Guild Wars 2

Since ArenaNet’s LS department likes making the most important characters female (Marjory, Kasmeer, Kiel, Mai Trin, Scarlet), could at least one of the Elder Dragons have a female voice?

Zhaitan is probably male, having an Islamic masculine name, and so is PrimordiUS. But what about Jormag (especially ironic since all its followers are male) and Mordremoth?

The dragons do not have genders (as far as we know). They are always refered to in game as ‘it’ or ‘the dragon’ – never as ‘he’ or ‘him’ or any other gendered term. Their names don’t really indicate a gender either, the words might have masculine roots in our world, but that doesn’t necessarily apply to Tyria. There’s also the question of whether they named themselves or were named by others. Jormag is referred to as male by the Sons of Svanir – but they’re an all male group who hate Jora because she was a woman and was able to defeat her brother Svanir – Jormag wouldn’t be likely to contradict them because as long as they’re following he/she/it then he/she/it doesn’t really care.

The one exception may be Kralkatorrik – I think Glint may use a gendered pronoun in Edge of Destiny, but I’m not 100% certain on that and it could easily be an oversight.

It seems as though they all end up being referred to as male by default – but that is frequently the case with un-gendered things because people are weird like that. I mean, I can’t count the number of times people just assume my dogs and cats are all male…. (they’re not)

We have no evidence of dragons reproducing in the conventional sense. They do ‘reproduce’ via corruption, so from that stand point one could refer to them all as female. But ‘it’ is probably a far better description.

It would depend really if they ever give the Elder Dragons an actually voice, and not just a specialized minion for the job.

I am talking about ED voices, not their biological gender, which I assume they do not have.

Speaking of which. To compensate for Zhaitan’s failtastic lack of personality, the next dragon we face should have a sexy, sultry voice and attempt to sway us to its/her/his side

Oh, but they don’t have voices? We don’t even know if they have the capacity to speak – they are dragons after all. (Yes Glint and Kuunavang could both speak (also both female))

It was stated a long time ago – by Ree via Regina, I believe – that the Elder Dragons don’t have genders in the sense of “male or female”. Though they’re all often called “he” they’re all more of an “it”.

Closest to gendered dragons we’ll get will likely be dragon champions – such as Glint was often considered a female.

@FlamingFoxx: Yes, Glint calls Kralkatorrik a he. Kralk and Jormag are the only dragons I know with absolute certainty to be called a he. I think Zhaitan was too, but not sure.

I, for one, would actually be disappointed if they spoke. It kind of goes against what they’ve set the dragons up to be, these towering eldritch abominations with no concern for mortal life. It would feel out of place for one of these things to acknowledge and then try to communicate with my character, or really any character.

Trahearne at least continually refers to Zhaitan as an it. So that’s something.

I agree with you Aaron. I’m sure they could pull it off if they tried really hard, but it’s just going to work out much better if the dragons don’t speak. I don’t imagine they would have anything to say to us anyway.

I’d rather they stick to a specialized minion to do the talking for it, or at least the mindkittens towards the player. The Elder Dragons trying to talk to us, would be like us trying to talk to ants. We’re just on different levels.

The Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan’s combat dialogue was nice and creepy. They don’t need Zhaitan to speak to mess with the player, since its more powerful minions can just as easily fill in that role.

It only a pity we had to get so far into the PS to get to it though.

@Aaron: what if we back it into the corner, and it goes cursing us in an ancient language (ala Dragonspawn’s speaking in Edge of Destiny)? Or if it’s just talking to itself. :P

What an Elder Dragon needs to feel better in regards to persona is simply a powerful returning minion (they almost had this with the Eye/Mouth of Zhaitan, one can count Glint in a way as this) – it seems they may be setting Tequatl up to be such post-Zhaitan’s defeat. Of course, it needs to be done better than Scarlet’s show-and-leave.

With Zhaitan, in retrospect, I would have had the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan joining Blightghast in assaulting Claw Island (thus being the one to kill our mentor), appearing at the Temple of the Forgotten God (instead of a generic Eye), being the one the dead Eye of Zhaitan saw (instead of a generic Eye; and it being that we mistook a lesser Eye for the Sovereign Eye) and taunting us at that point via “real time memories” as it seems to be in the story step, and then finally at The Source of Orr.

Drakkar can easily fill this kind of role for Jormag (being capable of speech just like Dragonspawn and Glint, and can be more highly revered by the Sons of Svanir due to it being Drakkar who turned Svanir). And Chief Kronon for Kralkatorrik (he’s the ogre chieftain from Edge of Destiny that led the assault on Ebonhawke and was fooled by Jennah’s illusion).

Gender is not biological, the word you’re looking for is sex, and even then it gets iffy.

Also, and on topic, would you describe a tornado, earthquake, or tidal wave as a he or she?

AeriaElara.4297:

Also, and on topic, would you describe a tornado, earthquake, or tidal wave as a he or she?

I’ve overheard a few people address a tornado with a specific gender, it seems a part of the human nature requires to assign genders to things regardless if it is applicable or not.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Aaron: what if we back it into the corner, and it goes cursing us in an ancient language (ala Dragonspawn’s speaking in Edge of Destiny)? Or if it’s just talking to itself. :P

Right after posting that I actually stopped and thought about them talking to each other. I think it would be really pretty cool if that happened and then we couldn’t understand these words literally going over our heads… and really pretty lame if we could.

AeriaElara.4297:

Gender is not biological, the word you’re looking for is sex, and even then it gets iffy.

Also, and on topic, would you describe a tornado, earthquake, or tidal wave as a he or she?

Hurricanes are referred to with femenine names.

So yes.

But it’s not like Elder Dragons are actual forces of nature. People often mistake ArenaNet’s love of comparing Elder Dragons to said forces of nature, as ArenaNet saying the Elder Dragons are said forces of nature.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Aaron: what if we back it into the corner, and it goes cursing us in an ancient language (ala Dragonspawn’s speaking in Edge of Destiny)? Or if it’s just talking to itself. :P

Right after posting that I actually stopped and thought about them talking to each other. I think it would be really pretty cool if that happened and then we couldn’t understand these words literally going over our heads… and really pretty lame if we could.

Agreed. If we could understand the Elder Dragons, it’s be very lame. Until maybe the last Elder Dragon alive and is cornered – I mean, knowing five of its kind have been killed off by us heroes, by then they’d have to acknowledge us as a threat (hell, they should now at least as a good potential threat given Zhaitan’s death – and potential only because Zhaitan rushed it and was in close proximity from the get go) and having corrupted modern creatures and learned their memories, would also know the Tyrian language (though this doesn’t mean they’d be capable of speaking said language! Their tongue/mouth/throat/whatever may not allow the proper pronunciation of the syllables).

But I would love to see the language the Dragonspawn spoke elaborated upon and used more commonly amongst the non-corrupted-modern-being (e.g., Shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Drakkar, etc.) when beseeching their dragon or some such.

This is silly. The dragons have no sex, everyone in game refers to them as “It”. Only players refer to the dragon as “he” because most people have the habit of calling ungendered things “he”
Also, the dragons don’t have voices, they don’t talk.
Female dragon minions? Yeah. Female dragon? No, its an it

@Konig – Hurricanes are referred by both male and female names.

Weindrasi.3805:

This is silly. The dragons have no sex, everyone in game refers to them as “It”. Only players refer to the dragon as “he” because most people have the habit of calling ungendered things “he”
Also, the dragons don’t have voices, they don’t talk.
Female dragon minions? Yeah. Female dragon? No, its an it

Uh…
<PlayerName>, what a pleasure to have worked with you. Although Dragon’s influence continues to spread, with your help we’ve slowed the spread of his corruption. Thank you! _
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fightthe_ice_dragon%27s_corruption

Son of Svanir: We must make Jormag’s strength our own.
Svanir Initiate: Jormag is strength. Jormag is power.
Son of Svanir: Breathe in his power. Devour his strength.
Svanir Initiate: We will be transformed. We will reign supreme!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Highpeaks

Wollam the Plunderer: Jormag has no need for your soft words. Balance means nothing compared to his power.
Wollam the Plunderer: I will make him more powerful with your relics, and earn his favor with your head.

Honor’s Claw: And their master in the north laughs. Listen to my words. Jormag threatens us all. And we must be ready for him.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Honor_of_the_Waves_%28explorable%29

Just three of many cases where Jormag’s called a he. Kralkatorrik is also called a he, by Glint in Edge of Destiny, such as this line on Page 340:

“At first, for centuries, I defended my master. But I could hear his thoughts, too, and I knew that if he rose again, all good things would come to an end.”

And dragons have voices. It’s just that, thus far, we’ve only heard them roar. If they can make verbal noises (roaring included), and if intelligent enough, they can speak. And given that they know all that their minions know and knew, then they know many different languages – both young and old.

DarcShriek.5829:

@Konig – Hurricanes are referred by both male and female names.

Only since 1978 though. Women names were used since 1953. If my facts aren’t wrong. And still, it’s more often to be women names, is it not?

Still, point stands. People do refer to natural disasters with masculine or feminine terms.

What about Glint? She is not an Elder Dragon, but she is still a dragon, right? And she did lay eggs.
Are Elder Dragons and their champions from the same biological family? Does that make them hermaphrodite?

She did “lay” “eggs” sure. Except that said eggs were transparent, made of crystal, and dragon minions (champions included) cannot reproduce. Glint “laying eggs” is just her making Branded Crystals that spawned a branded dragon-shaped minion – the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders can easily be considered Branded, in terms of lore.

It should be noted that not all dragon champions are actually dragons. Mordus Lethe was a dragon champion of Zhaitan, but was a Risen Norn; the Destroyer of Life, also a dragon champion but of Primordus, was mantis-shaped; the Dragonspawn, a dragon champion of Jormag, was made from ice, mist, and bones (of minotaurs and other things).

AeriaElara.4297:

Gender is not biological, the word you’re looking for is sex, and even then it gets iffy.

Actually ‘gender’ can be and is used in a biological context.

The word ‘gender’ is even used by organisations like the US FDA to differentiate between male and female physiology (http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=gender&client=FDAgov&site=FDAgov&lr=&proxystylesheet=FDAgov&requiredfields=-archive%3AYes&output=xml_no_dtd&getfields=*).

All of this is a moot point because as far as we know, EDs don’t have a gender.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

She did “lay” “eggs” sure. Except that said eggs were transparent, made of crystal, and dragon minions (champions included) cannot reproduce. Glint “laying eggs” is just her making Branded Crystals that spawned a branded dragon-shaped minion – the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders can easily be considered Branded, in terms of lore.

It should be noted that not all dragon champions are actually dragons. Mordus Lethe was a dragon champion of Zhaitan, but was a Risen Norn; the Destroyer of Life, also a dragon champion but of Primordus, was mantis-shaped; the Dragonspawn, a dragon champion of Jormag, was made from ice, mist, and bones (of minotaurs and other things).

Not to mention the Nornbear, aka Svanir. Merely an Icebrood Norn in bear form. And as draconic as he may be, Drakkar definitely feels more like the “sandstorm crag” type elemental shape as opposed to a dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

She did “lay” “eggs” sure. Except that said eggs were transparent, made of crystal, and dragon minions (champions included) cannot reproduce. Glint “laying eggs” is just her making Branded Crystals that spawned a branded dragon-shaped minion – the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders can easily be considered Branded, in terms of lore.

It should be noted that not all dragon champions are actually dragons. Mordus Lethe was a dragon champion of Zhaitan, but was a Risen Norn; the Destroyer of Life, also a dragon champion but of Primordus, was mantis-shaped; the Dragonspawn, a dragon champion of Jormag, was made from ice, mist, and bones (of minotaurs and other things).

thanks for the clarification. Didn’t play GW1.
Now I have a million other questions though… but not sure if this is the right topic for them

@Narcemus: Yeah, I was just listing from Edge of Destiny, not bothering with the whole spheal. Otherwise we’d be getting the Eyes/Mouths of Zhaitan, and likely many many more.

@Underdark: Then make a new thread. :P

About talking dragons: I would like to hear them communicate with players, their champions or other elder dragons.

I’d like the idea how it is implemented in Skyrim. At first you are not able to understand the language they speak, but then a certain event triggers and you are able to communicate with or understand them. Something like that would be very awesome in GW2.

If they already able to speak our language, which could be highly possible because they live for so long and are probably very smart (you notice that with the way Jormag or other dragons “corrupt” people or beings).

Especially if you consider Scarlets “corruption” inside her vision/dream she had while being in the eternal alchemy, it seems like an elder dragon (Primordus/Mordremoth) has spoken and manipulated her (yes those are just theories so far).

I hope an elder dragon has a voice like that actor on the Origin of Madness trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y9M0NhHE4w

(sry for my bad english, it’s not my first language)

I don’t >.>
I think the voice in the trailer is cheesy.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Weindrasi.3805:

This is silly. The dragons have no sex, everyone in game refers to them as “It”. Only players refer to the dragon as “he” because most people have the habit of calling ungendered things “he”
Also, the dragons don’t have voices, they don’t talk.
Female dragon minions? Yeah. Female dragon? No, its an it

Uh…
<PlayerName>, what a pleasure to have worked with you. Although Dragon’s influence continues to spread, with your help we’ve slowed the spread of his corruption. Thank you! _
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fightthe_ice_dragon%27s_corruption

Son of Svanir: We must make Jormag’s strength our own.
Svanir Initiate: Jormag is strength. Jormag is power.
Son of Svanir: Breathe in his power. Devour his strength.
Svanir Initiate: We will be transformed. We will reign supreme!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Highpeaks

Wollam the Plunderer: Jormag has no need for your soft words. Balance means nothing compared to his power.
Wollam the Plunderer: I will make him more powerful with your relics, and earn his favor with your head.

Honor’s Claw: And their master in the north laughs. Listen to my words. Jormag threatens us all. And we must be ready for him.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Honor_of_the_Waves_%28explorable%29

Just three of many cases where Jormag’s called a he. Kralkatorrik is also called a he, by Glint in Edge of Destiny, such as this line on Page 340:

“At first, for centuries, I defended my master. But I could hear his thoughts, too, and I knew that if he rose again, all good things would come to an end.”

And dragons have voices. It’s just that, thus far, we’ve only heard them roar. If they can make verbal noises (roaring included), and if intelligent enough, they can speak. And given that they know all that their minions know and knew, then they know many different languages – both young and old.

DarcShriek.5829:

@Konig – Hurricanes are referred by both male and female names.

Only since 1978 though. Women names were used since 1953. If my facts aren’t wrong. And still, it’s more often to be women names, is it not?

Still, point stands. People do refer to natural disasters with masculine or feminine terms.

Honestly, I don’t think you can even count what the Sons of Svanir say, because they would never in any stretch of the imagination refer to Jormag as “She” or think of Jormag as “She”, and if Jormag was a “She”, their heads would probably explode. lol.

As for Glint in Edge of Destiny, that book was not only written while the game was still in development, but it was written very poorly. And since the dragons have been stated by the devs to be sexless, we can assume that Glint’s and Honor’s Claw’s use of male terminology is purely habitual to the character, or accidental on the writer’s part—not a factual indicator of the dragon’s sex.

As for speech, I tend to agree with the above posters. Except for the need to communicate through their minions, the dragons aren’t going to strike up a conversation with us lowly germ-people.

;) Perhaps the next time I take an antibiotic for an infection, I’ll declare “Now listen here, you lowly germs, this is your last chance! Flee before my power or face the wrath of my medication!”

So I guess that those fighting Jormag and his minions – in the quoted cases, homestead owners and a Claw of Koda – wouldn’t think to call Jormag a she?

And apparently you missed my point entirely. You said the Elder Dragons are never referred to with a gender – as in, never – but only as an it. I proved you wrong, they are referred to with genders. I never said they had genders just that they’re referred to with such.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So I guess that those fighting Jormag and his minions – in the quoted cases, homestead owners and a Claw of Koda – wouldn’t think to call Jormag a she?

And apparently you missed my point entirely. You said the Elder Dragons are never referred to with a gender – as in, never – but only as an it. I proved you wrong, they are referred to with genders. I never said they had genders just that they’re referred to with such.

My initial posting was never intended to be based in hard facts, or to be the subject of debate. It was a brief, tongue-in-cheek, admittedly lazy way of making a point. That point being that 1. The dragons don’t have a physical sex, and 2. The dragons don’t talk -to us-. Their mentality is so drastically different from ours that, even if they have the intellect to do so, they never would.

When I saw that, yes, my lazy little post had gained critical response, I replied with a more accurate layout of my opinion.
So yes, the statement “everyone in-game refers to the dragons as ‘it’” was wrong.
The -poorly communicated- point behind the statement is not.

So I’ll re-state: I don’t think the elder dragons will have voices, except through their minions. And the minions could be of either sex. I will give the OP this: Zhaitan’s prominent minions were mostly male… or at least voiced as male (the wraiths, the various Orrian royals we fought, the Mouth, the Eye). So, for a future elder dragon, a prominent female minion could be featured. It would be ironic if it were a minion of Jormag.

I’m confused about Glint and her eggs and the eggs not containing babies. She has/had at least one baby and we had to protect it in GW1. It was also specifically referred to as a baby dragon. So, what was it?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Baby_Dragon

(I really need to go back and play more of that game)

videoboy.4162:

I’m confused about Glint and her eggs and the eggs not containing babies. She has/had at least one baby and we had to protect it in GW1. It was also specifically referred to as a baby dragon. So, what was it?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Baby_Dragon

(I really need to go back and play more of that game)

A baby Branded dragon, according to current thought.

Konig claims the eggs aren’t eggs at all. I don’t know about that- the destroyers are the only minions that have been seen using that trick, and the baby dragon has the same fleshy bits as Glint. I find it more likely that Glint falls under the “pregnant when corrupted” category, which would make her child a dragon that was Branded as an embryo.

Well you could go and check out an elder dragon for yourself for any anatomy to indicate gender, but I don’t wanna get close. Good luck.

videoboy.4162:

I’m confused about Glint and her eggs and the eggs not containing babies. She has/had at least one baby and we had to protect it in GW1. It was also specifically referred to as a baby dragon. So, what was it?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Baby_Dragon

(I really need to go back and play more of that game)

What I was saying was that she was, effectively, making new branded champions – likely free of Kralkatorrik’s will like herself – with those “eggs”. They function, it would seem, like many of the corrupted ice and crystals of icebrood/branded seen in GW2 – spawning minions of their own.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

A baby Branded dragon, according to current thought.

Konig claims the eggs aren’t eggs at all. I don’t know about that- the destroyers are the only minions that have been seen using that trick, and the baby dragon has the same fleshy bits as Glint. I find it more likely that Glint falls under the “pregnant when corrupted” category, which would make her child a dragon that was Branded as an embryo.

Firstly, about the “fleshy bits” that Glint has. This is not so (retcon, one can claim) as she is stated to have been made out of crystal in GW2:
Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29#Forgotten

Secondly, about the “destroyer eggs” – those by all appearances are just mobile and enclosed spawning pools; destroyers are, other than said eggs, only seen being made in vats of lava, forming slowly over time (details of such I believe was shown in the fight with the Destroyer of Life, half-formed destroyers in a pool of lava), and given that the eggs spawn all forms of destroyers (crablings, crabs, and trolls at least) they are by far no standard “egg”.

Thirdly, we actually do see crystals – and ice in icebrood cases – spawning dragon minions. One such case would be the Champion Strange Crystal seen during Search Tenaebron Lake with the Sentinels, which spawns a branded fish. It’s far more common amongst the icebrood, as in higher level areas corrupted ice spawns Icebrood Elementals when destroyed, and there’s also the crystals dropped by the Claw of Jormag which spawns a variety of minions.

Did someone mention a female dragon?