Guild Wars 2

What’s the connection between this awakening and the previous in regards to the dragons themselves? Are there Elder Dragons, or the Elder Dragons. Are we experiencing the same dragons that awoke in the previous cycle, or physical representations of (for lack of a better term) generic elder dragons? Yes, they are named properly so this gives some indication to the answer, as well as the fact that they went to sleep but the dragons have been described previously as a force of nature (I’m not sure if that has been retconned yet). So comparing them to, say, a hurricane:

We get different hurricanes but, the definition of a hurricane is always the same. Are we experiencing Zhaitan, or a Zhaitan-like awakening of an elder dragon?

I feel like I’m having trouble finding the words for what I actually want to ask… I’ll edit later if it comes to me better.

Thanks

Kralkatorrik, Primordus, Zhaitan, and Jormag all have records from the previous rise. The first via Glint and the others via dwarves. They are the same Elder Dragons – at least thosefour of the six known, and the last rise had six known by the jotun.

The Elder Dragons are called forces of nature in the concept that they are (until now) undefeated and unkillable. Furthermore, they are tied to elements of nature – fire, ice, water, elements, vegetation, and death as we have seen – as well as in at least one being capable of turning into a storm itself – Kralkatorrik turning into a sandstorm (and another making one – Jormag making a blizzard).

As for reasoning of awakening… I do not think that their purpose in living is to keep magic in check, but rather that they just happen to do so. In Sea of Sorrows, Whiting’s lines about Elder Dragons’ intention is to control the world, more or less, not to eventually go back to sleep.

@Aaron: Keep in mind that the Elder Dragons see time differently than we or normal Tyrians. What is a century to a creature that sleeps for 10,000 years? Kind of like the explanation for the Thorian’s view of time from Mass Effect. “10,000 years of hibernation for just a few frantic centuries of activity.”

Besides, Zhaitan had actually been expanding his territory since 10 or so years after rising. Lion’s Arch had kept them from expanding territory and until lately there’s been no life to assault on the eastern Tarnished Coast hence why those risen are new.

But as for intention… All minions give unique views that tend to share tendencies amongst their kind (risen, icebrood, etc.). Whether this is a view of the Elder Dragons’ intent, goals, or just simply the side effects of their own corruption is not clear. But there is a clear difference between mentalities.

(I think you’re asking if they’re the same dragons, like Eir is Eir, or if they’re just generic names, like The Shatterer is just a name given to the strongest lieutenant)

I like to think that it’s the same Elder Dragons, not just concepts, because how else are they created then? If after every rise, they just disappear, then what’s the explanation for their sleeping bodies (Kralk and Primordus in GW1)

Yeah that’s the main reason for the part of me that agrees with you. I have been hinging on this “force of nature” concept since release because I thought it was a very unique concept for an antagonist. Because of that concept I find a lot of contradictions for the dragons’ actions/motivations(or lack of).

Do you think they know the reason for their awakening, as in they’re like “okay I have to awaken and eat this magic” or just that they come awake when there is imbalance in magic and they follow a formulaic form of their purpose (to consume)?

Well, in the case of Zhaitan, his minions seem to believe they are on a mission to take over everything basically. They all seem to have their own goals, although they all inadvertently deal with consuming magic. I don’t think it’s backed up anywhere, but I feel like they wake up unknowingly, then pursue these goals, rather than “it’s time to wake up and balance the magic”.

Yes that’s also my belief. I’m interested to see how they implement the other dragons, and what they’ve learned from Zhaitan.

Frankly, I’m not convinced that they each have goals- inclinations may be more accurate. Take Zhaitan for instance. He lounged around in Arah for over a hundred years. Sure, you can make the arguments of “building his forces” and “plenty of magic, no reason to rush it”, but all the same the only agenda we see him actively pursue is gorging himself on magic and defending his territory. Even when he does make his move in the PS it’s only with a tiny fraction of his force. None of it adds up to having some drive to change the nature of the world- it seems to reflect a mindset that really couldn’t care less about what happens beyond its lair.

I’d agree that they have their own goals or inclinations. (Basically, I doubt they see themselves are caretakers of magic balancing). And those goals combined with their tendancies and power have come together to form a sort of balance. Which would still make them akin to forces of nature. Like a fire elemental wanting to burn everything around being balanced by water elementals, etc.

Yes, they are the same Elder Dragons from the previous awakening of the Elder Dragons. This can be proven simply by playing Guild Wars: Eye of the North (GW:EN) where in both Kralkatorrik and Primordus can be seen in their dormant states, all at the same time as Primordus’ minions (the Destroyers) are wreaking havoc all over the Far Shiverpeaks.

I have provided a screenshots of the two as evidence (one of them I had to link to tinypic.com because I could only upload a single screenshot as an attachment):

http://i39.tinypic.com/6pce1t.jpg

You can actually attach more photo’s, it is just a strangely long process. I attach a photo, and they I click on Preview and after the preview you can click attach again and add another and repeat the process until you are done.

See “Reign of Fire” on the rise and fall of dragons in first 10mins they sum um why dragons go to sleep. I think Anet took this direction when they crafted their elder dragons.

Actually Dragons having hibernation periods has its origins in a great many different Archetypes. Even Tolkien hit on it when he was writing about Smaug who had been in a sort of languishing hibernation period prior to Bilbo stealing from him and kitten ing him off. Then of course there are Dungeons and Dragons’ Dragons who make a habit of having hibernation periods. Of course that makes sense seeing as how those Dragons really didn’t die of old age in the traditional sense and could live in excess of 1,000 to 10,000 years (depending on the Campaign Setting).

In fact the very concept of the Elder Dragons in this game probably draws directly from the Dragonlance Campaign of Dungeons and Dragons where in there were 6 Dragons known collectively as the Dragon Overlords who could basically warp the reality of the world of Krynn, and basically did everything that the Elder Dragons do, only they did it first.

The Dragon Overlords were first conceived of at some point prior to the year 1996 as it was at this time that they first appeared in the Dragonlance Storyline in the book “The Dawning of a New Age.” Primordus and Kralkatorrik would not make their first appearance within Guild Wars until late in 2007. As such the very concept of the Elder Dragons probably has its basis in the Dragon Overlords of Krynn who were the very embodiment of Draconic Eldritch Abominations, despite the fact that they were still Dragons with very clear personal motivations.

Take the mighty Khellendros, one of the Dragon Overlords. Though only by virtue of the fact that he traveled to the plane that the Dragon Overlords were from and was altered because of it. His goal and motivation is to search for and find his best friend, Kitiara (a Human woman) and rescue her from whatever fate has befallen her. An ironically impossible task, even though he doesn’t know it.

For reference, the Dragon Overlords of Krynn are:

Beryllinthranox the Green Peril (Green Dragon Overlord, with Dominion over the Forests of Krynn)

Brynseldimer (a Sea Dragon about whom very little is known)

Gellidus the Ice Tyrant (White Dragon Overlord, with Dominion over the Frozen wastes of Krynn)

Khellendros the Storm Over Krynn (Blue Dragon Overlord, with dominion over much of the civilized regions of Krynn)

Malystryx the Red Queen (Red Dragon Overlord, and most powerful of the Overlords, as evidenced by the fact that she instilled terror into a race that had never known fear.)

Onysablet the Black Overlord (Black Dragon Overlord with dominion over death)

Wow those parallels seem to numerous to be coincidence.

I’d disagree- from what I recall (it’s been a while since I’ve read those books) the overlords were just alien dragons from a world with massive dragons (so not eldritch abominations), and their ability to change the landscape stemmed from specific magical artifacts. I’m not dismissing the similarities, I’m just saying it’s not a direct copy in the way your post implies.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I’d disagree- from what I recall (it’s been a while since I’ve read those books) the overlords were just alien dragons from a world with massive dragons (so not eldritch abominations), and their ability to change the landscape stemmed from specific magical artifacts. I’m not dismissing the similarities, I’m just saying it’s not a direct copy in the way your post implies.

You are correct, the Overlords are in fact Alien Entities to the world of Krynn. also, I was wrong, Khellendros was actually from the Dragon Overlord world originally, Takhisis the Goddess of the Evil Dragons of Krynn actually took him from that world as a younger Dragon so that he could rule as her Lieutenant on Krynn after she took over that world.

However, when I referred to them as Eldritch Abominations, what I was referencing was the fact that Eldritch Abominations are essentially entities who generally speaking are of massive size and who care very little for the creatures that surround them. The smallest of the Dragon Overlords was a Colossal Dragon of Challenge Rating 22. To put this in comparison, the smallest creature in the Colossal size category is 64 feet tall, and weighs at least 125 tons. A Colossal Dragon however generally (and this is for a standard D&D Dragon) maxed out at 120 ft. long and 640 tons with a wingspan of 150 feet (sizes curteousy of the D&D 3.5 Draconomicon).

Now, with this in mind, let us look at the Overlords: Malystryx, the largest and strongest of the Dragon Overlords was OVER 400 feet long. The smallest of the Dragon Overlords was 231 feet long, which is still longer than a typical D&D Dragon. Khellendros, the one I mentioned had been on Krynn the longest, measured in at just under 400 feet himself.

These Dragons were so massive that just landing on the ground altered the terrain. Do you know what happens when a creature around double of 640 tons lands on the surface of a planet? The largest Dinosaur of the Sauropod category to live on our own planet, weighed in at around 100 tons. That Dinosaur would have caused the earth to shake in it’s passing. Get a whole herd of them and you would have had a mini earth quake.

Now imagine what would happen when you have a single creature that weighs over 1,000 tons? Not only that, but one which can fly, breath elemental energy out of its mouth, and who through mystical arts can make the very environment around them more suitable to their liking. You are talking engines of destruction that would be very hard to kill, much less simply approach in the first place.

These Dragons would barely even notice an army of people who are comprised of a bunch of people who are at most 6 or 7 feet tall and weigh at most 200 to 400 pounds. They could easily just sit on these people and be done with the fight.

Now do you see just how big of a menace that the Dragon Overlords of Krynn presented? Do you see why I consider them to be the prototypes for the Elder Dragons of Tyria? They were essentially the same concept, only much earlier.

Yes, there are subtle differences, enough so that there isn’t cause for copyright infringement. But the similarities are way to obvious for any true fan of Dungeons and Dragons not to take notice of.

Hm… I take your meaning, although I still think that ANet took some major, largely successful steps to distance themselves from that mold and make their EDs unique. Things like the 10,000 year cycle of awakening, or that their base essence is corruptive, or that they’re tied perhaps inextricably to the nature of Tyria… there are a few major points that set them apart from becoming just another impossibly massive Overlord.

Like I said, there are enough differences between the Elder Dragons and the Dragon Overlords that Anet is not at risk of copyright infringement. However, the similarities between the two groups are still there.

I think the main goal of the Dragons is to eat (magic). Why did they go to sleep? Because they had enough to eat and could rest. Why did they wake up? They got hungry. Typical reptile behavior.

Are they the same Dragons as before? Yes. You can see the sleeping forms of Kraalkatorik and Primordus in GW1. Glint was a servant of K from the previous cycle, and he remembered her well enough to seek her out and destroy her, so he is almost certainly the same being. Probably holds for the others too.