Guild Wars 2

This is a joke thread. Don’t take things here too seriously. :P

Ebonhawke was a very strong fortress that withstood waves after waves of Charr attacks for over a hundred years. But with the new invention of tanks, airships and underground digging vehicles, it is no longer up to date. The walls are no longer enough to keep the people safe.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stronghold_of_Ebonhawke

I recommend the follow 3 upgrades, to improve the security of Ebonhawke:

1) 4 layers of trenches, anti tank trenches and pillboxes outside of the wall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_warfare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_trench
http://rossettwwi.wikispaces.com/Trenches
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillbox_

The most direct threat to Ebonhawke are Charr tanks with their huge guns. They must be stopped. The best way is a system of trenches to slow and delay them, so the defenders can destroy them by artillery fire. They would also weaken the enemies enough until a counter attack can be performed.

There are usually 3 layers in a trench system. However since Ebonhawke is the capital city and last line of defence, we would need 4 layers of trenches.

2) 100 meters deep moat just outside of the walls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moat

It was common for a fortress to be surrounded by a moat. It slows down enemy advance because they need to construct bridges while under enemy fire.

The Ebonhawke moat would be different. It will be dug much deeper than a standard moat. This was done to counter Dredge underground vehicles. At 100 meters, the approaching Dredge vehicles would often break though the moat by mistake. The vehicles would then sink to the bottom of the moat, no longer operational. The water in the moat would proceed to flood and drown all marching troops behind these vehicles.

Some Dredge vehicles might dig deeper than 100 meters to avoid the moat. But since these vehicles cannot climb vertically (not enough horsepower from a coat powered engine), they will have a very hard/slow time breaching the inside of the city. The angle of approach would also be very sharp upwards, making it difficult for the marching troops that follow these vehicles. These troops would be exhausted by the time they climb these 100 meters of incline, when they face the fresh troops from the defenders inside.

3) 100 meters high anti-air and artillery flak towers just behind the walls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_tower

This is the ultimate defensive construction to ensure the safety of the city. 6 gigantic flak towers, 100 meters tall each, will be constructed slight behind the already overwhelming tall walls of Ebonhawke. These towers are even higher than the walls themselves. Another flak tower would be build right in the center of the city, to give support to the other 6 towers as needed. So that’s 7 flak towers in total.

These tower would act as defence against enemy air ships. At a height of 90-100 meters, the 75mm anti-aircraft guns mounted on the top levels can easily shoot down any approaching airships. This makes landing troops inside the city and carpet bombing nearly suicidal. These AA guns would be supported by friendly human airships inside defending the city.

Slightly below the top floor, the flak tower would be filled with artillery guns facing the outside of the wall. They give an extra firing layer against the foes outside of the walls. Foes stuck in the trenches and no man’s land outside would be constantly bombarded by these artillery guns. Charr tanks’ weaker top armor are fully exposed to these guns at a height of almost 75-90 meters.

Should the enemy breach the walls, there are even more artillery guns facing the inside of the city than outside. At a height of 25-75 meters, they can shoot almost anywhere inside the city. So any foes stuck or slow down by the inner city defences would be constantly bombard by these artillery pieces.

If you are wondering if ancient people can build things this high:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torre_della_Lanterna

I see you’re once again trying to bring in modern warfare into a science fantasy setting which is unlike modern warfare. And though you’re joking, I think I shall take it seriously in a jesting manner…

1) Wouldn’t make sense because, until the ceasefire, the charr were right on the walls, even before there were tanks (which are relatively new anyways). The Vanguard wouldn’t ever have had the time to make said trenches. They had parties outside the walls, of course, but such scouts and saboteurs wouldn’t be capable of digging the necessary trenches.

2) Wouldn’t work – nor be reasonable – for the same reason as above (and wouldn’t be reasonable because the charr didn’t send infantry to the city – in fact, there was only one charr who made it inside Ebonhawke until recently – not counting the prisoners).

And as for 3) … I don’t think they have the technology (nor need) for anti-air weaponry. Guns were originated by the charr and are only hand-crafted by other races, originating via reverse engineering or trade with the charr (so for humans, trade only could occur via trading with other races who had traded with the charr).

Now, if you mean these things should be added modernly, well… Again, no reason for the trenches or moat since they’re no longer facing a war – unless peace negotiations fail or the Dragonbrand or Ogres push much further than they are (keep in mind that distance we can travel in-game is unlike travel as it would be in actuality). But the AA guns would make sense, as much for any other place though.

@ Konig

Yes I mean a war in the future, when Ebonhawke will come under a combined ground, underground and air attack at the same time. It is true that now humans are at peace with the Charr. But who knows how long this peace would last? Ascalonians must be ready for Charr War II. :P

These constructions will take a long time to complete. If peace talk breaks down, it will be too late to construct them. So they have to be built now during peace times.

If this peace with the Charrs by some miracle lasts, these constructions are still useful against dragon minions, dragon lieutenants and elder dragon themselves.

As much as I embrace the peace between Charr and humans, I have to admit that the OP’s suggestions are prudent. It’s why even modern day allies spy on each other. As someone once said (unfortunately I can’t remember who it was), “They may be our allies now, but we can’t count on them being our allies forever.”

CHIPS.6018:

@ Konig

These constructions will take a long time to complete. If peace talk breaks down, it will be too late to construct them. So they have to be built now during peace times.

This creates problem. Why would the Charr allow the humans to start building up massive defenses in an area which is contested between the two nations? In the eyes of realpolitik, which is mostly how the Charr view of IP (I get the impression of) an act to try to alter the status-quo on the border would be a sign of aggression.
And why would the humans start building up defenses which could ruin a peace talk?

fenre.7891:

CHIPS.6018:

@ Konig

These constructions will take a long time to complete. If peace talk breaks down, it will be too late to construct them. So they have to be built now during peace times.

This creates problem. Why would the Charr allow the humans to start building up massive defenses in an area which is contested between the two nations? In the eyes of realpolitik, which is mostly how the Charr view of IP (I get the impression of) an act to try to alter the status-quo on the border would be a sign of aggression.
And why would the humans start building up defenses which could ruin a peace talk?

The Charrs themselves are building up giant tanks and other weapons in the Black Citadal. Their “excuse” was that these are to be used against the Elder Dragons. It will be the same excuse that Ebonhawke will use. The Elder Dragons and its minions may very well attack Ebonhawke next.

Attack ebonhawke AGAIN. Kralk already stopped by once to say hi, it would be a prudent thing to do even if for no other reasons.

CHIPS.6018

The Charrs themselves are building up giant tanks and other weapons in the Black Citadal. Their “excuse” was that these are to be used against the Elder Dragons. It will be the same excuse that Ebonhawke will use. The Elder Dragons and its minions may very well attack Ebonhawke next.

Yeah. The easiest way would be to do it under the justification of protecting Ebonhawke should Kralkatorrik decide to move back north. Upgrading the weapons of infantry can also be done under the justification of upgrading the Ebonhawke army to better face the Dragon’s minions. (And it could even be true!)

Of course, you can bet that the Charr aren’t likely to be completely ignorant of this. They’ll have sequestered their own Ash Legion spies inside Ebonhawke to keep them informed of what’s really going on. It’s all part of the game of espionage. As long as the peace holds, this status quo is fine. In time, perhaps the two nations will develop a genuine trust in each other, and render war unpalatable. (Best way to do this would be societal assimilation. More humans living in Charr lands, more Charr living in Ebonhawke etc. Maybe even Charr/human marriages? )

Ebonhawke should grow to become New Ascalon.
That’s it.

I support any improvement to Ebonhawke. The fact that it depends on Kryta upsets me.

Edusd.7893:

Attack ebonhawke AGAIN. Kralk already stopped by once to say hi, it would be a prudent thing to do even if for no other reasons.

It was an excuse. It doesn’t matter if the Elder Dragons actually attacks or not. Politics my friend. ^^

Was just saying, its a valid excuse. ;-)

Another thing that should be done: Conscription. Not everyone have to be on active duty all the time. But every civilian inside Ebonhawke must be fully trained, so in times of need they can defend their city.

Only the very old and very young should make use of the Last Stand Shelter in times of war.

I’m quite certain that Ebonhawke would already have mandatory military service in place. Almost all small nations surrounded by potential threats have similar schemes in place (e.g. Singapore, Israel).

With regards to making Ebonhawke self-sufficient, it’s not currently possible given the lands they hold, but if they manage to pacify the hostile Ogres and Harpies in Fields of Ruin, they should be able to establish enough farmland and resources to become self-sufficient with food, and still have resources to trade. They’d never become a nation at the level of Kryta (let alone an Empire like Cantha), but they’d be able to stand on their own two feet at least.

Your forgetting the ‘small’ problem of the Dragonbrand and the corruption that it spreads. The truth is the lands surrounding Ebonhawke and especially in the area immediately surrounding the Serenity Temple site is toxic to all life, not to mention unhealthy….

The Dragonbrand doesn’t appear to be spreading though. All life within it, and anything that wanders into it for too long, gets corrupted, and the Branded go out and wreak havoc, but I haven’t seen any info that the Brand itself is growing larger.

Modern Guildwars 2: Modern Warfare

Funny thing is, the technology to do something like this actually exists within the game.

CHIPS.6018:

fenre.7891:

CHIPS.6018:

@ Konig

These constructions will take a long time to complete. If peace talk breaks down, it will be too late to construct them. So they have to be built now during peace times.

This creates problem. Why would the Charr allow the humans to start building up massive defenses in an area which is contested between the two nations? In the eyes of realpolitik, which is mostly how the Charr view of IP (I get the impression of) an act to try to alter the status-quo on the border would be a sign of aggression.
And why would the humans start building up defenses which could ruin a peace talk?

The Charrs themselves are building up giant tanks and other weapons in the Black Citadal. Their “excuse” was that these are to be used against the Elder Dragons. It will be the same excuse that Ebonhawke will use. The Elder Dragons and its minions may very well attack Ebonhawke next.

Still, I don’t see why the Charr should allow this. Anti tank trenches, which was your first point, is directly aimed at counter the Charr. Defenses directly aimed to counter the threat of the elder dragons would be a more important and also the most useful way of defending Ebonhawke (anti tank trenches would be no use here). Anti-air inside Ebonhawke, your 3 point, would make sense though.

Trying to bolster their defenses in Ebonhawke the way you said would lead to the classical security dilemma, as the Charr would not exactly know the intentions of the humans with the defenses. It could lead to an arms race, and then the question the human leaders have to ask themselves is: what would happen if the Charr took countermeasures, and then started to take action to counter the defenses in Ebonhawke? Could this lead the Charr to be more aggressive in future diplomatic engagements?

I my view, the possible gains from a bolster of the defenses in Ebonhawke do not outweigh the possible dangers of it. Why in the world would the humans try to start (or contribute to, as the Charr is always in an arms race because of how their government is structured) an arms race with the Charr, which would probably be the outcome?

They don’t have to call it anti tank trenches. They can just call them trenches, which would be useful against Elder Dragon minions. There are always ways around it. Its just politics.

At the end of the day, humans are only building defensive constructions. The Charrs are building offensive war machines. Who is the aggressor here?

CHIPS.6018:

They don’t have to call it anti tank trenches. They can just call them trenches, which would be useful against Elder Dragon minions. There are always ways around it. Its just politics.

At the end of the day, humans are only building defensive constructions. The Charrs are building offensive war machines. Who is the aggressor here?

You’re missing the point. Since the Charr could never know all of the humans intentions, building defenses in a contested area would trigger a security dilemma which would lead the humans to contribute to an arms race.

There is a difference in Charr society and the human society. The Charr don’t care if they are the aggressors or not. As I said earlier, the Charr society is in many ways always in an arms race almost with their selves. Questions like you asked is therefore useless in a world of realpolitik. What I argued was that looking at it from the humans in Tyria, the possible gains from this is not enough to actually take the risks. It does not make diplomatic sense.

What they could do, was to invite Charr engineers and make them part of the building of the defenses directly aimed at the minions of the elder dragons. That could mitigate the effect of a possible security dilemma. However, it could trigger the spiral of arms race as well.

Politics is not just politics; it’s never that easy.

Fenre do you really believe that this peace with the Charr will last beyond the death of the last Elder Dragon?

The way I see it there is no risk. No matter what the humans do, the Charrs must wait until the defeat of the final Elder Dragon before fighting against the humans again. They got no choice, no matter how angry they are at the humans.

USA and USSR were friends during WWII. That’s how it works. Politics.

If people like me were wrong and this peace does last, the defensive work in Ebonhawke doesn’t hurt anybody. Defensive constructions cannot be used to attack. They will never be a threat to the Charrs, if they keep their promise of peace.

It’s a while since I’ve been working with Mearsheimer, Waltz and other inside the realism-tradition, so I’m a little rusty (I’m more inside the issues around democratization and war-theories in IR). However, there is no doubt in my mind that the writers inside the GW-universe have this kind of world in mind when writing about the Charr-human-relations (not consciously).

First of all, there is never peace in this setting. There is only armistice. “Peace” in the sense we understand it (and like social constructivists and liberalists see it) will probably never exist in Tyria as it is now, because we are not only talking about states here, but also different races. In that sense, no, I don’t think there will ever be peace between the Charr and the humans as it is now, and therefore they are also in an intense security dilemma. I do believe however that a security dilemma is possible to escape and that a longer armistice is possible. War is never inevitable, not even in a Hobbsian world.

However, defensive build-up is a threat and it would be a dangerous game to play. That’s one of the main points in the Security Dilemma: “In international politics, however, one state’s gain in security often inadvertently threatens other” (Jervis 1978, see page 170 for examples). There are many ways cooperation and escapes from the Security Dilemma are achieved in a realist world which is far more effective than a defensive build-up for a weaker military state, which the humans definitively are.

How humans will react to Charr build-up is therefore an interesting thought. Your conclusion that it should lead to a defensive build-up is not wrong in itself, but it would not solve the problem. In my view, it would be suicide for the humans since they don’t have the capability to compete military with a society like the Charr. Again, there are other ways out of this problem, which has been discussed in length.

Another interesting thought is that Charr build-up would lead to balancing from the other races. A military hegemony by the Charr is not possible, since that would be a direct threat to the other races.

In all this, the most interesting development in International Politics in Tyria in recent years and also a way out of the Security Dilemma that exists is the Pact. The Pact could actually lead Tyria in a new area of IP. It could take Tyria out of the world of realism, to a more world of liberalism. If the Pact develop, it could mitigate the Security Dilemma between the humans and the Charr in a big way, in the same way the ECSC did. The Pact is one way that Tyria could go towards a deeper peace. However, it would not be easy.

PS: “USA and USSR were friends during WWII. That’s how it works. Politics”. That statement is way too simple. There are literally thousands of research articles and books dedicated to causes and escapes from the Cold War. Your “conclusion” here that the only outcome from the Security and the Prisoners Dilemma that existed after the Second World War was the arms race is actually not politics. It’s just history