Guild Wars 2

This began as a reply in another thread, but it wasn’t really relevant there and opens up a totally separate can of worms, so I thought it deserved its own topic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

snip

It’s true that in the past, Elder Dragon activity has not just been limited to Tyria, for example when the Great Destroyer first awoke there were Destroyers in Elona and as far south as Cantha. I’ve not heard anything about artefacts of Jormag in Cantha, but I’d be interested to hear about that.

I disagree that Zhaitan’s influence wouldn’t have been in continental Tyria, since he is present in the dwarven legends, the karka knew to avoid Orr because it was the domain of an Elder Dragon, and he must have spent some time in Orr at some point because that’s where he went to sleep! I don’t know how you square this up with the fact that Glint was freed from control there (although I do remember something saying that it was the gods who bought all these artefacts to Orr, so maybe the Altar of Glaust was originally somewhere else?).

But it is a good point that dragon activity, although centred on the northern continent, may have spread beyond its borders. But then we should consider it odd that all, or even most of the Elder Dragons we fight have had such a major presence in Tyria. Primordus, Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan all slept in Tyria, and Jormag has made at least one physical appearance, as well as having arguably the biggest domain in Tyria out of all the Elder Dragons. We’re not sure yet how, but Mordremoth seems to be interwoven with the lore of Tyria in some important way. The only dragon who seems to be keeping its distance is the deep sea dragon, and that’s probably only due to Zhaitan and the dead fleets.

But this creates a problem. As we know the world is pretty huge, and the presence of so many of the Elder Dragons in one place begs the question: why?

A few possible answers that come to mind are:

1. Elder Dragons are a phenomenon unique to Tyria, and the areas surrounding it. This is unlikely to me, since the magical ley lines span the globe, and the Elder Dragons have been made out to be some primordial force integral to the smooth operation of the world (so what happens when we kill one, btw?), so there’d be no reason they’d be specific to one geographic region.
2. There is something special about Tyria, which makes the Dragons centre their attacks there. Sure, it’s possible, but we have nothing so far to suggest it, so like the first answer above, it doesn’t seem likely.
3. Probably the most interesting idea: that there are far more than six Elder Dragons, possibly over a hundred overall, looking at the size of the world. If there are Elder Dragons in Tyria, then in the absence of any evidence to the contrary we must assume that there are Elder Dragons throughout the world, or otherwise explain why they are only in Tyria.

The third idea is the one I’d like to focus on (although if anyone has any evidence of the specialness of Tyria, that’d also be great). The most obvious problem I can see with it are the mentions of there being specifically six Elder Dragons, for example by Scholar Trueclaw. I think this could be explained by assuming that, like in modern times, the presence of the Elder Dragons isolated the continent of Tyria from the rest of the world, meaning that news of other Elder Dragons would never have reached Tyria.

The third idea also gives the most potential for expansion, I think, since the awakening of Dragons in, say, Cantha or Elona, would provide a good pretext for the player traveling there.

Tyria is the biggest continent right? Its possible that the other nations have only one or two dragons, or are under attack by the DSD, which would logically have the greatest sphere of influence because of the amount of sea on the planet. Or maybe theres some reason dragons keep away from there (Cantha’s plague?).

Zomaarwat.3912:

Tyria is the biggest continent right? Its possible that the other nations have only one or two dragons, or are under attack by the DSD, which would logically have the greatest sphere of influence because of the amount of sea on the planet. Or maybe theres some reason dragons keep away from there (Cantha’s plague?).

Tyria’s certainly the biggest playable continent, but in terms of landmass it makes up a tiny fraction of the world (see attachment). If you imagine that there are six Elder Dragons in the small square that makes up the playable GW2 game world, then by the arguments above there’s likely to be three or four in each of Cantha and Elona, and that’s not to say anything of the rest of the world. Having a second look, perhaps over a hundred Elder Dragons is a bit of an overestimate, maybe closer to 40 or 50.

On a less-related note, do we know anything about the Elder Dragons’ relationships to other worlds, and the Mists? I know they are supposed to be something integral to Tyria, but Jormag has been seen using portals to the Mists to summon Icebrood, and the Nornbear also had the power to flee into a “Spirit World” that probably refers to the Mists. And if the theory of Scarlet’s energy probes looking for ley lines is correct, then magic runs through the Mists just as much as it runs through Tyria, and would provide a limitless source of power for the Elder Dragons.

For starters the DSD would have problems with the Jade Sea

Didn’t the end of Factions (or maybe somewhere else I read) say that the jade sea/stone forest kurzick place was/were returning back to normal after we defeated shiro? also is the jade sea an inland sea?

Edit: Nvm I looked at the map that was posted above.

Tamias.7059:

A few possible answers that come to mind are:

1. Elder Dragons are a phenomenon unique to Tyria, and the areas surrounding it. This is unlikely to me, since the magical ley lines span the globe, and the Elder Dragons have been made out to be some primordial force integral to the smooth operation of the world (so what happens when we kill one, btw?), so there’d be no reason they’d be specific to one geographic region.

Perhaps the Elder Dragons function similar to the Weapons of Final Fantasy VII they respond to threats to the planet’s very survival. Perhaps the abuse of magic by the races of that cycle triggers the activation of the Elder Dragons.

If this is how they work then the effects of the Searing, Jade Wind and finally Nightfall may have been the trigger for their awakening. Since the Asura are prominent users of magic and the Charr have discovered gunpowder perhaps the Elder Dragons have come to view the races of the Tyrian continent the largest of the threats to the world’s safety.

for the record, that “world map” is the texture used on the order of whispers map, and we’ve had dev confirmation that it is not an accurate representation of the world.

While I wouldn’t mind there being Elder Dragons elsewhere, so long as ANet could keep making them unique, there is one, very compelling reason for Tyria being “special”, and that is the account of how the last rise ended- the seers concentrated all the magic remaining in the world into the Bloodstone, sealing it away and starving the dragons into submission. That means that near the end of the last rise, all of the dragons’ remaining food could be found in only one place, which by all indications was on the continent of Tyria, and so any of them that knew or could figure it out would have no choice but to congregate on Tyria, and if they starved to hibernation while searching the continent for it, it would account for their presence their today.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

While I wouldn’t mind there being Elder Dragons elsewhere, so long as ANet could keep making them unique, there is one, very compelling reason for Tyria being “special”, and that is the account of how the last rise ended- the seers concentrated all the magic remaining in the world into the Bloodstone, sealing it away and starving the dragons into submission. That means that near the end of the last rise, all of the dragons’ remaining food could be found in only one place, which by all indications was on the continent of Tyria, and so any of them that knew or could figure it out would have no choice but to congregate on Tyria, and if they starved to hibernation while searching the continent for it, it would account for their presence their today.

while the bloodstone argument is a good one as to why they’re all converging to tyria, it is not the way the dragons were defeated, at least to the best of my knowledge. starvation is what awakens them, they go back to sleep when they’re full. so your reasoning there is backwards.

on a side note, i always found it funny that no one, not the dwarves, not the seers, not anyone, bothered telling the humans that hey, there’s a giant god-eating dragon under that peninsula your country is on. “oh and charrs? you might want to stay away from that mountain. it’s not what it looks like”. hell, i thought the norn not getting any warning was fine and all, because 1- they kinda lived far from everyone else, and they’re too individual to get the information properly spread out, and 2- they’d just see it as a challenge and await eagerly the day to fight this dragon, but humans? if you tell them there’s a god-eating dragon there, the humans (and their gods) would get the hell out of orr.

I’d assume that the Elder races didn’t know where the dragons went, or if they did their descendents had forgotten by the time the humans showed up. By the little the Durmand Priory managed to piece together, it seems that by the end the four races that hadn’t fled or died were reduced to huddling in some corner of the world under Glint’s protection, which wouldn’t be conducive to reconnaissance into the heart of dragon territory, and as one of the scholars in the Priory laments, they didn’t leave much behind in the way of lasting records.

You do make a good point about the Bloodstone, though… I’m going to have to research that more.

It is rather likely that they had no idea about the locations of the Elder Dragons (the Asura did build their kitten transportation-system around and used the power of Primordus to power it after all.)

i was always of the impression that the elder races defeated the dragons, rather than wait for them to finish their party. otherwise, the dragons would have eventually reached the bloodstone, and who knows what would have happened then.

I figured Glint would’ve hidden the bloodstone along with the races.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i was always of the impression that the elder races defeated the dragons, rather than wait for them to finish their party. otherwise, the dragons would have eventually reached the bloodstone, and who knows what would have happened then.

If they had defeated the Dragons why would Glint need to hide them? And if they had defeated the Dragons it is quite likely that it would have been much easier to defeat them again this time around, especially since most of the races from back then still lives in Tyria.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i was always of the impression that the elder races defeated the dragons, rather than wait for them to finish their party. otherwise, the dragons would have eventually reached the bloodstone, and who knows what would have happened then.

Glint hid the races as well as the bloodstone. ^^ While they were hiding, the dragons went to sleep, effectively “disappearing” as no one was around to know where they’d entered hibernation.

lordkrall.7241:

If they had defeated the Dragons why would Glint need to hide them? And if they had defeated the Dragons it is quite likely that it would have been much easier to defeat them again this time around, especially since most of the races from back then still lives in Tyria.

it could’ve been associated with forgotten knowledge. 10.000 years is a lot of time. hell, we don’t know half the kitten we were doing 5 thousand years ago, much less 10.

but it seems like that’s estabilished somewhere in lore, so it’s pointless for me to push my side of the argument. could’ve sworn that glint was only “converted” after kralk had been lulled back to sleep (hence why chasing after her was the very first thing he did upon waking up, rather than something he did before going to sleep). either way i blame it on no one wanting to do the tougher arah paths with me >.>

Thalador.4218:

Glint hid the races as well as the bloodstone. ^^ While they were hiding, the dragons went to sleep, effectively “disappearing” as no one was around to know where they’d entered hibernation.

if she hid the bloodstone, then how were the dragons attracted by it? they wouldn’t be able to see or smell or sense the bloodstone in any way (or else it wouldn’t be hidden well enough to protect the elder races)

And it’s still possible you have it right- we know so frustratingly little about the last cycle, including how long the dragons were awake for, and rather the dragons all went to sleep at the same time. I’m inclined to say “a very long time” and “no”, as those are the answers that best reconcile Glint’s line in EoD with what we learn in-game.

Which assumes the devs don’t simply play the “she was lying the whole time!” handwave again.

The bloodstone bit may well have been process of elimination. “Someone’s taken all our food, and the only fleshlings left that could do that are in the vicinity of x location.”

BrunoBRS.5178:

if she hid the bloodstone, then how were the dragons attracted by it? they wouldn’t be able to see or smell or sense the bloodstone in any way (or else it wouldn’t be hidden well enough to protect the elder races)

You just answered your own question.

Thalador.4218:

BrunoBRS.5178:

if she hid the bloodstone, then how were the dragons attracted by it? they wouldn’t be able to see or smell or sense the bloodstone in any way (or else it wouldn’t be hidden well enough to protect the elder races)

You just answered your own question.

i don’t see how? if she sought to protect the elder races from the dragons, she wouldn’t have put them with the one thing the dragons want the most, at least not without making sure it’s untraceable and impossible to find. but if that was the case, then the dragons wouldn’t have converged to tyria… so… what exactly did i answer there?

Tamias.7059:

It’s true that in the past, Elder Dragon activity has not just been limited to Tyria, for example when the Great Destroyer first awoke there were Destroyers in Elona and as far south as Cantha. I’ve not heard anything about artefacts of Jormag in Cantha, but I’d be interested to hear about that.

Clarification:

• We have no clue if the quests leading from Factions or Nightfall to Eye of the North is canon lore. Keep in mind 2 things: 1) the second half is the same for all three, so the tunnels in the first half would have to be spanning all the way from northern Cantha/eastern Istan to southern Kryta. Doesn’t work logically. 2) The quests leading from NF to Proph/Factions has been confirmed non-canon, as it’s just a means to mechanically allow NF characters to go to Prophecies/Factions; the same can be presumed about the Fact/NF quests to EotN and the Fact quest to Proph.

There are no known artifacts of Jormag in Cantha – if you’re refering to my mention of dwarven relics in Cantha, I refer to this:

Relics of a mysterious race, possibly an offshoot of the Deldrimor dwarves, have been uncovered in this productive jade mine. Though not as large or strategically vital as the enormous Jade Quarry, the Aurios Mines are of great importance to historians and scholars.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Aurios_Mines_%28outpost%29

Tamias.7059:

I disagree that Zhaitan’s influence wouldn’t have been in continental Tyria, since he is present in the dwarven legends, the karka knew to avoid Orr because it was the domain of an Elder Dragon, and he must have spent some time in Orr at some point because that’s where he went to sleep! I don’t know how you square this up with the fact that Glint was freed from control there (although I do remember something saying that it was the gods who bought all these artefacts to Orr, so maybe the Altar of Glaust was originally somewhere else?).

Firstly, on the Altar of Glaust being moved: that’s a REALLY huge building, built in full in the design of Arah and Orr. Furthermore:
Warden Illyra: The spell requires a location near here. We need to find a likely place to replicate the experiment.

I wouldn’t call a moved artifact a “location”

Warden Illyra: This is the altar. It was here, before the human gods came, that Glint was freed of the Elder Dragons.

She says “it was here” – again, you would not say this for a movable chunk of stone. (Rather you’d say “it was on here”).

Secondly, while I forgot about the mention of Zhaitan in dwarven legends – with the hints that they were spread elsewhere, it’s not too unlikely. And yes, Zhaitan did fall asleep there. I was not denying that he was never there, but rather that he showed up there at the end of the reign – after the Bloodstone was created. That’s most likely, IMO. Otherwise, the Forgotten would be freeing Glaust/Glint in the middle of his domain, which just seems unlikely.

The karka knowing him is actually further evidence, imo, to Zhaitan having been elsewhere. The statement of Zomorros implies the karka went to the shores of Elona last rising, given that is the native land of the djinn. Mind you, he mentions that the continents looked different then as well, so it’s possible that the world didn’t look anything like we do today (I find this doubtful unless the Six Gods did some major terraforming – 11,000 years is not enough for major tectonic plate movements) thus it’d be hard to say what was on continental Tyria and what wasn’t. Either way, this knowledge hints to me that Zhaitan primarily reigned in Elona during the previous rise.

Tamias.7059:

he Elder Dragons have been made out to be some primordial force integral to the smooth operation of the world (so what happens when we kill one, btw?)

Technically, they haven’t. We don’t know what happens when magic rises too much, or if it would even move once the Elder Dragons are all gone. They are the cause of the magic’s rise and fall. Though Angel said that they balance the world’s magic, nothing about them hints that this is anything beyond animals adapting to their ecosystem and keeping it in balance.

Tamias.7059:

1. There is something special about Tyria, which makes the Dragons centre their attacks there. Sure, it’s possible, but we have nothing so far to suggest it, so like the first answer above, it doesn’t seem likely.

Actually, we do have something to suggest it, as I mentioned in the post you snipped-quoted me: the Bloodstone.

This could also explain why the DSD is not interested in Tyria – it has the krait obelisks, which are said to be akin to the Bloodstone.

Tamias.7059:

The most obvious problem I can see with it are the mentions of there being specifically six Elder Dragons, for example by Scholar Trueclaw. I think this could be explained by assuming that, like in modern times, the presence of the Elder Dragons isolated the continent of Tyria from the rest of the world, meaning that news of other Elder Dragons would never have reached Tyria.

Actually, the issue is similar but different. Trueclaw could be written off as “incomplete records of just the previous rise.” But there’s records of multiple cycles of the Elder Dragons:

->Have you checked ancient creation myths?
As a matter of fact, I’m pursuing that line of inquiry now. In jotun stela writings, we’ve found references to a sextet of “swallowers” who are said to have consumed the world several times over.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Caterin
Multiple rises, but only six mentioned. Creates a much stronger case for “no more than six.”

However, to counter this argument: Kuunavang. She has, on two occasions at least, been put on par to Glint – both before and after (one each) the reveal of Glint’s champion-of-Kralkatorrik status. She wouldn’t really have an elemental tie to any known Elder Dragon, implying a seventh. Common theory places said seventh to being sky/air/star related.

Tamias.7059:

On a less-related note, do we know anything about the Elder Dragons’ relationships to other worlds, and the Mists? I know they are supposed to be something integral to Tyria, but Jormag has been seen using portals to the Mists to summon Icebrood, and the Nornbear also had the power to flee into a “Spirit World” that probably refers to the Mists. And if the theory of Scarlet’s energy probes looking for ley lines is correct, then magic runs through the Mists just as much as it runs through Tyria, and would provide a limitless source of power for the Elder Dragons.

Thus far, the Mists seem immune to the Elder Dragons – perhaps immune is the wrong word, but perhaps not. The Cathedral of Silence is said to be “steeped heavy in the Mists” (or some such wording), and also stated to be the least corrupted of all of Orr. Jormag, for all we know, only has access to the Mists because of the norn he corrupted (arguably could be the same for Zhaitan pulling souls from the Mists – that his minions do it, not himself).

Shadowbane.7109:

For starters the DSD would have problems with the Jade Sea

All evidence points to the DSD being in the deepest part of the Unending Ocean – or at least awakening there. The Jade Sea is not where the DSD is.

BrunoBRS.5178:

for the record, that “world map” is the texture used on the order of whispers map, and we’ve had dev confirmation that it is not an accurate representation of the world.

As stated in another thread:

What was confirmed is that the in-game globe is not an accurate representation. However, though the globe uses this texture, they do not line up. The globe seems to only show a small portion of the texture, with it wrapped around a few times over. Cantha, for example in the globe, is directly linked to another continent where it shouldn’t be (via Shing Jea).

The accuracy of the texture is unknown. Likely more accurate than the globe.

BrunoBRS.5178:

while the bloodstone argument is a good one as to why they’re all converging to tyria, it is not the way the dragons were defeated, at least to the best of my knowledge. starvation is what awakens them, they go back to sleep when they’re full. so your reasoning there is backwards.

It’s point blank stated that the Elder Dragons were starved during Arah explorable – that’s the whole lore behind the Bloodstone and Glint hiding the races.

It’s also point blank stated in Edge of Destiny (by Eir on the full Destiny’s Edge’s way to the Dragonspawn) that Drakkar (though unnamed in the book) used the Sons of Svanir to empower Jormag with their magic to help him rise faster.

I don’t know where you get that starving awakens the Elder Dragons. It’s not the first time – I recall before seeing someone mention that the Great Destroyer was siphoning magic from Primordus to make him rise, but I don’t recall this being mentioned and said person wasn’t able to provide a source.

BrunoBRS.5178:

god-eating dragon

The Elder Dragons haven’t eaten any gods. It’s fully unknown whether or not they’d even be able to best the gods even one on one.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i was always of the impression that the elder races defeated the dragons, rather than wait for them to finish their party. otherwise, the dragons would have eventually reached the bloodstone, and who knows what would have happened then.

Unless the Bloodstone was hidden well enough and/or kept being moved about.

But the lore about the elder races’ survival is that they were hidden away by Glint.

“The Forgotten discovered a great spell that granted Glint a will free from control by the Elder Dragon. She then concealed many of the elder races from the dragon.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warden_Illyra

BrunoBRS.5178:

if she hid the bloodstone, then how were the dragons attracted by it? they wouldn’t be able to see or smell or sense the bloodstone in any way (or else it wouldn’t be hidden well enough to protect the elder races)

Just because it is hidden doesn’t mean it cannot be sensed.

It just means they could not pin point its exact location. Maybe they felt that there was magic – some kind of magic – near or in Tyria and was searching for it.

Honestly, though. I’m betting on “it kept moving” – I doubt that Kralkatorrik would have let Glint slide for her “betrayal” during the previous dragon rise if the first thing he did upon waking up was hunting her down.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i was always of the impression that the elder races defeated the dragons, rather than wait for them to finish their party. otherwise, the dragons would have eventually reached the bloodstone, and who knows what would have happened then.

Unless the Bloodstone was hidden well enough and/or kept being moved about.

But the lore about the elder races’ survival is that they were hidden away by Glint.

“The Forgotten discovered a great spell that granted Glint a will free from control by the Elder Dragon. She then concealed many of the elder races from the dragon.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warden_Illyra

Combine that with Glint’s line about the Elder Dragons consuming all they could until they starved into hibernation (I’m not sure if that’s the exact lines, don’t have the novel on me), it’s pretty obvious they were not defeated.

BrunoBRS.5178:

if she hid the bloodstone, then how were the dragons attracted by it? they wouldn’t be able to see or smell or sense the bloodstone in any way (or else it wouldn’t be hidden well enough to protect the elder races)

Just because it is hidden doesn’t mean it cannot be sensed.

It just means they could not pin point its exact location. Maybe they felt that there was magic – some kind of magic – near or in Tyria and was searching for it.

Honestly, though. I’m betting on “it kept moving” – I doubt that Kralkatorrik would have let Glint slide for her “betrayal” during the previous dragon rise if the first thing he did upon waking up was hunting her down.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Thalador.4218:

BrunoBRS.5178:

if she hid the bloodstone, then how were the dragons attracted by it? they wouldn’t be able to see or smell or sense the bloodstone in any way (or else it wouldn’t be hidden well enough to protect the elder races)

You just answered your own question.

i don’t see how? if she sought to protect the elder races from the dragons, she wouldn’t have put them with the one thing the dragons want the most, at least not without making sure it’s untraceable and impossible to find. but if that was the case, then the dragons wouldn’t have converged to tyria… so… what exactly did i answer there?

I think what Thalador was trying to say is that it wasn’t “hidden well enough” but it was still hidden. Hence, you answered your own question: it was hidden, but it was traceable to some degree – enough for them to head to Tyria, but not enough for them to locate it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I don’t know where you get that starving awakens the Elder Dragons. It’s not the first time – I recall before seeing someone mention that the Great Destroyer was siphoning magic from Primordus to make him rise, but I don’t recall this being mentioned and said person wasn’t able to provide a source.

Edge of Destiny is the first place to spring to my mind, pgs 339 and 340: “I saw how they ate until there was nothing left to eat, and then fell, sated… three hundred years ago, the dragons’ bellies were empty, and their minds were awakening.” I also vaguely recall that bit about the Great Destroyer too… I believe it was from an old interview, the one that likened him to an alarm clock.

It’s point blank stated that the Elder Dragons were starved during Arah explorable – that’s the whole lore behind the Bloodstone and Glint hiding the races.

I thought so too, but I checked earlier, and it’s not. All that’s said is “When the Elder Dragons first awoke, they gathered the unspoiled magic in the world and locked it within a great artifact—the first bloodstone.” There’s nothing about how that affected the dragons, or how they responded. I think us players just took the leap from there, but it doesn’t necessarily mean we’re correct. Given the aforementioned quote from Glint, it almost sounds like the Elder Dragons just gave up looking and went back to sleep.

I do recall an actual mention of them starving, actually. May not be on the wiki, or it may simply be elsewhere.