they could certainly interact with and modify it. They both “communed” with spirits, it’s just that the Ranger did so with nature spirits(Tyria) and the Rit with ancestral spirits(The Mists)….since, I guess, animals and plants didn’t have an afterlife apparently. :-P

Exactly. Or as the game puts it
“Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master.”

In the 250 years since gw1 (as was stated by the devs) the ranger started utilizing more magic, you can see this in his utilities such as sun/frost spirits,etc.
Nature magic is most definately elemental in nature. Just because ranger and elementalist focus on different aspects and uses of elemental magic, does not make it not elemental.
Rangers have always been somewhat magical, the specialization is the ranger specializing even more into that magic.

This “more” is almost completely unchanged from 250 years ago.
The frost spirit is a just a modification of the winter skill they had. As is most of the magic they practice they currently practice a modification of gw1. Their uniqueness then and now comes from their spirit aspects, and that is what defines their “nature magic” traitline today. Back then most of the skills that the ranger performs unaided today were done with the use of spirits.

The only improvement they seem to have made is performing nature magic without requiring the direct invocation of a corresponding spirit. Or at least one we can see.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Muddy_Terrain
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Muddy_Terrain

This is not them performing elemental magic. It is spirit magic.

A reminder it took necromancers 250 years to be able to gather and maintain lifeforce. It took rangers 1 year to learn how to gather and maintain astral force.The implication is that druids became avatars of celestial spirits in order to invoke their powers. But as not all of druid magic is clearly celestial, wouldn’t you want to just become an avatar of druids?

Daniel Handler.4816:

This “more” is almost completely unchanged from 250 years ago.
The frost spirit is a just a modification of the winter skill they had. As is most of the magic they practice they currently practice a modification of gw1. Their uniqueness then and now comes from their spirit aspects, and that is what defines their “nature magic” traitline today. Back then most of the skills that the ranger performs unaided today were done with the use of spirits.

The only improvement they seem to have made is performing nature magic without requiring the direct invocation of a corresponding spirit. Or at least one we can see.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Muddy_Terrain
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Muddy_Terrain

This is not them performing elemental magic. It is spirit magic.

Calling roots to entangle your enemy and turning rock/terrain to mud has nothing to do with spirits. It has to do with controlling the material world, with that elemental aspect that’s part of their magic.

Them moving more closely to magic, which is noticable by the very addition of nature magic, muddy terrain and entangle being examples of them moving closer to magic, not to mention it’s not a theory, it’s a fact that they did move closer to magic. Specializing in druid only means those rangers that do, delved even further into magic. Specializations have always been about your character which is x profession to further explore y element to become Z specialization. Due to mechanics its reflected as if this is an overnight thing, but they specialized themselves in that field, learning it and mastering it.

dsslive.8473:

Daniel Handler.4816:

This “more” is almost completely unchanged from 250 years ago.
The frost spirit is a just a modification of the winter skill they had. As is most of the magic they practice they currently practice a modification of gw1. Their uniqueness then and now comes from their spirit aspects, and that is what defines their “nature magic” traitline today. Back then most of the skills that the ranger performs unaided today were done with the use of spirits.

The only improvement they seem to have made is performing nature magic without requiring the direct invocation of a corresponding spirit. Or at least one we can see.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Muddy_Terrain
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Muddy_Terrain

This is not them performing elemental magic. It is spirit magic.

Calling roots to entangle your enemy and turning rock/terrain to mud has nothing to do with spirits. It has to do with controlling the material world, with that elemental aspect that’s part of their magic.

Them moving more closely to magic, which is noticable by the very addition of nature magic, muddy terrain and entangle being examples of them moving closer to magic, not to mention it’s not a theory, it’s a fact that they did move closer to magic. Specializing in druid only means those rangers that do, delved even further into magic. Specializations have always been about your character which is x profession to further explore y element to become Z specialization. Due to mechanics its reflected as if this is an overnight thing, but they specialized themselves in that field, learning it and mastering it.

All of the skills you are referring too existed 250 years ago. They didn’t move closer to anything. The just mastered their basics. What is implied is that nature magic is now the leftover skills that they haven’t mastered. Skills that are still stuck at the point where they can’t do them without the spirit becoming corporeal.

Nor does it seem you read the links I posted because what muddy terrain was before was:
“Nature Ritual. Create a level 1…8…10 spirit. Non-spirit creatures within its range move 10% slower and speed boosts have no effect. This spirit dies after 30…78…90 seconds.Nature Ritual. Create a level 1…8…10 spirit. Non-spirit creatures within its range move 10% slower and speed boosts have no effect. This spirit dies after 30…78…90 seconds.”

They aren’t don’t use elemental magic. In gw1 they for the most part require the intercession of a spirit to perform the action. All that seems to be happening in gw2 is now they are closer to spirits and can call forth the intercession without the use of an elaborate ritual.

Even if they portray the druid as a progression of the spirit magic a ranger practices. From rituals in gw1, to direct invocation, to avatar.
It would not make sense for them to become avatars of celestials as oppose to avatar of the druid spirits. Celestials would just be one aspect of a druids power.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Even if they portray the druid as a progression of the spirit magic a ranger practices. From rituals in gw1, to direct invocation, to avatar.
It would not make sense for them to become avatars of celestials as oppose to avatar of the druid spirits. Celestials would just be one aspect of a druids power.

Yes celestials is one aspect of a druids power, that’s why they’re able to call upon it to turn themselves into a celestial avatar. The reason why they dont become a avatar of the druid spirits, is because the druid isn’t calling upon the druid spirits for his healing, he’s channeling the celestial power to do that.

They aren’t calling upon the powers of ancient celestials, they become an avatar infused with celestial magic, they aren’t channeling the magic of the celestials, but channeling the sun, the moon and the stars.

I still see a lot of elemental magic in the ranger, while not as confined to certain elements and as overabundant as the elementalist, there is elemental magic in there, but ye they also use spirit magic, as is seen with the spirits the call.

But as to the whole ranger suddenly being able to use magic, i still believe this is purely mechanical (due to the whole no quests thing in gw2) that they suddenly use a power they couldn’t before. But in lore , a ranger has to train himself and master the aspects of becoming a druid, it’s not a decision made overnight. Something that cannot really be portrayed ingame.

A lot of this can be attributed to ANet trying to portray GW2 skills as their GW1 equivalents…even though combat mechanics are drastically different between the two. For instance, the Skirmishing line in GW2 reflects the melee potential of a Ranger…something that didn’t even exist in GW1 unless you used a secondary profession. Expertise isn’t needed at all in GW2 as there is no energy pool; which is the niche, oddly enough, that Nature Magic fills…even though the two have little to do with each other.

@dsslive
I don’t agree that Rangers in GW1 used “elemental” magic, at least for the overwhelming majority of uses. For instance, a GW1 skill like Kindle Arrows isn’t supposed to mean the ranger invoked the element of fire, it’s supposed to mean he/she actually knows how to fabricate a flaming arrowhead using his experience as a marksman and wilderness survivalist. The game itself didn’t make any damage distinction, in terms of combat
mechanics, between magically invoked fire, and “regular” fire. But if you’re counting a stick on fire as “elemental” in nature, then you might as well count snow, dirt, and wind as “magical elementals”…which doesn’t really make any sense. The magic of an Elementalist comes from bending the natural elements to his/her will, not from simply using it.

If the ranger really wanted to inflict “magical” elemental damage to a creature, they’d have to attach a fire modification to the weapon itself(in this case a fiery bowstring), and still further become an 2nd profession Elementalist and use Conjure Flame to actually make use of that bowstring. Kindle Arrows does the same thing though…without the use of magic at all.

Conflagration on the third hand, doesn’t utilize Elementalist magic nor physically-prepared fire at all. It involves the ranger invoking a Nature Spirit that provides the fire damage. In other words, the spirit is the conduit through which the fire is evoked.

Obsidian.1328:

@dsslive
I don’t agree that Rangers in GW1 used “elemental” magic, at least for the overwhelming majority of uses. For instance, a GW1 skill like Kindle Arrows isn’t supposed to mean the ranger invoked the element of fire, it’s supposed to mean he/she actually knows how to fabricate a flaming arrowhead using his experience as a marksman and wilderness survivalist. The game itself didn’t make any damage distinction, in terms of combat
mechanics, between magically invoked fire, and “regular” fire. But if you’re counting a stick on fire as “elemental” in nature, then you might as well count snow, dirt, and wind as “magical elementals”…which doesn’t really make any sense. The magic of an Elementalist comes from bending the natural elements to his/her will, not from simply using it.

If the ranger really wanted to inflict “magical” elemental damage to a creature, they’d have to attach a fire modification to the weapon itself(in this case a fiery bowstring), and still further become an 2nd profession Elementalist and use Conjure Flame to actually make use of that bowstring. Kindle Arrows does the same thing though…without the use of magic at all.

Conflagration on the third hand, doesn’t utilize Elementalist magic nor normal fire at all. It involves the ranger invoking a Nature Spirit that provides the fire damage. In other words, the spirit is the conduit through which the fire is evoked.

I wasn’t talking about the gw1 ranger when it comes to there being elemental magic, but the gw2 ranger, who’s said to have moved more towards magic in the 250 year gap between the two games.

I also never claimed kindled fire was anything other than a ranger fabricating a flaming arrow, so not sure what the point of that was.

My comments on the use of elemental magic comes from the current (gw2 version) ranger, who summons vines to entangle his opponents, turns stone/terrain into mud and creates a spring to heal his allies.

All which show some form of magic that has an effect on elemental based susbstances.

@dsslive
But the GW2 ranger is directly derived from the GW1 ranger, unless I missed something. Muddy Terrain used to be a spirit-based skill, now it’s just a utility skill. So the two can’t really be directly related. Furthermore, the GW2 version not only does not imply magic, it’s also in the Wilderness Survival traitline…which heavily implies simple ranger cunning, like traps or condition effectiveness. Things like Troll Unguent, Healing Spring, or even Entangle aren’t supposed to presume “magic” use, they are survival skills the ranger has learned in the wilds. Entangle itself is supposed to imply a ranger using nearby vines and roots to “entangle” and bleed his/her target…not to conjure magical vines out of thin air.

@dsslive
If what your saying about the Ranger is true, then you might as well include Warriors and Engineers as “magic-users” too…since their physical combat mechanics are little different from a Rangers.

Obsidian.1328:

@dsslive
But the GW2 ranger is directly derived from the GW1 ranger, unless I missed something. Muddy Terrain used to be a spirit-based skill, now it’s just a utility skill. So the two can’t really be directly related. Furthermore, the GW2 version not only does not imply magic, it’s also in the Wilderness Survival traitline…which heavily implies simple ranger cunning, like traps or condition effectiveness. Things like Troll Unguent, Healing Spring, or even Entangle aren’t supposed to presume “magic” use, they are survival skills the ranger has learned in the wilds. Entangle itself is supposed to imply a ranger using nearby vines and roots to “entangle” and bleed his/her target…not to conjure magical vines out of thin air.

Ofcourse magic isn’t all that the ranger is about, i never claimed it to be. But entangle is not supposed to be the ranger using nearby vines to root, it’s calling out of vines.
It’s been stated by the devs themselves that rangers moved more towards magic.
Muddy terrain used to be a ritual, but now the ranger throws it out without even needing to do that, how does that not show the ranger becoming more adapt at using that magic if it requires less focus/input for him to pull it off.

There is the very line called “nature magic” how is there even a doubt that rangers call upon magic. It’s not implying anything, it’s directly stated to be so. Calling about a spring to heal your allies, changing the terrain to mud, calling out vines (yes this isn’t supposed to imply that the ranger grabbed some vines nearby to entangle his opponent with) he calls spirits to aid him, all of these things are very much magical in nature.

Obsidian.1328:

@dsslive
If what your saying about the Ranger is true, then you might as well include Warriors and Engineers as “magic-users” too…since their physical combat mechanics are little different from a Rangers.

Not sure what you mean by this, maybe some examples or more explanation , but i’ll try to see if i can guess it and hope my reply is not wasted because you meant something differently.

Warriors do use a light form of innate magic in the form of symbols, but aside from that; warriors don’t need to have their bolas magically appear when they throw them, you see them being thrown. If the ranger just uses vines he finds laying around, the animation would be of the ranger throwing something outwards, not of the ranger summoning vines out of the ground to entangle all the opponents around them.

As for the engineer, the engineers few “magical” looking abilites come from his elixers which are potions carefully made, to create that affect.

More i can’t really add to this without some clarification

I don’t see ranger using elemental magic himself in GW2 either – for me it all comes down to communicating with the eviromental spirits, which do the magic for him, e.g. begging to the spirits of the woods to send their roots and vines (= “Entangle”) or to enrich the water in the little groundhole he dug with nutrients, etc.pp. in return to protect the nature. He don’t force stuff with elemental magic like an elementalist.

Amraston.2846:

I don’t see ranger using elemental magic himself in GW2 either – for me it all comes down to communicating with the eviromental spirits, which do the magic for him, e.g. begging to the spirits of the woods to send their roots and vines (= “Entangle”) or to enrich the water in the little groundhole he dug with nutrients, etc.pp. in return to protect the nature. He don’t force stuff with his magic like an elementalist.

True, that is definately shown more obviously in the spirits he summons, what i do wonder about is whether it is indeed about calling upon the spirits to summon those vines and such or whether it’s to be seen as something more leaning towards elemental.

Especially with the druid calling upon even more of that, calling about a wave of water to push back enemies, more vines ofc and makes me wonder if the ranger got quite more adept at nature rituals as in no longer needing to go through it all, or whether he found a quicker way through more direct manipulation.

Channeling stuff himself would him require magical education to manipulate magic flows, which I don’t see a ranger partake in. However it seems more likely for a druid to participate in such things, but it feels kind of “un-druidish” to force the nature in certain directions without asking the spirits in his enviroment beforehand to do so. Thats why I hoped the druid expands more on the enviromental spirit theme.

@dsslive
Ah, very good. I see the modern Ranger is more magic-oriented by utilizing Nature Magic. Although that would mean there are a ton of skills that don’t really reflect a Rangers wilderness experience and prowess, but rather his magical aptitude…something I wasn’t aware had even happened. But for the sake of the argument, I’ll play along.

So what does nature magic have to do with an Elementalist? If the druids of old were really only nature spirits specific to the world of Tyria, and the GW2 Druid specialization lets a ranger use glyphs and celestial powers, then aren’t modern druids not like old druids? Aren’t they a different thing altogether?

Like a mystic nature guardian or some such…

If I am not mistaken, ranger’s elite spec have more buffs than the others spec through F5. People always complain the pets and other AI on ranger. Instead of adding ranger abilities to deal more damages without pets, ANet address this problem by adding more skills and healing to ranger through the mechanic of transformation. If Celestial Avatar is not the appropriate name from the lore perspective, what would be the other choices to name it so that it fit ranger theme?

Obsidian.1328:

@dsslive
Ah, very good. I see the modern Ranger is more magic-oriented by utilizing Nature Magic. Although that would mean there are a ton of skills that don’t really reflect a Rangers wilderness experience and prowess, but rather his magical aptitude…something I wasn’t aware had even happened. But for the sake of the argument, I’ll play along.

So what does nature magic have to do with an Elementalist? If the druids of old were really only nature spirits specific to the world of Tyria, and the GW2 Druid specialization lets a ranger use glyphs and celestial powers, then aren’t modern druids not like old druids? Aren’t they a different thing altogether?

Like a mystic nature guardian or some such…

Some things can reflect both a rangers wilderness experience and prowess as well as magical capability. There is no either/or situation. The ranger uses both the magical aptitude (to a much lesser extent than our more wellversed casters) and his knowledge of the wild, that was even the case in gw1 where he did also have acces to a form of magic by calling for the aid of spirits. It’s like a thief who uses both his skills at distraction and trickery and his aptitude at magic (shadow magic) to do his job. One does not invalidate the other, but rather add to it.

The relation between nature magic and elementalists is that both pull their magic from nature as a whole, elementalist doing it so in a more pure form around the elements (the elements being part of nature).

The druid lore on its own is quite little, we know they attuned themselves to nature becoming one with it. So far that representation has been with plants, but nature is in theory a far broader concept than just plants, it contains wildlife, the elements, and even the stars, moon and the sun.
So while we didn’t have anything saying the more specific aspects of natures the old druids in gw1 worshipped (lack of a better word) it leaves open the possibility of it being more than just related to a single aspect, where the celestial aspect would come from. It’s not a contradiction to the druid lore, but it may be intended to be an addition to it. Showing that druids were in fact in tune with all of nature not just the plant aspect of it. Ofcourse this is all speculation , without official comfirmation we can only guess what the addition of celestial aspects to the druid specialization really means when it comes to the old druids.

Obsidian.1328:

@dsslive
Ah, very good. I see the modern Ranger is more magic-oriented by utilizing Nature Magic. Although that would mean there are a ton of skills that don’t really reflect a Rangers wilderness experience and prowess, but rather his magical aptitude…something I wasn’t aware had even happened. But for the sake of the argument, I’ll play along.

So what does nature magic have to do with an Elementalist? If the druids of old were really only nature spirits specific to the world of Tyria, and the GW2 Druid specialization lets a ranger use glyphs and celestial powers, then aren’t modern druids not like old druids? Aren’t they a different thing altogether?

Like a mystic nature guardian or some such…

Skills like lightning reflex and quickening zephyr are clearly magical in nature, but they are under survival. It is implied that the skills that bear the same name are an evolution of the same skill. And now for some reason the ranger can perform them without summoning the spirits corporeal form. After all norn can become the bear without actually bringing the spirit of bear out of the mists into their reality.

The GW1 ranger always had a certain element of ambiguity in just how the skills worked, with the exception of nature rituals of course. Take Kindle Arrows, for instance: Was this a matter of having the technical expertise to light an arrow, nock, and loose it safely, was it a case of invoking a fire spirit into the bow akin to ritualist spirit weapons, or was it actually the ranger using elemental magic directly a la Conjure Flame? There was nothing to indicate which, and the mechanics would be the same in any case. Arguably, the fire arrow skills moving to the warrior suggests the first, but on the other hand… we have been told, multiple times, that the warrior does have a certain instinctive ability to use magic, and the berserker is clearly taking that into an elementalist direction.

In Guild Wars 2… the ranger has a lot more effects that are clearly magical in nature. I don’t see how skills like Winter’s Bite or Lightning Reflexes could be simple fieldcraft (is the ranger carrying around mini-dewers of liquid nitrogen or high-voltage batteries? I think not). There is, however, a certain ambiguity remaining in most of the skills on whether the ranger is using elemental magic directly or invoking a spirit to perform it on their behalf.

From observation of the effects, though, it clearly is elemental magic that’s being used, whether it’s directly by the ranger or through the means of invoking a spirit. (It’s also worth noting here that elementalists have gained the ability to conjure elemental spirits, although elementalists grant those spirits a physical form composed of the element while ranger spirit summons remain ethereal and supportive in nature.) However, neither interpretation actually makes the druid inconsistent. If the ranger is using elemental magic directly, then the elementalist precedent is valid. If the ranger’s magic is all based on conjuring spirits… well, the cosmic avatar form is simply a matter of conjuring the spirit into their own body, and if you’re making the argument that the ranger’s power is all derived from spirits, then the only limit on what form of powers the ranger can invoke becomes the range of spirits with which the ranger can commune.

With all this in mind, though, I do admit that I find it curious that they did go with such a focus on celestial light. Calling down healing light feels more like it should be in the guardian aesthetic rather than the ranger, and many of the skills used by the druid would probably have worked just as well with an aesthetic based more on water and plants. However, ArenaNet have stated an intent to explain the lore of the professions more going forward, so perhaps we’ll learn why the druid is what it is.

dsslive.8473:

The druid lore on its own is quite little, we know they attuned themselves to nature becoming one with it. So far that representation has been with plants, but nature is in theory a far broader concept than just plants, it contains wildlife, the elements, and even the stars, moon and the sun.
So while we didn’t have anything saying the more specific aspects of natures the old druids in gw1 worshipped (lack of a better word) it leaves open the possibility of it being more than just related to a single aspect, where the celestial aspect would come from. It’s not a contradiction to the druid lore, but it may be intended to be an addition to it. Showing that druids were in fact in tune with all of nature not just the plant aspect of it. Ofcourse this is all speculation , without official comfirmation we can only guess what the addition of celestial aspects to the druid specialization really means when it comes to the old druids.

The lore is quite scant, true. I guess what I’m getting at is that we actually got to see and interact with druids in GW1 and that based on that they hardly fit with what the GW2 druid is all about. They were more harmless but wizened sages, not celestial battle shamans. The Warden would have been a better pick for a Ranger specialization…the only problem was they were only found in Cantha.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Obsidian.1328:

@dsslive
Ah, very good. I see the modern Ranger is more magic-oriented by utilizing Nature Magic. Although that would mean there are a ton of skills that don’t really reflect a Rangers wilderness experience and prowess, but rather his magical aptitude…something I wasn’t aware had even happened. But for the sake of the argument, I’ll play along.

So what does nature magic have to do with an Elementalist? If the druids of old were really only nature spirits specific to the world of Tyria, and the GW2 Druid specialization lets a ranger use glyphs and celestial powers, then aren’t modern druids not like old druids? Aren’t they a different thing altogether?

Like a mystic nature guardian or some such…

Skills like lightning reflex and quickening zephyr are clearly magical in nature, but they are under survival. It is implied that the skills that bear the same name are an evolution of the same skill. And now for some reason the ranger can perform them without summoning the spirits corporeal form. After all norn can become the bear without actually bringing the spirit of bear out of the mists into their reality.

Yeah, Lightning Reflexes used to be a block, not an evade. And increased your attack speed. And didn’t cause any “lightning” damage. It’s a different skill entirely.

The same goes for Quickening Zephyr, ranger spirits act a lot differently now.

Obsidian.1328:

dsslive.8473:

The druid lore on its own is quite little, we know they attuned themselves to nature becoming one with it. So far that representation has been with plants, but nature is in theory a far broader concept than just plants, it contains wildlife, the elements, and even the stars, moon and the sun.
So while we didn’t have anything saying the more specific aspects of natures the old druids in gw1 worshipped (lack of a better word) it leaves open the possibility of it being more than just related to a single aspect, where the celestial aspect would come from. It’s not a contradiction to the druid lore, but it may be intended to be an addition to it. Showing that druids were in fact in tune with all of nature not just the plant aspect of it. Ofcourse this is all speculation , without official comfirmation we can only guess what the addition of celestial aspects to the druid specialization really means when it comes to the old druids.

The lore is quite scant, true. I guess what I’m getting at is that we actually got to see and interact with druids in GW1 and that based on that they hardly fit with what the GW2 druid is all about. They were more harmless but wizened sages, not celestial battle shamans. The Warden would have been a better pick for a Ranger specialization…the only problem was they were only found in Cantha.

Well you are most certainly correct that the druids in gw1 didn’t show any signs of being able to tap into the celestial aspect of nature, i’m really hoping for a little lore behind it (which i do believe they plan on doing) to see how the celestial part comes into the entire druid concept which could lead to more information about the old druids.

draxynnic.3719:

The GW1 ranger always had a certain element of ambiguity in just how the skills worked, with the exception of nature rituals of course. Take Kindle Arrows, for instance: Was this a matter of having the technical expertise to light an arrow, nock, and loose it safely, was it a case of invoking a fire spirit into the bow akin to ritualist spirit weapons, or was it actually the ranger using elemental magic directly a la Conjure Flame? There was nothing to indicate which, and the mechanics would be the same in any case. Arguably, the fire arrow skills moving to the warrior suggests the first, but on the other hand… we have been told, multiple times, that the warrior does have a certain instinctive ability to use magic, and the berserker is clearly taking that into an elementalist direction.

You can tell based on the animation that it wasn’t an invocation, the ranger kneels down on the ground, with hand movements simulating some sort of preparation. Preparations in GW1 were not magic spells, and Rangers were not casters. The fiery ring that appears around the ranger after the prep is activated is a visual combat cue, not a spell cue. Remember, almost every skill, just like in GW2, has some sort of visual cue associated with it for PvP purposes, whether it’s a spell or not.

By contrast, an Elementalist goes through all sorts of hand-waiving to the heavens when casting a spell.

Obsidian.1328:

draxynnic.3719:

The GW1 ranger always had a certain element of ambiguity in just how the skills worked, with the exception of nature rituals of course. Take Kindle Arrows, for instance: Was this a matter of having the technical expertise to light an arrow, nock, and loose it safely, was it a case of invoking a fire spirit into the bow akin to ritualist spirit weapons, or was it actually the ranger using elemental magic directly a la Conjure Flame? There was nothing to indicate which, and the mechanics would be the same in any case. Arguably, the fire arrow skills moving to the warrior suggests the first, but on the other hand… we have been told, multiple times, that the warrior does have a certain instinctive ability to use magic, and the berserker is clearly taking that into an elementalist direction.

You can tell based on the animation that it wasn’t an invocation, the ranger kneels down on the ground, with hand movements simulating some sort of preparation. Preparations in GW1 were not magic spells, and Rangers were not casters. The fiery ring that appears around the ranger after the prep is activated is a visual combat cue, not a spell cue. Remember, almost every skill, just like in GW2, has some sort of visual cue associated with it for PvP purposes, whether it’s a spell or not.

By contrast, an Elementalist goes through all sorts of hand-waiving to the heavens when casting a spell.

I point to the fact that the ritualists resembled magic even before magic was given. It was with the gift by the gods that they truly began using magic and their skills morphed into what they are now. One could say the exact same with the ranger, in gw1 they were able to spawn spirits without using magic. But now come gw2 they can use nature magic. As the ambient level of magic goes up so do they become elevated to spellcaster rank. The fact it was comparatively slower than ritualists is because Rangers don’t bind spirits but rely on being in tune with them. That would mean the Druid is the pinnacle of being in tune with spirits and at this point they can truly have been said to reach spellcaster rank.

Magic existed in the world before 1 BE. As we’ve learned time and time again from GW2. There was even an interview pre-GW2’s release which stated that the asura had magic before then, and during Abaddon’s ‘gift of magic’ they felt the world’s magic increase then decrease just as suddenly, never knowing why it happened.

Ritualists having magic before the gift of magic is not weird, since not all magic was in the Bloodstone – some was leaking out of the Elder Dragons.

Nothing says the rangers didn’t use magic in GW1, either. All that’s said about rangers and magic is that in the past 250 years they went more towards magic.

In all honesty, Daniel Handler, I think you’re making an elephant out of a mouse.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Magic existed in the world before 1 BE. As we’ve learned time and time again from GW2. There was even an interview pre-GW2’s release which stated that the asura had magic before then, and during Abaddon’s ‘gift of magic’ they felt the world’s magic increase then decrease just as suddenly, never knowing why it happened.

Ritualists having magic before the gift of magic is not weird, since not all magic was in the Bloodstone – some was leaking out of the Elder Dragons.

Nothing says the rangers didn’t use magic in GW1, either. All that’s said about rangers and magic is that in the past 250 years they went more towards magic.

In all honesty, Daniel Handler, I think you’re making an elephant out of a mouse.

It wasn’t a theory. It was a statement. Magic existed in the world before the gift but ritualists did not use it. They were only able to practice it with the use of spirits. After the gift they became true spellcasters. If you have a source that claims otherwise I would like to see it.

What said they didn’t use magic was the game. Rangers couldn’t cast any spells nor are they listed as a caster profession.

Why you are bringing asuras up I don’t know, as one I never said there was no magic in the world, I implied humans could not perform until the gift. And two the only reason asura had such magical ability is that they lived next to a sleeping primordius. Rangers were humans so Asuras have no bearing on their magical abilities

Obsidian.1328:

The lore is quite scant, true. I guess what I’m getting at is that we actually got to see and interact with druids in GW1 and that based on that they hardly fit with what the GW2 druid is all about. They were more harmless but wizened sages, not celestial battle shamans. The Warden would have been a better pick for a Ranger specialization…the only problem was they were only found in Cantha.

To be fair, the Guild Wars 2 PC is entirely combat focused no matter what NPCs of the same profession lean to. NPC mesmers don’t produce constant clones and teleport around to fight the way a PC mesmer does because the PC specializes in war magic. Same for elementalist NPCs not cycling through the elements spamming attacks of different elemental aspects.

So it makes sense that the PC, upon learning the powers of the ancient druids, would take a more combat oriented approach to it than the largely pacifist Maguuma Druids did.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Magic existed in the world before the gift but ritualists did not use it. They were only able to practice it with the use of spirits. After the gift they became true spellcasters. If you have a source that claims otherwise I would like to see it.

Your source is from Factions, from an in-universe perspective that claims the Margonites to be Luxons.

It’s already made fallible on a few points, due to remove or unknown history to humans. Magic existing in the world prior to 1 BE was part of that removed or unknown history and thus it is subject to suspicion.

We have proof that magic existed in the world. But no further statements on the state of ritualists in the world pre-1 BE. So it can go either way. Therefore, it is a theory. A theory based off of a potentially-fallible statement that itself relied upon false information.

Daniel Handler.4816:

What said they didn’t use magic was the game. Rangers couldn’t cast any spells nor are they listed as a caster profession.

GW1’s classifications of “caster professions” was literally “60 AR armored professions” – assassins and dervishes used magic but were not classified as “caster professions” because they had 70 AR.

Rangers did cast at least one kind of spell: nature rituals. It requires magic to summon spirits from another plane of existence.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Why you are bringing asuras up I don’t know, as one I never said there was no magic in the world, I implied humans could not perform until the gift.

I brought it up because of that implication.

My point being that you cannot trust GW1 sources when it comes to the origin of magic, because they all state that the origin of magic was 1 BE – yes, including the history of the ritualist.

It’s a piece of lore tossed from the known to the unknown due to the base of the information being proven false.

Daniel Handler.4816:

And two the only reason asura had such magical ability is that they lived next to a sleeping primordius. Rangers were humans so Asuras have no bearing on their magical abilities

There were asura rangers too, no doubt. Also, not all asura lived near Primordus – the Central Transfer Chamber was one of six grand cathedral-cities that existed underground. And that doesn’t even include the non-city settlements.

Obsidian.1328:

draxynnic.3719:

The GW1 ranger always had a certain element of ambiguity in just how the skills worked, with the exception of nature rituals of course. Take Kindle Arrows, for instance: Was this a matter of having the technical expertise to light an arrow, nock, and loose it safely, was it a case of invoking a fire spirit into the bow akin to ritualist spirit weapons, or was it actually the ranger using elemental magic directly a la Conjure Flame? There was nothing to indicate which, and the mechanics would be the same in any case. Arguably, the fire arrow skills moving to the warrior suggests the first, but on the other hand… we have been told, multiple times, that the warrior does have a certain instinctive ability to use magic, and the berserker is clearly taking that into an elementalist direction.

You can tell based on the animation that it wasn’t an invocation, the ranger kneels down on the ground, with hand movements simulating some sort of preparation. Preparations in GW1 were not magic spells, and Rangers were not casters. The fiery ring that appears around the ranger after the prep is activated is a visual combat cue, not a spell cue. Remember, almost every skill, just like in GW2, has some sort of visual cue associated with it for PvP purposes, whether it’s a spell or not.

By contrast, an Elementalist goes through all sorts of hand-waiving to the heavens when casting a spell.

Part of the ambiguity. Those vague hand movements near the bow could be wrapping the arrows with oilcloth and lighting them with flint and tinder, or they could be casting magic into the bow. In the latter case, obviously the hand movements are going to be close to the bow – which is where the magic is being channeled – while the elementalist hand-waving is to the heavens or to a target because that’s where they are channeling power to.

Obviously, casting magic into a weapon that you’re holding is likely to involve very different gestures than summoning a meteor bombardment from the sky!

Granted, preparations don’t count as ‘spells’ for game mechanical purposes, but there were plenty of things in GW1 that didn’t count as spells but were clearly magical in nature. It’s also worth noting that if I recall correctly, in the original design preparations had the ‘easily interrupted’ property, but this was removed for balance reasons.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Magic existed in the world before the gift but ritualists did not use it. They were only able to practice it with the use of spirits. After the gift they became true spellcasters. If you have a source that claims otherwise I would like to see it.

Your source is from Factions, from an in-universe perspective that claims the Margonites to be Luxons.

It’s already made fallible on a few points, due to remove or unknown history to humans. Magic existing in the world prior to 1 BE was part of that removed or unknown history and thus it is subject to suspicion.

We have proof that magic existed in the world. But no further statements on the state of ritualists in the world pre-1 BE. So it can go either way. Therefore, it is a theory. A theory based off of a potentially-fallible statement that itself relied upon false information.

Daniel Handler.4816:

What said they didn’t use magic was the game. Rangers couldn’t cast any spells nor are they listed as a caster profession.

GW1’s classifications of “caster professions” was literally “60 AR armored professions” – assassins and dervishes used magic but were not classified as “caster professions” because they had 70 AR.

Rangers did cast at least one kind of spell: nature rituals. It requires magic to summon spirits from another plane of existence.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Why you are bringing asuras up I don’t know, as one I never said there was no magic in the world, I implied humans could not perform until the gift.

I brought it up because of that implication.

My point being that you cannot trust GW1 sources when it comes to the origin of magic, because they all state that the origin of magic was 1 BE – yes, including the history of the ritualist.

It’s a piece of lore tossed from the known to the unknown due to the base of the information being proven false.

Daniel Handler.4816:

And two the only reason asura had such magical ability is that they lived next to a sleeping primordius. Rangers were humans so Asuras have no bearing on their magical abilities

There were asura rangers too, no doubt. Also, not all asura lived near Primordus – the Central Transfer Chamber was one of six grand cathedral-cities that existed underground. And that doesn’t even include the non-city settlements.

I would like you to produce what source you are using to declare fallibility as they are portrayed as historical records. The asura did not have magic in any more sense than the ritualists did. They used magical energies, most likely that taken from primordius. Your definition of magic would then imply that engineers are a magical profession.

The game itself defined what spells were and said that nature rituals were not spells. Don’t hide behind the concept of AR, that merely defined whether one was a hybrid or pure caster.

Also give me the source that there were asuran Rangers no doubt. Especially because none of the animals we can tame in gw1 are subterranean. The subterranean creature we can tame are devourers and they live nowhere near where the asura originated.

The only source in existence that states the ritualists had a form of magic pre-Exodus.

It’s from the Guild Wars Factions Prima guide, written from the perspective of Loremaster Ermenrend of Ascalon, who was later on added into the game as an NPC in Lion’s Arch.

That said, I would like you to present any source which states “The asura did not have magic in any more sense than the ritualists did. They used magical energies, most likely that taken from primordius.”

“Your definition of magic would then imply that engineers are a magical profession.”

No, it does not. Engineers use technology. Magic is not technology, but as asura and the Pact show they can be mixed. Nowhere did I ever state that magic and technology are similar, nor have I ever stated that you can use magic without spells.

“The game itself defined what spells were and said that nature rituals were not spells.”

This is the classic case of mechanics versus lore. While many times they go hand-in-hand per ArenaNet’s intent, this is not always true – e.g., resurrection in GW1. This is one such case, where not all magic was defined as “spells”. Example: Most, but not all, Forms were magical spells. The various rituals were similar.

Think of it this way: could you pull a soul from the afterlife without magic? Speaker of the Dead says no. A Good Deed. says no. Ergo, binding rituals had to be some form of magic. Ergo, nature rituals – which are the same concept but different subject, summoning a spirit of nature rather than a spirit of mortals – must be some form of magic.

To say “all magic in GW1 were called spells” is downright false.

“Don’t hide behind the concept of AR, that merely defined whether one was a hybrid or pure caster.”

I’m not hiding behind anything. It’s a given fact that in GW1 the “spellcaster” professions were given light armor – just like it’s a given fact that in GW2 the “scholar” professions are given light armor. It’s the same thing. “Spellcaster” is to GW1 as “scholar” is to GW2.

“Also give me the source that there were asuran Rangers no doubt. Especially because none of the animals we can tame in gw1 are subterranean. The subterranean creature we can tame are devourers and they live nowhere near where the asura originated.”

We see asuran rangers in GW1 – here’s an obvious example – and they had not had enough time to get accustomed to human culture yet. We see rangers amongst many races that weren’t humans. Rangers were NOT a human-centric profession like dervishes were (all non-human dervishes were animals that had scythe-like claws).

As for charming subterranean creatures. Again, this is a case of mechanics versus lore – something you seem to continuously blur the line between – after all we see NPCs charming animals in GW1 that players could not. For example, Peacekeepers charming drakes.

However, you are wrong to say there were no subterranean tamable pets in GW1. As there were two. This is even false in GW2, where we have Murrellows which came from the Depths (forced out by Primordus and destroyers along with the skritt and asura).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The only source in existence that states the ritualists had a form of magic pre-Exodus.

It’s from the Guild Wars Factions Prima guide, written from the perspective of Loremaster Ermenrend of Ascalon, who was later on added into the game as an NPC in Lion’s Arch.

That said, I would like you to present any source which states “The asura did not have magic in any more sense than the ritualists did. They used magical energies, most likely that taken from primordius.”

“Your definition of magic would then imply that engineers are a magical profession.”

No, it does not. Engineers use technology. Magic is not technology, but as asura and the Pact show they can be mixed. Nowhere did I ever state that magic and technology are similar, nor have I ever stated that you can use magic without spells.

“The game itself defined what spells were and said that nature rituals were not spells.”

This is the classic case of mechanics versus lore. While many times they go hand-in-hand per ArenaNet’s intent, this is not always true – e.g., resurrection in GW1. This is one such case, where not all magic was defined as “spells”. Example: Most, but not all, Forms were magical spells. The various rituals were similar.

Think of it this way: could you pull a soul from the afterlife without magic? Speaker of the Dead says no. A Good Deed. says no. Ergo, binding rituals had to be some form of magic. Ergo, nature rituals – which are the same concept but different subject, summoning a spirit of nature rather than a spirit of mortals – must be some form of magic.

To say “all magic in GW1 were called spells” is downright false.

“Don’t hide behind the concept of AR, that merely defined whether one was a hybrid or pure caster.”

I’m not hiding behind anything. It’s a given fact that in GW1 the “spellcaster” professions were given light armor – just like it’s a given fact that in GW2 the “scholar” professions are given light armor. It’s the same thing. “Spellcaster” is to GW1 as “scholar” is to GW2.

“Also give me the source that there were asuran Rangers no doubt. Especially because none of the animals we can tame in gw1 are subterranean. The subterranean creature we can tame are devourers and they live nowhere near where the asura originated.”

We see asuran rangers in GW1 – here’s an obvious example – and they had not had enough time to get accustomed to human culture yet. We see rangers amongst many races that weren’t humans. Rangers were NOT a human-centric profession like dervishes were (all non-human dervishes were animals that had scythe-like claws).

As for charming subterranean creatures. Again, this is a case of mechanics versus lore – something you seem to continuously blur the line between – after all we see NPCs charming animals in GW1 that players could not. For example, Peacekeepers charming drakes.

However, you are wrong to say there were no subterranean tamable pets in GW1. As there were two. This is even false in GW2, where we have Murrellows which came from the Depths (forced out by Primordus and destroyers along with the skritt and asura).

“This text is not a work of fiction, but is based on historical fact as interpreted by the author. Historical facts have been revised based upon new information acquired by the author between 1022 AE and 1072 AE.” You will need to show me why this statement is inaccurate.

You are right on the pets, I apologise I did not think to check eye of the north’s database on pets. However for asura.
If they had not had time to get developed to human culture, why do they use the same rangers skills as humans? How is it possible that two races in absolute isolation would practice the exact same way. The ability to give racial skills was already in the game, yet absent for these Asura. It really is quite a quandary, but given their staggering intelligence you don’t know for certain what type of magic the asura practice under the ground.

Literally the only thing that we know magically going on underground would be what you would call magical technology.

You do hide behind the concept of AR. The concept of full caster versus hybrid was not only based on AR but also on whether or not they used spells. Classes that had zero spells were said to be non magical in nature. The whole idea of which profession types can use magic and which not still exists as the scepter limit for the true caster. And now in gw2 the testament to magical ability seems to be the staff.

The way they seem to be expressing spell is whether you perform the magic yourself, or you merely act as a conduit for other energies to perform it for you. And as for resurrection, as they showed that it could be performed without using magic yourself, it is moot as to whether it is magic or not.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The whole idea of which profession types can use magic and which not still exists as the scepter limit for the true caster. And now in gw2 the testament to magical ability seems to be the staff.

I’m sure thieves everywhere are overjoyed now that their magical abilities are finally recognized because they have gained the ability to whack people with a long stick!

Daniel Handler.4816:

If they had not had time to get developed to human culture, why do they use the same rangers skills as humans?

I think this is obviously only mechanics and not lore. I mean, my thief doesn’t really pounce at the enemy from 10 meters away five times in a row.

Daniel Handler.4816:

“This text is not a work of fiction, but is based on historical fact as interpreted by the author. Historical facts have been revised based upon new information acquired by the author between 1022 AE and 1072 AE.” You will need to show me why this statement is inaccurate.

Check that publication date again.

1072 AE.

Prior to Nightfall.

In a period where, thanks to divine historical whitewashing, most humans didn’t know that someone called Abaddon had even existed, let alone the role that he played in the history of magic… and those that did know were keeping it a secret. Any human document prior to 1075AE that does not directly mention Abaddon is suspect regarding any aspect of magic’s history prior to the Exodus for this reason.

The truth is that there certainly was some magic around before “the gift of magic” – but it was quite a bit weaker than it was in GW1, let alone GW2 (magic is more powerful now, even with the rise of the dragons). However, it is worth noting that a lot of the magic that seems to predate the “gift” seems to be based around making the most of the limited amount of ambient magic that was around at the time. Ritualist magic, for instance, is focused on drawing energy out of the Mists, which is likely less subject to the fluctuations of magic on Tyria, but opening that conduit to the Mists in the first place is certainly not a mundane procedure. It wouldn’t surprise me if this was also a driving factor behind asura technomagic – the focus on efficient means of collecting, storing, and distributing magical power in asuran magitech could well date back to a time when there was a lot of storing and collecting that needed to be done to get enough magical energy to achieve anything of note.

Either way, the question has been asked in interview, and there certainly was some magic around in Tyria before the gods fiddled with the original seerstone: but substantially weaker than the present.

The way they seem to be expressing spell is whether you perform the magic yourself, or you merely act as a conduit for other energies to perform it for you. And as for resurrection, as they showed that it could be performed without using magic yourself, it is moot as to whether it is magic or not.

Judging by this logic, sucking someone’s lifeforce out of them by touch is acting “as a conduit for other energies to perform it for you”. And that’s just the example that immediately comes to mind thanks to touch rangers. There were a lot of skills in GW1 that were not classed as ‘spells’ but which were clearly and unambiguously magical in nature and performed by the spellcaster.

“Spell” was simply a mechanical label that influenced how a skill operated with other skill effects and attributes. As it happens, all spells are magic… but the reverse is emphatically not true.

Daniel Handler.4816:

One could say the exact same with the ranger, in gw1 they were able to spawn spirits without using magic. But now come gw2 they can use nature magic. As the ambient level of magic goes up so do they become elevated to spellcaster rank. The fact it was comparatively slower than ritualists is because Rangers don’t bind spirits but rely on being in tune with them. That would mean the Druid is the pinnacle of being in tune with spirits and at this point they can truly have been said to reach spellcaster rank.

Eh…I always thought a GW1 ranger summoning spirits was magical in nature. Is that not true?

Ehecatl.9172:

Obsidian.1328:

The lore is quite scant, true. I guess what I’m getting at is that we actually got to see and interact with druids in GW1 and that based on that they hardly fit with what the GW2 druid is all about. They were more harmless but wizened sages, not celestial battle shamans. The Warden would have been a better pick for a Ranger specialization…the only problem was they were only found in Cantha.

To be fair, the Guild Wars 2 PC is entirely combat focused no matter what NPCs of the same profession lean to. NPC mesmers don’t produce constant clones and teleport around to fight the way a PC mesmer does because the PC specializes in war magic. Same for elementalist NPCs not cycling through the elements spamming attacks of different elemental aspects.

So it makes sense that the PC, upon learning the powers of the ancient druids, would take a more combat oriented approach to it than the largely pacifist Maguuma Druids did.

That’s not true for GW1 though, NPC’s used exactly the same skills PC’s did. The Maguuma Druids you see in GW1 were actually some of the few NPC exceptions that didn’t use combat skills like the PC did. Whoever at ANet created them simply chose not to give them a skill bar. I realize that in GW2 this isn’t the case. But the comparison is to a GW1 example.

draxynnic.3719:

Part of the ambiguity. Those vague hand movements near the bow could be wrapping the arrows with oilcloth and lighting them with flint and tinder, or they could be casting magic into the bow. In the latter case, obviously the hand movements are going to be close to the bow – which is where the magic is being channeled – while the elementalist hand-waving is to the heavens or to a target because that’s where they are channeling power to.

Obviously, casting magic into a weapon that you’re holding is likely to involve very different gestures than summoning a meteor bombardment from the sky!

Granted, preparations don’t count as ‘spells’ for game mechanical purposes, but there were plenty of things in GW1 that didn’t count as spells but were clearly magical in nature. It’s also worth noting that if I recall correctly, in the original design preparations had the ‘easily interrupted’ property, but this was removed for balance reasons

I agree, but I would say there were also plenty of things in GW1 that didn’t count as spells but were clearly non-magical in nature. Here’s an excerpt of Aidan using the preparation Apply Poison in a lore doc:

“Several hundred yards up the path, Aidan grabbed Devona by the shoulder and stopped her, placing a finger to his lips. “Shhh.” With a nod and a flick of his eyes, he indicated the hanging rocks overhead.
Devona craned her neck, listening. She could just make out a slight sound…a scraping, like someone dragging something.
She looked at Aidan. “Charr?” she whispered.
Aidan shook his head. “Devourers.” The Ranger dropped to his knee and laid a pile of arrows out on the ground. Pulling a small vial from a pouch at his belt, he poured a few drops of a viscous green liquid on their tips, then he nocked one to his bow and, returning the others to his quiver, headed up the path.
The others fell into step behind him. Cresting the rise, Devona could see the double stinger tail, hooked claws, and thick carapace of a Plague Devourer.
“Only one,” said Cynn. “Walk in the park.”
Aidan sighted down the shaft of his poisoned arrow and let it fly. It struck the creature, puncturing its chitinous hide with a crunching pop. Though it was on target, the arrow didn’t kill the beast, and it turned toward the group, its tails waving in the air.
Devona raised her sword over her head and charged in. As she came, the ground around the Plague Devourer began to shift and move. Small rocks tumbled away, and a pair of Carrion Devourers emerged from the baked earth.
“That’s more like it,” shouted Cynn.
That brought a smile to Devona’s lips, and she gripped her sword tighter, advancing on the newly arrived vermin and swinging her blade downward onto one creature’s head. The Carrion Devourer staggered backward under the blow.
The Plague Devourer’s tails stopped waving, and it pointed them at the Warrior, casting something on her just before it fell dead from Aidan’s poisoned arrow.
Devona’s knees grew weak, and her legs struggled to keep her upright. Her sword grew heavy in her hands, and as she swung at the creature again, her Rin Blade rebounded off the creature’s shell, hardly making a dent. The Plague Devourer’s hex had sapped her strength.”

It’s obvious from the underlined part that the prep was a non-magical skill. Just like it’s obvious the Devourer’s hex was magical. If you read some of those passages, you get a good idea of what is and isn’t magic.

It’s also important to note that simply using energy, like in the blue energy bar, didn’t equate to using magic. It wasn’t mana, it was an action resource pool. I don’t know if that matters, but I think some may have seen that blue bar and immediately thought “magic pool” or something. :P

draxynnic.3719:

Daniel Handler.4816:

“This text is not a work of fiction, but is based on historical fact as interpreted by the author. Historical facts have been revised based upon new information acquired by the author between 1022 AE and 1072 AE.” You will need to show me why this statement is inaccurate.

Check that publication date again.

1072 AE.

Prior to Nightfall.

In a period where, thanks to divine historical whitewashing, most humans didn’t know that someone called Abaddon had even existed, let alone the role that he played in the history of magic… and those that did know were keeping it a secret. Any human document prior to 1075AE that does not directly mention Abaddon is suspect regarding any aspect of magic’s history prior to the Exodus for this reason.

drax don’t be silly. You and I both know that Abaddon was retroactively inserted into Proph and Factions by Nightfall writers. He didn’t even exist until then. They got his name from that last mission in Proph, they could just as easily have called him “Komalie” and nothing would be changed. I thought I knew you better than that. :-(

Obsidian.1328:

Daniel Handler.4816:

One could say the exact same with the ranger, in gw1 they were able to spawn spirits without using magic. But now come gw2 they can use nature magic. As the ambient level of magic goes up so do they become elevated to spellcaster rank. The fact it was comparatively slower than ritualists is because Rangers don’t bind spirits but rely on being in tune with them. That would mean the Druid is the pinnacle of being in tune with spirits and at this point they can truly have been said to reach spellcaster rank.

Eh…I always thought a GW1 ranger summoning spirits was magical in nature. Is that not true?

The implications I am seeing is that in gw1 spirit summoning was as non magical as the ritualists before the gift of magic. Now after the gift the game refers to what they are doing as true magic, as you can see in the attributes if channeling magic and restoration magic. There are still skills that fell are under simple communing and whether they are true or pseudo magic can go either way, because as we can see in gw2 communing can even be performed by warriors.

Come gw2 the Rangers now have a trait line called nature magic and I assume this means they have raised their communing or whatever to the level that channeling magic was raised. They seem to be able to invoke the power of a spirit without making it corporeal, just as ritualist could in gw2 under some channeling magic.