Guild Wars 2

So… how does that fit in with me becoming a berserker or dragon hunter, etcetera, if Braham becomes the first dragon hunter, or (I’m assuming) Canach becoming the first berserker?

Any thoughts or information on this guys/gals?

I think you’re just assuming that because Rytlock was the first revenant all specs have to be established by an NPC before we can do it. I don’t think that was ever implied to be the case anywhere in the game.

Squee.7829:

I think you’re just assuming that because Rytlock was the first revenant all specs have to be established by an NPC before we can do it. I don’t think that was ever implied to be the case anywhere in the game.

I can’t do anything but speculate because find any lore on the elite specializations. Marjory seemed to be the first Reaper, but thankfully it hasn’t been confirmed. Braham recently looks like the first Dragonhunter, but still it hasn’t been confirmed. If all of the sudden Rytlock barges in out of literally nowhere with a new profession and being the first of its kind, it would lead me to believe that Anet is going to go down this unfortunate path.

Yeah, they leave a lot of loose ends and junk. It’d be nice if they did actually give some lore insight as to why spec classes exist all of a sudden.

As far as I’m aware, there is no “first” when it comes to the elite specs. Like rangers rediscover the secrets of being a druid when they return to the Maguuma jungle, but there’s no “first ranger to be a druid in centuries” thing. Marjory wasn’t the first necromancer to wield a greatsword, either; that honour goes to Trahearne and his Caladbolg. Braham only started wielding his mother’s longbow long after Mordremoth’s death, at which point many guardians were drawing back their bowstrings. I don’t really want to go through all 8 (ignoring the revenant for what should be obvious reasons) elites, but I think I’ve made my point.

The point is there are not lore for the Elite Specs, and there should be.

The player character doesn’t represent all there is to a given profession.

Take Suriel the Blazing Light. She is a guardian with spells the player only can dream about, like becoming . Same thing goes for Necromancers and Liadri.
Sure, there abilities are ampt up, so the encounters are fun and difficult, but the theme of their fighting style doesn’t change.

With that in mind: It is entirely possible, that the art of being a druid or dragonhunter or whatever always was there, practiced by unnamed NPCs, ready to be learned by the player character, he just didn’t do it until HoT.

In fact, when speaking about dragonhunters, that’s one of the few elites where we’ve been given even a bare-bones explanation of where they came from: in the wake of the fall of the Pact Fleet, a group of guardians decided to focus on fighting dragons and their minions and developed new skills based on that focus. There doesn’t appear to be one single starting dragonhunter so much as a group.

I really hate that anet spent pretty much zero time putting the elite specs into context using the story. There should have been at least one mission where my mesmer learns about chronomancy before being able to master it.

Yeah, it’s a shame that there is nothing to be experienced apart from “I did all my traitlines, now I’m ready to become berserker/dragonhunter/scrapper”. One has to imagine or play it like their toon stumbles out of a burning wreckage and is so confused/desperate/whatever that they use weapons that they didn’t use before. So much wasted potential. But then again, that would have meant to put countless hours into the development of those “tutorials”.

@Xenon: I think, berserker has its explanation in itself as well. A warrior that has forsaken all tactic and dips into his primal, savage instincts to survive the jungle (okay, somehow I now got the picture of almost-naked Lord Faren jumping from branch to branch… that’s weird!)? I still wonder how Tempests and Chronos fit into this, but then again, I haven’t played those classes (yet).

Plautze.6290:

Yeah, it’s a shame that there is nothing to be experienced apart from “I did all my traitlines, now I’m ready to become berserker/dragonhunter/scrapper”. One has to imagine or play it like their toon stumbles out of a burning wreckage and is so confused/desperate/whatever that they use weapons that they didn’t use before. So much wasted potential. But then again, that would have meant to put countless hours into the development of those “tutorials”.

@Xenon: I think, berserker has its explanation in itself as well. A warrior that has forsaken all tactic and dips into his primal, savage instincts to survive the jungle (okay, somehow I now got the picture of almost-naked Lord Faren jumping from branch to branch… that’s weird!)? I still wonder how Tempests and Chronos fit into this, but then again, I haven’t played those classes (yet).

Tempest, we moved from the calm seaside continent, where a little wind and rain is all we know, to the heart of the jungle, where huricanes, monsoons, and hot winds blow.

As for chronomancer.. well.. they’re mesmers.. it’s more a matter of why it took so long for them to try something completely weird

It’s kinda futile to worry about such details in GW2.
All other examples pale compared to how not only the Elite spec,but the whole Revenant profession was handled,where lore wise it is made repeatedly clear to the player that this new magic is brought in the world of Tyria at the start of the HoT story line by RB,but then you create a character and play the personal story line from the start as Rev.

If nothing else, it would have been nice to get our weapon and armor piece from an NPC who talks about the spec.

Here’s my headcanon when it comes to elite specs:

Durmand Priory elementalist gains inspiration from molten alliance sonic flame rifle, opting for the much cheaper option of using warhorns instead of the unique combination of flame legion and dredge technology

Human necromancer of Elonan origin begins a necromancer focused organisation, seeking inspiration from both Grenth’s reapers and the Paragons of their people

Asuran mesmer plays with a timekeeper device and the alter time spell, then swaps to attempting to stop bullets and other missiles mid air, carrying a shield for protection

Sylvari ranger connects with a druid they have protected, the druid, after discovering the inherent connection of the sylvari to nature, teaches this plant creature how to connect with nature on a deeper level, advising the use of a natural staff for further magical connection

Order of Whispers Norn thief delves further into the teachings of Snow Leopard, opting for more natural evasion, a staff to increase self discipline, giving themselves the challenge to strike more truly with a weapon not as deadly, while creating a hand to hand combat style that fits with the Order of Whispers secretive method

Charr scrapper, in their spare time, creates a small device that flies and modifies a hammer for combative use, after a deadly attack on their group, the modifications are taught to their small group and the small devices are improved upon until they become gyros

Vigil guardian is the least injured survivor after their airship crashes and, after many failed attempts of trying to obtain food, remembers their Bow of Truth and gains inspiration from it, they learn to also set up invisible traps using their magic to survive

Warrior is the only one I haven’t figured something out for, but the main idea would either gain inspiration from wielding a torch in a dark place and losing themselves to their rage or gaining inspiration from elementalists

I mean, the above are open to criticism, but I know the weakest one is the warrior, since I havent actually figured out how that would work, after that would probably be the thief.

And revs of course started with Rytlock, though the reason why Glint could be an elite specialisation would be Rytlock’s personal feelings on his own failure to defend Glint and, if a revenant (commander) eventually convinces Rytlock, through their own connection to Aurene, to teach them how to connect to Glint. I don’t know about this one either though, it seems weak as well.

I always assumed that the Chronomancer just delved deeper into denial magic and focused on illusions that give the perception of rending time.

What I mean to say is that I’m not sure Chronomancers are actually meddling with time, but are rather meddling with people’s perception of time. It’s likely knowledge that already existed within the Mesmer Collective.

We know for a fact that mesmers warp reality, not just the perception of it. Our illusions are also real, taking real damage and dealing real damage (specifically talking about clones and phantasms). The tower of nightmares was surrounded by an invisible wall that physically stopped people from going into the lake. Everything Xera does, like really, everything. Portal spells don’t simply give you the illusion of being in another place, they physically transport you there. Gravity well doesn’t give the enemy the illusion that they’re floating off the ground, they are being physically lifted. Tides of time physically stops people mid action, sometimes in mid air. Everything continuum split does.

There’s very real evidence that mesmers warp reality, including time itself. They DO deal with the mind, illusions and other stuff, but they also have very real powers over reality.

Here’s an excerpt from the mesmer description from the original Guild Wars:

“Mesmers are masters of illusion and control, subverting the enemy’s Energy for their own use, and that of their allies. Combined with any other profession, their skills provide excellent support, turning enemies’ powers against them and changing the very fabric of reality to hinder foes and help allies.”

So we have every reason to believe that chronomancers really do mess with time itself, not just the perception of time.

castlemanic.3198:

We know for a fact that mesmers warp reality, not just the perception of it. Our illusions are also real, taking real damage and dealing real damage (specifically talking about clones and phantasms). The tower of nightmares was surrounded by an invisible wall that physically stopped people from going into the lake. Everything Xera does, like really, everything. Portal spells don’t simply give you the illusion of being in another place, they physically transport you there. Gravity well doesn’t give the enemy the illusion that they’re floating off the ground, they are being physically lifted. Tides of time physically stops people mid action, sometimes in mid air. Everything continuum split does.

There’s very real evidence that mesmers warp reality, including time itself. They DO deal with the mind, illusions and other stuff, but they also have very real powers over reality.

Here’s an excerpt from the mesmer description from the original Guild Wars:

“Mesmers are masters of illusion and control, subverting the enemy’s Energy for their own use, and that of their allies. Combined with any other profession, their skills provide excellent support, turning enemies’ powers against them and changing the very fabric of reality to hinder foes and help allies.”

So we have every reason to believe that chronomancers really do mess with time itself, not just the perception of time.

Yes, but even though it’s warped, it revers. We know this from Glenna’s dialogue after Xera, she says it’s going to take a looong time before the castle returns to normal

What Glenna says is “I doubt it’s going to return to normal anytime soon.” That, to me, sounds like it’s not going to turn back on its own.

As for chronomancers on the whole, from this thread

Scott McGough.6897:

For both story and gameplay, actual time travel is a quagmire that has to be handled carefully.

I see the chronomancer as much more a case of manipulating the local perception of time rather than manipulating time itself. The Continuum Split skill text specifically mentions a rift in time and space continuum, but I’m like you in that I take that to mean “continuum” as a perceived possibility that the chronomancer is working with rather than an actual time jump. It visually appears to let the chronomancer rewind time, but functionally it’s a highly advanced, specialized mesmer clone that players directly control for a short duration while their real body is phased out—thus any damage, etc. happens to the Continuum Split clone (who disappears when the skill expires), and the PC resumes control of their real body unchanged from the moment they activated the skill (although they do retain any XP, etc. they garnered while in Continuum Split).

That said, he does phrase it all as his own personal opinion, not solid canon. ANet’s policy with the professions has always been to lay down the flavor and leave it to the players to each decide for themselves how they want to fill in the blanks of how they function.

Amaimon.7823:

Yes, but even though it’s warped, it revers. We know this from Glenna’s dialogue after Xera, she says it’s going to take a looong time before the castle returns to normal

Aside from what Aaron has posted, the spatial displacement by Portal and Blink don’t reverse. You can jump through a portal and you will never automatically be taken back to the first portal that you used. If you blink, you will never automatically return to where you were before you blinked. So yeah that’s further proof that reality warping via mesmer spells doesn’t simply ‘reverse’.

Back to the topic at hand, I kind of want elementalists to use the smoke magic that flame legion smoke shaman use for a future elite.

Along side that, I also would like the following:

The plantlike hallucinations made by the toxic alliance available to mesmers. The ‘toxic’ bolt by the sylvari toxic sorcerers available to rangers. Liadri type spells for necromancers. Suriel type spells for guardians. And more from whatever other in game examples exist.

I kinda was hoping to find a list of unique spells that originate from enemies using the roster of professions that we have available (like smoke shaman type spells for elementalists) but I simply can’t at the moment.

Plautze.6290:

I still wonder how Tempests and Chronos fit into this, but then again, I haven’t played those classes (yet).

I main mesmer and from my perspective the chronomancer makes the least sense to me… Its a spec that manipulates the fabric of time which is something very sciency to me. Its something mesmers would have to study carefully and train for, but instead we just kind of pick it up naturally without any sort of guidance or a mentor. It doesn’t even make sense that time manipulation would be a thing in a jungle setting.

Why wasn’t there some sort of discovery of this art of chronomancy? Why wasn’t there a master of it to teach us how it works? Why isn’t there some sort of chronomancer guild working to predict the future and/or open up portals to time travel? Surely multiple chronomancers working together with all of the advanced magical materials and technology could figure out how to build a time machine?

I know the real answer… it would create lots of plot holes in the story because time travel is a messy business. But there should at least be SOMETHING going on with chronomancy in the story. ANY context at all would be nice. Instead we got a big fat zero.

Xenon.4537:

I main mesmer and from my perspective the chronomancer makes the least sense to me… Its a spec that manipulates the fabric of time which is something very sciency to me. Its something mesmers would have to study carefully and train for, but instead we just kind of pick it up naturally without any sort of guidance or a mentor. It doesn’t even make sense that time manipulation would be a thing in a jungle setting.

Why wasn’t there some sort of discovery of this art of chronomancy? Why wasn’t there a master of it to teach us how it works? Why isn’t there some sort of chronomancer guild working to predict the future and/or open up portals to time travel? Surely multiple chronomancers working together with all of the advanced magical materials and technology could figure out how to build a time machine?

I know the real answer… it would create lots of plot holes in the story because time travel is a messy business. But there should at least be SOMETHING going on with chronomancy in the story. ANY context at all would be nice. Instead we got a big fat zero.

As a fellow main mesmer, we’ve always had abilities that warp both space and time. Specifically Spatial Surge and Portal manipulate space. Where as we have Temporal Curtain on the focus and Time Warp as an elite. To me, it doesn’t come out of left field since we already have those skills on the core mesmer that are unrelated to the chronomancer. Yes, chronomancer skills are obviously much more powerful than what core mesmer has (specifically concerning space/time magic), but that’s the point, it’s an advancement of techniques already available to us.

EDIT: (let me slyly move this to my newer post)

since I don’t want to risk a double post and feel that the question is relevant enough to THIS discussion, i figured i’d try to edit this comment instead.

So branching off of the idea of elementalists using smoke magic in the future, I was thinking about the elements that elementalists use.

So we have the four big ones, earth, air, fire, water (there’s also arcane, but that’s not really what i’m focusing on)

and then for those four big ones there are secondary elements, sand/magnetism for earth (whichever one is more relevant), lightning for air, lava for fire and ice for water.

Looking at the charr smoke shaman, i figured an elementalist could use smoke as an extension of fire magic, but what about the other three elements? So crystal for earth is easy, mist for water is relevant (though I doubt the usefulness of it beyond mist form), and we have air. I kept on trying to think of a good third ‘element’ for air to use. And then i remembered the zephyrites and their air magic focused aspect crystals, which has a third element, ‘sun’. Would that be something that elementalists could use in the future for air spells?

I thought I’d already responded to this… probably got distracted and failed to actually post.

It’s a theory of a particular asura that zephyrite crystals were a specialised form of air magic, but that was a theory from before we knew that the crystals were ultimately seeded from Glint’s remains. We know that Glint’s magical capabilities go well outside air magic, so the Sun crystals may say nothing about what fits within the realm of air magic. The effects of the Sun skills in the Aspect Arena have a cosmic aspect that probably fits most with the Druid presently.

That said, generating bright flashes of light has generally been associated with Air Magic – presumably, if you can control electricity, you can also generate light. Elementalists traditionally haven’t been able to deal damage with light directly like monks and guardians can (although it’s questionable whether that is because monks and guardians can produce light that’s just that intense, or because they add something to it) but it’s plausible that may change in the future. Mind you, it’s also possible that ArenaNet would simply want to keep lightning as the damaging form of air magic and leave it at that.

(Incidentally, I have thought myself that a Zephyrite-inspired specialisation where each attunement maps to an Aspect could work well. Fire to Sun, Air to Lighting, Water to Wind, and Earth to Crystal. Taking the specialisation weapon would fully embrace this, but even with another weaponset you might be able to use traits to insert a bit of the aspect into regular elemental magic. For instance, such an elementalist using the specialisation weaponset might use Fire (Sun) the way most elementalists use Water – however, an elementalist with the specialisation but using more conventional weapons might have a trait that allows them to do a little bit of healing with fire skills.)

Now that I come to think of it, not a single one of our skills/traits is truly “taught” to us. Back in GW1, there was the Prophecies Tutorial [And Shingjea and that tutorial town in Nightfall that was “attacked” by 2 corsairs] and the Skill Trainers showing us their tricks, but in GW2 we just happen to poke some wolfs long enough with a stick that we know, out of a sudden, how to summon a banner, a magic sword or build a turret?

I know that I’m fetching pretty far, but maybe the answer to why there is no lore behind becoming elite specs is simply that there is no lore behind picking up skills at all? You get enough HPs and a free slot? Get a skill. You got even more HPs? Train a trait. By doing effectively nothing apart from standing still for 5 secs and staring without focus (if the game was real), you become more potent and know how to build a rifle turret by simply wanting to do so. Wow. For me as RL engineer, that would be an awesome skill

Back to topic, I doubt that there will be any elite spec lore implemented on the existing ones. For the future ones, I still have some slim hope. But I guess we’ll see.
On the other hand, though, if there was lore to explain everything, there would be no such interesting lore discussion threads and we would all be wondering if asura and charr have romantic relations. (Looking into our world where people have the right to love objects, I am pretty sure that nothing is impossible in Tyria. Just think about them Romant-o-trons with their whirling body parts!)

Gw2 originally DID have a system that relied on learning abilities from trainers, there were even tiers for abilities (mind stab level 1, mind stab level 2 etc) so it was planned, but ultimately it fell through. I’m guessing they provided a simpler experience aimed at more casual players and it does make the gameplay easier to get into. Suddenly learning how to build turrets and stuff is a case where mechanics trump lore for the ease of use. Otherwise there’d be either an unbearably long stretch of time where you’re sitting there building a turret or carrying around a turret that you built and be unable to do things. Its exactly like heavy armour. Putting on full plate in real life takes about a half hour if the person wearing it has two other people to help strap down every piece of armour and help fix it in place. There are places where realism needs to be set to the side because it improves the gameplay if you do, and being able to exchange 17 armours that you wear consecutively is part of that (this being fashion wars 2 and all). So learning skills takes that path too.

As for the lore of professions, I definitely think the game NEEDS lore for professions and elite specs, present and future ones too (and proper lore not her der fireballs).

There’s a difference between getting every piece of lore established for us in a wiki and gaining profession lore that can actually help develop the current story and future lore,that’s not related to the elder dragons. I agree that we shouldn’t be spoon fed every piece of even partially related lore to gw2, but providing at least SOMETHING related to professions and,elite specs lorewise wouldn’t hurt the mystery.