Guild Wars 2

First of all I know something to do with the Elder Dragons means that you can no longer travel from Tyria to Cantha or Elona. However:

(1) Why do the Elder Dragons mean you can’t go to Cantha to Elona from Tyria
(2) What is happening IN Cantha and Elona? Have they been destroyed by the Elder Dragons or are they still intact?

1 — There is a deep sea dragon eating all the ships.

2 — No one in Tyria knows, because there is a deep sea dragon eating all the ships.

Bubbles is kind of a jerk, you know?

1) Sea passage was cut off by Zhaitan. While he’s dead now, it would appear that the nations of Tyria feel it’s more important to worry about home front issues than re-opening communications with an isolationist nation (Cantha) and a dictatorship (Elona).

Elona is also blocked off by land via the Desolation, formerly Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik.

With the DSD’s spread, it is likely also blockading sea travel out of Tyria – but this is still speculative, as we do not know the DSD’s location or its territory’s expanses.

2) Last we heard of Cantha was when Zhaitan rose (100 years ago). As of then, they had gone mostly isolationist – and had been for a few decades by then – only allowing trade to come in and go. Non-races were exiled or butchered by all accounts, with the last to leave being the tengu who left sometime after Zhaitan’s rise, but they have not shared information about Cantha’s state, nor do we have a specific time in which they fled (though putting together the math indicates within the past 70 years).

During Festival of the Four Winds, it was heavily hinted that the Zephyrites had just visited Cantha, but they would not give specifics – only that the land they visited was beautiful. So if that was indeed Cantha, which seems likely given the jade statue, then Cantha has fared well in the past century.

Last we heard of Elona would have been 50 years ago during the final refugee escape from there. As of then, Joko was still in rule, hunting down Sunspears and ruling with a somewhat iron fist – if people kept giving him tribute he’d leave them be otherwise he’d crack down and use them to expand his undead army. They’ve been fighting with Zhaitan’s risen on the northern Elonian borders, but that situation is unknown as of Zhaitan’s death.

My best guesses for the DSD’s placement would hint that it might be assaulting Cantha and/or Elona’s coasts, and people surmise that Kralkatorrik fled toward Elona (though it could have fled eastward – north of Tyria and south of eastern charr lands). But nothing has indicates that either is doing worse for wear.

I’m pretty sure that the DSD is in Cantha. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say that the dragon empire might delusionaly worship a sea dragon. On top of that, Serpent like dragons like Kuunavang are known to exist in Cantha. There is also a Serpent Dragon statue of unknown origin in the harbor of Kaineng city. The dragons have been known to take a stone like state while they sleep and I wouldn’t be surprised if the magic released during the killing of Shiro Tagachi began the process of awakening the DSD bringing its minions (possibly Kuunavang) into play during the events of Guild wars Factions. With the DSD sucking up all of the magic, the jade sea would return to being water and new life sprouting in the Echovald forest (which is in line with what little we know of cantha at this point)

Heres a picture of that statue in the harbor~
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6eh_jGdrB0bNGtiTzdESzlBd2s/view?usp=sharing

The DSD awoke at the deepest part of the seas, so it’s unlikely he woke up near Cantha – let alone in it. Nor did it awake between Cantha and Elona, as we have lore stating that part of the Clashing Seas (the sea between Tyria/Elona and Cantha) is full of high reefs (Nightfall manuals state this as where corsairs love to hide outside of Elona).

Cantha is the Empire of the Dragon because of the Celestial Dragon, formerly called Tahmu, who is an elevated human soul like the other celestials.

Kuunavang had no relation to water, but instead her relation is to stars. Plus, she was never hibernating per Factions’ lore – she’s been around for eons, but ever since being altered by Shiro (when is unclear whether during Factions or during Jade Wind) she hid within the Harvest Temple.

And the Elder Dragons don’t take a stone-like state while asleep. I think you’re mistaking the fact that they sleep so long that stone, dirt, and vegetation covers them.

The image you link is just a lighthouse – nothing more, nothing less, and existed in lore long before the Elder Dragons did.

Regarding the DSD’s location, I’ve actually been gathering lore to figure it out and I have a rough estimation for not only the DSD’s current territory, but the location of where quaggan, karka, krait, and largos live(d). I should finish up that map diagram and make a thread on it…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The DSD awoke at the deepest part of the seas, so it’s unlikely he woke up near Cantha – let alone in it. Nor did it awake between Cantha and Elona, as we have lore stating that part of the Clashing Seas (the sea between Tyria/Elona and Cantha) is full of high reefs (Nightfall manuals state this as where corsairs love to hide outside of Elona).

Cantha is the Empire of the Dragon because of the Celestial Dragon, formerly called Tahmu, who is an elevated human soul like the other celestials.

Kuunavang had no relation to water, but instead her relation is to stars. Plus, she was never hibernating per Factions’ lore – she’s been around for eons, but ever since being altered by Shiro (when is unclear whether during Factions or during Jade Wind) she hid within the Harvest Temple.

And the Elder Dragons don’t take a stone-like state while asleep. I think you’re mistaking the fact that they sleep so long that stone, dirt, and vegetation covers them.

The image you link is just a lighthouse – nothing more, nothing less, and existed in lore long before the Elder Dragons did.

Regarding the DSD’s location, I’ve actually been gathering lore to figure it out and I have a rough estimation for not only the DSD’s current territory, but the location of where quaggan, karka, krait, and largos live(d). I should finish up that map diagram and make a thread on it…

I thought the quaggan kame from the north like the Koda.

BrotherBelial.3094:

I thought the quaggan kame from the north like the Koda.

There are two different sub-types of quaggan. The darker ones you see in the Shiverpeaks came from the same region as the kodan. The more common lighter ones came from the same region as the krait, and presumably largos- although there’s suggestion that there’re largos in the north as well.

Not quite the same region as the krait so much as the same direction. By the lore we have, the krait were the ones who forced the quaggan out of their homeland who in turn were forced out by the DSD.

It’s kind of like a chain by all appearances.

First the krait were kicked out. Then the quaggan. Then the karka. And the largos are currently facing the brunt but holding.

Syionide.3705:

Heres a picture of that statue in the harbor~
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6eh_jGdrB0bNGtiTzdESzlBd2s/view?usp=sharing

It’s a lighthouse. IIRC, you can find three total, all of which are perfectly identical.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Cantha is the Empire of the Dragon because of the Celestial Dragon, formerly called Tahmu, who is an elevated human soul like the other celestials.

Not stated anywhere, and in fact, it’s still a controversial question when actually Tahmu lived: she may have been after the first Dragon Festival and Tahmu tapped into the power of the same Celestial Dragon that drops the celestial charges every Dragon Festival. This would mean that there are technically two Celestial Dragons (the original one and Tahmu), but if Tahmu’s power is derived from the first, it would make sense that she would essentially become its representative.

Alternatively, of course, the naga attack could have happened in the distant past, before the peace between naga and humans was brokered, or the attackers could have actually been krait. Unless there’s something I’ve missed or forgotten, we don’t know. Either way, the name seems to come because the Canthans named their empire after the most awesome creatures in the area, and the fact that the dragons were mostly reasonably friendly until the Jade Wind probably helped.

That said, the ultimate source of that power is unknown. The All implies that the theory of an Elder Dragon of Stars is defunct, but there are a number of other possibilities. We’ve seen power associated with the gods manifesting in dragon shapes before (the Facets in EOTN… and if the event happened in the pre-imperial era, the gods were still around and intervening in person), or it could have been an intervention by Kuunavang or even Glint.

Either way, though, the name isn’t directly connected to the DSD – none of the Canthan dragons seem to be linked to what we know of the DSD.

My suspicion is that there may be a connection between the presence of a lot of smaller dragons there and the Elder Dragons not having a strong presence there – along the lines of Cantha being where dragons first arose and the population of lesser dragons there keeping the magic levels stable, and the dragons that grew to become Elder Dragons were the ones that got away from the others and had the opportunity to feast on other magic sources without competition. This suspicion does have a few holes in it, but not, I think, ones that cannot be resolved.

Semantics, drax. :P

Point remains: there are many far more obvious reasons for the empire’s draconic theme than ‘omg they worship Elder Dragons’ which couldn’t be further from the truth.

And there’s nothing to say that Tahmu isn’t the Celestial Dragon, given that she’s outright called the Celestial Dragon.

I think we would all agree that it is at least possible that DSD has influence on Canthan shores and is consuming the magic in the jade sea and Echovald forest causing them to revert to their pre jade wind states. Kuunavang is a salt spray dragon, usually found in the jade sea but they still have an affiliation with water, we don’t know where they came from, they could possibly be like glint, awake, friendly to humans, and left over from the previous awakening.

I don’t know of any other identical statues to the picture and how are you so sure that its a light house?

Syionide.3705:

I think we would all agree that it is at least possible that DSD has influence on Canthan shores and is consuming the magic in the jade sea and Echovald forest causing them to revert to their pre jade wind states.

However, this isn’t true. We’ve seen a semi-current world map that shows the jade sea as solid.

If the Jade sea was reverting, the Zephryites wouldn’t have had that nice jade statue either. I don’t see the DSD having anything to do with the forest or the jade sea really. Both are isolated from the main oceans :P

stop crushing my dreams Kal, i just want to go to cantha

Syionide.3705:

stop crushing my dreams Kal, i just want to go to cantha

I’d love to as well. But we’d need a good reason/new minded ruler to allow players inside much.

Could Anet do something with the story like we found and breifly fought the deep sea dragon and washed up on the shores of cantha?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Semantics, drax. :P

Point remains: there are many far more obvious reasons for the empire’s draconic theme than ‘omg they worship Elder Dragons’ which couldn’t be further from the truth.

And there’s nothing to say that Tahmu isn’t the Celestial Dragon, given that she’s outright called the Celestial Dragon.

And when was Tahmu’s time? If it was after the Jade Wind (when naga were hostile), she couldn’t have been the Celestial Dragon of the Dragon Festival. If it was pre-imperial, then the magic to do what is described simply wasn’t available without help from something. If it happened between the gift of magic and the shattering of the Bloodstones, then we would surely have heard about it.

It’s entirely plausible that it happened in the pre-imperial era, Tahmu got the power through the intervention of one of the gods, some other sympathetic figure, or having gained access to some source of magical power, and afterwards the gods made her the patron of Cantha… and that the Empire of the Dragon was named in her honour. However, these are details that we don’t have, and given how hard both of us have been fighting to get others to stop posting their theories in a way that implies they’re fact, we should also both be extra careful that we avoid doing so ourselves.

Certainly, though, there is no need to invoke “they worship an Elder Dragon” for why it’s the Empire of the Dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Semantics, drax. :P

Semantics… or pragmatics? :P

Kalavier.1097:

Syionide.3705:

I think we would all agree that it is at least possible that DSD has influence on Canthan shores and is consuming the magic in the jade sea and Echovald forest causing them to revert to their pre jade wind states.

However, this isn’t true. We’ve seen a semi-current world map that shows the jade sea as solid.

That isn’t reliable evidence though. When Dry Top and Silverwastes were revealed they had different a lot from their GW1 equavalents (explainable sure) but it also differed from the unexplored world map. ANet explained it by say that the parts of the map that aren’t explorable are simply best approximations from what info was available and might not be remotely accurate anymore.

Syionide.3705:

I think we would all agree that it is at least possible that DSD has influence on Canthan shores and is consuming the magic in the jade sea and Echovald forest causing them to revert to their pre jade wind states. Kuunavang is a salt spray dragon, usually found in the jade sea but they still have an affiliation with water, we don’t know where they came from, they could possibly be like glint, awake, friendly to humans, and left over from the previous awakening.

Nothing would argue that the Jade Sea or Echovald Forest are reverting due to magic being drained rather than the fact that 200 years had passed since they were turned to stone (by the time the rumors of reverting began). Furthermore, they began to revert – seemingly – in GW1’s time which would be at least 50 years prior to the DSD waking up far away from Cantha, let alone reaching near there.

As said, current world maps which shows an altered Canthan coastline shows no indication of the Jade Sea being liquified yet, indicating that the rumors of their melting back during EotN and WoC were just that – rumors. It’s more likely that after 200 years new plantlife finally began to sprout in the Echovald, and the Jade Wind didn’t turn the entire Jade Sea into solid but only the surface few miles (we don’t know how deep the water is).

And then there’s the fact that jade still seems to exist in Cantha per the Zephyrites having a jade statue of a fish from a land that is heavily hinted to be Cantha – a prosperous and “culturally colorful ports of call” (not a description I’d give to a land under siege by dragon minions from within).

Kuunavang may be a powerful Saltspray Dragon, but all Saltspray Dragons utilize air magic and fire magic. Kuunavang herself utilizes the same plus celestial skills. Aside from their habitat being the Jade Sea, there’s nothing to link them to water – and the DSD’s minions have been stated to be tentacled creatures, not water creatures. This would place it more likely that the Oni (and by extension, Kanaxai) are more likely related to the DSD than Kuunavang and the Saltspray Dragons.

Syionide.3705:

I don’t know of any other identical statues to the picture and how are you so sure that its a light house?

They’re only located outside of harbors, constantly spewing fire. Concept art for them is literally titled ‘dragon lighthouse’.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dragon_lighthouse

draxynnic.3719:

And when was Tahmu’s time? If it was after the Jade Wind (when naga were hostile), she couldn’t have been the Celestial Dragon of the Dragon Festival. If it was pre-imperial, then the magic to do what is described simply wasn’t available without help from something. If it happened between the gift of magic and the shattering of the Bloodstones, then we would surely have heard about it.

The Celestial Pig, originally Chong, is explicitly stated to be a human from pre-Canthan days that was elevated by the gods. Presuming that the tale hasn’t been spun out of proportion by time and retelling, then the other celestials likely ascended in a similar manner – pre-Gift of Magic capabilities.

Truth be told, nothing really says Tahmu was Canthan.

There is no mention of more than two Celestial Dragons, and five celestials are given human names.

It’s also worth mentioning that the Rockhides are air/earth. Dragon Moss are water, but they’re classified as plants… if they’re connected to an Elder Dragon, it’s more likely to be Mordremoth.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

And when was Tahmu’s time? If it was after the Jade Wind (when naga were hostile), she couldn’t have been the Celestial Dragon of the Dragon Festival. If it was pre-imperial, then the magic to do what is described simply wasn’t available without help from something. If it happened between the gift of magic and the shattering of the Bloodstones, then we would surely have heard about it.

The Celestial Pig, originally Chong, is explicitly stated to be a human from pre-Canthan days that was elevated by the gods. Presuming that the tale hasn’t been spun out of proportion by time and retelling, then the other celestials likely ascended in a similar manner – pre-Gift of Magic capabilities.

Truth be told, nothing really says Tahmu was Canthan.

There is no mention of more than two Celestial Dragons, and five celestials are given human names.

On the other hand, it’s strange to imagine that the kirin was the symbol of corruption before the kirin were corrupted by the Jade Winds. While tests of Weh No Su have existed since the Exodus, I think there was some indication that the location of the test has moved, and thereby the nature has possibly changed as well.

Still, placing the event before the gift of magic reiterates the question: where did Tahmu get the power that manifested in a dragon in the first place? At that point, all magic available to humans was magic channeled from the Mists in the style of ritualists and revenants – which is to say, power that in most cases ultimately comes from invoking a being in the Mists. So even if all of the Celestial Dragon references from Canthans are intended to refer to Tahmu, the question remains… who was Tahmu’s benefactor? Was she lent power by a Tyrian entity that had its own magic before the unlocking of the stone of the Seers, or did she use ritualism to contact a being in the Mists, and in either case, where did it come from?

It’s outright stated that the Oracle moves around frequently – that was the entire point of the Finding the Oracle quest just before Nahpui Quarter mission. And where the Oracle goes, the trials of Weh no Su lie.

As for its age, the process of Weh no Su is doubtlessly ancient as it’s just another method of Ascension (per An Empire Divided they’re literally the same end result).

We don’t have the age for any celestial, so it would be without curiosity for some to be ancient and others to be relatively new.

As for where Tahmu got her magic… don’t take the concept of the world completely lacking magic so sure cut. Cliffside Fractal is about the time when humanity was freshly new on the world of Tyria – yet the humans there have very clear magic (particularly the Archdiviner and Acolytes who utilize necromancer-like spells).

Elona is currently under rule by Palawa Joko, and the crystal dessert is where kralkatorrik is allegedly hanging out. The only people with access TO and from elona at this point are the order of whispers…but nobody knows how.

It’s also that Palawa joko dammed the river elon, so you can’t get there by boat, and his army of undead was fighting zhaitan’s at the border, but who knows if that’s still happening.

I suspect Elona is still in a state of chaos but probably due more towards their near constant civil war with Palawa at this point. (maybe we’ll get to liberate them?)

Cantha is an isolationist area now, not only did bubbles cut off most of the trade routes and zhaitan also made it difficult to get there, but I think Cantha cut off everything including trade with the other continents, or at least the continents that are North of them (we know Doern Valesquez is from neither Tyria, Cantha, nor Elona.)

personally….I’d rather see the exploration/re-opening of Cantha and the liberation of Elona as storylines above just fighting more elder dragons as the MAIN bad guy. maybe living world stuff.

maybe one day.

sincerely,
wanting to go to the land of the golden sun

vanderwolf.7084:

The only people with access TO and from elona at this point are the order of whispers…but nobody knows how.

Actually there’s rumors that they travel through the realm of torment from the chantry in elona.
A liberation story line for elona would be cool, we go after kralkatorrik and while were there we seal palawa joko back in his tomb

Where did you see any mention of the Realm of Torment for how the OoW travels to Tyria and Elona?

AFAIK, the only mention of the Realm of Torment in GW2’s context is as a swear.

I read it somewhere maybe in the durmond priory basement, but in searching for it i came across this…

“The Apostate says one thing that is especially troubling… “Should the energies become imbalanced, the world will tilt and all beings will fall off it into the void.” It’s probably a metaphor."
-The Map of the All

Could killing the dragons start a new night fall?

EDIT: this is a clarification of the quote, it is in relation to the eternal alchemy and killing the dragons.

Nightfall was the prophecy (and event) that marked the return of Abaddon, so there won’t be a new nightfall. :P

The only book in the Priory basement which mentions the Realm of Torment, according to the wiki, is Shiro Tagachi’s Biography.

It may be possible that they enter the realm of torment in elona and exit via the door of komalie. with the order stealing magical secrets they could figure out how to open and close it and use it for transportation. The reputation of being “inhospitable” would keep people away, it would be the perfect cover.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s outright stated that the Oracle moves around frequently – that was the entire point of the Finding the Oracle quest just before Nahpui Quarter mission. And where the Oracle goes, the trials of Weh no Su lie.

As for its age, the process of Weh no Su is doubtlessly ancient as it’s just another method of Ascension (per An Empire Divided they’re literally the same end result).

We don’t have the age for any celestial, so it would be without curiosity for some to be ancient and others to be relatively new.

As for where Tahmu got her magic… don’t take the concept of the world completely lacking magic so sure cut. Cliffside Fractal is about the time when humanity was freshly new on the world of Tyria – yet the humans there have very clear magic (particularly the Archdiviner and Acolytes who utilize necromancer-like spells).

I thought it was outright stated somewhere, but didn’t remember for sure and didn’t really have the time to go chasing it up…

Regarding the Cliffside Fractal: They did have ritualism back then. It’s also possible that the reason they wanted the giant bound was because they were siphoning magic from the giant for their own use. Or they may have been receiving their powers from worshipping Dhuum. Or… or… or…

(I recognise that the magic they use doesn’t look like ritualistic magic, but remember that the fractals of past events are imperfect reflections: changing the appearance and exact nature of the magic used by the enemies may be one of the imperfections)

You’re correct in that magic did exist back then, but it seems that it generally needed to come from something – as a gift from someone with magical power being the most common source we see (be it one of the gods, a Mist entity, or some other source) although items could also potentially be used (such as the Seer stone itself). However, the impression I get is that there wasn’t a lot of magic just available for a spellcaster to use as there is now, and what Tahmu did is something beyond even the most powerful mortal spellcasters we know in the GW2 era (Jennah came close at Ebonhawke, and possibly what she did was the mesmer equivalent, but apart from that) without the aid of a magical device like a Cauldron. So the question remains… where did the power come from, and is the manifestation of the power she used into the form of a dragon a hint as to who or what she got it from?

I am doubtful of that, drax.

Thrulnn the Lost – while most of his information seems dubious at best – outright states that humans only had elementalism when they arrived on Tyria from boats. This would, comparing to other historical knowledge, refer to the time of 205 BE. Thrulnn called this primitive magic and claims the jotun had other magic at the time (now that part I consider dubious – the jotun having other magic).

But this indicates that at least that long ago there was enough magic for the simpler forms of magic to be used – and seemingly, at least, without being gifted or aided by a higher being.

With Tahmu specifically – she would have been an elementalist to be using fire like in the story, making her a spellcaster theoretically plausible, more so if the Acolytes of Cliffside were using what was then the most advanced magic (which is literally staff 1 necro skill in appearance – something very simple nowadays).

Regarding the grandousness of the capabilities – it reads to me that Tahmu sacrificed herself for this (as two of the other stories end with the subject’s death and the third other ends with her no longer being her old self – each case is a finality). We know that spellcasters can tap into their own life to fuel spells and make them stronger. Guardians in Sea of Sorrows’ final battle did this and died from over-extending themselves to keep the ship safe; Koro Sagewind did this twice, the first time summoning an illusion the size of the Eye of the North and going blind for a week, the second time summoning an entire army (very akin to Kitah) which eventually cost her life later that day.

If it cost her life that moment, and elementalism was already available to some, then I don’t see why a grand spell couldn’t have been performed.

Lets get back on the subject of what lore could bring us to elona or cantha, Elona seems obvious, Kralkatorrik would be the dragon we go after, we encounter some of palawas forces in the crystyal desert and the order of whispers (maybe via living story events) brings us into elona after we beat kralkatorrik to seal palawa joko back in his tomb.

Cantha is a bit more difficult because of the lack of a dragon, however there could still be Luxon clans roaming the seas after Emperor Usoku took over the Luzons and Kurzicks. This could be the case regardless of weather or not the jade sea has liquified. Maybe they encounter the DSD and make a new dragon clan like the sons of Svanir worship Jormag. They could wash up on the shore of Istan or Tyria and lead us to Cantha to defeat DSD and help liberate the Kurzicks and Luzons (asuming there would be a rebelion, and considering how much kurzicks and luzons hated each other its not hard to imagine how much they must hate canthans after the take over) from canthan rule via living story?

You’re right: Thruln is a dubious source.

However, we do have sources of humans having magic of the like that the charr had not seen before during the founding of Ascalon, circa 100BE (I know we have a more accurate date, but looking it up is more effort than it’s worth). This indicates that other magic existed at some level… however, the same sources say that human magic back then WAS sourced from the gods.

Similarly, the asura had some magic back then.

However, it was much weaker back then. Koro’s efforts happened while magic was at a GW1 level, and arguably were still less powerful than Tahmu’s fiery dragon that destroyed everything. Even with consuming her own life force, I don’t think a pre-bloodstone-unlocking human would be able to pull that move off without some assistance or artifact.

My point was less how powerful Koro’s abilities were (however, I’d note that Koro did something in 1080 AE that was done in circa 770 AE by Kitah with the exact same outcome – with the advancement of magic over time, one would think Koro to fair better), and more that tapping one’s life force allows great magic at the expense of one’s life.

Life force wouldn’t be regulated by the bloodstones, thus would hold an overall steady amount of magical power to it. The state of the bloodstones – be it pre-bloodstone or post-bloodstone or what-have-you – would be irrelevant as such. Such a feat would always be capable – the only relevance it has is if it’s possible to replicate that ability without tapping one’s life force (such as what Jennah does at the end of Edge of Destiny – petrifying an army and raising a distant dragon illusion).

hmmm dont we have airships now to travel? the sea is blocked or land block by a desert no longer bears weight to why we cant go there now, specially zaitan is dead.

Even assuming that the power is coming out of their life force (as opposed to simply being a case of channeling more power than you’re used to being tiring and dangerous), that does seem to be a limited well.

Essentially, the total power available to someone whose willing to sacrifice their life is A plus B, where A is the magic available through conventional means, and B is the additional power achievable through burning out your life force. While B can be assumed to be constant, the maximum effect that can be achieved is the combination, and A was a lot higher even in 720AE (without making use of stored magical energy, such as an artifact or energy granted by a being with its own innate magic) than before the unlocking of the proto-bloodstone. Considering that fairly powerful effects could be achieved through A, and also considering that most souls don’t actually seem to have that much power in them (yes, powerful things can be done through sacrifices, but that generally involves lots of sacrifices unless you sacrifice something with strong innate magic to begin with… and how is Tahmu going to have gained that strong innate magic in the pre-bloodstone days?), then I’m inclined to say that the self-sacrificing magic used by Koro and some of the heroes of Tahnnakai Temple were using the sacrifice of their life energy to get that last bit of power that they didn’t already have from elsewhere, rather than being a simple case of ‘kill yourself, get a powerful effect’.

We have multiple examples of creatures that outright eat souls in the Guild Wars lore, and consuming a single mortal soul never seemed to give them the ability to wreak disaster. The mursaat were among the most skilled users of magic and were, by the end of Prophecies, terrified of the heroes of prophecy, but they preferred to use the souls to power conventional defenses rather than using some of that energy to generate a magical superweapon. There’s certainly evidence that you can pull off powerful magical effects if you’re willing to die as the price, but I think that those that have done so did it with a powerful contribution coming from ambient magic and other sources as well.

@Lord Hammer Hand: Theoretically, but it depends on many questions.

1) How clear are the skies of Orr – what did happen to those dragons that butchered airships while we were out and about in Malchor’s Leap, Cursed Shore, and Straits of Devastation. The skies were FULL of those dragons during the fight with Zhaitan.

2) How far can an airship fly? They’d have to be able to go from one end of subcontinental Tyria to the other three or four times before even seeing Cantha, let alone reaching there.

3) How dusty is the skies above the Crystal Desert? The sandstorms of the Maguuma Wastes prevented the Pact’s fleet from stationing in Dry Top, so if the Crystal Desert gets similar weather, air passage would be impossible. Unlike the Zephyrite airships.

4) Is the Pact – the sole users of the airships sans the Aetherblades and Lion’s Arch (the latter stealing from the Aetherblades, who in turn stole from the Pact) – willing to send airships out to distant lands that may be hostile?

But overall, it should be plausible, but it’s a manner of ‘is it worth it’. Same, I would imagine, with naval travel to Cantha at this point – with Zhaitan cutting off the sea for so long, no one would know if the DSD is preventing naval access to Cantha or not. Players mentioning such is just our OOC knowledge.

@Draxynnic: One thing you failed to take note of with the creatures that consume souls is the time it takes for digestion to take effect.

Take, for example, Kefkphekt – that scarab monk boss in the Crystal Desert who has a name harder to spell than Kralkatorrik. 200 years ago, an Elonian killed his two daughters when Kehptekft was approaching; he killed them to save them the fate of being eaten alive, only for their souls to be consumed instead. 200 years later, in comes our GW1 heroes who kills Kephtekk and out comes the souls.

In Nightfall, we have a Marognite who consumed souls in the Desolation by promising that if they sacrificed their soul to him their loved ones would be spared (a lie, of course). When he killed him, out came the soul(s).

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Family_Soul

So yes, creatures can consume souls for energy. But it takes centuries for those souls to be digested. That naturally means consuming a single soul would not give the instant ability to wreak disaster.

As to the mursaat – I’d argue overconfidence. They were killing humans my the thousands, why would they suspect that the few unlikely heroes would slip through their grasp?

As to the combining effect – I’d agree. I’d just argue that life force gives more bang than you argue.

At this point, the argument becomes circular though, as we don’t have enough knowledge to argue how much power a soul can provide – we just know that it can provide energy.

Regarding the mursaat: Prophecy. We’re told by an NPC that what the mursaat seem to be most frightened of is us:

Fogard Axemighty

Remember, whatever lies inside the Door of Komalie scares the Mursaat. But all of this, these walls and bunkers, they weren’t built to keep something from getting out of the volcano. They were built to keep someone from getting in. No matter how frightened they are of the creatures behind the Door, they are more frightened of you. That, my friend, makes you about the most dangerous thing in Tyria.

Still, the argument pretty much comes down to what I was trying to point out: We don’t know.

Incidentally, regarding operators of airships: It’s implied in one of the Season 2 dialogues that the Seraph have airships now as well:

Gate Supervisor Karrog Duelfang

The Seraph were moving airships, troops, and supplies here to clear the fort of bandits, but it’s already been abandoned. Something else scared them off first.

The airships could have been operated by Pact crews, but it suggests that the technology has spread.

Until I see it, I’m going to argue typo and they meant “Pact” instead of “Seraph”. The Pact were moving to secure Fort Vandal, according to the generically named vigil-pact soldier there.

We know the Seraph was active in the area, though, and I doubt they were doing stuff just south of Fort Vandal without having a plan for it. Joint operation is certainly likely, but I’m not inclined to assume it’s a typo, particularly since we also see a few Seraph in and around Fort Vandal.

I wish one day we can return to Cantha. It is my favorite place in GW1. There is also some mystery yet unsolved about Cantha left from GW1 such as what is Kanaxai.

I can’t help but think Kanaxai may have been a minion of the Deep Sea Elder Dragon since it would suit a theme for the Deep Sea Elder Dragon, despite currently we do not know the theme of the Deep Sea Elder Dragon, being a Elder Dragon of Nightmares since Deep Sea Dragon is hidden in the Deepest Darkest part of the Sea and there are mention Deep Sea’s minions are beings of horrors.

After all Nightmares are often created in the Dark.

Although the DSD awoke in the deepest depths of the waters, it is Zhaitan that is tied with Shadow and thus darkness. And he had that plot of attacking the PC’s fear (though it isn’t very clear if Zhaitan actively did such or if it was mere coincidence).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Although the DSD awoke in the deepest depths of the waters, it is Zhaitan that is tied with Shadow and thus darkness. And he had that plot of attacking the PC’s fear (though it isn’t very clear if Zhaitan actively did such or if it was mere coincidence).

Zhaitan was not about Nightmare but more about Death. He follow the theme of Death using their fear of death, fighting love ones who have died, and talking about death being the source of being reunited with loved ones.

Zhaitan appears to have a belief that death is the end all and be all answer as he uses his minions to represent what he says.

Attacking the Player’s fear was only a attack strategy as a mean of psychological warfare and a one time opportunity to break the Player’s character mentally.

Mordremoth, another example, follows the Nature theme being how uncontrollable it is. His minions are all pure plants but looking at them shows the aspect of how Nature is taking over. You’ll see dog remains being taken by plants, a Charr looking creature that has been completely covered in wood, and those Mordremoth things that appear to be Humanoids. Mordy appears to use the dead bodies of living beings and use plants to take over those bodies to follow his Nature theme.

During Hidden Arcana in Season 2 it is stated that each Elder Dragon has 2 spheres of power. Mordremoth is plant and mind. Zhaitan is death and shadow.

So yes, Zhaitan was about death and that was far more prominent. But he also has a theme of shadow and darkness – much like how Mordremoth is very clearly about plants, but he also has a theme of mind/mentality that’s a bit more subliminal.

The dialogue:

Magister Ela Makkay: In conclusion, let’s recap. The five confirmed dragons are Kralkatorrik, Jormag, Primordus, Mordemoth, and Zhaitan.
Magister Ela Makkay: We believe there is another deep in the oceans, but its entry in the Scroll of the Five True Gods is partially missing.
Magister Ela Makkay: The scroll, written in ancient times, has a section dedicated to the Elder Dragons, but it came to us in bad shape.
Magister Ela Makkay: It is written in an ancient form of old Krytan. We’re still attempting to decipher the damaged portions.
Magister Ela Makkay: Each dragon has two spheres of influence. For Mordremoth, that’s mind and plants. Zhaitan ruled shadow and death.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana#At_the_Durmand_Priory

Very first things you hear when you enter the Durmand Priory story instance.

By observations of similar themes using Mordremoth and Zhaitan’s spheres as a basis, we can guess that Kralkatorrik is Crystal and Air (though some argue chaos for one of them), and Jormag to be Ice and Soul/Spirit; Primordus is harder to argue, but fire certainly seems to be one sphere (some argue earth is the second, but that’s like saying Zhaitan’s two spheres is death and corpses – all things Zhaitan corrupt holds a theme of death/decay, like all things Mordremoth seems to corrupt holds a theme of plants/fungi, but corpses is what Zhaitan primarily corrupts; everything Primordus corrupts has this far held a theme of fire, but stone is what he seems to primarily corrupt).

Some would say that the first sphere for the DSD is water, but for both Zhaitan and Mordremoth their first sphere is not what they corrupt (which for the DSD is water) but what form their corruption takes (thus making DSD’s first sphere “tentacles” from what limited information we have); the second sphere is a lot more complicated to figure out how they tie in, unfortunately, so it’s downright impossible to guess for the near-no-information DSD.

And though subliminal, it’s actually easy to see the themes of darkness in Zhaitan if you look closely enough. Some simple examples:

• Risen spawn from clouds of darkness.
• Zhaitan’s corruption of land takes form of black fog/smoke rising from the ground.
• Orr is in perpetual darkness from continuous clouds (this is shared with Kralkatorrik’s Dragonbrand – the difference is that the Dragonbrand has a perpetual thunderstorm (nicknamed the Brandstorm), while Orr is just dark clouds with putrid smells and rain).
• Zhaitan’s spells when encountered are wells of darkness (similar to necromancer wells but far more black in them)
• When traveling to Orr in the PS before the invasion – be it via the mirror in the sylvari PS or via the Dream vision – both story step names are named after darkness: A Vision of Darkness and A Light in the Darkness.

Zhaitan does use darkness which relate more to his theme of death but that does not mean he is a being of Nightmares. After all Necromancy is commonly related to Darkness and with Zhaitan being a Giant Necromancer Dragon it would be suited for him to use Darkness Magics like any other Necromancer.

The Name for Personal story are mostly just names to describe the situation being how A Vision of Darkness is the Darkest Hour of Tyria where the Light of Hope is lost with the A Light in the Darkness representing how the Player character being a Light of Hope in this Darkest hour where people have given up on hope.

Also a being of Nightmare does not need to be related to Darkness. A being of Nightmare can take on many forms but the concept of Nightmare = darkness is just a concept more commonly used but still Nightmares can take on other forms and other elements.

Current lore of DSD describes the DSD’s minons as beings of Horrors which would fit more into the Nightmare theme. While the lore describe one of the minions being some kind of Tentecle Horror, the other minions of DSD is described to be Horror look.

We’ll get more info on DSD theme once we finally get to see a Minion of DSD since the only DSD minion we know about was last known to be in Inquest captivity.

Personally, I think it’s an interesting speculation:

As an observation, while Zhaitan is focused on shadow, Mordremoth’s champion has been the Shadow of the Dragon up until the end of Season 2, and at the end the Shadow uses ‘Smothering Shadows’ as a defence against Divine Fire. It’s possible that the SotD was able to do this because it had absorbed some of the power released from Zhaitan (it would make sense if it turned out that the dragon that claimed Orr happened to be the only one that had a means of quenching Divine Fire…), but it does indicate that Mordremoth’s servants at least are willing to dabble into the areas of other Elder Dragons.

I could see an Elder Dragon of the Depths being a dragon that corrupts the living through fear, nightmares, and similar themes. In fact, one possibility, given that Abaddon was focused on knowledge and the ocean, is that Abaddon did to the Deep Sea Dragon what Kormir would later do with Abaddon: he might have investigated the Deep Sea Dragon, been corrupted (not to the point of becoming a minion, but enough to destabilise his sanity), eventually leading to the events we all know. If the other gods found out that Abaddon’s fall was caused in part by contact with a dragon, that might explain why the rest hightailed it out of here.

EdwinLi.1284:

Zhaitan does use darkness which relate more to his theme of death but that does not mean he is a being of Nightmares.

You related the DSD to nightmare because of its potential ties to darkness. I quote you: “being a Elder Dragon of Nightmares since Deep Sea Dragon is hidden in the Deepest Darkest part of the Sea” and “After all Nightmares are often created in the Dark.”

Zhaitan is the elder dragon of darkness, thus by your argument he becomes nightmares.

And he does attack fears – not just of the PC but others as well.

EdwinLi.1284:

After all Necromancy is commonly related to Darkness and with Zhaitan being a Giant Necromancer Dragon it would be suited for him to use Darkness Magics like any other Necromancer.

Technically what Zhaitan utilizes is not necromancy – it’s just very thematically similar. Heck, most of his minions aren’t necromancers either, but tend to be elementalists and illusion-based mesmers.

Also, your argument would again tie Zhaitan to nightmares and fear as necromancy heavily utilize those.

EdwinLi.1284:

The Name for Personal story are mostly just names to describe the situation being how A Vision of Darkness is the Darkest Hour of Tyria where the Light of Hope is lost with the A Light in the Darkness representing how the Player character being a Light of Hope in this Darkest hour where people have given up on hope.

Being transported to Orr via a mirror and saving someone who was transported to Orr via a mirror earlier is “the Darkest Hour of Tyria” how?

You be stretching now.

EdwinLi.1284:

Also a being of Nightmare does not need to be related to Darkness. A being of Nightmare can take on many forms but the concept of Nightmare = darkness is just a concept more commonly used but still Nightmares can take on other forms and other elements.

I’m not the one who made the analogy, you did.

EdwinLi.1284:

Current lore of DSD describes the DSD’s minons as beings of Horrors which would fit more into the Nightmare theme. While the lore describe one of the minions being some kind of Tentecle Horror, the other minions of DSD is described to be Horror look.

All elder dragon creatures are described as horrors and terrifying monsters in The Movement of the World so that’s not a very strong stance to go by.

I’m not talking about Darkness as a element like fire, water, earth, and lightning. I’m talking about appearance related theme. Like the monsters hiding in the Dark or in every cornor of your eyes, in the attics, or hiding in the night waiting while people ignore them despite knowing they’re there because they don’t want to believe they’re there.

For example, Kanaxai is a being of The Deep found in the deepest darkest part of the Jade Sea yet he is covered in Darkness on half his body but does not look like a being of the Sea.

However, for now let just agree to disagree since we have different views and definition of things. Besides Anet will eventually reveal the theme of DSD’s minions anyways but that part I’m more concerned with when since so far Anet has avoided getting DSD’s minions involved in the current Lands we can enter in Tyria with the only known DSD’s minion in Tyria is in Inquest captivity.

Worst case Anet won’t reveal DSD and DSD’s minions untill all other Elder Dragons are defeated saving DSD as the final ED since he been hiding in the Unending Ocean all this time building his army to be the largest of the Elder Dragons.

Middle case, Anet allows us to enter a Inquest base holding a minion of the DSD and we finally get to see what the DSD’s minions look like in HoT storyling or a Season Storyline.

Best case, Anet decideds to make Bubbles the next Elder Dragon we fight since lore wise DSD would be the ED the pact is least prepared for due to having hardly or no information about DSD and DSD’s minions compared to the other ED. Of course they may lead to another war in Lion’s Arch while every area with water randomly spawn DSD’s minion events.

So im back, I’ve been looking for pathways between Elona and Tyria via the domain of anguish, and I’ve found it. The gate of anguish has a portal leading directly to the Chantry of secrets in Elona. https://i.gyazo.com/bd4f71c4c99780f0b51a398c5c3f1556.jpg
The explorable area accessible from the gate of anguish is the foundry of failed creations. Within the foundry of failed creations is the door of Komalie, we know from the original guild wars campaign that the door of Komalie exits at the ring of fire islands. It is reasonable to assume that this is the order’s means of transit between Elona and Tyria. https://i.gyazo.com/125f4ce6dd17e1fe406072c8614ec798.png

A crazy hypothesis but what if Cantha’s Emperor made a secet deal with the DSD which has allowed them to remain unharmed by the DSD for all these years? While keeping this deal a secret from the citizens of Cantha.

We know the Elder Dragons are not so mindless as others may think since each ED can think, strategies, and so on. ED, like Jormag, even bargain with people as their way to lure them to their side mostly promises of power in certain forms.

If DSD is has territory in Cantha, it is rather strange that it remained unharmed for all these years considering how the Zephyr describe the place being so beautiful.

But nothing even indicates that the DSD would have territory in or around Cantha. There is, quite literally, NOTHING that indicates such.