Guild Wars 2

Lord Samuelsson, Duke of Ebonhawke – thus King of Human Ascalon was known as Commander Wade Samuelsson: (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wade_Samuelsson) in the events of the current game – Guild Wars 2. In order to hide his true intentions from an ally he did not trust – Queen Jennah of Krtya and an enemy he cannot challenge directly, he has ordered his soldier to pretend to be rebels and call themselves “Separatists”.

Which of course was always political fiction. His troops and the citizens of the Stronghold of Ebonhawke understood this and supported this fiction by their words and action. With the end of the events of GW2 he would move to rebuild Serenity Temple and force the hand of the Krytan Queen.

He would negotiate official aid from Kryta with terms that allow him a free hand to continue to serve his people and secure a crop/grazing hinterland around Ebonhawke and the Serenity Temple. This move would put the Orders of Tyria in an uncomfortable position – but they will do nothing – since any move by any would be seen as an act of war by all humans – Ascalonians and Krytans alike.

Please also now refer to my post in regards to Rurik’s sword Sohothin. Which I wrote after this piece.

If King Adelbern had received from Devona and her friends, Ascalon City may well have been saved. Since Adelbern could now claim that his son would have wanted his homeland secure despite their differences.

It may be that it be Devona as Adelbern’s new champion that then welds it in battle. She along with Mhenlo, Gwen, Cynn, Aidan and Eve would all supported Adelbern’s claim. The claim that Rurik wanted Ascalon City secure and in human hands.

Stopping the exodus to Kryta

If this is fan fiction then it belongs here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/fangen
rather than in the lore forum.

Also it was pretty clear that Rurik supported the shifting of Ascalonians to Kryta – he died attempting to ensure their safe passage. Considering Devona and Co. also left Ascalon and headed towards Kryta it’s pretty safe to say that they would have been more in line with Rurik than with Adelbern.

Devona and friends may well have supported Rurik in their travels to Lion’s Arch and beyond but on any return trip to Ascalon City as they would have to return Sohothin to Adelbern they would have been made to be seen to support the word of the King .

Since Devona, Gwen, Mhenlo and friends views would differ to that of Rurik and would have shared many camp fires with the Ebon (Ascalon) Vanguard they would have felted honor bound to support the will of their King, Adelbern. On this matter.

PS: as for this being fanfiction that would require an addition of non-cannon material. mere opinion is not enough. It is safe to assume that Sohothin would have been returned to Adelbern by this group or part of.

After going through Tyria Devona and Co went to Cantha to help out against Shiro and were once again present during the events of Nightfall. So they certainly didn’t carry the sword all the way back to Ascalon straight away or anything – and there is nothing to indicate they were the ones who retrieved Sohothin.

There is also nothing to indicate that they would swear any kind of loyalty to Adelbern… If they returned the sword to him it was out of respect for Rurik, but there would have been nothing preventing them from leaving once again. You can’t say they would have felt honour bound to Adelbern because there is nothing to indicate they had that kind of loyalty or respect to him.

Also the presence of Sohothin and Maegdar wouldn’t have prevented the Ascalonian migration to Kryta. Yes the swords are objects of power and yes Adelbern was able to incur the Foefire using Maegdar, but the citizens of Ascalon who left would still have wanted to leave. Two magic swords vs. Charr army, a lot of people would rather not take that chance.

Given that Sohothins last known location at the end of GW1 was Hell’s Precipice and it’s possessor in GW2 is Rytlock we can’t really say with any kind of certainty what happened to it in the time between. Yes Logan thinks he looted it from Ascalon, but he could have just as easily come across it by some other means.

The reason I thought this was fan fiction is that your first paragraph doesn’t really use any fact as basis. You say that Commander Wade doesn’t trust Jennah and doesn’t want to challenge her, but to my knowledge there is nothing in game to suggest that. He does not consider her his queen, but that makes perfect sense, she is the queen of Kryta not of Ascalon. The fact that he names her an “ally” sort of suggests that there is no bad blood between them. He also wouldn’t consider her an enemy. He’s not a separatist, he’s a descendant of the Ascalonian royal line and a member of a failing race.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

After going through Tyria Devona and Co went to Cantha to help out against Shiro and were once again present during the events of Nightfall. So they certainly didn’t carry the sword all the way back to Ascalon straight away or anything – and there is nothing to indicate they were the ones who retrieved Sohothin.

There is also nothing to indicate that they would swear any kind of loyalty to Adelbern… If they returned the sword to him it was out of respect for Rurik, but there would have been nothing preventing them from leaving once again. You can’t say they would have felt honour bound to Adelbern because there is nothing to indicate they had that kind of loyalty or respect to him.

Also the presence of Sohothin and Maegdar wouldn’t have prevented the Ascalonian migration to Kryta. Yes the swords are objects of power and yes Adelbern was able to incur the Foefire using Maegdar, but the citizens of Ascalon who left would still have wanted to leave. Two magic swords vs. Charr army, a lot of people would rather not take that chance.

Given that Sohothins last known location at the end of GW1 was Hell’s Precipice and it’s possessor in GW2 is Rytlock we can’t really say with any kind of certainty what happened to it in the time between. Yes Logan thinks he looted it from Ascalon, but he could have just as easily come across it by some other means.

The reason I thought this was fan fiction is that your first paragraph doesn’t really use any fact as basis. You say that Commander Wade doesn’t trust Jennah and doesn’t want to challenge her, but to my knowledge there is nothing in game to suggest that. He does not consider her his queen, but that makes perfect sense, she is the queen of Kryta not of Ascalon. The fact that he names her an “ally” sort of suggests that there is no bad blood between them. He also wouldn’t consider her an enemy. He’s not a separatist, he’s a descendant of the Ascalonian royal line and a member of a failing race.

I agree 100% with this. The separatists are just that. There the “Evil Humans” in Ascalon just so you have an extra foe to fight. Like the bandits/white mantle in Kryta. I do think your reading too much into it, but an interesting if a little flawed idea.

That fact that Samuelsson continues the traditions of the Thackerays and Langmar leading the defence of Ebonhawke and is committed to ensuring a major human settlement in Ascalon proves that he IS a Separatist (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ebon_Vanguard) . Since as is well known the Charr have an overwhelming military advantage in Ascalon ever since the the events of Prophecies and years immediately before – there is no other logical reason to maintain and sustain Ebonhawke.

Also the Ebon Vanguard include a number of Ascalonian refugees and ex-prisoners of the Charr (ie Gwen) that were willing and able to fight. These same types of people are now branded as “Separatists” in GW2.

Queen of the Krytans, Jennah would prefer that the people of Ebonhawke all move to Kryta wholesale. This is certainly the opinion of her ministers as per conversations in Divinity’s Reach.

The details of Devona and friends movements are very limited at best outside what was needed for the release of the other GW campaigns. A deliberate act on the part of the writers who needed to solidify the Charr’s “rightful” claim over Ascalon. This is false in my opinion.

More to the point. The Humans of Tyria especially Queen Jennah and her ministers know that the interests of humanity and that of the Orders of Tyria do not match in the long term. Humanity needs to recover as much of Ascalon as possible to regain at least some of their former status. To limit themselves to Kryta is not in their best interest.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

That fact that Samuelsson continues the traditions of the Thackerays and Langmar leading the defence of Ebonhawke and is committed to ensuring a major human settlement in Ascalon proves that he IS a Separatist (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ebon_Vanguard) . Since as is well known the Charr have an overwhelming military advantage in Ascalon ever since the the events of Prophecies and years immediately before – there is no other logical reason to maintain and sustain Ebonhawke.

Also the Ebon Vanguard include a number of Ascalonian refugees and ex-prisoners of the Charr (ie Gwen) that were willing and able to fight. These same types of people are now branded as “Separatists” in GW2.

Queen of the Krytans, Jennah would prefer that the people of Ebonhawke all move to Kryta wholesale. This is certainly the opinion of her ministers as per conversations in Divinity’s Reach.

The details of Devona and friends movements are very limited at best outside what was needed for the release of the other GW campaigns. A deliberate act on the part of the writers who needed to solidify the Charr’s “rightful” claim over Ascalon. This is false in my opinion.

More to the point. The Humans of Tyria especially Queen Jennah and her ministers know that the interests of humanity and that of the Orders of Tyria do not match in the long term. Humanity needs to recover as much of Ascalon as possible to regain at least some of their former status. To limit themselves to Kryta is not in their best interest.

The Ascalonians in Ebonhawke are not Separatists O_o. SOME of them are separatists and certainly there are separatist hideouts within Ebonhawke, but the population as a whole certainly are not separatists and neither is Wade… The Charr that they are fighting are the Flame Legion who are considered enemies of both Humanity and of the other Charr factions…

The fact that Jennah and her ministers want Ebonhawke’s citizens to be relocated to Kryta doesn’t tell you a lot other than that they want humanity’s strength to be located in one place to ensure the safety and continuation of their population.

Your last two paragraphs are pure opinion and as such I’m really not sure how to respond to them.

The Charr’s claim over Ascalon is certainly debatable, but it was originally THEIR land. It was taken from them by the Humans and they have now acted to take it back. You’re looking at recent atrocities committed against humanity by the Charr and deciding that humanity is therefore in the right and it’s their land. But in doing so you’re forgetting that at once point humanity committed these same atrocities against the Charr and drove them from their home land…

You’re basically saying that humanity needs to stand on their own without the aid of the other races because somehow that will make them stronger and ensure they aren’t wiped out – the opposite of that is true…. Humanity needs the other races, Tyria is a changing place and without the other races humanity stands little chance of survival, especially if they make enemies of their allies.

You’re also forgetting that Elona and Cantha are/were (we can’t state anything about the present since we can’t go there and don’t have direct contact) human kingdoms. Kryta is not the last bastion of humanity.

Oh joy, I get to pour gas on the fire again.

Ascalon was never Charr homeland, let’s not get that rumor started. They occupied it at the time the gods brought the humans there, but their homeland is farther north.

As for Devona’s loyalty to Adelbern…well her father was in the same guild as him(Ascalon’s Chosen). But even without that, she was still loyal to him as her king. HERE’S her words in a pre-searing quest.

At any rate, the chance of Ascalon returning to humans is below zero. The devs certainly would never allow that scenario. GW2 isn’t just a game with different combat mechanics than GW1, it’s a very different narrative as well. Personally I think it was a bad storyline decision, but the Charr are there to stay whether we like it or not.

Obsidian.1328:

Oh joy, I get to pour gas on the fire again.

Ascalon was never Charr homeland, let’s not get that rumor started. They occupied it at the time the gods brought the humans there, but their homeland is farther north.

First, we have no information about Ascalon in ancient times. Only information we have is “charr kicked out someone from Ascalon once”, but nothing about original owner of those lands. Ascalon still can be charr homeland.
Second, facts mentioned above still cannot be justification for human aggression. Humans was 100% foreign invaders who simply come and grab new lands for themselves.
Third, Ascalon Kingdom was only first step. Humans not stopped, but continue to advance further to north, and even if charr homeland was not conquered before, now it was very clear next target. And with good old genocide as method of land cleansing. Have you seen charr reservations in GW1 Ascalon? Enclaves? Embassies? Separate friendly tribes? Any sign of trade? IRL history says hello.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

That fact that Samuelsson continues the traditions of the Thackerays and Langmar leading the defence of Ebonhawke and is committed to ensuring a major human settlement in Ascalon proves that he IS a Separatist (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ebon_Vanguard) . Since as is well known the Charr have an overwhelming military advantage in Ascalon ever since the the events of Prophecies and years immediately before – there is no other logical reason to maintain and sustain Ebonhawke.

Also the Ebon Vanguard include a number of Ascalonian refugees and ex-prisoners of the Charr (ie Gwen) that were willing and able to fight. These same types of people are now branded as “Separatists” in GW2.

Queen of the Krytans, Jennah would prefer that the people of Ebonhawke all move to Kryta wholesale. This is certainly the opinion of her ministers as per conversations in Divinity’s Reach.

The details of Devona and friends movements are very limited at best outside what was needed for the release of the other GW campaigns. A deliberate act on the part of the writers who needed to solidify the Charr’s “rightful” claim over Ascalon. This is false in my opinion.

More to the point. The Humans of Tyria especially Queen Jennah and her ministers know that the interests of humanity and that of the Orders of Tyria do not match in the long term. Humanity needs to recover as much of Ascalon as possible to regain at least some of their former status. To limit themselves to Kryta is not in their best interest.

The Ascalonians in Ebonhawke are not Separatists O_o. SOME of them are separatists and certainly there are separatist hideouts within Ebonhawke, but the population as a whole certainly are not separatists and neither is Wade… The Charr that they are fighting are the Flame Legion who are considered enemies of both Humanity and of the other Charr factions…

The fact that Jennah and her ministers want Ebonhawke’s citizens to be relocated to Kryta doesn’t tell you a lot other than that they want humanity’s strength to be located in one place to ensure the safety and continuation of their population.

Your last two paragraphs are pure opinion and as such I’m really not sure how to respond to them.

The Charr’s claim over Ascalon is certainly debatable, but it was originally THEIR land. It was taken from them by the Humans and they have now acted to take it back. You’re looking at recent atrocities committed against humanity by the Charr and deciding that humanity is therefore in the right and it’s their land. But in doing so you’re forgetting that at once point humanity committed these same atrocities against the Charr and drove them from their home land…

You’re basically saying that humanity needs to stand on their own without the aid of the other races because somehow that will make them stronger and ensure they aren’t wiped out – the opposite of that is true…. Humanity needs the other races, Tyria is a changing place and without the other races humanity stands little chance of survival, especially if they make enemies of their allies.

You’re also forgetting that Elona and Cantha are/were (we can’t state anything about the present since we can’t go there and don’t have direct contact) human kingdoms. Kryta is not the last bastion of humanity.

Its not? really. How about a little walk into the current state of affairs in these two kingdoms. Starting with Cantha. It is now known as the Empire of the Dragon – under the isolationist and xenophobic imperial rule of Emperor Usoku and his Ministry of Purity. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cantha. The Luxon and Kurzick Factions smashed.

And Elona is much, much worst. Palawa Joko has invaded and taken most of Elona. The Sunspears corrupted/smashed as well. Elona is now ruled by the undead. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elona

Only in Kryta do humans live in relative peace and security.

Rednik.3809:

First, we have no information about Ascalon in ancient times. Only information we have is “charr kicked out someone from Ascalon once”, but nothing about original owner of those lands. Ascalon still can be charr homeland.
Second, facts mentioned above still cannot be justification for human aggression. Humans was 100% foreign invaders who simply come and grab new lands for themselves.
Third, Ascalon Kingdom was only first step. Humans not stopped, but continue to advance further to north, and even if charr homeland was not conquered before, now it was very clear next target. And with good old genocide as method of land cleansing. Have you seen charr reservations in GW1 Ascalon? Enclaves? Embassies? Separate friendly tribes? Any sign of trade? IRL history says hello.

Other than it has been stated pointblank that the Charr’s homeland wasn’t Ascalon? Taken from The Ecology of the Charr ...

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.

The Charr’s homelands are east of the Blazeridge Mountains. Once they were unified, they pushed their way north before they turned south into Ascalon, and they were killing and conquering the whole way. That said, they weren’t any different than the humans when they first arrived. When they conquered Ascalon, they were both foreign invaders killing everything that stood in their way. The only difference being that the Charr were from at least Tyria. Which didn’t matter in the end, since they both killed anyone who might question their conquering credentials.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Its not? really. How about a little walk into the current state of affairs in these two kingdoms. Starting with Cantha. It is now known as the Empire of the Dragon – under the isolationist and xenophobic imperial rule of Emperor Usoku and his Ministry of Purity. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cantha. The Luxon and Kurzick Factions smashed.

And Elona is much, much worst. Palawa Joko has invaded and taken most of Elona. The Sunspears corrupted/smashed as well. Elona is now ruled by the undead. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elona

Only in Kryta do humans live in relative peace and security.

As FlamingFoxx said before, we have no information of the current affairs of each kingdom. So, your view points on how Cantha and Elona are at the moment is your own personal theory and not factual.

Though, I would like to point out a couple of things.

1. Cantha was always known at the Empire of the Dragon.
2. Unless he discovered the secret of immortality, Usoku is most likely dead.
3. We have no idea how the MoP has evolved over the last 250 years, if it has at all.
4. You can’t have _un_dead without dead. While he incorporated the undead into the society, Elona is still very much a human kingdom.

Rednik

What Erukk said, and also…

Since when did Ascalonians try/want to eradicate the Charr. Once the gods settled them in Ascalon, there’s never a mention anywhere of them going further into Charr territory. Nor did they want to, they weren’t genocidal. Not to mention, the actual Guild Wars kept them busy anyway.

I find it rather odd you claim Ascalonians as warmongerers…I seem to recall the Charr nearly wiping humans off the face of the Tyrian continent. And why? Aside from possible influence from Abaddon, it seems to be simply because the humans gave them their first real loss in a fight and they wanted every one of them dead because of it. Or they just like killing stuph. Probably both.

Obsidian.1328:

Rednik

What Erukk said, and also…

Since when did Ascalonians try/want to eradicate the Charr.

Zero charr presence in Ascalon. Absolute zero. You gonna tell me that all charr tribes just left their lands? Nobody tried to stay and coexist? Nobody tried to trade? It was a pretty common thing in IRL history.
Charr was NOT united until rise of Flame Shamans, so there was no one who could ban tribe leaders\families\individuals to do so. And yet we didn’t see anything, and even more so, we see HATE, blind hate to humanity. What was the reason for such hatred? Just war, which in general, is a common thing for the primitive tribes and is not something special? Or something else, something that they experienced during the first war, something that caused them to forget any idea of coexistence? Was the Charr Hide armor something new, or manufacturers simply remembered the old days?

Obsidian.1328:

Once the gods settled them in Ascalon, there’s never a mention anywhere of them going further into Charr territory. Nor did they want to, they weren’t genocidal. Not to mention, the actual Guild Wars kept them busy anyway.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Great_Northern_Wall
“However, over time the Ascalonians began expanding north beyond the Wall, establishing cities not protected by the Wall, including Surmia, Nolani, and Drascir, which became the capital”

I find it rather odd you claim Ascalonians as warmongerers…I seem to recall the Charr nearly wiping humans off the face of the Tyrian continent. And why? Aside from possible influence from Abaddon, it seems to be simply because the humans gave them their first real loss in a fight and they wanted every one of them dead because of it. Or they just like killing stuph. Probably both.

Someone wiped you from one piece of land, settled on those lands, and now expanding further, further into YOUR direction. What will they do to you this time, “bring civilization by the name of our Gods” again?

Rednik.3809:

Zero charr presence in Ascalon. Absolute zero. You gonna tell me that all charr tribes just left their lands? Nobody tried to stay and coexist? Nobody tried to trade? It was a pretty common thing in IRL history.

Charr? Peace? Trade? What madness is this!? I’m guessing you don’t know the Charr all that well, especially the primitive Charr.

Charr was NOT united until rise of Flame Shamans, so there was no one who could ban tribe leaders\families\individuals to do so.

And my point is proven right here. The primitive Charr, during the time humans were first conquering Ascalon, were united by the Khan-Ur. He was able to united all the independent warbands together, and he was the only thing keeping them together in the end. Because without him, they would be ripping each other apart in power struggles.

And yet we didn’t see anything, and even more so, we see HATE, blind hate to humanity. What was the reason for such hatred? Just war, which in general, is a common thing for the primitive tribes and is not something special? Or something else, something that they experienced during the first war, something that caused them to forget any idea of coexistence?

The primitive Charr hated humanity simply because they challenged their power and dominance. This hatred is intensified when they lost their war to the humans, and they had to surrender Ascalon and flee north. After that, they were preparing a counterstike by burning everything in their retreat, but then the Khan-Ur got assassinated. I’m sure you can make an guess at who was behind that.

Someone wiped you from one piece of land, settled on those lands, and now expanding further, further into YOUR direction. What will they do to you this time, “bring civilization by the name of our Gods” again?

Technically, they’re both guilty of that. Though, the Charr only used the “God” excuse when they were led by the Flame Legion. Before and after that, they didn’t need a reason for killing and conquering people for their land. They did it simply because they could.

Rednik

Dude, listen. You might want to play Prophecies to get a better understanding. Again, what Erukk said, plus:

You’re acting like the Charr had settlements in Ascalon, there’s no evidence of that. Most likely it was simply hunting grounds for them, but we really down’t know.

No one tried to coexist because I’m sure neither side wanted to. The Charr of old are not like the steampunky imperial Charr of today, they were primitive beasts who were superior fighters. That Charr Hide armor existed because no one, including the game designers mind you, viewed the Charr as anything but beasts. Oh, and it didn’t help that they usually burned alive their prisoners at the stake, if they didn’t kitten them first.

The Great Northern Wall divides Ascalon in half, it doesn’t encompass it. After the humans and gods pushed the Charr out way back in the day, the humans probably didn’t have enough people to settle all of it and started in the south. You see, the Ascalon Basin is basically a huge circle, Ascalon City sits pretty much in the middle of it. So when they said “expanding north of the wall” they were still in Ascalon. For instance, Duke Gaban’s Estate in the Bonus Mission Pack quest with Gwen is considered to be on the northern boundaries of Ascalon. There’s a lovely map HERE where you can see the wall from a satellite view.

I get that you like the Charr, and that’s fine. But there’s no need to try and make up stuff about their past because it might be hard to accept. Just enjoy them for what they are now: a highly advanced race of militaristic cat-like beings that have a history all their own and don’t need to be compared to humans anymore.

Here’s another map which actually has Gaban’s Estate on it. :/

Wouldn’t it be awesome if the ghosts leave the minute the charr agree that Rytlock is the new Khan-Ur?

Erukk.1408:

Charr? Peace? Trade? What madness is this!? I’m guessing you don’t know the Charr all that well, especially the primitive Charr.

And my point is proven right here. The primitive Charr, during the time humans were first conquering Ascalon, were united by the Khan-Ur. He was able to united all the independent warbands together, and he was the only thing keeping them together in the end. Because without him, they would be ripping each other apart in power struggles.

See history of our world colonization. In any tribal society you can find groups who hate others so much that they are willing to cooperate with foreigners. Savagery and aggressiveness in this case do not matter, even very primitive tribes are familiar with the concept of alliance.

The primitive Charr hated humanity simply because they challenged their power and dominance. This hatred is intensified when they lost their war to the humans, and they had to surrender Ascalon and flee north. After that, they were preparing a counterstike by burning everything in their retreat, but then the Khan-Ur got assassinated. I’m sure you can make an guess at who was behind that.

Again, you seems to not understand tribal mentality. There is no such conception as “our nation” for them. To develop and adopt the idea of the nation – you must create a state first. Until that one tribe does not care what happens on the lands of another tribe. All those talks about “they hate us because they are savage, not because we killed them all and took their land” looks like usual propaganda of colonial era.

Obsidian and the others are right about one thing. Ascalon was not originally Charr land; they too were settlers from their original homelands farther north and east.

That said, the fact remains that the Charr were there FIRST. Humanity did therefore strike the first blow by kicking the Charr out of Ascalon.

On a more humorous note, I think it’s been said somewhere that the Grawl were actually the first settlers of Ascalon. So maybe both humans AND Charr should get out and leave it to its “first inhabitants”.

Obsidian.1328:

You’re acting like the Charr had settlements in Ascalon, there’s no evidence of that. Most likely it was simply hunting grounds for them, but we really down’t know.

You cannot have hunting grounds of such size of you don’t have a transport of modern era. You have to live here.

Obsidian.1328:

No one tried to coexist because I’m sure neither side wanted to.

Ofc you don’t need to coexist if you are able to take anything you want and simply wipe everyone who lived here before. Especially if they are not even from your species. They are savage mindless beasts after all, such beings can’t have any rights to own this land, especially if we come to settle here.

The Charr of old are not like the steampunky imperial Charr of today, they were primitive beasts who were superior fighters. That Charr Hide armor existed because no one, including the game designers mind you, viewed the Charr as anything but beasts. Oh, and it didn’t help that they usually burned alive their prisoners at the stake, if they didn’t kitten them first.

And here is another proof of their savagery. Unmotivated aggression, hatred, cruelty. Not like they are experienced something like that in past from humans during colonization, it’s just their savage nature.

Obsidian.1328:

The Great Northern Wall divides Ascalon in half, it doesn’t encompass it. After the humans and gods pushed the Charr out way back in the day, the humans probably didn’t have enough people to settle all of it and started in the south. You see, the Ascalon Basin is basically a huge circle, Ascalon City sits pretty much in the middle of it. So when they said “expanding north of the wall” they were still in Ascalon. For instance, Duke Gaban’s Estate in the Bonus Mission Pack quest with Gwen is considered to be on the northern boundaries of Ascalon. There’s a lovely map HERE where you can see the wall from a satellite view.

Great Northern Wall was FIRST border. But when the population has grown enough, why not expand further? There is a lot of nice land to the north. Okay, we taken all Ascalon.
Now let’s imagine that some centuries passed, and the war did not happen. What do we have? Our population has grown even more. We have the desert in the south, the mountains (already populated) in the west, who knows what lies to the east, and … lands in the north. Good lands, with a good climate, and there is no one who could pretend for them, except for primitive savages. Well, we know what to do, right?

Rednik

Dude, you really need to playthrough Prophecies, or at least read over the GW wiki. I’m not making this up.

For one thing, the Wall was started in 898 AE. Ascalon was established by the humans @100 AE. That’s 8 centuries. Let’s say it took 70 years to complete, that means it only stood for 200 years before the Searing Cauldron toppled it. First 8 centuries without a wall, last 2 centuries with it…how is that the first border??

It was built specifically to counter the reemergence of Charr aggression in the north during the 3rd and final guild war between Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr. Ascalon apparently didn’t like the idea of dealing with the other two human nations as well as the Charr, so they designed it to protect the bulk of the population in case of a Charr assault. Heck, even the old capital, Drascir, was north of the wall. As I said, you can simply read about it if you want.

As for humans treating them cruelly, I highly doubt they were the first to take the gloves off. The old Charr had a long history of brutality. And not just to humans, they were plain mean to anything they came across. That was their role in the first game man, they were the apex antagonists. I didn’t write ’em that way, ANet did.

Lastly, you’re trying to incorporate real-life phenomenon into the equation, which just doesn’t work with fantasy writing. Especially for a game. Transportation mechanics and cultural characteristics are relevant in real-life scenarios. But if you are really trying to apply them to a video game culture, you might need some fresh air. That’s just the way they were written. You shouldn’t try to expound on the improbabilities of certain cultural relations between races…unless that’s how they were intended to be portrayed by the developers. In GW1, the Charr eventuality as a playable race was never intended until GW2 development started. I’ll put it simple:

• GW1 Charr —> evil cat race bent on annihilation of anyone they came across
• GW2 Charr —> industrious, militaristic cat race united with the other 4 main races to rid Tyria of the Elder Dragons

The writer’s went to great pains to show them in a new light, and they did a remarkable job with it. But it’s one thing to show a different side of something, and quite another to simply remake it. We’re not just seeing a kinder, gentler side of the Charr now, ANet remade them into something that could be a playable race. Sure they try and pass it off by using 250 years of progress, or atheism supports mechanical inclination, or we only saw them from the humans point of view, or whatever else they can think of. But that’s simply not the case with them. This isn’t a factions game, which means every race has to get along in order for the story to hold any weight. Kapish?

I like Zaxares’ idea, give it to the grawl. It’s not like it matters at this point.

@topic
Samuelsson should never ask Krytans for help, Ascalon should deal with this beasts all alone, as always. If I were Samuelsson, I would travel to Ascalon City (with Magdaer or Sohothin somehow, as legend says) and ask ghosts for help in order to invade charr forces. Asking Krytans would be an insult, offense against Ascalon’s history, and a sign of unloyalty to the King Adelbern. Krytans are not to be trusted!

From what can piece together from all my readings and through playing through the Guild Wars campaigns on several characters – some Ascalonian, some not. I have not seen any evidence that the Charr have any claim to Ascalon south of The Great Northern Wall as the humans who built it call it.

THe Charr like the Grawl were a nomadic people. However unlike the Grawl, the Charr showed no inclination to negotiate or live in peace with a neighbour – indeed they acted brutally and mercilessly to all who oppose or got in their way.

And so when they saw that humans had entrenched themselves in the southern half of Ascalon they were far from pleased. And so the Charr claim to all of Ascalon as a Homeland is far from legitimate it is false. In Guild Wars the Charr were not shown to have built and permanent structures in ANY part of Ascalon. At best they can only claim Ascalon to the north of the Wall, since they can show proof that they hunt in that part of Ascalon.

Humanity has therefore have better claim to Ascalon south of the ruins of the Wall as compared to the Charr or any recognised race in Tyria.

Obsidian.1328:

Rednik

Dude, you really need to playthrough Prophecies, or at least read over the GW wiki. I’m not making this up.

For one thing, the Wall was started in 898 AE. Ascalon was established by the humans @100 AE. That’s 8 centuries. Let’s say it took 70 years to complete, that means it only stood for 200 years before the Searing Cauldron toppled it. First 8 centuries without a wall, last 2 centuries with it…how is that the first border??

It was built specifically to counter the reemergence of Charr aggression in the north during the 3rd and final guild war between Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr. Ascalon apparently didn’t like the idea of dealing with the other two human nations as well as the Charr, so they designed it to protect the bulk of the population in case of a Charr assault. Heck, even the old capital, Drascir, was north of the wall. As I said, you can simply read about it if you want.

Nope. Wall was built before Third Guild War and for centuries ago before charr invasion.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Timeline
898 AE The Great Northern Wall is erected.
1013 AE The Third Guild War begin in Tyria.
1020 AE Surmia is founded.

Also, again.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Great_Northern_Wall
“The Wall was erected to protect the bulk of the Ascalon kingdom. However, over time the Ascalonians began expanding north beyond the Wall,establishing cities not protected by the Wall, including Surmia, Nolani, and Drascir, which became the capital”
Ascalonian expansion to the north is a fact, not some speculation. And there was zero reasons for them not to expand even further. If the charr invasion would not have happened, then we would have next “settle war” in a few centuries.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Humanity has therefore have better claim to Ascalon south of the ruins of the Wall as compared to the Charr or any recognised race in Tyria.

Humans have same claim for Ascalon as everyone else who lived here before. They were foreign invaders who seized the land by right of the strongest.

Before the successful charr invasion, yes, but the charr and Ascalonians had been at war since 100 BE. The Wall was built just shy of a thousand years into the conflict, in the last fifth of it (not counting the Ebonhawke Insurrection). That was Obsidian’s point there.

And no, just because someone put it on the wiki does not mean that it is a fact. Surmia is the only city we can say for sure was built after the Great Northern Wall. I agree with you that Drascir and Nolani were probably built after the Wall, but it is not a fact.

Rednik

Hey I can cut and paste too!!

…began construction in 898 AE; it stretches from the Shiverpeak Mountains in the west, to the Eastern Frontier. It was built before the start of the latest Guild Wars, when the Charr threat began to appear imminent once again.

It never said how long it took to build it, that timeline quote is a misprint. It should say “started” since there are other sources which say so. As for my wrong guild wars…you’re right, I was off on that. I assumed it took longer to build than a century I guess, it’s fairly massive. /shrug

At any rate, that’s not the point.

The point is you’re using that classiest of amateur college moves and only quoting part of the relevant text. My quote immediately preceded yours on that wiki page, yet you chose not to use it. #slowhandclap

Also, what is a “settle war”?

Settle war – war for land for settlement.
Also, exact timelines for wall building are irrelevant to topic anyway. We still have the fact – Ascalonian expansion to the north is real, and there is no reason to believe that the settlers would not try to push further and further.

Meh, it’s not a fact per se. It’s an argument based on thematic assumptions. You assume Ascalonians are inherently expansionistic based on the fact they are…human…I guess. And that they settled a geographical basin that was formerly owned by another race.

One extremely good reason not to push further and further is simply because they didn’t have the manpower for it. They were fighting a two-front war. Perhaps, hypothetically speaking, hundreds of years down the line when Ascalon would have been overcrowded, then yes…they might have tried to settle more land. But it certainly wasn’t a reality at the time, where is the evidence of this?

Also, a land settlement would most likely be between two different civilized peoples. The Charr back then were anything but. They were the orcs of Tyria. How odd would it have been in Tolkiens books if Gondor humans and Mordor orcs sat down at a bargaining table in Osgiliath and negotiated land claims and realm boundries. It wouldn’t have made any sense at all with the plot.

Obsidian.1328:

Meh, it’s not a fact per se. It’s an argument based on thematic assumptions. You assume Ascalonians are inherently expansionistic based on the fact they are…human…I guess. And that they settled a geographical basin that was formerly owned by another race.

One extremely good reason not to push further and further is simply because they didn’t have the manpower for it. They were fighting a two-front war. Perhaps, hypothetically speaking, hundreds of years down the line when Ascalon would have been overcrowded, then yes…they might have tried to settle more land. But it certainly wasn’t a reality at the time, where is the evidence of this?

Also, a land settlement would most likely be between two different civilized peoples. The Charr back then were anything but. They were the orcs of Tyria. How odd would it have been in Tolkiens books if Gondor humans and Mordor orcs sat down at a bargaining table in Osgiliath and negotiated land claims and realm boundries. It wouldn’t have made any sense at all with the plot.

The purpose of my previous posts was to show another side of history. History is usually written by victors, and almost never depict them in bad light, but if we have some examples from similar events, we eventually can see a lot of things that was not even mentioned in official version of events.
IRL history teaches us very simple idea – war is always ugly. Things like genocide, mass murders of civilians, ethnic cleansing, executions of PoW was common in our history (yet usually out of picture in public reports). If you’re not warlike and brutal – you will be conquered and subjugated by someone else, it was a historical “natural selection” among nations and states. And since ascalonians was a members of human race, I’m pretty sure that they are not exception.
So, in my eyes, all this history with ascalonian conquest and facts like complete, total disappearance of native population, blind, burning hate from charr invaders, etc., and official human version with suspiciously little information about their conquest, and loud cries about savages who burn kingdom into the ashes for no reason, just because they are so cruel and evil – I see here at least attempts to hide and distort some ugly moments of ascalonian history.
Tl;dr – Whole history about first human-charr wars was pretty black-and-white story. I don’t believe to black-and-white stories.

Look I understand what you’re saying there, I’m a history major myself. But this isn’t history, it’s fantasy fiction. I don’t like to engage in black&whites either, but we’re not talking about two sides to a story, it’s really just one side: the writers.

The “point-of-view” of the victors isn’t the Ascalonians, it’s the authors of Prophecies. You could argue perhaps that the authors purposely wrote the Charr to be one-dimensional villains back then specifically so that they could be expanded upon at some future time, but I doubt that was the case. You could also argue every creature in Guild Wars has this potential for both good and evil and it’s merely a matter of choice or point-of-view. This is how GW2 does it, and makes a very sharp contrast to GW1 writing.

In GW1, who’s bad and who’s good is easy to figure out. It’s very cut and dry, and there’s little room for moral ambiguity. It’s not a question of character point-of-view though, it’s simply the writing style used to in the storyline. Tolkien used the same techniques in his books: humans/elves=good, orcs/goblins=bad. There are exceptions, of course, but that is how the literature played out in a general sense.

In GW2, you have almost the opposite thing happening. “Evil” is more a state of mind, and not associated with any one group or race. The Inquest are just too ambitious, the Svanir are just misguided, even the Dragons could be said to be just “doing their job” and keeping magic in check by consuming it when there gets to be to much of it. Good and bad are portrayed in a very different light now that’s largely dependent on individual actions.

Both of the writing styles are fine in their own right, the problem is they are both referring to the same game-world. There’s a clash of styles that don’t jive with each other. Here’s an example of what I mean, it’s from over a year ago in another forum but it relates here. Setting is Middle Earth, say…a hundred years post-Sauron:

Urgoth(Uruk-hai): “Hey there human, you want a ride?”
Aragorn VI(human): “Hail Urgoth, we have travelled many leagues to reach Isengard. Rumors abound there are dragons brooding again up North in the Withered Heath. Do you know of it?”
Urgoth: (rolls eyes)“Umm yeah…we’ve been fighting them for awhile now, human. Anyway, do you want a ride or not?”
Aragorn VI: “Ride? We have our own horses as you can plainly see, orc,” smirking at his entourage, they laugh snidely.
Urgoth sighs, and turns to his engineer, Mitzla, “Do you want to explain it or me?”
Mitzla: snorts, “Hey it was your idea to ask them to come, I could care less.”
Urgoth, turning back to the young King of Gondor, “Anywho…we thought it might be faster to use our zeppelins up on the skydock, but it’s up to you really.”
Aragorn VI: “Zeppelins? Skydock?”
Urgoth, sarcastically slow, points straight up with the lead stick in his hand he was using to jot down notes.
Aragorn VI and his men look up and freeze in awe. A quarter mile above them, three large, steel platforms span out from Orthanc tower. Uruk-hai and orcs can be seen crawling all over each platform, rigging lines and carrying supplies. Huge metal and canvas balloons hover near two of the platforms, dwarfing the tower in size and majesty. The balloons seem to be loading troops, and more balloons can be seen in the distance, floating northwards over the Misty Mountains. “In Elendil’s name! What is this witchcraft and sorcery?!?”
Mitzla snarles and thumbs his mace.
Urgoth: “Easy Mitz…we have to be nice, we’re on the same side now remember?”
Mitzla grunts and walks off, cursing under his breath.
Urgoth: “You shouldn’t insult Mitzla that way, he’s one of our best engineers. And can probably gut you in 2 seconds,” he adds with a straight face. “Well, the last zeppelin leaves at dusk. Let me know if you want a ride. Either way I don’t care.”
Aragorn VI, watching Urgoth walk away, he turns to his captain, “These Uruks are vile creatures, men should not be made to fly as the crow or eagle.”
Gondor Captain, looking up at the zeppelins, “Perhaps sire, but do they serve coffee in those things?”

Does that make any sense to you?

It’s not a question of character point-of-view though, it’s simply the writing style used to in the storyline.

It’s clear what was intended in GW1 but it’s also clear that the writing style of GW2 does turn the style of GW1 into a question of character POV.

A similar thing was done in Warhammer to a lesser extent. Orcs and beastmen and skaven have always been inherently evil because the entire lore behind them has always been inherent evil. But as the lore evolved, we got to depth in their races and we see cause and effect that reaches beyond simple ‘good’ races and evil ones. In fact it may be even more similar to GW2 (just on the other side of the coin) since there really is no “good” race. Just less evil ones.

In GW1 the charr were clearly intended to be marauding beasts on the rampage but we were never given lore that said it was in their nature to be inherently evil. The option to go either way was always open between inherently evil or situationally evil. So the lore of GW2 actually does make the GW1 lore a perspective issue. But for those purists, the Flame legion and the entire shaman cast of GW1 are still painted as (situationally) evil. They just have a bit more depth and detail in the motivation and cause of said evil.

However, none of that confirmation of charr being situationally evil in GW1 absolves the humans of invading charr land and pushing them out of Ascalon 1000 years prior. Nothing can justify it if we are going to measure the playable races with the same ruler. Unless we accept that might makes right is an acceptable general rule.

^

I agree with a lot of that. However, I wouldn’t say they were portrayed as “situationally” evil, just regular evil. Until Nightfall that is, when you meet that one Charr in the Domain of Anguish(can’t remember his name). That’s really our first glimpse of moral ambiguity when it comes to them. And with EotN, that glimpse is obviously expanded into a full-on movement. And you already know my thoughts on staff changes during this time and how that affected the story, Dust.

So, given Prophecies black&white take on them, there’s really no issue with humans pushing the Charr out of Ascalon. It would have been nearly the same thing if it was ogres, grawl, scales, or whatever. The fact that the Charr cultural makeup was changed at a later date doesn’t invalidate the way they were written to begin with, especially with a different staff. Trying to accuse the Ascalonians of pushing out the poor Charr 1k years before is silly because the humans and gods(and writers) had no reason to think killing members of an evil race is a bad thing. That would be like someone writing a book now about how most orcs are really not evil, just pushed into it, then trying to accuse the Numenorians of genocide against orcs in Middle-Earth. That would make zero sense.

Look, a similar thing happened to the Mursaat unfortunately. Pre-WiK they were a much more sinister lot, something to be taken quite seriously if you follow along the storyline plot. During WiK, they are kind of portrayed like common ruffians and criminals, like some bandit that is trying to mug you for liquor money. It greatly diminished their mystique and “fear factor” to point where you can hardly take them seriously. Especially with those silly Peacekeepers they traveled with. It was a bad addition.

I will say this though, I’m not saying turning antagonists into protagonists should never be tried, I’m saying you have to be very careful in how you do that. ANet probably should have at least let the players experience that transition firsthand. The tiny bits we get in EotN doesn’t nearly cut it. It would have both gradually warmed “Charr-haters” hearts to be more accepting, as well made more sense within the overall multi-racial narrative. It’s like ANet expected “human” players to immediately be accepting of the new situation in Ascalon, even though a lot of them came fresh off the old game. Yes, I know, it’s technically 250 years “in-game,” but you know what, it’s only a few weeks or months “out-of-game.”

Bleh, even I’m getting tired of this topic. :/

To clarify, situationally evil still just boils down to evil in the end. It can even be considered worse than inherently evil because it implies more choice in the matter. Similar to WWII Germany. We can’t accuse them of being bred as evil beings but we can identify causes and effects in situations that allowed for the evil of humanity to shine through.

So out of the two choices of GW1, either inherent or situational (because none was clarified), they ended up choosing situational. It doesn’t change the story. It doesn’t change what the charr did. It doesn’t even change what the humans did. All it changes is our sympathies with the alpha history charr because now we can identify with them. All in all, I think our views aren’t that much different. I think we both see the same coin, we just talk about different sides.

But the Charr of GW1 were portrayed as inherently evil…that’s my whole point. It was clarified based on their actions and dialogue in-game. Not presenting a 1st-person point-of-view of a particular enemy does not mean they are still fair game for future good guys. If that’s the case, nearly every evil thing you run across out there has that option: the Stone Summit, the Margonites, the Titans, the Mursaat, heck maybe even Abaddon lol. You can’t create a believable black/white narrative(which is what GW1 was) with that kind of rampant relativity.

The inverse is true as well, GW1 Charr wouldn’t make much sense in this game…they are too simplistic and one-dimensional. They really are two different narratives, whether you’re talking about content, style, or soul.

I’d say not different sides of the same coin, but same sides of different coins. :P

What about their actions or dialog made them inherently evil as opposed to situationally evil? As far as I know, nothing about their lore clarified it in GW1. In Warhammer, we know inherent evil because there are actual evil gods of chaos that spawn evil races. GW1 charr have nothing of the sort to point to any inherent evil. So it was undefined.

It does make them fair game because taking one view from one point in history makes all the difference. WWI Germany>WWII Germany>Present day Germany. Taking WWII view is pretty black and white but doesn’t make them ineligible for sympathy prior to or after WWII. And it all makes sense with out needing thousands of years to explain.

Dustfinger is right.
Almost anything looks black and white if you look at it from one side/perspective – which is exactly what Prophecies did.
In EoTN we got to see it a little bit from the other side as we learnt that hey, the flame legion are kittens and not all Charr think like them.

As for the Mursaat, Stone Summit, Margonites and Abaddon, you actually can look at it from their side and see how it isn’t so straightforward. Yes they’re evil, but that’s only from our perspective. Their actions have justification and any kind of justification is always going to come down to personal morals. There is no objective good and evil, only subjective.

But honestly I think we should putt hat aside because this exact same argument has been had quite a few times in the lore forums…

Again with the real life history? This isn’t real. Whatever the writer of the story conjures up in his mind and lays down in the game is the game reality, not what we think it is based on things that happen on Earth. The creator determines reality. If he/she decides that rocks are made of hard candy, then they are made of hard candy. It’s extremely arrogant to think someone else’s art has to adhere to our reality. The perception of Germans and Germany throughout the 20th century doesn’t have jack squat to do with perceptions of a fictional fantasy race.

And yes, the Charr were absolutely portrayed as inherently evil in Proph. Everything about that story screams it. Just because someone doesn’t come along and slap you in the face and say, “They are to be labeled evil, end of discussion,” doesn’t mean it isn’t so. That was the point of having them there in the first place. They weren’t like the Centaurs for instance, who we saw in the game as merely savages, and not necessarily evil. I have no idea how you don’t see that, you don’t need to be spawned from the bosom of an evil deity to be inherently evil.

As for FlamingFoxx, there is objective evil if the authors say there is. It’s their creation and their world. Whatever real-life constructs we carry with us about morality, truth, choice, freedom, w/e, should be checked at the door when engaging in a fictional fantasy world such as Guild Wars. You either accept the world for what it is, for what it is meant to be, or you don’t accept it at all. And once you do that, you can become a part of it.

The Mursaat, Margonites, etc. aren’t evil from our perspective, their evil from the game’s perspective. That’s an incredibly important difference. You’re right that in EotN they finally provide that different perspective with the Charr. But that didn’t come from the makers of the Guild Wars 1 world, that came from the makers of the Guild Wars 2 world. That expansion was specifically meant to bridge the two games, the devs even said that.

If you take nothing else away from my earnest and pathetic diatribe, take this. The GW2 crew (meaning the staff, the writers, the devs, etc) are not the creators of this world we know as Tyria, they are the inheritors of it. And whatever decisions and/or changes they make to the original narrative should be judged on how accurately or honestly those decisions and changes reflect on the original narrative.

That may seem arrogant of me to think that, but really I’m just trying to hold someone accountable for borrowing someone else’s hard work and reshaping it to fit your own needs. Ebonhawke’s mere existence in the game is almost entirely as a mournful nod to the Ascalonian culture that existed in GW1, and, I suppose, to the players that identified with it. There won’t ever be any Ascalonian revival or renaissance. Not because it’s not logistically possible within the game-world, but because it’s not in ANet’s best interest to do so. Period.

The sooner people who care about this issue realize that, the better off they will be. And I’ll eat my words if I’m wrong.

Nothing about GW1 lore specified inherently evil over situationally evil. Whether slapped in the face or not. So the assumption that the charr were inherently evil was only an assumption your part. All we saw was evil. Plain and simple. It wasn’t objective. there wasn’t a gray area. But it also wasn’t inherent or situational. It was undefined.

It doesn’t have to specify it, the game assumes it. Does the game specify that grass is green and water is clear? Does it specify which end of the sword I’m supposed to point at a scale? Do you truly think they need to hand-hold us through every inch of storyline experience in order to validate something? I don’t know about you, but I’m certainly grateful the writers didn’t feel the need to insult my intelligence by giving me zero room to judge the sights and sounds they created on my screen.

You can think that if you want to, but I can’t think of anything, besides GW2 development, that would put any doubt as to the distinct portrayal of the Charr being one of the “inherently evil bad guys” of Guild Wars. There wasn’t a lack of evidence for it, they just didn’t feel the need to implicitly state it. Why would they have to? A 4th grader could figure that out.

I disagree, because of a point you’ve already made- GW1’s narrative didn’t involve perspective or point of view. There was no look at the inner workings of the other side, no perspective- nothing by which to judge rather the deeds we saw were “inherent” or “situational”. When the other side is fully opaque, as the charr were in Prophecies, neither term is applicable, as there is simply nothing to judge by… save any biases the player brings to the table, which is the very thing you are arguing we shouldn’t do, Obsidian.

The writers/humanity didn’t care what the reason for the evil was. All they wrote/saw was “evil”. Nothing in the game assumes inherent or situational because no one in or out of the game cared why the charr wanted them eradicated. They only cared about surviving it and fighting back.

The GW1 staff wrote the what. The GW2 writers concerned themselves with the why because the GW1 writers left the why completely open in that reguard. Some of us may not agree with the GW2 writers because it doesn’t fit with our assumptions but we can’t say that it doesn’t make sense. We also can’t say the GW1 writers were against it simply because they didn’t address it in any way, shape or form.

So a fourth grader can figure out inherently evil over situationaly evil. that’s fine if there is any evidence at all supporting that. But there isn’t because it was left completely unaddressed. Unless your opinion is that any evil automatically starts out being inherently evil unless otherwise stated. But that’s just silly. And extremely limiting to any artist who considers creating evil in any form.

Actually, not really. They give you the picture of not just what it is they created, but also oodles of clues as to what they want you to think it is. It’s not player bias I’m arguing for, it’s designer bias. The perspective and point-of-view comes from the authors of the material. They are the narrators, not the player or anything else. They establish a relationship with you based on gameplay experience. They are essentially inviting you to participate in the shared product of their imagination. But it’s still their imagination we are witnessing, not ours.

Now, if they had to spell out every single nuance and subtlety in the game for us, that would be one seriously boring, not to mention insulting, game. There’s plenty for us to examine and interpret in the game. The shape of the trees, the architecture style of a roof, the way the sun shines through the clouds, even the music clues us in as to what the authors are trying to say at a given moment. If we don’t figure out what something is supposed to mean, or we interpret it in a way different than what was intended, then it’s either our fault for not being smart enough, or their fault for not being forthright enough.

It’s a lot like a man and a woman dancing. The man is the game authors and we are the woman. He leads us step by step through the song(the story). If we don’t follow his lead, or he doesn’t lead us well enough, then that part of the dance is lost to us in the song. Now you could just dance however the hell you want and claim that’s how you thought the song was leading you. But you would only be right unto yourself, not to him or anything else.

In the end it’s his song your dancing to, not yours.

Great. Let’s dance to the authors tune. So ANY evidence at all provided by the authors that hint at “inherent” over “situational” would be appreciated. You keep saying it’s there. Show me. Because all I see from them is undefined evil.

Lol, don’t be so literal.

I can try to gather information through wiki and youtube I suppose, but I can’t play either game right now. GW2 fried my motherboard last month. :/

I’ll save you the time. It’s not there. It’s not there because they didn’t concern themselves with that question when they created the world. It was a lore hole from the beginning that was filled later by others.

edit: As I said, the only thing that could hint at inherent over situational is the individual habit of assuming inherent over situational in undefined circumstances.

I think the discourse here has gone too far in terms of what exactly is the historical motivations and intentions of the humans and charr in Ascalon which is of course an important foundation to form opinions of what the future shape of Ascalon might look like. And in particular how this future will affect the influence of Humanity as a whole in Tyria (Ascalon/Kryta/Orr).

Please note: I am leaving out at this time Cantha , Elona (and the Northern Shiverpeaks – to a slightly lesser extent) within the GW2 world.

As in seems there is no confirmed word as to when or if ArenaNet will ever be re-including into the life of our characters and their peoples their lost heritage. I think I can speak for most that this is one of the most cherished wish of all loyal GW fans.

They can still be inherently evil without knowing why. Inherent simply means it’s a defined characteristic of something, it doesn’t ask for an explanation. And yes, they do imply the Charr are inherently evil. You don’t need a black & white statement to believe that, it’s evident throughout the game. You’re right, they don’t tell you why they are evil, that doesn’t mean they aren’t supposed to be viewed as such. You’re taking an unneeded lack of clarity on the author’s part for the basis of your entire viewpoint. It was unneeded because the events, dialogue, situations, visuals. etc. that are in the game all lead you to that conclusion. If you didn’t get that conclusion, that’s wishful thinking on your part.

ANet never told me why the Mursaat were so evil, therefore they can’t really be considered evil since I can’t prove it. <— nonsense