Guild Wars 2

Ehecatl.9172:

“Darkness and light, good and evil…all are a part of nature. There is no regrowth without death…without decay. Such is the lesson that I can teach you, stripling.”

Quote from a druid in GW1.

They viewed death, decay, and evil as all facets of nature. Using their magic to mimic the death of a star is well in line with their belief structure that destruction is a necessary part of life.

It really does feel like you’re just fishing for reasons that the new elite spec breaks lore.

Edit: Actually I just remembered what quest that NPC was from. He asks you to go out and bring him the heart of a centaur warlord and bring it back so he can use divination for you. Pretty dark.

Ultimate cop out. If something is part of nature that does not mean a druid will actively engage in it. Fire is part of nature, you use no fire in this spec. All the fields except for ethereal are arguably part of nature. From your quote the druid could be using necromancy because it is part of nature.

And the druids were not all about destruction. As they said

“Tread lightly. The damage you do today compounds with time.”

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ultimate cop out. If something is part of nature that does not mean a druid will actively engage in it. Fire is part of nature, you use no fire in this spec. All the fields except for ethereal are arguably part of nature. From your quote the druid could be using necromancy because it is part of nature.

And the druids were not all about destruction. As they said

“Tread lightly. The damage you do today compounds with time.”

“I sense no fear in your heart. That is good, for there is no reason to fear me. I am but an aspect of nature, just as decay and death are part of the natural cycle. I already know the question you wish to ask, and yes, I can consult certain…powers to obtain and answer, though it may not be to your liking. The powers I would consult require sacrifices. If you wish me to consult with them, you must seek out the mighty Centaur lord called Drogo Greatmane. Bring me this centaur’s heart, and you shall have the answers you seek.”
~ Dark Oak

He literally sends you to murder a centaur, rip out it’s heart, and bring it to him so he can use it as a sacrifice to see into the future. This is one of two rituals we see the druids do. The other was a spiritual cleansing ritual involving water.

So again. Sacrifice and death are just as prevalent in GW1 druid lore as renewal and growth. A druid’s spell done in GW1 requires death to be performed.

There is zero reason to think mimicking the destruction of a star is against their way of doing things when they were willing to kill a living, breathing, sapient being in order to see into the future.

Magic in GW can be casted by kids by accident (see Marjory) without having any former contact with it, so in this universe it isn’t something too special. Yes, the ranger don’t channel the elements himself by calling upon the spirits, but this doesn’t have to imply, that there is no magic at all involved from his side to build the connection. He doesn’t even have to know that he just used magic by himself at this moment, he just did it.
You need magical education if you want to be a caster, which has full control over the magic he channels, and don’t hurt yourself or others by exploring your magic gift on your own, but its entirely possible in this universe that every class utilizes magic in some way or another, aware of it or not.

For the black hole and sacrifice thing. Yeah, nature is a cruel place, I don’t think spirits have too high moral standards. Druids aren’t flower petters, not in RL, not in Warcraft, not here. Things have to die, so something can grow from its ashes. If it fulfills a greater purpose and the positive benefit for overall nature outweights the sacrifice, its possible.
For the black hole you would have to ask, does anything suffer from the death of the star? Most stars don’t have planets, and most planets have no life, so.. The other question is does the druid sacrifice the star himself or just take advantage of a star dying somewhere by channeling some of the energy to Tyria? Natural convergence indicates the druid brings the realm of a dying star and his realm closer together by bending timespace.. or something along those lines, I don’t know.
But most importantly for me, how would have a mortal/spirit from the jungles the power to do ANY of these things? That sounds like something a god could do, but doesn’t sound right for druids. Maybe for a very powerful mesmer – a profession where I can see astral magic have a better place in general than the druid. Sadly this will not happen anymore :/

Btw Daniel? Please don’t quote the whole wall of text every time you respond to someone, just the part you’re referring to at the moment. You can delete stuff from the quote. Makes the post unnecessary bloated ^^

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t jump out of my seat when I see the word earth. After all
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthshaker
Again the only surprising one is the one that say summon.

You’re contradicting yourself

Daniel Handler.4816:

I will not accept names of skills as the game can be translated. Therefore one must look at them one by one.

and the one i mentioned was in the skill DESCRIPTION. PLUS the animation matches it.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t say rituals are magic because there is nothing that says they have to be. No indication has been given the that the ranger is the caster. All that has been implied is that he is calling forth another supernatural entity to do it for him.

How is “calling forth another supernatural entity” not magic?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Your right I shouldn’t compare any of the bond skills to each other so lets take them as they are.

A magical redirecting of damage called forth by a shout that can have no non magical equivalence.
Because shouts that deal with damage movement must be magical.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22

Actually the paragon bond skill you mentioned did not even slightly have to do with the magical redirection of damage. Instead “Elite Skill. (10 seconds.) The next time an ally within earshot would take fatal damage, that damage is negated and that ally is healed for 20…164…200. Ends on other allies.”

No magical redirection on the paragon skill. As for the protect me skill you’ve mentioned, IT’S ON THE FRIGGON RANGER. someone who is very capable of using magic. Guardians, reapers and tempests all have access to shouts that create magical effects. So it’s entirely impossible for the ranger to do the same?

Daniel Handler.4816:

I need to find the line where they mentioned that berserkers also did untapped human potential.

edit:
“The torch is the berserker’s weapon of choice, and it embodies the powerful flames of war. While the guardian uses magical flames for protection and purging, berserkers use the torch as a reckless weapon of destruction, slamming it into the ground and even lighting themselves ablaze to become mobile fire fields.”

“The berserker’s utility skills are a new type of skill known as rage skills. This skill type is similar to the warrior’s physical skill type in that they involve feats of strength but have the added bonus of granting bonus adrenaline when used.”

“Berserkers are warriors that have tapped into a primal bloodlust to unleash their rage in the form of powerful new burst skills.”

none of that truly declares that the berserker doesn’t use magic, but it seems like the intent for the torch atleast doesn’t use magic, so touche. Much less so for the rage skills however.

I don’t see how setting yourself ablaze without taking any damage or slamming a torch into the ground and creating a shockwave of fire that breaks the ground open couldn’t be magic.

Plus:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-berserker-on-points-of-interest-a-summary/

“Reapers use ice-based attacks to inflict deathly chill on their enemies, while berserkers channel their fiery rage.”

The Berserker is clearly using magic.

@castle

I wasn’t referring to the paragon. I was comparing the “magic” of symbiotic bond that you mentioned to that of protect me. Both of which could simply be referring to the ranger or the pet physically protecting the other.

Rituals don’t have to be magic because praying to the gods is not described as magic in all occurrences.

If you don’t want to use the names. Use the fact that tremor the mace skill says you hit the earth and generate shockwaves. The act of lighting yourself on fire and not taking damage is not surprising given the berserker stance means that you don’t receive conditions while in that stance.

@agro read the paragraph above

@ehecatl. They said to tread lightly. He wasn’t constantly telling you kill things. A singular case vs constant mimicing or causing death.

@amra the implication seems to be that a druid/ranger can do anything as there is a spirit for every type of occurrence in magic. And the ritualist were able to gain access to multiple schools through channeling magic.

You do receive conditions, it just cleanses two off of you once you activate it. Also, that’s Flames of War, not the Zerker stance. We’re getting too deep into mere mechanics here, imho – but any way you put it, the Berserker clearly involves several magical side effects/enhancements to their attacks. You shoot frikkin fireballs while going Berserk with a sword. That’s more than just physical feats.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@castle

I wasn’t referring to the paragon. I was comparing the “magic” of symbiotic bond that you mentioned to that of protect me. Both of which could simply be referring to the ranger or the pet physically protecting the other.

however the damage can be transferred no matter the distance between the ranger and their pet. the pet can be fighting one enemy in melee and someone attacks the ranger using a long bow from behind, the pet still gets the damage redirected to them.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Rituals don’t have to be magic because praying to the gods is not described as magic in all occurrences.

And yet, they can be referred to as being magical. as such the rituals have every capacity of being magic.

By now almost definitely you’re arguing for the sake of arguing.

Daniel Handler.4816:

If you don’t want to use the names-

Daniel Handler.4816:

I will not accept names of skills as the game can be translated. Therefore one must look at them one by one.

Stop contradicting yourself.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Use the fact that tremor the mace skill says you hit the earth and generate shockwaves. The act of lighting yourself on fire and not taking damage is not surprising given the berserker stance means that you don’t receive conditions while in that stance.

The shockwave animation however is seemingly a feat of pure strength just like stomp, where as in the two examples i gave you, both used earthen magic of a sort in both animation and the skill description of atleast one of them. Also you’re wrong, the berserker stance merely removes two conditions and ONLY if traited

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Savage_Instinct “Activating berserk mode breaks stuns and removes conditions.”

also

Agroman.7190:

You shoot frikkin fireballs while going Berserk with a sword. That’s more than just physical feats.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flaming_Flurry “Lash out with a flurry of strikes that destroys projectiles and shoots fireballs at foes in front of you.”

just one more skill that proves berserker is using magic Daniel.

your point’s been disproven several times even when you contradict yourself to make a point. I’m done.

I’ll stop contradicting myself then.

Question. What do you think berserker stance is?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker_Stance
Thats how they would set themselves on fire and take no damage.

“Berserkers are warriors that have tapped into a primal bloodlust to unleash their rage in the form of powerful new burst skills.”

The devs themselves said that rage skills were acts of strength.

“The berserker’s utility skills are a new type of skill known as rage skills. This skill type is similar to the warrior’s physical skill type in that they involve feats of strength but have the added bonus of granting bonus adrenaline when used.”

The skill that shoots fire balls is called a primal burst.
If rage itself becomes an energy source is it magic?

This is what seems to be their lore explanation for Druid
“As a longtime ally of nature, the ranger can now channel the strength of Tyria itself after tapping into the primal forces of the Maguuma jungle.”
The implication was that they could not channel before.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@ehecatl. They said to tread lightly. He wasn’t constantly telling you kill things. A singular case vs constant mimicing or causing death.

Except that was still one of two times we saw the druids do any sort of magic. That’s 50% of what we know about their rituals. They sometimes require sacrifice.

There is no difference between doing this and summoning a storm, but that’s often considered a natural part of druidism in the lore of most settings. The formation of a black hole is nothing but a storm on a larger scale, and harnessing that dark, destructive power is completely in line with the Tyrian druid’s view of good and evil.

Ehecatl.9172:

Daniel Handler.4816:

@ehecatl. They said to tread lightly. He wasn’t constantly telling you kill things. A singular case vs constant mimicing or causing death.

Except that was still one of two times we saw the druids do any sort of magic. That’s 50% of what we know about their rituals. They sometimes require sacrifice.

There is no difference between doing this and summoning a storm, but that’s often considered a natural part of druidism in the lore of most settings. The formation of a black hole is nothing but a storm on a larger scale, and harnessing that dark, destructive power is completely in line with the Tyrian druid’s view of good and evil.

True. But storms grow and dissipate in cycles. Nothing is lost. The concept of a black hole is that it cannot be undone. And that for the most part that which passes into it is lost forever.

The skull of a centaur will decompose.

But I think we do need more information. When we speak to the druids of Maguuma we should restart this discussion. Because right we just don’t know and are relying on gut feelings on how these creatures would lend their namesake.

Daniel Handler.4816:

True. But storms grow and dissipate in cycles. Nothing is lost. The concept of a black hole is that it cannot be undone. And that for the most part that which passes into it is lost forever.

The skull of a centaur will decompose.

But I think we do need more information. When we speak to the druids of Maguuma we should restart this discussion. Because right we just don’t know and are relying on gut feelings on how these creatures would lend their namesake.

Actually an acting theory is that black holes evaporate over time, giving off thermal energy called Hawking Radiation slowly over their life cycle until dissipating entirely. The smaller the black hole the quicker it evaporates. A black hole of the size the player creates would evaporate almost instantly, releasing that energy back into the universe.

Obviously the game doesn’t have a scientifically accurate depiction of a black hole, but a black hole isn’t necessarily a permanent source of infinite destruction.

More information on the druids is required. My stance has simply been that, with the information we have now, the current druid elite spec doesn’t inherently clash with existing lore. There just isn’t enough known facts about the druids to say they outright didn’t have a connection to celestial forces.

It actually is a fresh take on the druid. Most druids in any RPG even in MMOs would associate Druids as either the kind that would transform into animals, or manipulate trees and whatnot to defeat their foes. And channeling nature energy from the heavens themselves is a nice touch.

Malkavian.4516:

It actually is a fresh take on the druid. Most druids in any RPG even in MMOs would associate Druids as either the kind that would transform into animals, or manipulate trees and whatnot to defeat their foes. And channeling nature energy from the heavens themselves is a nice touch.

Its fun to play make no mistake. Aspects of it are just confusing.

It doesn’t help that the way they write things is weird.

“As a longtime ally of nature, the ranger can now channel the strength of Tyria itself after tapping into the primal forces of the Maguuma jungle.”

What am I suppose to take from reading this in the reveal. That strength of tyria is celestial? Or that druid wasn’t using magic before.

Why wound’t it be celestial? Tyria is a planet is it not? It has a sky and stars, does it not?

Right, Tyria is a planet. Not a moon, not a star. You can see a moon and stars, but how does this indicate tapping into the planet give any power over them? Especially how has the jungle the ability to command celestial bodies? Stars are not dots on a glasdome attached to the planet as the church teached not too long ago, they are thousands of lightyears apart.
Tapping into the jungle you get access to its spirits and its lifeforce, being able to manipulate it in the good way unlike necros. Widen the tapping onto the “strenght of the planet” you get elements (as we see do with glyphs). Doesn’t explain the star thing.

Shiren.9532:

It’s unclear how much of that is actually magic as opposed to exaggerated themes of their abilities. I think you are misrepresenting the similarities between a ranger’s abilities and what an elementalist actually is. It’s unclear how much of that is skillful knowledge of nature and survival skills and how much of it is a ranger actually manifesting magic (spirits are rangers borrow nature’s power through summoning, not channeling it themselves). Is a berserker an elementalist because they can use the torch to summon rocks and burn away conditions? One would think an evolution of this would go towards an elementalist before it became an astral mage that seems to surpass the elementalist thematically and magically.

Yes, actually, a berserker is an elementalist because they can use a torch to summon rocks and burn away conditions.

Okay, it may not be quite as simple as that, but we’ve been told that yes, warriors do use magic at an instinctive level, and warrior/elementalists were a thing you could do in GW1. It seems reasonable that when a warrior starts summon rocks and flinging fires around, that they’ve found a way to tap into elemental magic (or something very similar) through their rage. Basically, the berserker is bringing the GW1 W/E into GW2.

Working back to rangers: Explain Winter’s Bite as skillful knowledge of nature and survival skills. Either they’re freezing the axe by magic themselves, they’re invoking a spirit to do so, or they’re carrying around a dewer of liquid nitrogen that they dip the axe into before they throw it. I consider the first two much more likely than the third, and both interpretations work for the druid as I will explain presently.

HoT’s druid isn’t a dabler in magic, it’s not a martial profession’s first steps into magic – it’s some kind of cosmic mage of balance and astral powers who has become so proficient in magic they are now Tyria’s greatest healers and seem to embody balance – able to physically change into a celestial form. I honestly believe if you wrote down the skills of the druid without any references to the ranger and asked people what profession it was, ranger would be picked after at least three other professions. Even with the skill names and the spell effects I suspect you’d get guardian, elementalist or necromancer almost exclusively before anyone even suggested ranger.

That’s because the ranger itself is the martial profession’s first steps into magic… and possibly second, third, and more as well.

Granted, personally I would have used more plant and water themes if I was going for a healing druid from the ranger base. However, as to where they got that from – if ranger magic is the ranger performing magic for themselves, this would be explainable by them having learned this additional magic from the druids of GW1 lore, and the druids of GW1 lore, like historical druids, considered cosmic phenomena to be part of the natural cycle.

If we take the tack that ranger magic is all from powers granted by spirits, it’s even easier. Druids are rangers that have learned how to commune with cosmic spirits in addition to those of storm, sun, frost and stone. The celestial avatar is one of the techniques for channeling the power granted by those cosmic spirits. Done.

draxynnic.3719:

I’m fine with elite specs being secondary professions, but I want them to be thematically apropriate. An astral mage is not how I believe a Tyrian ranger would embrace magic, certainly not for the first time. An astral mage that doesn’t interact with, embrace, enhance or embody the ranger’s bond with wild beasts is not how I believe a Tyrian ranger would embrace magic.

For it to genuinely have that secondary profession feel, then it really has to be going outside of the regular comfort zone at some level.

(As an aside, I’d note that one element of the druid as it currently stands is that one of the things that can be receiving that focused healing is the pet. I’d suspect that’s part of the meta-reason why it’s been done this way: traditionally healing-focused characters tend to be poor at soloing, but the druid always has at least their companion to receive healing. So part of the connection could be finding the most efficient means of keeping their pet alive.)

Some people assume that stars are mutually exclusive of the elements on Tyria. In tyria we have fire, water, ether etc. then there are stars. That stars are just another element. This is not true. What I am trying to say is that the elements that make up Tyria make up the stars and the celestial. So I don’t understand why it is far fetched. It may require more power or training or experience, but not just possible, but in my opinion expected.

There is a possibility the sentence means that you used magic before you just weren’t channeling the planet itself.

It also could mean that the ranger just borrowed his magic before and didn’t channel up till now.

@plagiarised
I think the issue people find is that if you channel the forces of tyria itself you should have a power increase in the areas that are tyrias dominion. So the tidal skills and the plant skills are fine. The problem is that tyria hypothetically has no control over the stars, so you wouldn’t gain star abilities by channeling the planets spirit.

What seems to fit the text is that channeling tyria gives a power boost. As a result the druid might become more connected to aspects of nature it had previously been distant from. And what we know from rangers is that the closer the connection to an animal/plant/spirit the stronger the rangers abilities.

The reason its still a mess is because you would think any of the forces they mention would appear earlier in the story.